The Florida Mud-Wrestling Pit!

[DesiPilot]

Glad to see that PPRuNe Mods have not taken away our ability to edit the posts. Well, Scroggs, you might be enjoying this more than anyone else, so I am editing all my posts here.

This thread is not as informative as the other one was, so I am deleting all my posts here.

Adios for now.

:) Jatin

[Bobby Brown]

I usually just read the postings but I have it on good authority from a whale and a bus driver that Naples approvals for all flight training expired on February 28th 2006 and they were not renewed. I have been told that if you look at the CAA website under Standards Document 31 ver 65 that NAC is not approved for ANY Flight training at all. Interesting advert in the June PILOT magazine page 106, QUOTE:
" CFI Position" "JAA CPL Flight School"
Seeks CFI to join the busy team in Florida. Competitive package, visa sponsorship, relocation benefits.
Please send resume to : *************************************
March 30th 2006 Quote: "A name has been put forward,the main man is on holiday,I am just awaiting his blessing"
That is some outstanding holiday, awesome, where do you apply for a job like his? No wonder Belgrano charges so much for nothing.
Why would you advertise in the June Pilot if somebody was already in place?

[BillieBob]

Just so you know, the JAA PPL exam papers does not belong to the examiner rather they belong to school and school must appoint a nominee for the same.An interesting opinion regarding the rules - and one, according to my information, not shared by the CAA.

[itsbrokenagain]

WOW, Bobby single poster just registered brown you are a rocket scientist! Thanks for the info you have posted !

But whats the bee in your bonnet??? No one has said they have a HoT, no one has a problem with a job advert! ( there should be more of them ). But hey thanks for your post, its helped a real lot of people, keep up the informative work!

[Bobby Brown]

Its Broken Again.
The point being that if they are waiting for the main man to come back from holiday for his blessing, and it is just a paperwork exercise, then why 2 month's later would you place an advert in Pilot, smacks of BS unless you know otherwise. As far as I am aware the PPL paper's belong to the CAA not the school and in my day the nominated person, ( CEP ) had to be a GRE.

[DesiPilot]

Edited - See first post.

[JABI]

Just so you know, the JAA PPL exam papers does not belong to the examiner rather they belong to school and school must appoint a nominee for the same. Before I left NAC, we nominated Nikki for the exam papers. Now that doesnt mean that Nikki can conduct the exams, but there are examiners who are willing to travel to NAC for exam papers and flight tests.

So this indicates the following is possible;
After jumping through all the hoops to get JAA certification, the school in question can get rid of all required personnel after nominating an employee to sit on the exams.
The school can still provide their customers with a JAA PPL , this time without any supervision from the CAA or any inspections, and without holding any JAA certification.
Just hire an outside examiner to review the exams.
Students will have to complete a FAA PPL prior to conversion.
That is a travesty of the rules.

Since students are being trained in US airspace in N-registered aircraft by FAA certified Instructors without any oversight I would suggest to the CAA the following:
*enforce the rules as you are supposed to do, or
* allow any school in the US (or Canada/Australia or anywhere for that matter) to have the PPL exams and be able to offer "JAA PPL".

The customer (yes, students are customers contrary to popular belief)
will have the chance to make a better choice for flight training.

[DesiPilot]

Edited - See first post.

[JABI]

Read my post again- it clearly says that when I shut down Britannia we were asked to send the exam papers back to the CAA.

Thank you for stating the obvious....again...school closed, return the exam papers.

Where did I say in post that if school has lost the approval they can conduct JAA training?

You did not and neither did I, but they still hold the exam papers, which allows them to have students do conversions, which is essentially the same result.

Although not approved, students can still go to any school and renew their licence. All renewal requires is a flight with an approved FI (not at approved school) and than if license is expired a flight test with an FE/CRE/FIE.

Nobody said anything abot renewals, so what is your point?

So the CAA has enforced its regulation on everyone equally. That includes NAC, OBA, OFT, EFT and even your school.

No they have NOT, OBA/OFT and EFT still have the required JAA certified/authorized or otherwise approved personnel.
Bottom line, if you lose the required people, lose all authorization, it is odd that you can still continue to conduct your business with only a minor change, which is the FAA skill test before the JAA one.
So essentially nothing changed.

But I do look up at times and thank God that I am not part of politics that involves JAA/FAA flight training in Florida
I am sure you are not the only one feeling that way.

