Taupo=BAD

[CashKing]

Taupo airport's black star rating - indicating major safety concerns by operators - is not the result of a full risk assessment and is not accurate, according to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).
The black star, the worst possible rating issued by the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA), categorised airport safety at Taupo as "critically deficient".
The federation has imposed 11 special operating procedures for pilots flying into Taupo.
The lack of air traffic control at the airport was the greatest concern, the organisation said.
However, not all local pilots were spoken to as part of the study, CAA director John Jones said today.
"The concern I have is that if you're going to do a risk assessment, you must do a proper one," he told National Radio. "So the black star thing is not necessarily that accurate."
There was no doubt that Taupo airport was a safe environment to operate in, he said.
New Zealand Airline Pilots Association spokesman Glen Kenny described Taupo as the busiest parachute aerodrome in the southern hemisphere.
It was great for Taupo's tourism industry but it had got to the point where commercial pilots were "getting extremely nervous" when flying in and out of Taupo, he said.
"Air traffic control would take away those concerns."
Mr Jones said that when commercial flights were taking off and landing at the airport, all skydiving activities stopped.
This was one of the conditions which skydiving operators had agreed to under a memorandum of understanding with the airport.
However, local aircraft operators have rubbished claims that the airport is unsafe, labelling ALPA's comments as "scaremongering".
The Taupo Airport Users Group, which claims to represent 95 per cent of operators at or into Taupo, said the union was recycling old unsubstantiated claims.
It was "ludicrous to suggest that the pilots and owners of 23 different organisations, all of whom require CAA certificates, would collectively and knowingly operate into dangerous" conditions, said user group president Toby Clark.
John Funnell, who is also president of the Aviation Industry Association, agreed, saying ALPA had not spoken to most local operators, who had no major concerns.
Aviator Neville Smith, who lives on the airport's perimeter, believed Taupo needed air traffic control services immediately.
A flight information service, a limited form of air traffic control, was the minimum that was needed at Taupo but full air traffic control was the ideal, he told National Radio.
Taupo was a busy airport, with commercial flights operating alongside rescue helicopters, top-dressing planes, and skydivers, he said.
There had been many "near misses" at the airport, including a parachutist who landed very close to a helicopter only a couple of weeks ago. Taupo = BAD
The parachutists were a major user of the airport and really needed to be moved to another site, Mr Smith said.
"Having a skydiving drop-zone on a commercial airfield is bizarre."
He believed the imposition of the "black star" by IFALPA was an appropriate move.
"It's just got to the stage now where something just has to be done," Mr Smith said.

[On speed on profile]

Taupo is a busy and ever more popular tourist destination. It already surpasses Rotovegas for movements and that is because it is a much nicer destination with a clean lake and many more activities. The runway will get lengthened one day to meet the demands of tourism, the aircraft servicing Taupo will get bigger and, it is inevitable that it is going to need control one day so why not implement it while there isnt a huge amount of traffic so that all the irregularities can be ironed out. I think the operators there are just worried about the extra costs but it is only the extra cost of controllers because the infrastucture and procedures are already in place!

Having flown out of there many times, I think Taupo would definately benefit from ATC but unfortunately it is a bit of NIMBYism creeping in from the Taupo based operators.

[flyby_kiwi]

Having operated in and out of Taupo over the years on various op's in various a/c I never had any hassles.
Parachuting stops for all IFR traffic and wayward VFR's, the locals generally know better than to use the crossing grass as this is pretty much the DZ for some parachute ops, the Heli's and ag. a/c are mostly low level so out of the way of most traffic, the part 135 guys know the area and seem to have a level of situational awareness not always seen elsewhere, anthing about 5000AGL is controlled anyway so whose left? Lower level itinerant VFR? Im sure they dont represent a large % of movements but if its a half decent day there will be someone else out (usually the jump op's) who are good at helping them sort things out if there is going to be a problem of some sort.
As has been said before the only way to be 100% safe would be to keep the a/c in the hanger.
I think you would be more likely to have a near death experience going into the likes of Ardmore or Milford than Taupo.

[On speed on profile]

I think you would be more likely to have a near death experience going into the likes of Ardmore or Milford than Taupo.Which is why Ardmore should have control as well. Try going around three times for every one touch and go at Ardmore when you are trying to convert to a multi type. Its a waste of time and money and I would rather have paid a little bit more for the landing fees so that I didnt have to spend so much time and money being messed around by an idiot in a 152 doing solo consolidation that couldnt listen to the radio calls.

Whats the difference between making MBZ calls and a call for clearance into a CTR? The first may be cheaper but the second is definately safer. A bit of common sense would see that it is a worthwhile thing and Taupo ATC would obviously operate in an advantageous way to the current users as they are the ones that pay the most fees. Taupo may be working ok for now as an MBZ but its only going to get busier as the town and toursit attractions blossom. Why not transfer all the tower staff from Rotorua to Taupo. If Rotorua has less movements, and the argument by the Taupo operators is that they are perfectly capable of operating with more movements per year, what is the point of Rotorua having a tower? Commercial a/c operate there and they have TCAS so whats the big deal???

I can comment on Milford as I have never flown in there.

