Crosswind landing control error???

[european champion]

When i touch down on a cross wind landing i seem to have problem some times keeping the aircraft straight for the first few metres.
I try to identify if i make a mistake in controlling the aircraft,perhaps the moment of touch down i dont keep the rudders neutral?Any suggestions?

[john_tullamarine]

... ah ... why would you want the rudders neutral (by this I presume you mean centralised) ?

Next time try flying the aircraft all the way to a full stop and your problems will likely go away ... just make the aircraft do what you require of it.

[Tinstaafl]

May I suggest you forget about trying to keep the rudder anywhere in particular. Focus instead on using whatever footwork you need keep the nose pointed where you want. If the nose isn't pointing where you want from one moment to the next then use more foot pressure on the appropriate side to put it there. Some exercises focusing on this with an instructor would help as would getting tailwheel training.

[european champion]

Thanks for your replies.When i say i notice to lose control of the aircraft i mean at the exact moment of the touchdown,it seems that the aircraft for one second has the tendency to yaw to one side,thats why i assume that probably i should keep the rudders neutral(i mean centralised),otherwise when the nosewheel touches down and its turned on one side the aircraft will want to turn on that side also,isnt it?

[VNAVSPD]

I assume this is a light aircraft?

at the exact moment of the touchdown,it seems that the aircraft for one second has the tendency to yaw to one side

This is probably because the longitudinal axis of the aircraft is not aligned with the direction in which you're traveling. Or, to put it another way, you are touching down with some drift. As soon as the main wheels touch down, the aircraft will want to go in whichever direction they are pointing. If you don't squeeze out enough drift with the rudder, then you will get the feeling that the aircraft is darting off to one side, or it may 'skip' sideways if you haven't got the into wind wing down.

Which method of crosswind landing do you use?

[european champion]

I use the one wing low technique.I usually have no problem coming on the centreline,its just at the moment of touchdown that i feel the aircraft want to turn,thats why i assume that the nosewheel is not pointing straight at the touchdown.

[issi noho]

It's been said already, the aircraft should be aligned with the center-line at touchdown and the center-line maintained throughout the landing roll. the exact position of the controls will be whatever was required for the conditions on any given day. Fly with an instructor for a little consolidation training, they can also show you other techniques. Learning shouldn't end with licence issue, that holds true whichever licence you hold.

[GlueBall]

The 747 MLG [body & wing gears] are actually stressed to take touchdown in a grab, if necessary. It's more important to keep the wings level with low wing airplanes than it is to land perfectly straight during touchdown.

[Pilot Pete]

The 747 MLG [body & wing gears] are actually stressed to take touchdown in a grab, if necessary. Is that called the 'smash and grab' landing technique?;)

PP

[petitfromage]

90% of these sorts of problems are primarily to do with where you are looking and only secondly your technique.

There is little doubt in my mind that you are in fact landing with some 'crab' still on. (Despite you attempt at the wing down technique).

Quite a lot of rudder is required to truely align the nose with the runway. I say quite a lot....I mean, more than you'd often think!

No doubt you think your getting the nose straight? But where are you looking? If you looking 10-20m in front of the aircraft (or closer) you'll not be giving yourself a fighting chance.

Get your eyes up, all the way to the end of the runway. This help you assess the drift so much better.

"Squeeze" the nose straight, when dropping the wing. Dont kick it.....as this will cause roll & drift and confuse you.

Once on the ground the aircraft will try to 'weather-cock' into wind. The wind hitting the tail/rudder pushes the nose around.
You will need to keep rudder applied to keep straight. Do not centralise the rudders.

Last as the nose wheel touches the aircrafts tricycle stability will try to oppose the crosswind/weather cock effect. You will need to reduce the rudder momentarily and then re-apply some as you slow down.

A slight yawing tendency at touchdown is quite normal....so long as you dont sling yourself off the runway!

At altitude, practice keeping the nose pointing at a cloud or hill in the distance (while cross wind/dropping the wing).
Keep your eyes far ahead and 'feel' how much force you have of the rudder.
Try this at various speeds, with and without flap.

I think you'll soon realise that:
a. youre looking too close and,
b. the rudder force required is more than you think!

Good luck.