You are still defending it every time though...:D

[BillieBob]

DesiPilot - I have now had three independent responses to my question concerning the conduct of JAA PPL exams at NAC. Two were by p.m. from people who are well placed to know the score, the third from a contact in the CAA somewhat higher up the food chain than your suggestion. All three are firmly of the same opinion - JAA PPL examinations cannot legally be conducted at NAC now that the nominated holder of the papers has left. The arrangement that NAC apparently have in place, whereby the paperwork is allegedly being signed, fraudulently, by a person not qualified to do so, is, I am informed, likely to result in yet more qualifications and authorisations being withdrawn from the people involved.

Furthermore, I am assured that any application for a JAA PPL received from NAC, dated after the departure of the nominated Head of Training will be rejected.

It seems that we all have lessons to learn!

[DownIn3Green]

Hey Bobby, thanks for your very informative posts...if you are in touch with a "whale" and "bus" driver, both of whom have intricate knowledge of NAC operations, then NAC must be doing something right...i.e.-did those guys get some of their training at NAC then move up to the big leagues?

Also, do you know the deadline for adverts in various publications? It may be NAC placed that ad long ago and for a variety of reasons may not have either been able to or wanted to pull it.

Also, where does the ad say they're looking for a HoT?

Anyway, like someone else has all ready said, keep up the good posts...we all look forward to "one post wonders" view of all things aviation...:D

[DesiPilot]

Edited - See first post.

[DesiPilot]

Edited - See first post.

[BillieBob]

Desi - Perhaps it might be wise to talk to your previous employer, or your friend Linda, before making any further posts on this subject - it might help, in the long run, to preserve your credibility.

[scroggs]

Like WWW, I'm getting more than a little fed up with the amount of space the Florida JAA flight training industry is taking up on this forum, especially when most of the noise is coming from those employed by that small part of the overall scene. We don't see similarly immature public arguments from any other sector of this industry; what is it about the Florida environment that renders its inhabitants incapable of holding a civil conversation, or of sorting its problems out quickly and quietly?

As I say, the Floridian JAA scene is a very small part of the overall picture. We may very well decide that its exposure on Pprune should be more in proportion to its share of the UK/JAA market. Given that it's had something like 50% or more of the total FTO discussion on this board since its inception, perhaps we could restore the balance by removing all mention of the Florida training scene for, say, the next five years?

Or perhaps you could all grow up? You are hardly casting yourselves in a flattering light...

Scroggs

[Coneja]

I can understand that moderators would want to intervene when there are possible litigation problems for PPRuNe or to protect the names of the innocent/guilty but I really do not understand why moderators get so het up about postings about Florida flight schools when any intellegent soul can clearly see that the postings are by people venting their spleen/having some fun/axe grinding. It is just a bun fight and surely can be just accepted in that light by the mods. It is clear from the number of viewings that many PPRuNer's find the thread postings interesting and for that reason alone should be left alone. Look upon the Florida threads as the Wannabees "jet blast" threads! Come on mods, live and let live, where is your sense of humour? If you must, start another forum, how about "Professional Training Forum (Florida training/jet blast)". As a further thought, how about restricting posting rights to those PPRuNer's with a personal title in order to raise additional revenue for PPRuNe? ;) I for one would be very sad if the Florida threads were to be :mad: out of existence.

Conejita

[scroggs]

This is a privately-owned website, and there is no right of free speech here. If you wish to have a laugh, I'm sure Jet Blast (or another website) can entertain you. However, you (probably unconsciously) make a good point - the Florida FTOs are becoming a laughing stock thanks to their internecine arguments on this forum. It's high time this stopped.

Scroggs

[Coneja]

Awwww Scroggs, nobody so far as I’m aware is demanding free speech here, surely life isn’t so bad that humour needs to be eradicated is it? No, I didn’t make an unconscious point, THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT, the Florida FTO posts are a laughing stock although the funny side may not always be seen as such by the FTO’s on the receiving end of certain posts! Surely there isn’t anybody who reads the Florida threads and takes them seriously is there? If there is, I would suggest that they are not cut out to be professional pilots anyway! After culling the Florida threads I suppose that the next mods target will be the Ryanair threads! And then who knows what the next casualty will be.
This is a privately-owned website, and there is no right of free speech here.Not taking lessons on censorship from the Chinese or FidelCastro are we?:)

Conejita

[Paris Dakar]

Scroggs/WWW,

This is a privately-owned website, and there is no right of free speech here.

Why not just delete the offending threads and let rest stand?

The PPRuNe Network runs on BBS software therefore you know exactly who is posting, who they are PM'ing and where they are posting from regardless how many aliases they may allege to have.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

We Mods EDIT threads as we see fit. Without a little editorial control PPRuNe would become a free for all like so many other bulletin boards out there. Where cliques rule, inane discussions perpetuate and the average browser is put off participating in what become ever more self referential flame wars.