[MOR]

Well call me Mr old-fashioned, but I don't see why any user should have to pay directly for an ATC service. We don't pay directly for a Police force to regulate the roads, it all comes out of general taxation because people realise that it is everyones' interest to have order on the roads. Same should go for ATC, and I well remember the day some CAA rep came along to the aero club to try and convince us that "user pays" was the right way forward. He was wrong then and he's wrong now.

How many of you remember when most airports had a manned tower, and there were no landing or nav fees?

As for AP, it is obvious that John Funnell and his mates just don't want to be regulated. There seems to be an awful lot of local politics going on, but to me it is obvious. If you have that many diverse movements, you need some level of control. Otherwise, it isn't a matter of "if", only "when". Unless, of course, everybody is lying about the number of close calls...

[tinpis]

Usda have deer on the "new" Taupo strip in tins day.

[nike]

Briefly,

1) Taupo is busier than it has ever been and movements are forecast to increase.

2) Assistance from local pilots is great and should not be ignored, but are we reaching the point where this goes from being appreciated to expected?

3) What is(are) the disadvantage(s) of ATC at Taupo? (the plurals are in parenthesis as I suggest that there is only a singular answer)

4) Invulnerability seems overtly apparent in some of these posts.

[BurglarsDog]

From a users perspective, which is perceived to pose the greatest risk;

A Mid Air , or Parachutists dropping in on what appears to be a high number of spinning props and rotors? MBZ / ATC procedures may mitigate some of the risk associated with the first instance but not the second. Commercial Para ops, cloud, wind and sharp spinning edges are not the best of bedmates.:ooh:

BD

[On speed on profile]

There are already problems there. I have heard on more than occasion of the people (one of which was an Air NZ checkin staff memebr) that monitor the MBZ frequency advising (normally foreign pilots) of a rather large Mountain to the north that is going to get in their way very shortly. That is not their job and, it has prevented fatalities.

That mountain got in the way of someone else with tragic consequences recently and, having seen the ATC setup in Hamilton (when i was shown the SSR movements on the ground at AA), a controller watching the flight path of inbound IFR flights with the same equipment would probably have a good chance of preventing that sort of accident again.

I have had to go around (when established in the circuit) before because of muppets not talking on the MBZ (they were trying to find out from Christchurch if the jump planes were dropping when wanting to conduct an IFR approach in VMC conditions instead of monitoring and making standard reporting calls as required!). The Taupo MBZ was and still is a joke. It is a matter of time until the inevitable happens and MOR, sadly I think your last statement has hit the nail on the head.

When it comes down to it, the arguments for Taupo ATC far outway the arguments against so the CAA now need to get the balls to implement it. They also need to get ATC at ardmore! These are two of the busiest and most complicated aerodromes in NZ with all the movements yet ATC is put into other less important places!

[turbolager]

I cant see what all the fuss is about when Ardmore still remains uncontrolled. Taupo is much quieter, and whilst it has a greater mix of aircraft types, at least the locals know where they are and how to use a radio.

And if our ever progressive and visionary CAA could just get off their butts and do something about an ADS-B rollout, we wouldnt be relying on such ancient technology as 'control towers' anyway :ok:

[MOR]

That's the spirit! Let's not correct a wrong whilst a greater wrong exists. Inaction rules, and nothing ever gets better. Worse than the CAA itself...

More to the point, whilst Ardmore might have a lot of traffic, they don't have meatbombers chucking victims in front of moving aircraft or near live helicopters. They also don't have commercial movements.

[Zed-K]

try being on final approach, IMC, no traffic reporting postion on local, or responding to your calls, and yet TCAS showing a target 500 directly below you.... and then ask yourself if you want controlled airspace and a tower in operation

[On speed on profile]

zed-k, If you are approaching from the north, It may well be a glider just under the cloud base but outside the MBZ and not on the mbz frequency. Centennial Park is not far away, slightly east of NDB DME Bravo approach and about 5 miles out (D426).

[Zed-K]

true on speed, but it was simply an example, and not a one off occurance. Personally I never found the meat bombers to be a problem, they co-ordinated well with scheduled traffic, but VFR's were an issue. Not sure if local VFR or people passing through, but a lack of accurate radio calls, I suspect some not even monitoring local freq, some instances of very poor airmanship (landing on the runway while an Eagle flight was finishing landing roll for example) were issues I either experienced or was told about. Numerous reports were filed, and I also suspect many went unreported. These are not problems specific to AP, but given the volume of traffic I guess the risk is that much increased. Until issues like this are greatly reduced, some form of control seems to be the best course of action. It has been interesting to read some of the operators comments in the press. They can dress things up as much as they want, but in these days of user pays, the operators do not wish to bear the burden of funding ATC. It is a cost issue. If all ATC was centrally funded, I am guessing that they would have no objections to a control tower going in.

[mattyj]

Ardmore is not so busy these days..I think Jo Student has finally decided that the cost benifit is just too unfavourable now..in fact it never was that favourable..

..best I go get all the bills out of my letterbox before it falls over:yuk: :yuk:

[6080ft]

On Speed on profile
Which is why Ardmore should have control as well. Try going around three times for every one touch and go at Ardmore when you are trying to convert to a multi type. Its a waste of time and money and I would rather have paid a little bit more for the landing fees so that I didnt have to spend so much time and money being messed around by an idiot in a 152 doing solo consolidation that couldnt listen to the radio calls.