PS. Dony be silly playing with this at altitude. Keep to 'normal' IAS limits etc. Crossing the controls too much & too slow can cause the aircraft to stall and flick/autorotate/spin. (It depends on your aircraft...so please ask the instructors you know)

[Intruder]

When i say i notice to lose control of the aircraft i mean at the exact moment of the touchdown,it seems that the aircraft for one second has the tendency to yaw to one side,thats why i assume that probably i should keep the rudders neutral(i mean centralised),otherwise when the nosewheel touches down and its turned on one side the aircraft will want to turn on that side also,isnt it?
If you touch down correctly in a tricycle gear airplane, the position of the nosewheel has NO effect at the "exact moment of touchdown," because it is not on the ground! With the nosewheel in the air, the rudder is your primary control for yaw. Therefore, you must FLY THE AIRPLANE! The normal control input is wing down into the wind, and "top" rudder (toward the high wing side) to keep the fuselage aligned with the runway. That technique works for all airplanes from an Aeronca Champ (yes, tailwheel airplanes behave similarly) to a Cessna 172 to a 747-400 (all of which I have flown).

As you lower the nosewheel to the ground, continue to FLY THE AIRPLANE to keep it on the runway centerline. It worked for me yesterday when landing in a 15 knot crosswind on 04R at JFK in a 747-200 with a bad #2 engine, and it will work for you tomorrow in a Cessna 150 on a grass strip! There may be a momentary "nudge" from the nosewheel as it touches down, but you merely use the rudder pedals as necessary to keep the airplane on the centerline.

Don't be afraid to use your feet!

[european champion]

To be more precise when i say i notice to lose control on 'touchdown' i mean when the nosewheel touches down,usually this happens about one second or less after the main wheels touch down,sometimes almost simultaneously.
I believe the problem is that i still keep one of the rudders pushed in when the nose wheel touches the ground,that causes the airplane want to rotate because the logitudinal axis is straight but the nosewheel is turned on one side,thats why i think i should centralise the rudders just before the nosewheel touches down.

[Intruder]

I believe that the problem is that you are not controlling the drop of the nose after landing. It is a common problem among new pilots: They stop flying the airplane when the main gear touch down.

Again, you must continue flying the airplane all the way down the runway. If you have been taught "full stall" landings, you flare so that you try to hold the airplane just off the runway -- just a few inches in the air -- with slowly increasing back pressure on the yoke. The airplane will eventually touch down, but you still keep the back pressure on as long as the rudder is effective as well as increasing aileron into the wind to keep the wings level. At the airspeed your instructor recommends, slowly lower the nose until the nosewheel touches down, and continue to use the rudder as necessary to keep the airplane on centerline.

Since you should touch down with the upwind mainwheel first in a crosswind, you will keep the aileron input in at touchdown and adjust it as necessary to keep the upwind wing from lifting after the downwind mainwheel touches down.

When you are proficient, you will be able to roll for a while with only the upwind mainwheel on the runway, controlling the airplane with aileron, rudder, and power as necessary. For now, though, concentrate on controlling the airplane all the way to a complete stop.

[Kiwiguy]

To be more precise when i say i notice to lose control on 'touchdown' i mean when the nosewheel touches down,usually this happens about one second or less after the main wheels touch down,sometimes almost simultaneously.


To be honest it sounds as if you haven't consolodated landing techniques very much at all. It sounds for a start like you really don't flare the aircraft so much as drive onto the runway. I suspect you must balloon quite often or use excessive runway. Don't be frightened of the aeroplane. Make it do what you want.

Same with crosswinds... You're the boss. My home port of Wellington has some hairy crosswinds. I've landed with 50 knot crosswind before, far in excess of what the manual said. In high winds there's often a boundary layer across the runway which smoothes the wind just before touchdown so don't let turbulence freak you. Don't roll the plane, or lower the lee wing, or you could cause other problems.

Find a windy airport and take a plane up when the weather is a dog. It's an uncomfortable feeling trying to kick hard rudder and flare at the same time, but you need heaps of practice until it becomes natural, or else you're going to harm someone.

[issi noho]

You're getting lots of advice here, I can see where all of it is coming from, but to be frank I don't really understand your problem and I'm not sure about anybody else. I cant see any reason for centring rudder, you will require rudder input to remain aligned during the roll out (weather cock effect). Look at the far end of he runway (best advice you'll get about landing except on some water)

What you do really need is a coach, You'll never see a tennis pro or any sports pro for that matter without a coach. You are too close to the action to best see a way through. Find somebody with talent whom you trust to fly with you for a couple of hours round the circuit on the right day and let them pick the bones out of your actions. Prepare to be broken down and built up again. You may have some preconceptions which got you to where you are now but are stopping your progression.

[european champion]

You are right i do get a lot of advice,thank you guys, but i still seem to have some doubts about whether the nosewheel should be straight at the exact moment of touchdown or not.
Issi Noho you are right,i need to get a coach,this way he can make an observation at the moment of a touchdown when the plane is nicely under control if the rudders at that time are centralised or not,i guess if im too close to the action it is difficult for me to judge.