Florida JAA PPL training equates to about 1.5% of all JAA PPLs issued yet is taking up a lot more bandwidth here on PPRuNe. We don't just cut things dead - we tend to fire warning shots across bows. Which is exactly what is happening now.

Few people are that interested in the machinations at Naples or any other Florida based FTO offering, or trying to offer, JAA PPL courses. So calm down and wind in your necks unless you have something FACTUAL AND NEW to report.

Many thanks,

WWW

[Keygrip]

Florida JAA PPL training equates to about 1.5% of all JAA PPLs issued

If we are letting this thread run off topic - I have to say that I don't believe that statement, but by all means prove me wrong.

What's the source reference for that statistic? Are you saying JAA (Worldwide) or is it a UK CAA statistic? Conversation, this very morning with CAA, suggested an estimated 25% of UK PPL issue is Floridian - and I would hazard a guess that the UK is one of the major GA players in JAA land (could be wrong, there, too).

<<edit: typo>>

[Coneja]

Florida JAA PPL training equates to about 1.5% of all JAA PPLs issued
I’d be interested to see the source of your informed statistics proving your statement that Florida training equates to only 1.5% of all JAA PPL’s issued. Certainly if you take the number of PPL’s issued in the UK I would guess that the figure will be many times higher than the paltry percentage that you quote!

How about taking the time to look at the number of viewings on the Florida threads? The interest is far and above that which you would try to have us all believe. If all threads on PPRuNe (the RuNe bit stands for Rumour Network by the way) were factual and new then there would be scant threads and scant posts and the forums would in my view quickly become stagnant and boring!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

1.5% of JAA PPLs.

As of the 13th of March 20006 the following countries were mutually recognising each others JAA FCL licences:

Belgium
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Malta
Netherlands)
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Turkey
United Kingdom

So 1.5% of JAA licenses being conducted in Florida is a wildly generous figure I drew up on the back of a fag packet.

Its more like 0.5%.

Anyway. Lets just draw our conclusions that Florida based FTOs seem to have recurring problems with staff, qualifications, authorisations and visas and that they draw a disproportionate amount of flame wars on this forum. And move on.

Thanks,

WWW

[JABI]

WWW and Scroggs, if you allow me one more.....

Currently on the first page of Wannabes Forums,

Four major threads on training locations and training providers;

* Naples thread stats. 68 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 133 views/post

*Oxford thread stats. 123 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 78 views/post

*CABAIR thread stats. 110 different user names
views/posts gives avg. 73 views/post

*Jerez thread stats. 124 different usernames
views/post gives avg. 54 views/post

Jerez is the winner with highest number of participants, but most have only one post, similar to Oxford thread.

Naples thread leads with highest views per post, leading to the conclusion that even though the number of participants is relatively low, the interest is unusually high, compared to the other ones that is.
Seems reason enough to keep it open.

I don't think a lot of training is going on in any of the following countries:

Croatia
Iceland
Romania
Slovenia
Turkey

At least they do not have approved FTO's in the US, let alone in Florida.
Haven't read anything about them on Pprune either.
As far as I know all FTO's in the US are sanctioned by the UK CAA.

Apologies for being a pain, had nothing better to do the last 10 min.:O

Let's move on already......

[Paris Dakar]

WWW,

We Mods EDIT threads as we see fit.

Not quite, some Mods Delete threads as seen fit, and that is a fact. Please PM me and I will advise you in more detail.

If the '% figures' are as low as you describe, then why all this latent excitement?

[Coneja]

WWW, your statistics are becoming more and more bizarre and clearly grasped out of thin air! Since you use all of the countries recognising each others JAA FCL Licences, are you also saying that the readership of PPRuNe is also distributed amongst all of those countries? I would suggest to you that the majority of the readership of PPRuNe (although I do not have access to the amazingly accurate statistical information available to you) is from the UK. There is undoubtedly a huge interest in Florida training as shown by the statistics provided by JABI, and, although I haven’t checked his statistics, I have little doubt to their accuracy. Do you not agree that most of the FTO’s in the UK are minute in terms of numbers of pilots trained in comparison with the Florida FTO’s ? Again, I do not have the statistics available, but I wouldn’t mind betting my fag packet to your fag packet that a huge proportion of the PPRuNe readership settle for Florida training. Have you ever visited OBA, OFT or NAC? I would suggest that you haven’t since you would then appreciate the well oiled licence factories that these are. In addition of course, there are many other FTO’s in the USA which provide very efficient, reasonably priced and fast flight training.