Where you not an idiot doing solo stuff one day? :}
If you think having ATC at AR would reduce the number of go arounds you are sorely mistaken!!! I have been sent around by control many times at Hamilton due to aircraft vacating ahead of me, when I know perfectly well I will be able to get in.
Sure it gets busy at ardmore. But the worst offender is Mr Weekend Warrior coming out once every 2 months to go on a city scienic and bash out a couple of circuits to keep current, whilst dishing out abuse to those who he believes are in the wrong, when he is re joining a right base for 21!

On the Taupo issue - I have never had a problem there and fly in there alot, and have nothing to do with any of the operators on the field there!:ok:

[On speed on profile]

Where you not an idiot doing solo stuff one day? :} Yip, at Taupo. That was a good few years back now though when the place was a little quiet backwater. I am not comparing Ardmore and Taupo. They are different but equally deserving of ATC for their different and special circumstances.
If you think having ATC at AR would reduce the number of go arounds you are sorely mistaken!!! I have been sent around by control many times at Hamilton due to aircraft vacating ahead of me, when I know perfectly well I will be able to get in. When going for my CPL at Waikato, I was doing circuits in a 152 on the crossing grass runway and there was a 727 circuiting on runway 36. I did half a dozen with the 727 filling my side window every time and it was great! The problem with Hamilton isnt the controllers because you have the choice of spacing wider or slowing down to accomodate the A/C in front. If you are told to go around, its because you havent spaced yourself wide enough to allow the landing (and maybe just post solo) A/C in front to vacate. That is just situational awareness. At Ardmore, if you slow down. Someone on the ground will pull out to T/O, if you space out, someone will cut inside you so the only way to get continuity is for someone to deny people entry to the runway and to give landing clearances so pilots know their order.

OSOP

[flyby_kiwi]

At Ardmore, if you slow down. Someone on the ground will pull out to T/O, if you space out, someone will cut inside you

Sounds like the Auckland motorway system :ugh:

[LocoDriver]

Hey there MattyJ,
A lot of the average Jo student population have moved to Hamilton or Palmerston North, because they are learning with an outfit that can charge everything to the student loan or similar.

Jo Student who pays out of their own pocket are alive and well at Ardmore!

Taupo, ahhhhhh yes, the problems seem to come from the pilots trained on the said loan system, have had no experience at real aviation, instructing, charters, meatbombing , scenics etc, but instead are used to the tunnell vision approach, safe and secure under radar control, tower guided approaches, etc,etc.
The day they know what situational awareness is, whilst they fly the aircraft, is the day pink elephants will fly past the window.
These fellows(and fellow-esses) need some practical flying experience before
the 'airline pilot' career.

Safety comes from each and everyone of us involved in aviation, not a select few wanting to be wrapped in cottonwool.

Having said that, the weekend warriors need to be reminded about give way rules on the circuit. especially at Ardmore(as do some instructors!)

:E :E :ok:

[nike]

Are there any comments or published information regarding Taupo operations out there?

i.e. something 'extra' in the VFG?NOTAMs or whatever, stating among other things, "....Taupo is a busy place so be extra vigilant..."

Possibly this could be seen as admitting that Taupo carries a greater risk than other airports and in such the powers-at-be would prefer not to concede such a situation exists?



Safety comes from each and everyone of us involved in aviation, not a select few wanting to be wrapped in cottonwool.
Loco, maybe you could expand on this jewel?

[MOR]

Actually, Locodriver makes a good point. Far too many pilots now have little or no understanding of situational awareness, and yet it is the one thing that will save your butt in the airline world.

Having spent most of my flying career in and out of major airports like Paris CDG, Heathrow, Brussels and Amsterdam, I can tell you that one thing you really need is an acute sense of situational awareness, especially at Paris where the controllers speak french to all the Air France guys, and english to the rest of us. I have had to file several MORs for airproxes whilst flying around Paris, believe me, IFR separation and radar control won't always keep you safe! You need to know where everybody is.

I still feel very naked whenever I operate VFR around NZ, it just makes me very aware of the need to have a good mental picture of the airspace around me.

As far as wrapping anybody in cotton wool, maybe not for neophyte pilots operating out of AR, but at AP it is a different story. There, you have scheduled movements, and those pax want and expect to be wrapped in the deepest possible cotton wool (and so they should be).

Somebody earlier mentioned that there was tower at AP, and what was it there for. Well, it was built a few years ago now, back in the days when the government realised that they had an obligation to provide the tools to make air travel as safe as possible. In the same way that they provide traffic lights and speed cameras, they used to provide an ATC service at all the regional airports. I well remember lounging by the Grumman at Hokitika back in the '80s, about an hour before the single scheduled movement for the day. Suddenly, a fleet of cars arrived, and within ten minutes, the tower and met office were manned, the cafe was in action and the ground handlers had their gear out. Ten minutes after the flight departed, the place was completely empty again!

Now Hokitika doesn't really need that level of activity these days, but Taupo certainly does - that tower should be in use. of course, it is unlikely to happen, as the Swedavia Report ensured that from then on, the deciding factor should be cost and not safety.