[Kiwiguy]

European Champion, perhaps you've never landed in any serious crosswinds during your training ?

If you're working as a pilot then you need to take some personal initiative and do some homework on your own time, privately. Find a windy airport and get an instructor to take you up for crosswind practice. I suspect the crosswinds that you have landed in previously may have been too mild for you to form a proper feel for what is happening.

Forget the nosewheel. If you flare properly the nosewheel should not be anywhere near the ground. Let that take care of itself. You are worrying about irrelevant matters. You don't try to steer at touchdown with the nosewheel do you ?

It is not about centering the rudder. You turn the plane to centre the aircraft on the runway just before touchdown.

If you're doing it properly you should be crabbing into the wind until after crossing the threshold. By this point (still flying) you will be pointing off the runway towards the grass verge and feeling a little bit worried.

You should be worried because if you strike the ground pointing like this you will not roll out on the runway properly and might even run off.

Then at the point when you need to flare, give a hefty kick on the rudder to turn the aircraft towards the runway. Just keeping rudder neutral is not correct. Do not roll the aircraft at the runway. Kick rudder towards the runway to face it.

Go get some real practice with an instructor.

[InSoMnIaC]

Kiwiguy - If you're doing it properly you should be crabbing into the wind until after crossing the threshold. By this point (still flying) you will be pointing off the runway towards the grass verge and feeling a little bit worried.

You should be worried because if you strike the ground pointing like this you will not roll out on the runway properly and might even run off.

Then at the point when you need to flare, give a hefty kick on the rudder to turn the aircraft towards the runway. Just keeping rudder neutral is not correct. Do not roll the aircraft at the runway. Kick rudder towards the runway to face it.

Good advice but initially i would suggest that u decrab the aircraft much ealier on final. Ie enter a sideslip by applying rudder to align the nose with the centerline (check whole length of centerline to see if you are aligned) and use the airlerons to stay on the centerline.

your rudder position should stay pretty much constant at this point (as long as xwind doesnt change). just make slight adjustments with the airlerons (more or less bank to stop drifting off the centerline.) Fly it down all the way like this.

By setting this up early u have more time to experience how it should look.

as you get more experienced you will find it easier to decrab the aircraft on short final.

don't worry about the nosewheel on touchdown. your goal is to keep the aircraft on the centerline. the nosewheel will sort itself out.

[low n' slow]

Best advice I've seen so far ono this thread is:

Keep flying the plane once on ground. If there is such a strong wind that it requires you to think of your technique, you must also consider what happens to the plane when on ground. Most common mistake I think is forgetting all about controlcollumn input after touchdown. Roll fully into the wind and keep the collumn fully back. That works for me. Make it a standard to fly the plane whilst taxiing with respect to the wind ie. roll into the wind, elevator upp in headwind and elevator down in a tailwind. This makes you more conscious that you need to keep on flying the plane on ground. And as I said, in most situations where you have to think of crosswind landing technique, you need to do this to not have the plane affected to much whilst taxiing.

Most of all though, practice!!! Crosswind landings are really fun to do once you get the hang of it, especially the wingdown technique. Land one wheel at a time to maintian centerline.

happy flying/ LnS

[Pilot Pete]

..... and keep the collumn fully back.

Be careful with that technique as you could get into difficulties in some types.:ok:

PP

[low n' slow]

Ok, yeah, perhaps it doesn't apply on all types, but at least roll fully into the wind to land the downwind gear, then land the nose.

/LnS

[Intruder]

Still not good advice in general...

The key is to FLY THE AIRPLANE! Use whatever amount of control input it takes to fly straight down the centerline with the wings level (after both main gear are on the ground). While full aileron input may be appropriate for many small taildraggers, it may not be appropriate for an airplane with powerful ailerons in a crosswind that doesn't approach its limits.

[2close]

Low 'n' slow,

I was taught roll in to a headwind with the column back but roll out of a tailwind with the column forward. The rationale of this is that if you have a quartering tailwind the column turned to the opposite direction and forward would deflect both the into-wind aileron and the elevator downwards presenting the upper control surfaces to the prevailing wind, thus preventing the wind from that side from getting under them.

[Intruder]

The tailwind correction you advocate is proper ONLY when the tailwind is REALLY a tailwind -- the airplane is moving slower than the tailwind component! It is a proper technique for taxiing a taildragger. However, if you try that right at touchdown with a "quartering tailwind," you'll have a high probability of a big mess on your hands...

Repeat after me one more time: FLY THE AIRPLANE!

[2close]

Oops. I've c***ed up again.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent. I was referring to taxiiing only, not landing.