Anyway. Lets just draw our conclusions that Florida based FTOs seem to have recurring problems with staff, qualifications, authorisations and visas and that they draw a disproportionate amount of flame wars on this forum. And move on.
That statement is about as sweepingly accurate as saying that we should draw our conclusions that UK based FTO’s seem to have recurring problems with staff and closures! - After all, didn’t the one that you instructed at close down after you left?

[potkettleblack]

Coneja are you really arguing that the Florida FTOs don't seem to have a disproportionate amount of problems/slaggings compared to their European counterparts. Come one. What about all the guff on OBA, the various issues with Naples that have hit the boards over the years. Remember old IFT and the various guises that it and its colourful owner emerged from after taking a wad of wannabees cash with him?

Anyway. Lets just draw our conclusions that Florida based FTOs seem to have recurring problems with staff, qualifications, authorisations and visas and that they draw a disproportionate amount of flame wars on this forum. And move on.

The problem with the Florida FTO's and their staff is well....they are in Florida. There is only a small number of suitably qualified JAA people who can/want to live in Florida and this gives rise to the issue that Naples face now in trying to appoint a replacement. This is the same issue for any FTO that is foreign based and working under JAA. Unfortunately for the wannabee who has a tight time scale and limited funds they may not have the luxury of swapping schools like they could do so easily back in the UK or Europe where the next school will be only a drive away.

[scroggs]

I stayed away from this yeaterday afternoon, and it seems to have become a bit of a talking shop. I may well split this discussion off from the rest of the thread, though I'm not sure that any of it deserves too much more oxygen!

I haven't locked or deleted the Naples thread simply because it is quite illuminating for those who are considering JAA training in Florida - at any of the schools. As Coneja says, it provides a degree of unintentional amusement at the FL schools' expense, and certain leading characters in that area have shown themselves in a fairly unflattering light, which may be instructive for those potential students.

It may be that the way of doing business in the USA encourages this public mud-slinging which has come to be characteristic of the Florida training scene, though we don't see similar behaviour from other parts of the North American training industry. Perhaps it is simply down to a few individuals who can't resist the temptation to score a point or two over their mates over the other side of the airfield (or state). It does seem that the fairly incestuous nature of the FL FTOs (you all seem to have worked for each other at all of the schools at some point) leads to this kind of behaviour, I don't know.

I imagine that the owners and operators of competing schools are loving the way in which a few of you seem keen to sabotage the reputation of your industry, but I also suspect that many of the FL FTO owners wish that you would all just shut up and get on with your jobs! Certainly, the days when contributions from FL-based FIs were welcomed as constructive and helpful seem long gone, as now all we have is yah-boo-sucks point-scoring and name-calling.

It may be funny, but it's also very sad. I'll keep the thread if you want me to, but it seems that to do so may consign some of you to the dole queue.

Scroggs

[JABI]

Coneja, the stats are available via the Pprune advertising link;
According to them last 24 hrs:
Europe (63.78%) 898,317
Australia/Oceania (12.83%) 180,645
North America (10.99%) 154,810

Views per country:

United Kingdom (48.26%) 679,669
Australia (11.15%) 157,054
United States (8.12%) 114,385

So vast majority is UK readership.
Without discussion the UK JAA training market has the largest share on Pprune. Therefore UK CAA approved FTO's have a larger share on the board.

I haven't locked or deleted the Naples thread simply because it is quite illuminating for those who are considering JAA training in Florida - at any of the schools. As Coneja says, it provides a degree of unintentional amusement at the FL schools' expense, and certain leading characters in that area have shown themselves in a fairly unflattering light, which may be instructive for those potential students.

Absolutely true, could not agree more.

It may be that the way of doing business in the USA encourages this public mud-slinging which has come to be characteristic of the Florida training scene, though we don't see similar behaviour from other parts of the North American training industry.

Close, but not entirely true. The majority of UK CAA approved FTO's are in Florida. As far as I know one in Arizona and one in California.
If you would move six to California or Arizona the same environment would develop.
It does seem that the fairly incestuous nature of the FL FTOs (you all seem to have worked for each other at all of the schools at some point) leads to this kind of behaviour, I don't know.

Absolutely true and as we all know not every break up is a happy one.
Due to the nature of the business and the strict requirements for personnel, "sharing" is almost inevitable. And this happens in the UK also, just because of the number of schools the effect is not as obvious. That is simply called competition and "head-hunting".

It may be funny, but it's also very sad. I'll keep the thread if you want me to, but it seems that to do so may consign some of you to the dole queue.

Once again, first part is true.
The latter part..............?
Curious as to the thought process and the motivation for that statement.