I certainly agree with others that is only a matter of time at AP before a serious accident happens. I also believe that if AP had even a FIS, Steve Brown and his pax probably wouldn't have died on Mt Tauhara last year.

[On speed on profile]

Loco,

The point I am trying to make is why not wrap Taupo in cotton wool? It only has to be a 10 mile zone, and it will give some good protection.

Rotorua has ATC yet it has less movements. Why is that? If peoples arguments here stand strong then we should do away with ATC there as well. 737's etc have TCAS, surely thats enough :hmm:

Taupo may be working ok now but its a town growing at a huge rate. When a town grows, so does the infrastructure, roads, shops and Airport. You cant blame the students who arent taught proper S.A. but you can protect people against those without proper SA.

The Taupo operators are probably scared that they wont be able to operate in the same way they do now. If they all got together to work out a plan then it could be to their advantage. One way or another Taupo will get ATC at some point and if they do nothing but fight it, they wont get many concessions when it is implemented.

Dont forget people, there is a witchhunt and public stoning for the CAA now. Rightly or wrongly, that is not the issue here, The CAA is going to make changes that make it look good. IMHO, Taupo ATC is going to be one of those plans!

OSOP

[LocoDriver]

Ahhhhhhhhhh
I thought my post my provoke some thoughts........... political animal
that I am!

My comments re cottonwool and Situational awareness, comes from many years in GA.
As a mere bugsmasher instructor, I have checked quite a few airline pilots returning to GA, and quite frankly, I find they are somewhat lacking in situational awareness, sometimes disturbingly so.
I dont say this this lightly, or trying to be clever, it is pure fact.Having said that, i know several 737/767/747 jocks who have no such problem, because they are involved in GA, and have been all their lives.-some of these are instructors too!, and happen to agree with me 100%.

Taupo years ago had a flight service, (as did Whakatane, Oamaru, Whangarei, Katiaia etc etc) and yes, one day it will need a tower, the way Taupo is growing. (as did Queenstown)

I have no qualms in a PPL or well breifed student going to Taupo, but an
experienced airline pilot years out of GA, I will have second thoughts.
(Until they are brought up to speed)
Taupo is a look-out-the-window, and listen-to-the-radio-airfield.!
The Air NZ link pilots going into Taupo, are familar and experienced, and dont seem to have any problems.

Hey MOR, maybe your 'PING' Button may be handy for Taupo!

Operating at Taupo is different from doing a 10 mile ILS approach under Radar control, there is no comparison, and this needs to be remembered.

Cheers!
:ok:

[haughtney1]

Having operated in and out of Taupo, IFR & last summer (after being away for 5 years VFR, my opinion of the place has gone south in a rather large fashion.

I have no qualms in a PPL or well briefed student going to Taupo, but an
experienced airline pilot years out of GA, I will have second thoughts.
(Until they are brought up to speed)
Taupo is a look-out-the-window, and listen-to-the-radio-airfield.!


Every airfield falls into that catagory Loco....:hmm: I don't see why you need to make the distinction.

The problems are compounded in a place like AP for a number of rather well understood reasons (well understood in most parts of the civilized world that is)

1. A varied mix of traffic types, rotary, fixed wing GA & ATO
2. A mix of operating profiles e.g. Low level, procedural, and Skydiving
3. The proximity of terrain
4. Sheer volume of movement..which is increasing every year

Any one of these combinations is justification for an ATC service of some description IMHO, throw in a Biz jet or two, and you start to wonder why the bloody hell the CAA exists at all.
This is a no brainer..when will the mahogany bomber drivers ever learn?

[LocoDriver]

I stand by what I said, situational awareness is important (at any airfield)
what I am saying is that at places like Taupo, the pilot needs to be right on the ball.
With an airline, the pilot would be 'checked' for Taupo, what about the intinerant biz-jet?????- or PPL for that matter.
I am very concerned with the lack of situational awareness(airmanship when I learned to fly) displayed by some pilots, right through the country.

Anyway, pilots I authorise to go to taupo, have at least been very well briefed,thats my contribution to safety.

I agree, ATC should have happened years ago(I know, I contradicted myself)
but it dosent, so we have to use the tools we have.

As for dear old CAA, someone has to harass pilots!

Goin' loco'


:ok: :ok:

[nike]

Thanks Loco.

I kinda get what you're saying, however I doubt that having ATC or not at Taupo would be the cracker to run that campaign on.

There are still plenty of unattented airfields out there to provide opportunities for you to show the need for "...eyes outside my friend...".

I would prefer to have ATC in this situation, not because am I seeking to be "wrapped in cotton wool", rather, among other things, to help me look in the right direction.
Operating to an airfield for the first time or at least for some time, it's not so much that we're not looking outside, but that we're looking for the wrong picture, focusing at the wrong distance, scanning in the wrong directions.

Taupo carries a greater risk is (my opinion) due to the volume and varied nature of the traffic ('traffic' includes parachutes).
The situation requires us to manage this traffic (obviously). First step- identifying said traffic in order to create a resolution to avoid any potential conflict. ATC would be there to help us with this first step (only needs to be CTR/D).

