Advise on joining/finding group aircraft

[coodem]

I have recently passed my PPL and wish to join a group share. Now I see so many options. Capital, no capital. How many members is just right.

I would like something cheap to run. My budget is around £15k for the share, Spend around £80 per month the fixed fees and then around £70 wet. But if cheaper will also be OK

I don't really want any nasty surprises

Can anyone tell me good places to look for group shares?

I have around 55 hours at the moment, is this going to be a problem, should I just carry on renting, till I get closer to the 100 hour mark.

Most my flying will be done during the week, But would want to do the occasional weekend flight.

What sort of aircraft should I be looking at? So far I have been looking at Piper Warriors, Katana DV-20. I prefer low wings, although I did all my training on a Cessna 150.

Also been toying with the idea of a ULA. Jab, Ikarus, Evektor Eurostar.

My initial plan was to purchase a ULA myself, but when I saw the fixed costs, I soon changed my mind. I think I need a few more hours for insurance to drop.

Any other ideas, feel free to comment. I currently fly in the Watford/Elstree area, and don't really want to travel more then 30 minutes

Thanking you all

[A and C]

You will want to expand your flying so a four seat aircraft is most likely what you would want, as a first group aircraft I would advise a PA28 or C172.

Check the state of the group bank account vs the time left on the engine and then go and talk to the company that maintains the aircraft.
Remember an engine overhaul may only cost £9000 but by the time the engine is back in the airframe the bill will be about £15000 inc VAT.

[IO540]

A 15k budget is nice, and being able to fly on weekdays makes for good access to any shared aircraft.

I'd define the mission first.

If you want to bimble, the choice is wide. If you want to move forward in mission capability i.e. get the IMC Rating, fly further out (into Europe), maybe do an IR one day, that's very different and you need to choose the plane and (more importantly) the existing shareholders more carefully.

Shares can be hard to sell; often they take years to shift especially if, as is common, the group is falling apart over a disagreement over which bits of "unnecessary" avionics etc should be fixed.

[BroomstickPilot]

Coodem,

I am approaching the same point that you have already reached. It is, however, part of my personal approach to look well ahead and do quite a lot of odd bits of information gathering well in advance of my actually needing the information. I have been looking at group ownership for some time.

One thing I have learned is that group ownership, while being by far the most cost-effective way to obtain your flying once you have a PPL (unless you are 'loaded'), is nevertheless a potential minefield.

I believe that the choice of people to share with is at least as important as the choice of aeroplane. Likewise, the particular terms and conditions of membership of the group.

There are books written on the subject of aircraft ownership, which include group ownership. Certainly, there have been numerous magazine articles on the subject that are all worth tracking down.

AOPA used to have a book on aircraft ownership. They also had a standard form of agreement document for ownership groups, which would be a useful yardstick against which to judge any agreement you are asked to sign. All this is worth tracking down.

Are you friendly with any of the instructors at your home aerodrome? These people usually know which are the good groups and good aeroplanes and are worth tapping for information. Likewise the engineer who runs the on-site workshop (if there is one).

'Hope this helps.

Broomstick.

[IO540]

Based on my own experience I'd be just a little careful asking instructors. A lot of them have an axe to grind.... like helping a good mate to get shot of his share in some troubled syndicate.

I will never forget the old and highly experienced and knowledgeable instructor who offered me a 1/8 share in a Private CofA plane and saying I could finish my IMC Rating in it. That was half of it; the other half was that it was illegal for IFR in controlled airspace, on several separate counts.

[coodem]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So where is the best place to start looking for shares, apart from the usual places like flying mags and around the clubhouse.

Is it usual to have any max hours restrictions per member, assuming the member does not stop other members from flying?

What would be about the right hourly wet rate for a Warrior 160 or Cessna 172. From what I see, the price has a very varied range. Now instinct tells you to go for the cheapest, but then one day the aircraft will require a new engine, and if there is no money, I guess all the members will have to fork out a chunk of dosh. Now there might be some that can't afford it, or say to themselves thay have only flown 10 hours in the last year and why should they have to fork out £3k.

I came accross a zero capital share in a katana DV20, with an option to fly a Piper Warrior

The monthly cost is £50, then £45 ph wet for the Katana and the option to fly a Warrior at £68 per hour wet. Is this about the going rate? or too good to be true.

The aircraft is in the right location and have emailed the person to try get more info.

How do most people feel about low hour PPL's?

Should I look for a group with an instructor, or can the easily be found, I intend to get an IMC, and like the idea of going out as often as possible in the early days to make sure I don't pick up any bad habbits

Not really sure what sort of flying I will end up doing. But I do fancy being able to go places after I get a bit more experience. But I also like the idea of some mild aerobatics (I know a Piper won't do any, but right now I feel I have enough to learn about normal flying before trying to think about aero's)

[18greens]

Taking your questions in no particular order:

Look in the back of magazines or club notice boards for shares.

Your Katana/warrior syndicate sounds great. No capital ususally means no bills!!! Remember in most syndicates the definition of the limit of your liability is what you put in. If you are in a syndicate and a big bill arrives you will be expected to chip in your share, or forfeit your share. Look on the bright side , you only get to see 1/4th or 1/10th or 1/16th of the bill, an absolute bargain!! We needed a new engine once, it cost us £700 each, not too bad.

White Waltham has lots of good shares. Theres a couple of 16 man cherokees there that run very well.

I have never heard of a group that has availability problems. Most have utility problems. The more they fly the cheaper it is. School planes do an average of 600 hours per year, most syndicate planes struggle to hit 200.
If you want to do an IMC use a school plane. Syndicate planes do not usually pay attention to keeping the IMC instruments working.

As for budget £15,000 is way too much. You'll end up with a share that is very hard to sell. I would start with a £2000 ish share, get your 100 hours ish, sell the share, do the IMC then buy a share in a Yak52 (again lots at WW) and do aeros!!! Then either give up flying or become an instructor/airline pilot.

Eirther way , with your attitude you will get a lot of flying and have a lot of fun.