[Gator32]

I noticed NAC are advertising for a CFI in this months edition of Flyer magazine. Like many I thought it was only a matter of time before they announced a new CFI, however with the recruitment process & visa processing times etc, it's likely to be a good few months before NAC are able to offer further JAA training.

[DesiPilot]

Edited - See first post.

[Coneja]

well WWW, JABI seems to have blown your speculative and imaginary statistics out of the water armed with only the statistics off of this very website which you moderate! And DesiPilot is absolutely right with his assertion that you have always been opposed to Florida Training, right from the days when you were instructing at Welshpool when from your own admission, you were opposed to USA flying as being inferior having arrived at that conclusion apparently in a manner similar to the other conclusions which have been subsequently shown to be innacurate.

Ahh yes Jatin, how we lament the passing of Britannia and Biggles the dog! That wasn't a Florida FTO, that was a friendly society!

So far as Scroggs's concerns that "this thread may consign some to the dole queue", I don't think that fear is realistic, Mr Thompson of OBA fame has claimed that the OBA thread has had a positive effect on his business. That may of course be pure bravado on his part!

[d2k73]

What was the point of this thread again?!

:confused: :ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm not sure. It seems to be illustrating the fact that doing you PPL in the USA for a JAA license is fraught with strife. Nevertheless the recent decline in the dollar makes it once again financially advantageous particularly if you do your hours building in the same visit.

As I am totally out of the instructing world now (for over half a decade, heck I've been a 737 Captain for over a year :rolleyes: ) and my only interests are in passing on the best advice I think I can, THEN, I think you can conclude that there is no vested interest in my views. Train where you like. Florida is cheap.

Its not what I would tell my Son or Daughter to do though.

A smaller UK school, (if you are a Brit), locallish, with long serving instructors, who can do your PPL CPL and IR just like on an Integrated course is the best way to achieve the ideal balance between training quality and cost in my view.

You all go ahead and try and sell the merits of US JAA training if you want. I haven't stopped you and never will. But you've all made a great job of putting people off and washing your dirty laundry in public..


Cheers

WWW

[Coneja]

It seems to be illustrating the fact that doing your PPL in the USA for a JAA license is fraught with strife.There you go again WWW, more innacurate speculation! Florida training is not fraught with strife at all. It even appears that the problems at OBA have been ironed out as well. No doubt due in some measure to the superb reporting procedures afforded by PPRuNe. Hundreds of Brits train in Florida every year and the vast majority of them are entirely satisfied with the product that they receive. There is always going to be the odd upset with any service provider and you surely can't say that the exception proves the rule! The fact is that Florida training is a superb means to an end and that end is a licence in the most cost effective and shortest possible time.

Before you say that I have a vested interest, let me say that that would be yet more inaccurate speculation. I am just an end user and now I just take a winter flying holiday there to shake off the UK winter blues!

[scroggs]

WWW and Scroggs,
It really doesn't matter if you lock this thread. I guess people will start a new thread with some new title and panting will start all over again.

Yes - that's why I haven't done it!

The 'dole queue' bit was simply a reference to the fact that this thread is undoubtedly putting people off going to Florida to train - and it would appear to be mainly employees of Floridian FTOs doing the putting-off. That will affect the businesses that you work for - and thus your jobs may be on the line. I think if I were an owner of an FTO and I saw my FIs mudslinging on a public forum, I'd be pretty fed up with them. None of the owners has contacted Pprune over this thread (as far as I'm aware), but I'll bet that they're trying to find out who you all are!

Scroggs

[Coneja]

Scroggs, Congratulations on the first piece of positive moderating that I have seen on this forum! How well you have named the thread too!

I have to say that I am 98% sure of who the biggest mud slingers are. If I'm right, they are not actually employed by the schools who are getting the "hits in the engine rooms" They are in the main instructors who have moved on - reluctantly shall we say? :) in many cases! and therefore are throwing missiles with total impunity! Be assured, the owners do know who the perpetrators are but there is little that they can do about it in reality is there? Their postings are in the main truthful although they may choose to grossly exagerate or be "economical with the truth" or dare I say it- fabricate the truth somewhat!

[Florida mud wrestler]

Desipilot, I'm sorry that you have deleted your postings, I believe that Scroggs has in a flash of divine inspirtion taken the heat out of the firefight. He has, show the Florida ramblings to be what they are - mud wrestling bouts and indeed, mud wrestling is for entertainment!

Maybe it will make PPRuNers think and consider their postings more since if I was a moderator, be assured, all of the posts on this thread would have become "stickys" and ineditable. I invite Scroggs to restore your deletions (and anybody elses) so that the thread humour is not lost!

Well done Scroggs!