It would be good to get opinion from those operating at Taupo now.

The rest of us are merely outside looking in.

[haughtney1]

I am very concerned with the lack of situational awareness(airman ship when I learned to fly) displayed by some pilots, right through the country
I couldn't agree more :ok:
Personally however I dont honestly think the aviators currently plugging around in GA are any better or worse than when I did my first solo circuit at Thames 14 years ago (gawd is it that long ago? :bored: )
The real issue with SA or lack of, relates in no small way IMHO to an increasing skills/experience gap that currently exists in the NZ training sphere.
The CAA in their infinite wisdom (aka ostrich fashion) have performed woefully over the past decade and presided over standards that are nothing short of professional negligence. This problem exists from top to bottom in GA, I don't accept the assertion that a few "rogue" operators are to blame..it is quite simply endemic.
NZ is a fairly unique (but by no means anymore challenging than anywhere else) environment, and it continues to suffer from chronic under-investment into the aviation infrastructure (Endangering GA, and ATO operators alike)..which again can be laid Farly and squarely at the supposedly independent, safety minded, CAA:yuk:
The time for a clean out is nigh, the time for a culture change in GA is 10 years late, and its time the CAA starts doing the job you guys pay all your user fees for.

[On speed on profile]

Loco, The situational awareness of NZ GA pilots is some of the best in the world. Probably something to do with the "can do" attitude that Kiwis hold. In the UK, the situational awareness of the recreational pilot is absolutely shocking. I have experienced first hand examples of it from a wide range of different areas of GA and I would much rather fly into Taupo than in many areas of the UK. That however is not the point, Taupo is unique.

Taupo is not a difficult place to fly into when you have experience, its easy to navigate to and with the surrounding land features, anyone who can lose situational awareness flying in there needs a kick up the a£$e, especially if they are "airline types". A proper self brief on the place (of the type taught to you by your instructor during CPL training :hmm: ) should be all thats required of any new airport you intend to fly to!

The issue here though is the highly unique way in which Taupo airport is run and the cross section of activities that go on there. Central co-ordination of activities is a highly sensible way to miniminse the risk but there are some big balled people out there who think they know best.

What they fail to realise though is its not their fellow operators that are going to kill them, it is the GA pilot who goes into a piece of airspace they are unfamiliar with and ends up out of his/her depth!

Always remember! You cant avoid what you havent seen or heard!

[MOR]

I find it a bit hard to agree with that. My experience of flying in the UK over the last 20 years is that it the airspace, from a GA point of view, is inordinately complex compared to NZ. Nothing in NZ compares to places like Fairoaks, right under the Heathrow CTZ. A very busy GA airport, and if you want to get from Fairoaks to, say, Barton, you have some fairly complex airspace to navigate, not to mention the different QNH setting requirements etc. As an observation, I spent quite a lot of my time in the UK training up NZ and Aussie pilots into UK airline positions, and almost without exception they had trouble with SA at busy airports. Nothing in NZ prepares you for a serious international airport.

I also disagree with this:

What they fail to realise though is its not their fellow operators that are going to kill them, it is the GA pilot who goes into a piece of airspace they are unfamiliar with and ends up out of his/her depth!

The whole point of flight safety is that an average GA pilot should NEVER be out of their depth in unfamiliar airspace, because the level of standardisation and control should preclude it. It may be worth mentioning that the afore-mentioned Fairoaks in the UK, a single runway of some 813m, has a full AFIS from 0800-1800 every day. The other airfield I mentioned, Barton, has a longest runway of 621m and, guess what, also has a full-time AFIS on the field. We are so laughably out of step with the rest of the first world that it beggars belief.

The good old Kiwi "can do" attitude is fine, but when applied to aviation, quickly becomes dangerous. That is one of the reasons we have had so many recent accidents where pilots flew perfectly good aircraft into terrain.

The problem with AP is that nothing is likely to happen to enhance safety there, partly because the CAA don't believe that safety is their responsibility, and partly because the local operators are unwilling to submit to any further control on their operations (probably for financial reasons).

It is only a matter of time.

[haughtney1]

The situational awareness of NZ GA pilots is some of the best in the world. Probably something to do with the "can do" attitude that Kiwis hold. In the UK, the situational awareness of the recreational pilot is absolutely shocking.

With all due respect speed..thats crap buddy, that has certainly not been my experience..no doubt as MOR states its horses for courses, but nothing more.
NZ pilots in my experience have a long way to go so far as SA is concerned, "can do" be damned, if you have to resort to an attitude of "I can do this"...:hmm: just to get in and out of a place then you have no business being there in the first place.

The clock continues to tick...the toll continues to rise.

[On speed on profile]

MOR & Haughtney,

You points are both well taken and you are right when you say its only a matter of time. There will be another incident at Taupo, it will be in the near future and there is only one thing that can avoid it. Lets just hope the CAA take that option. The question that begs to be answered is this.... What is the big deal with having ATC? It is not any more restrictive and in most cases enhances saftey and efficiency as has been well proven in the UK.

OSOP

[CougarNZ]

As one of the Loan system pilot currently training , I will agree that some of the people joining the aviation circle by this means have no interest pass flying off there course fees in aviation.
there are also a good number of us that are using the loan system , and going thru good training progams which will ensure we do begin usefull pilots for GA aviation and further.