[european champion]

Is it normal then at the point when the nose wheel touches the ground to have a strong yaw tendency?
I believe this tendency is because the nosewheel touches the ground while its turned in an angle and the way to stop this tendency is to centralise rudders just before the touchdown.

[skywerd]

Hey Champion:
I assume you are speaking of a PA-28, or something that also has nosegear steering that is directly connected to the rudder. I have seen this happen many times, but must reiterate the advice given by others, in that you must fly the airplane all the way to the tiedown.
One thing I might add, however, is the role of ailerons in a crosswind landing. Make sure you keep that aileron pressure in throughout the landing. As a matter of fact, as the speed slows and control effectiveness decreases, aileron deflection should increase.
The aileron pressure might help your problem just a bit, as it keeps firm pressure on the upwind landing gear and also adds a bit of adverse yaw that keeps you from having to use so much rudder.
I think someone else already said it, but some tailwheel time can work miracles for those of us who fly "flying milkstools" predominantly. Tailwheel aircraft tend to make our problems appear miniscule.
And FYI, the swept wing jet I fly is quite the handful in a crosswind landing. Use of controls on crosswind landing is just as critical as it ever was in a light aircraft, except that the ailerons require a lot more exertion on the part of the pilots.
Hope this helps you,
Skywerd:ok:

[AerocatS2A]

It would help if you stated what aircraft you are flying. Is it a B747? Or a C152? or what?

[european champion]

Im talking about light aircraft,e.g. PA-28,C-210.

[issi noho]

Are you from Liverpool? Check if you are missing a wheel.

Sorry, have you had any opportunity to either try some the hints you've been given or fly with an instructor?

[low n' slow]

I've had a whole day of crosswind landings and I kept this thread in mind.
What it comes down to as has been discussed previously is the basic: keep on flying the plane. I missed this several times today, why I've got no idea. It's really easy to act as a charter passenger and clap you hands and cheer as soon as you get on ground. Keep on flying the plane and things should work out. If it still doesnt help, perhaps you're exeeding the crosswind limit?

/LnS

[Bomber Harris]

EU Champ,

you have asked a question a few times now (should the nosewheel be straight on touchdown?) and nobody has really addressed it. Thats because it's not important. However, to get rid of the gremlins you are harbouring I will try address it.

If you taxi in a crosswind you will have to apply a small amount of steering to keep the aircraft straight, because the nosewheel effectively "scubbs". That is, because of sideways pressure the nosewheel has a bit of "drift" on it.

When you touch down you need rudder to compensate for the crosswind, which you are obviously familiar with.

Now this is the bit that you need to understand once, then forget forever: Designers build the aircraft so that the approximate amount of rudder you require at touchdown speed (or lift off speed) is about the same as the amount of nosewheel steering displacement required. Now remember that the rudder still works on the runway (at speed) but the nosewheel doesn't work in the air. The designers use a best compromise for rigging the nose wheel versus the rudder but it will never be perfect.

So IT IS OK to have rudder/nosewheel defection during nosewheel touchdown. But the important point is that before NW touchdown you have the nose pointing at the end of the runway with whatever defelection is required and after NW touchdown you have the nose pointing at the end of the runway with whatever defelection is required.

Another small tech note is that if you fly a standard cessna or piper series aircraft, the nose wheel steering is disengaged from the rudders when the nose is extended (or hanging down because you are in the air). When the nose wheel strut compresses it engages the steering mechanism. It is quite possible if you fly only one aircraft that this engagement process is a bit aggressive. Also, it is possible that the nose wheel is not rigged perfectly.

But this does not matter. You are not an engineer. You are a pilot. You must concentrate on applying whatever rudder is necessary to maintain runway alignment. This is the challenge of flying different and sometime querky aircraft.

I have basically said the same thing as everyone else but approached from a technical point of view. Some people prefer that type of explanation. Some people think it's over the top......anyway thanks for reading if you got this far!!!

[Tarq57]

Read the above again, (By BomberHarris) with reference to para 6, the nosewheel disengages from the steering when extended. (cessna and piper singles).
It suggests that you are lowering the nosewheel too rapidly, or letting it hit the ground of its own accord.
When it first touches, if done gently enough, it will free-caster, and as the oleo compresses, so the nosewheel steering will engage.
When I did a Beagle pup rating, I found x/winds a bugger at the point of nosewheel touchdown. The aeroplane is extremely controllable, but I couldn't avoid some side-force on the nosegear when it touched in a decent crosswind. My instructor said not to worry about it too much. That said, there is repeated advice above to keep flying the aeroplane. Do it.
Solve the problem once and for all by flyng an AA5.Fully castering nosewheel.

[european champion]

Thanks Bomber,you are right some people need more technical explanation,now everything seems clear to me.