Pilots given 'back handers' to go illegally?

[x-check]

I am a cabin crew member with nearly two years experiance, with the same company. So the rules on flight duty periods and limitations (CAP 371), is now sinking in.

Looking back I now know that there have been times when I and the rest of the crew have been illegal to operate, due to going out of hours. At base or down route. When bringing it to the attention of the Captain (by myself and/or other crew members) they have said we are fine.

Other times, I and/or other crew members have gone into discretion. The first we hear about it is once we have got back to base. Isn't discretion ment to be sort from the idividual crew member first? And a crew member is perfectly in their right to say No?

On a number of recent occassions cabin crew have have gone out of hours at base or down route. To prevent lenghther delays (due to lack of replacement crew) and reduce cost, the flight deck crew where promised money to inform the cabin crew they where still legal to operate. And to go.

Is this common? Have you come across this?

I understand most of us want promotion (flight and cabin crew), in some cases a perminant contract. So do not want a black mark against our
names. However if the CAA boarded and looked into everyones hours its that individual cabin crew member that would be taken to court.

Saying this there are a few Captains who are not scared of saying the crew are out of hours.

Cabin crew new and old should ensure they know thier flight time limitations. CAP 371 should be made a lot more clear as well!

[Gary Lager]

Isn't discretion ment to be sort from the idividual crew member first? And a crew member is perfectly in their right to say No?

The discretion is that of the aircraft commander, not the individual. So the answer to those questions is not really.

the flight deck crew where promised money to inform the cabin crew they where still legal to operate

This is an exceptionally serious allegation, and most certainly not legal, if we're talking about those cabin crew who have gone out of hours exceeding their max FDP PLUS discretion (see note above). Are you absolutely certain that this is the case? Could 'money changing hands' be an unrelated event, such as crew agreeing to work into a day off.

ts that individual cabin crew member that would be taken to court.

Probably not if they were told they were legal by the Captain. He/she would certainly end up contravening the regulations.

[Bealzebub]

X-check,

Starting with your last point first. you are right that cabin crew should become familiar with FTL's and CAP 371. However the latter is a fairly weighty document that is the framework for an individual companies FTL approvals. Nevertheless a good working knowledge of your companies approved Flight time limitation scheme should be readily available to you, and an attempt made to understand it.

One of the common misunderstandings with FTL's concerns the use of the word limitation. Although there are absolute limits for certain circumstances, it becomes much more complicated by the fact that there are planning limits upon which there is usually a flexibility. Even Captains have to refer back to the documents for many situations to establish their allowable parameters.

The Captain has the authority (in many cases) to apply his/her discretion to the "maximum Flying duty period" and this discretion can be as much as 3 hours ! In fact in an emergency situation it might be longer. Where the Commanders discretion is excercised he should have taken note of the circumstances of other members of the crew. This latter point can be the subject of some misinterpretation. The commander will need to satisfy himself that the flight can be made safely. In reality (and in the context of this thread) this means he needs to establish that the crew have had sufficient pre flight rest and that any standby duty preceding the FDP is taken into account. Such information is not automatically communicated to the Captain and he may need to make enquiries of the other crew members. If there are any special circumstances with a crewmember that have been raised, the Captain can take that into account and either work around it or deal with it on an individual basis. Unfortunetaly ( or perhaps fortunetaly) this doesn't mean that the Captain needs individual permission from a crewmember to exercise discretion, nor does he need to take a vote on the matter. Extended duties are never going to popular, and it is the Captain who has the final say on their use subject to him satisfying himself with regard to the requirements.

When you say that a crewmember has a "perfect right to say no", that isn't entirely accurate. On the one hand they can say no to any duty they like for whatever reason they like. Indeed anybody else in any other job can do likewise. However in most cases excepting sickness or other special circumstances that would likely place an individual in breach of the terms of their contract of employment and lay them open to whatever subsequent sanctions the employer would apply in such situations. The truth of the matter here is that a crewmember should in the absence of any extraordinary circumstances, present themselves for duty in a state of readiness to complete a duty that may well exceed the planning limits for a set FDP. That is often the nature of the job and therefore is likely to occur. Yes it may be unpopular, inconvenient, disruptive, and tiring, but it is within the Captains mandate to authorise it irrespectively.

On the subject of being "legal" to operate. This an often overused word that is not accurate either. The flight deck FTL's are in most cases one hour less than those applied to the cabin crew. As a result it would normally be the case that a crew reporting together would be effectively constrained by the flight decks FDP limits. Any extension that requires more than the use of 2 hours ( less in some circumstances) must be reported to the Civil aviation authority, together with a brief explanation of the circumstances. Nobody is going to jeopardize their licence by operating illegally and indeed the FTL flexibility ( discretion) provides the working buffer to avoid such a situation.

I am not really sure what you mean by your statement that the crew were offered money to operate when they were out of hours ? The commanders use of discretion means that the normal FDP table limits can be extended. I suppose there is nothing stopping commanders from using whatever financial recompense that may be within their gift to provide incentive or reward, but that is not an FTL issue. If you are saying the Flight deck were offered money to tell the cabin crew to operate when in fact they were not within hours to do so, then that raises two questions. One they would still be constrained by their limitation which is one hour less than that of the cabin crew, so how did they get around this ? Secondly wouldn't someone else have noticed and pointed this out? Even then if they were taking "backhanders" to operate illegally they would be monumentaly stupid to have let everyone else know, much less actually do it ! I am afraid this sounds like a bit of fantasy embellishment.

If the CAA boarded and looked at your hours would you be taken to court ? Well no I really don't think so. The Captain is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight. You certainly have a duty to keep the Captain informed (either directly or through a senior crewmember) of any circumstances that you feel may have some relevance to a situation. You can also ask if you are unsure on a particular point. Certainly any serious irregularity would lay the Captain open to scrutiny and the operator as well. Both are well aware of their liability and responsibility in such matters. As you point out the Captain can either choose to apply discretion or not as he sees fit in the circumstances.