I have flown 186.7 hours in last 13 months and believe my levels of situational awareness are pretty darn good , with flights to a great number of the airfields thru out NZ. I am better sure I and my instructor's are working hard to ensure I have the skills to continue on in avaition. not just be a solo idiot in the circuit etc etc

[MOR]

Would one of those skills be an adequate comprehension of the english language? You know, spelling, grammar, stuff like that... :=

[prospector]

Mor,
Do you mean the skills required to get a student loan??

Prospector

[MOR]

Touche! :D :D :D

[CougarNZ]

My apologies MOR if my grammar was a bit off.
just trying to say I am getting in on the ground level , and i want to ensure i am a safe pilot and that i gain the experience i require to move up.
i will not be in a hurry to jumo in big aircraft , as i love flying VFR.

If a few of the people with the ego's ( well preferalbly with usefull flying experience) actually got involved on a aero club level it would ensure that the next generation of pilot's being trained are going to be usefull.
surely with all the experience some people " have" the same mistakes and issue shouldn't continue.

Back on subject , I flew into NZAP on the day the new media gave this "enlightening" report.
it's about us all ensuring we are doign us best for situational awareness.

Try reading Tony Kern's two books on Airmanship and Flight Discilpine. well worth reading.

[CougarNZ]

We shoudl be out to encourage other pilots to improve there skills ( spelling included ) not go in for personal attacks ( MOR)

[prospector]

CougarNZ,
In a post about spelling, "there skills" should be "their skills". It is not a personal attack. just that it would appear if you cannot get such a simple task correct. how are you going to handle a complex task??? This may be relevant or it may not be, but on initial contact bad spelling does not engender confidence on the abilities, or education, of the individual involved.
It would appear that to expect proper spelling is a thing that is only valued by dinosaurs in this day and age. but incorrect spelling can change completely the intent of the message, this has led to much embarrassment in the past, and no doubt will in the future.

Prospector

[haughtney1]

Cougar,
You'd better leave the forum if you don't want to be abused by "MOR Lord Of Civil Aviation New Zealand" - he specialies in personal attacks.

Whats the problem witch?..been on the wrong end of a telling off recently? :}

[MOR]

CougarNZ

It wasn't a personal attack, it was an observation on SA, in other words if you cannot construct a simple sentence in english, how are you going to get on when it comes to interpreting rapid, numerous radio transmissions?

Well, I suppose it was also about the level of education of some pilots and how that relates to safety. Prospector made that point too.

It may also illustrate a complete lack of understanding of irony. Maybe.

As far as experienced pilots getting involved in local aero clubs, my experience has been that student pilots love it but instructors hate it, as it tends to make them look less authoritative. The net result is that aero clubs do not tend to like experienced people hanging around. It is a great pity, particularly as the people who have been and done the airline thing tend to have lesser egos than most instructors and many students - they have done what they set out to do, and have nothing further to prove.

I have tried to involve myself in the local club, offering expertise and experience for free, but have been... how should I say this... discouraged. Not by the students though, they are a great bunch.

Haughtney

What did I miss? The person you told off seems to have deleted his post. Pity... :}

[CougarNZ]

My apologies for mis-spelling a few words earlier , was just trying to stick up for a few of us loan students.

I would welcome involvment of experience pilots within a aero club environment, it one thing i see lacking at my aero club, and as you say does seem to be blocked ( i have seen very experienced pilot turned away ) from getting on line as instructors.
seem to be a very limited loop of experience ie all the instuctors we students only a few years ago.
I get to chat with a number of airline pilots ( work part time in a hotel ) and I am really impressed with the encouragement and advice i get.

[Waka Rider]

Basically the simple facts are that Steve and his passengers would be alive if Taupo had radar and ATC. What pisses me off is all the claims and counter claims over cost benefits effectiveness etc. Saving lives and prevention of incidences and accidents are the reasons that we have the CAA. However its safety with a cost effective base very simliar to insurance companies. MOR with you 100% over the SA issues. CDG took me the best part of 2 years to even come close to being useful. Your average cadet pilot trained in the environment did much better than I.

[Waka Rider]

[QUOTE=Waka Rider]Basically the simple facts are that Steve and his passengers would be alive if Taupo had radar and ATC. What pisses me off is all the claims and counter claims over cost benefits effectiveness etc. Saving lives and prevention of incidences and accidents are the reasons that we have the CAA. However its safety with a cost effective base very simliar to insurance companies. MOR with you 100% over the SA issues. CDG took me the best part of 2 years to even come close to being useful. Your average cadet pilot trained in the environment did much better than I. These cadet pilots do have very good training courses with big prices but they do very well online

[nike]

Poor form MOR.

I too appreciate a thoughtfully constructed, well drafted post. But to pass off an attempted slight as some meaningful observation of a person's piloting attributes is pathetic and serves you no credit.

Truely, if that is the depth of analysis involved in developing your 'anti-generation next' arguements, then irony is indeed lost.

[MOR]

If you can't see the correlation, nike, I'm afraid the problem is yours, not mine.

There are some aspects to this that you don't know about.

