B737 NG Dive and drive

[ndegepilot]

I am looking for some advice from the exponents of the dive and drive non-precision approach procedures as applicable to the B737 NG and in particular how you operate the MCP and fly the published missed approach.
The approach I am looking at is the VOR/DME for RWY 34L at Tokyo Haneda. For those who are not familar with the approach I will do my best to describe it.
The procedure commences from the KZE VOR at 3000' (KZE is on approx. the 151Radial from the HME VOR). The procedure is based on the HME VOR which is sited on the upwind end of the airfield (important beacuse of the go-around), the inbound course is 331 and the MDA is 640'. The "V" point is 3.8 DME from the HME VOR, or 1.8 nm from the ruway threshold, and the MAP point is the the HME VOR, and from the elevation view of the Jeppesen, demands that you continue in level flight, which is your MDA of 640', until reaching the HME VOR then commencing a climbing left turn onto the 177 Radial and 4500'. Just to cap it all this has to be hand flown so PNF or PM is operating the MCP for you.
So here are my more specific questions:-
Before leaving the KZE VOR would you set the MCP to 700' (being the closest that you can get to to the MDA of 640') or would you wind it up to the 4500' which is your MAP altitude? Obviously ensuring that you are in ALT HOLD, and obviously ensuring that you have set your minimums to 640' on your PFD, and mindful that you can V/S "away" from your MCP altitude selection.
How would you handle the go-around if you see nothing at the "V" point? Pressing TOGA is going to ask you to climb immediately to your MCP set alt. of 4500' contrary to the published procedure which states that the go-around commences at the HME VOR. Would you leave yourself with the gear and flaps down, and then hit TOGA at the HME VOR, or would you speed up and clean up, and then hit LVL CHG at the HME VOR?
Yes this is a sim. evaluation for a job, so I can't just ask the training dept. And as one who has done most of my flying in Europe, Africa and the ME I have always been taught to do the constant path descents.
Thanks in advance.

[OzExpat]

I'm not going to get into a "dive and drive" discussion because I don't favour it, least of all in a high performance passenger jet. But what on earth gives you the idea that you can't start climbing in the missed approach until reaching the MAP (HME VOR)? That's just plain wrong - of course you can start climbing away before then.

The first fact from your scenario is that you are using a runway-aligned VOR/DME approach. You need to be clear, from the outset, whether this is to be used as a runway approach, or a circling approach.

If it's a circling approach, yes I would probably maintain the CIRCLING MDA until the MAP - subject to any circling restrictions that might be evident on the chart. If it's a runway approach, there's no point in maintaining the lower RWY approach MDA beyond the "V" point because you'll be above the 3-degree descent path to the runway and, potentially, not stabilised for the descent to the runway. Therefore, at MDA and at the "V" point, I'd go missed approach if I couldn't see anything.

[john_tullamarine]

Indeed, so long as one tracks the missed approach with rigour (to an appropriate height) and advises ATC etc. for traffic, there ought to be no concern with commencing the miss at any time during the approach ?

[alexban]

'missed approach segment

That part of an instrument approach procedure (IAP) between the missed approach point (MAP), the missed approach waypoint (MAWP), or the point of arrival at decision height (DH), and the specified missed approach NAVAID, intersection, fix or waypoint, as appropriate, at the minimum IFR altitude. It is in this part of the approach procedure that the aircraft climbs and returns to the en route structure or is positioned for holding or a subsequent approach. The route of flight and altitudes are depicted on instrument approach charts.'

the definition may be find herei: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/RegServ/terminology/glossary/m.htm#missed_approach_point

from this you can assume that you are allowed to climb ,only after reaching the MAP...?

[ndegepilot]

Thanks for all the replies so far.
OzExpat; I too am no fan of the dive & drive approach and as I mention in my initial post I have always been taught to fly a NPA on a constant path descent down to a DH (calculated as the MDA+50') and if nothing is seen to go-around. Just like an ILS. The reason I mention that the MAP is at the HME VOR is because it is in the text on the Jeppessen (MAP at HME VOR) and also it shows it diagramatically in the elevation view part of the chart. It seems daft, I am not sure hence my question. Also it is a straight-in approach not an approach to a circling approach. (Sorry if I didin't make that bit clear earlier).
John T I agree with you ref. the missed approach, and in the real world I have a fair idea of how I would be setting up the approach aids, and how I would fly the approach and the missed approach if necessary. Unfortuantely this is not a real world scenario but a sim. assessment ride.
All other views and opinions gratefully received.