In summary it can be a complicated subject for everybody, but the Captain has the authority to apply flexibility to the flying duty periods and this is often the cause of such confusion with some cabin crew members. Nevertheless if you are uncertain or have a question on this subject then the Captain or first officer or a senior crewmember should be able to assist you regarding clarification of the matter.

Your title to this thread is perhaps intriguing but I would suggest probably nonsense.

[BSD]

X-Check,

Well, reading your first ever post on this web-site has brightened up a dull and dreary day enduring my pet hate - a standby duty!

I hope to goodness your wild allegations are incorrect, and that hopefully whatever scurrilous activity it is that you are recounting here constitutes something that you have misunderstood.

If that is not the case, then I have a few immediate thoughts:

1. Leave your employer immediately! If the extremely serious allegations you make are correct, what other desperately dodgy practices are they pursuing?

2. You mention CAP 371, and you are right it needs some understanding. Have you got a copy? In addition I believe you are beholden to the interpretation of CAP 371 that your airline has established, and which has been approved by the authority for use within your airline, and which is enshrined and published within the FTL section of your airlines ops. manuals. Thus CAP 371 needs ro be read in context with your airlines approval.

3. It is important to understand that discretion is actually the "commanders discretion" and it is the commander who may choose to exercise it after consideration of all the relevant factors. Technically I believe, it is not your right to say "No" However, your situation should be inquired about, and become a consideration which the commander should take into account in reaching a decision.

4. I do however feel that as the responsibilty rests with the commander, if your flight was boarded by the authority, and it was felt that the discretion had been exercised incorrectly, ouside the guidelines and rules laid down in your FTL scheme, then the responsibilty , and hence any action taken, would be the burden of the commander, and not yourself. My understanding is that you would only end up in court if you had say, misrepresented the amount of rest you had previously enjoyed.

FTL schemes are complex, have loads of rules, etc. and need careful iinterpretation. Happily I work in an airline where there is an open and honest culture, and most commanders are happy to share and discuss their thoughts and decisions with the crew. Sometimes, not all crewmembers like the result, but I believe it is a better working environment than the one you allude to.

Back to my standby, only 28 minutes left!

BSD.

[sky9]

x-check:
There are 2 things you can do:

1. Post the flight times, duty times and number of sectors and any proceeding standby period onto this thread for people to look at.
2. If you are then still concerned I suggest that you contact CHIRP who will follow it up.

The suggestion that money changes hands is serious, firstly because it could be rumour rather than fact. If however it is true it and hours are fiddled to make something that is illegal, "legal" it is indeed something that needs to go further up the chain.

[alexban]

Indeed ,it is captain's discretion,and also captain's responsability if anything goes wrong after extending FTL.
Also,the captain must check with the rest of the crew their ability to perform flight duties.There may be some crew members who decide they're unfit for an extended flight duty.This has to be taken in condideration also.
Personally,in case of unexpected delays,I always ask all my crew members if they feel fit for duty.Of course,most of them would love to go to some nice hotel in paris,london,...,:=
They will let me know if someone is feeling very tired or sick...,and if not possible to depart with minimum crew we'll have some rest.I did it a few times,with no negative results.
I think you have to consider the worst case scenario,what if something bad happens during landing,for ex,...what would you answer to the judge?
If you feel ok with that,then you have a go..
Finally,the captain is personally responsable with the safety of the flight.No one can give you permission,even in writing,to disobey the law.It's your license at stake,and even more..

[EC Does It]

X-check,

Is English your first language? If not, then are you sufficiently literate in English? It seems from the spelling level in your thread that you might not be 100% sure of whats going on. Not many guys around who are going to throw away 70k+ pa by being illegal. There is just no way that the paperwork could be doctored to cover it.

Having a chat with someone at work about what the CAP rules are could help to prevent any misunderstanding.

[bushbolox]

It sounds to me like a bit of muddied waters by Galley FM. IT is possible that Flight crew who , after excercising discretion were into the next day off and due a DOP to complete the flight. This is totally legal and nothing to do with the FTL issue.

The way the allegation is presented here is scarily similar to the sort of misinformation and gossip that is generated regularly due to the Galley FM and the general ignorance of FTL by the majority of cabin crew. I am regularly confronted with vacant disinterested gazes by cabin colleagues when answering a very basic enquiry (which is their respnsilbilty to be aware of) Usually concerning their duty ,rest etc and I attempt an explaination thru the manual. All they usually want is an answer. HoweverWhen Galley FM gives them a hint that they may have ben bamboozled the whole cylce of misinformation and gossip starts again, healthily fed by the resentment that flight crew are getting a better deal and part of the conspiricy. I apologise for the generalisation but that is my personnal experience of six years of Charter cabin crew and disrupted schedules.

[Tigs2]

EC Does it
Considering the nature of the post and the fact that X-check may not have english as the first language i find your post offensive. Did you get the message? Does it matter about the spelling? The spoken language is difficult enough without the issue of the written word. Perhaps you could write us a lengthy post in Thai, Malay, Arabic,Russian,Greek and make sure all the spellings are correct. A*****e:mad: This is a CRM forum!

[EC Does It]

X-check,

Having just read the post by Tigs2, I realise that my post could have been miscontrued and would like to apologise unreservedly if I caused you any offence.
It certainly wasn't meant as a personal attack and I sincerely hope that you accept this as a full and public apology.
I have also edited the post, to read in a (hopefully) less brusque manner.

ECDI.

[Tigs2]

EC Does it

Go up by 100 cred points! Thank you. That reads much much better.