I have no axe to grind with "generation next", where did you get that idea?

[Cloud Cutter]

Nike, I think MOR raises a valid point. Most of us make the odd spelling mistake, but I would expect a professional pilot to be able to construct a cohesive sentence.

i rkn its caus of 2 mch txtng ay m8

[Hanz Blix]

Come on guys this is bollocks just because the guy couldn't construct a post correctly dosen't mean his piloting skills are poor.

GROW UP:ugh:

[Oktas8]

Anyone still interested in the topic? It was about Taupo (not) getting ATC, if we cast our minds back a day or so.

:ok:

[nike]

My apologies oktas8, but I am not a big fan of PM's due to the fact that they effectively go against the grain of a public forum and the intent to share ideas.

My point is against what MOR wrote regarding CougarNZ in post #41 (not #34) and is therefore obviously off topic within this thread. For that I apologise.

I also apologise for the bemused tone in this post, but MOR, you cannot be serious?

Surely this whole 'thing' we call a forum is about sharing ideas and challenging viewpoints.

"...the problem is mine..."? really does nothing to help me understand your point. If you truely wish to garner respect please try harder to share your ideas. Indeed is that not what you are asking of CougarNZ?

Why my disdain at your post?
Simply, I cannot bring myself to question CougarNZ's situational awareness based on a post on PPRuNe. Which is what you put forward as your rebuttal to Cougar defending what he saw as a personal attack.
I've never meet the guy, and will not agree to condemn his piloting skills simply based on a post. One, which if you look at the overall tone of that particular post is not too bad.

Within those few posts this guy has tripped, stumbled, stood up & apologised, tried to appease those who seek to condemn him, and has been shot down at every turn.

Truely a disappointing example of what sort of encouragement is out there for young pilots.

MOR, I mistakenly credited you with comments made by Prospector regarding the apparent drift in english language skills across the generations. However I am not entirely convinced of your contention of zero comtempt for those younger than you.

Now, I have come a long way myself, making plenty of errors and still have many lessons ahead. What I would hope for is a guiding hand and a positive mentor, not cutting remarks filled with ridicule for those in need.

If indeed it is the intent of this debate to raise the standards wihtin these forums, then lets not limit it to spelling or grammar or to the new guys.

[MOR]

nike

The first thing you need to know is that CougarNZ and I know each other personally.

The second thing you need to know is that there is a direct correlation between one skill (the ability to write a coherent sentence), and another (situational awareness). Both require comprehension to be effective. The sentence I was alluding to in CougarNZ's post was this -

I will agree that some of the people joining the aviation circle by this means have no interest pass flying off there course fees in aviation.

Can you explain what that means?

(Sorry to drag you back into this CougarNZ, but the question needs to be answered. looking forward to our next beer).

Yes, this forum is about sharing ideas and challenging viewpoints, which is all I was doing if you read my posts carefully.

As far as having less than zero contempt for those younger than me, you are way off the mark. Until two years ago, I was running simulator courses for wannabe airline pilots, and not looking for payment for it. I still actively encourage young pilots, as CougarNZ will confirm if you ask him. I would like nothing more than to get back into instructing - not for the money, just for the satisfaction. I have had a long and satisfying airline career, and right now I just want to put something back into aviation for those who are just starting out. Unfortunately, the aero clubs seem to be full of people just wanting to protect their little empires, so I have been unable to do so - but I'm still trying.

Perhaps, instead of venting your anger on me, you could focus your attention on those who prevent people like me from helping people who are just starting out.

I'm always more than happy to help out anyone wanting advice, as many people on this forum know who have spoken to me.

Now, back to Taupo...

[On speed on profile]

it has a lake and mountains in the background, oh and an airport that we were discussing..........

Lets get back on topic! :ugh:

Waka rider, Your statement is very true however Taupo isnt unsafe because it has only an NDB to make approaches with. Plenty of aircraft use that approach and dont hit Tauhara, its the amount and various specialist types of operations that are conducted in and very close to the MBZ and approaches to AP that warrant ATC. If Taupo had an ILS, or someone monitoring your progress on radar, yes it would be safer to approach from the north but thats not the main issue here, its the aircraft and meatbombers that get in your way that cause the issue!

Dont get me wrong though, your comment is valid fuel for the argument!

[CougarNZ]

As i pretty fresh pilot 186.7 hours of total time in the past 13 months of my flying ( total flying experience).

Firstly i must aplogise yet again for pulling this thread off topic.

My first post here was to defend those of us that take the student loan road into our aviation careers.
but i did concede that there are people taking the cousres because of the loans , some people starting with not even putting a feew hundreds dollars up front for trial flights and lesson before signinf up to the course, some will be lucky to get to point to Pass there CPL ( note i have yet to do the flight test) and have no direction pass flying off the money in the course fees. But there are also guys who work hard to ensure we are learning the right things and have some future using the large investment we have made in ourselves.

I noted earlier in a post my recommendation for people to read a couple of books written by Tony Kern ( a USAF instructor ) just search on amazon for "Flight Discipline" and Redefining Airmanship" , ,book i had recommended to be by a Air NZ Pilot. both of these books are very good for putting questions to each of us as to how we think and behave as pilots. I have pick up some good SA advice in the books.