[InSoMnIaC]

alexban

the definition u posted for the missed approach segment tells me that if an aircraft is in that segment it would be climbing up to the missed approach altitude.

It is in this part of the approach procedure that the aircraft climbs and returns to the en route structure or is positioned for holding or a subsequent approach

it does not say " it is where the aircraft 'commences' a climb".

It is at the start of that segment that the missed approach climb gradient is calculated.. ie the latest point u should start climbing

[InSoMnIaC]

ndegepilot - How would you handle the go-around if you see nothing at the "V" point? Pressing TOGA is going to ask you to climb immediately to your MCP set alt. of 4500' contrary to the published procedure which states that the go-around commences at the HME VOR.

As was stated earlier u can climb before u reach HME VOR as long as u fly to HME the follow the MAP track.

Hypothetically however if u wanted to stay at MDA until HME u always have the options of either setting 700' in MCP alt and after ALT HOLD set MAP altitude in MCP alt.

or u can initially set MAP altitude in MCP alt selector and when reaching 700 press ALT HOLD on the MCP. This mean u will level off at 700' and when u reach HME go around with TOGA. (easy to forget and descend below MDA.. not a good idea)

[OzExpat]

Spot on, john_t and InSoMnIaC! :ok:

For the benefit of those who don't know (and sometimes that includes folks who conduct sim checks! :uhoh: ), the MAP is the LATEST point at which the missed approach MUST be commenced, in order to ensure obstacle clearance at the minimum gradient (usually 2.5%, but can be steeper - subject to certain other conditions that I won't bore you with).

I see nothing wrong, even in a sim check, in going missed approach at the V point because, if you become visual at any point after that, you'll be too high on the profile for a stabilised descent.

The only thing to keep in mind about going missed approach before reaching the MAP, as pointed out by InSoMnIaC, is to follow the final approach track to the MAP before making any turns required by the missed approach procedure.

[ndegepilot]

Thanks for your replies OzExpat and InSoMnIaC.
So we are all agreed that the lateral part of the Missed Approach Procedure must be flown as published to ensure terrain clearance or other requirement, and I can find FAA/TERPS references to that effect.
What I can't find is the definition as to when, or where, you should, or must comply with the vertical part of the Missed Approach Procedure.
I totally agree that having passed the "V" point which is 1.8nm from the threshold and at 640', any attempt to land after that point is going to result in an unstable approach, it is also equally daft to then continue to fly straight and level for a further 3.8nm to the HME VOR at 640' before commencing a climb as part of the MAP! However that is the written word on the chart!
I acknowlege this is all something of an academic exercise but if I am asked the question at either the briefing or de-briefing I would like to be confident I have the correct answer.

[brad]

If you wait untill you are past the v point and at the map I think it gives you a little time to regroup and plan the missed approach procedures.

[OzExpat]

In many countries, the practice has been to produce a chart that clearly shows the lowest level in every segment. This was done, I think, to provide an element of transparency in design to the end-users of the chart, so that they can see exactly how far they can fly level in each segment. Of more recent times, however, it's been suggested that this type of depiction - especially at MDA - could contribute to CFIT.

Thus, ICAO (I don't know if FAA's TERPs is following suit on this) has changed the charting standard to show a 3-degree profile from the FAF to the TCH, with an indication of DME distance and distance to THR, in the Profile View. The procedure line runs level from that distance to the MAP and, while this could be regarded as an almost self-defeating strategy, I interpret it as being related to the circling MDA because, for sure, if you go beyond that "V" point, you better be at the Circling MDA because the only manoeuvres that are truly safe beyond it are circling or missed approach.

Others disagree with me on this because the procedure clearly shows that the Straight-in MDA can be maintained all the way to the MAP. No denying that, of course, but there's no benefit in so doing because if you get visual after the "V" point, the only thing you can do is circle and, as Straight-In MDA is never going to be higher than the Circling MDA, you can't legally circle at the Straight-in MDA. This is the rationale for my interpretation and I hope it makes sense after a long, hard day...