MOR approached the aero club where i am training , but the old boys network seemed to block out a fresh face with some great skills , much to the dissapointment of many of us students. surely the more social interaction and professional interaction the better we can become as pilots.
starts to make us students look closer at if our "aero club and training provider", are they just interested in the revenue provided by us , or are they making a genuine effort to ensure we become good pilots, ie that they teach us more than just how to pass the flight tests and exams. instill some good airmanship practices in our learning.
Our Instructors make a effort but organisational cuture ( atitudes from club excutive) around us makes us a little nervous

We all look around us for role models.
something i made light of a CAA safety talk at our aero club , I look up to students on my course with 50 more hrs to be ( as they have more experience ) and to other pilots in the aero club. It's up to all pilot to look out for each other and even question each other's atitude at times. the very experienced pilot with a bad atitude ( mindset ) is just dangerous as pilot with less experience flying in conditions beyond there skill level.

right back on topic , I flewn into AP on the day all this was in the media. I believe i had a good SA of things going on in th MBZ as i flew up from the south. but i still took a wide downwind track and ended extending due to a skydive plane on a non standard base leg descending thru 5000ft . as i couldn't get a visual on the other aircraft and it wasn't comforming to standard circuit procedures. I am sure the other pilot was aware of my position in circuit. we most likely we not conflicting each other , but was easy enough to hang out wide and state my intentions clearly on radio to ensure safety all round.

I would think that ATC at AP would become necessary in the furture with aircraft numbers in the area. Surely Safety has to be ensured on a better model than be a cost-benefit model. Maybe CAA needs to be more pro-active in enforcing safety standards for the safety of both the public and for Us ( the Pilots )

[Cloud Cutter]

Cougar

There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a student load to pay for your flight training - you don't need to defend yourself. In fact, now that it's interest free, you could argue that it is stupid not to. The idea is to get yourself qualified and into the aviation work force as soon as possible so you can acheive the highest earnings possible in the future. If you take 5 years to get through your training because you are working full time trying to pay for it, you would be selling yourself short in the future. Many people will simply not reach the top levels in our small aviation market because they started too late (not saying there's anything wrong with that, many people are happy with the lifestyle flying for a regional).

It's good that you are concerned about exercising good airmanship, and doing plenty of reading on the subject. It's also good to see you recognise the value of others' experience. Much of the learning I did as a student was over a few beers with the old grays at the aeroclub bar.

[Oktas8]

One of the difficulties I have with ATC in Class D airspace, is that safety and efficiency seem to become mutually exclusive. (Except NP - they're very efficient.)

CougarNZ extended downwind because a skydiving aircraft was on a non-standard base from 5000' (and fair enough too if traffic not sighted). Now if I know the skydive operator, he was probably flying such a tight circuit that CougarNZ could have flown a standard circuit and landed normally without there being any conflict. ATC would have encouraged this to happen one might think.

In fact, with ATC on watch, the skydive aircraft would probably have been micro-managed around a non-standard circuit while CougarNZ was ordered to hold on downwind, other aircraft doing scenics etc over the lake would have had difficulty getting a clearance due to the busy-ness of the radio, and then finally CougarNZ would have been told he was Number 2 to the airliner on 10nm final. There would have been no "follow that aircraft", instead "extend downwind until advised" followed much later by "the aircraft has landed now, so turn base".

Farfetched and extreme? I see it every day I fly in my local circuit!

Now I'm not trying to start an ATC bashing thread - I think their behaviour is driven by Wellington as much as anything - but although Taupo's safety would be benefit from ATC, productivity would go through the floor, which might be why the suggestion is being vigorously opposed.

[nike]

Thanks MOR.

P.S. What does having less than zero contempt actually mean?

[MOR]

What does
Quote:
having less than zero contempt
actually mean?

Ah well it's like this.

You introduced the concept of a "contention of zero contempt for those younger than me" in your earlier post.

I took your syllogistic form, and inverted it, creating a positive from your inferred negative suppositionary allusion.

Having done that, I concluded the conversion to metaphor by implying a double negative rendering of the original form, thus creating an implied positive that is contextually linked to the original statement. Thus, by the dual processes of implication and obfuscation, I arrived at the phrase in question.

Can't say clearer than that, can I? := :=

In other words, I think young pilots are way cool, but their music sucks and they have no respect for their elders. And as for their choice in women... damn I wish I was younger!

[nike]

Now that's a post.

Like it.

[steinycans]

Taupo = bad because there is no ATC. issues like pilot training and situational awareness are the preserve of part 61 and should be adressed in that context.

ATC costs money and tramples on certain peoples toes.

If one looks at the situation as a balanced equation where on the one hand you have a finite amount of money and on the other, a mixture of activities, what activities do you think should be removed to make taupo a safer airport? humour me i am new.

as an example, one could say PJE should be allowed to dispatch but have to land off-site. this would at least free-up the overhead. If PJE operators are upset about the increased cost, they should look around and see how many other PJ airfields there are around to compete against. I dont know but i am sure there are plenty of examples overseas where this happens.

So there you go. Considering that ATC is not going to occur at taupo in the short to medium term, what would you remove/alter to make it safer?