JAR PPL outside Europe - why?

[Kaptain Kremen]

Hi y'all.

Reading the latest edition of Pilot, in the editor column Nick Bloom is discussing the general decline in PPL training and that some schools are reporting a lean time.
He then asks those successful schools to basically give away their secrets of success. Surely if it is that lean a time, no school is going to risk losing what few studes they have by telling their rivals!?
Aaaaanyway....

Main point of my thread. Maybe if JAA stopped allowing JAR PPL training outside of Europe, e.g the USA, then that would help a fair bit?

If the US schools, through whatever economical benfits, are able to offer cut price JAR PPL training then obviously the customer in the UK will be a lot less likely to choose a UK school. Not really a level playing field for good honest competition is it? You may as well stop training in the UK and franchise the lot to the US.

Seems to me like a bit of a kick in the teeth for JAA schools in Europe.

Standing by for verbal kicking.......:sad:

KK
PS Notice I am avoiding the "quality" issue too, thats not meant for this discussion.

[OpenCirrus619]

Showing my age:

It's KREMMEN!!!!

OC619

[windriver]

Showing my age:

It's KREMMEN!!!!

OC619

The same Captain Kremmen with a detachable big toe that converts into a space cannon.?

[OpenCirrus619]

Yes, but it HAS to be the one you had to use a little imagination with. I think the TV version spoilt it (in the same way as the original HitchHikers on the wireless was the best :ok:).

http://www.stephensykes.com/images/kremmen.jpg

OC619

P.S. The cartoon Carla wasn't a patch on the Carla I imagined :E

[Kaptain Kremen]

oc169
sorry about the spelling mistake....showing my age !:}

[OpenCirrus619]

Touché. Or should it be "Ouch, I asked for that" ;)

OC619

[windriver]

Main point of my thread. Maybe if JAA stopped allowing JAR PPL training outside of Europe, e.g the USA, then that would help a fair bit?

Sorry.. Kaptain.. we hijacked your thread here... which was a bit naughty as it's quite an interesting one.

I haven`t seen the pilot article, but for a long time I`ve argued that there is a case for flying schools/clubs developing a product range that can be delivered not only to students/members/clients in the conventional way, but also to the general public who have no desire to fly, but want to be part of the scene.

In other words keeping the money coming in (on and off site) even when there is no flying going on.... This (radical approach?) could reduce the flying rates thus driving up standards and activity.

[Mike Cross]

Maybe if JAA stopped allowing JAR PPL training outside of Europe, e.g the USA, then that would help a fair bit?

Instead of proposing unfair and discriminatory practices why not tackle some of the reasons behind the issue?

JAR do not require instructors for the PPL working at a Registered Facility to hold a professional licence, yet the CAA does (and a Class 1 as a result).
Similarly JAR lay down requirements for the aerodrome but do not require it to be licensed, yet the CAA does.

A PPL(M) candidate can be taught by a remunerated PPL(FI) on an unlicensed field in an aircraft with greater performance than the average club trainer and can hire a microlight for solo flight. When he gets his PPL he can no longer hire the same aircraft. Has it become less airworthy or more likely to plummet as a result of his qualification?

A PPL(A) candidate can also be taught by a PPL(FI) but cannot pay him. He has to be taught at a licensed field and if hired the aircraft has to be maintained to Transport standards. If it's not hired it doesn't, it can even be on a Permit. Why does hiring make the aircraft less airworthy? Why does remuneration (in the case of PPL training) require a CPL and Class 1? What is the safety case?

UK registered aircraft have their airworthiness certified under either National (Permit, non-EASA and Warbirds) or ICAO compliant standards. If its airworthiness is certified under National Standards is it less airworthy? If not why is it subject to restrictions?

Why does the CAA mandate modifications to aircraft that are not required by other National Authorities? Given that the fatal accident rate in the UK is some 5% worse than that in the US it doesn't seem to provide any enhanced safety.

OK, provocative questions but all things that increase costs. If you load clubs, schools, instructors, maintainers, FI's, owners and students with unwarranted costs it's likely to lead to decline.
(Ducks below the parapet in anticipation)

Mike

[windriver]

OK, provocative questions but all things that increase costs. If you load clubs, schools, instructors, maintainers, FI's, owners and students with unwarranted costs it's likely to lead to decline.
(Ducks below the parapet in anticipation)

Mike
A thoughtful and well argued post.

Not sure why you want to duck below the parapet though as in my view all your arguments stand up to scrutiny.

Whether we like it or not Flying Training/GA is the same as any other business and within the bounds of safe operations partcipants should where appropriate fight loud and hard to prevent these often irrelevant and almost always anti competitive 'stealth costs.'

In my previous post I suggested that notwithstanding the above FTO's probably need to diversify not only to increase income but to make GA more accessible to the general public.

As a parting shot and with tongue lightly in cheek I recommend an addition to the PPL syllabus. Industry Awareness. 2 x 1 Hr briefings.

The first session teaches them just what's involved (behind the scenes) before an aircraft ever gets airborne and the threats that face the industry. The role of bodies such as AOPA should be explained in context.

The second session is about PR and how they can contribute to positively raising the profile (and thus profitability and influence) of GA.

Hopefully the movement as a whole would then be in a better position to rise up and fight to protect their rights.

Any room under your parapet?

[rjt194]

As a parting shot and with tongue lightly in cheek I recommend an addition to the PPL syllabus. Industry Awareness. 2 x 1 Hr briefings.

The first session teaches them just what's involved (behind the scenes) before an aircraft ever gets airborne and the threats that face the industry. The role of bodies such as AOPA should be explained in context.

The second session is about PR and how they can contribute to positively raising the profile (and thus profitability and influence) of GA.

Hopefully the movement as a whole would then be in a better position to rise up and fight to protect their rights.

Any room under your parapet?

Why is everyone hiding???

As a student PPL, I would love to have a better clue of where I fit into things than I currently do, so I think briefings of this kind can only be good. I know about the PFA and CAA simply because I have to for Air Law. Anything beyond that and its what you find out for yourself.

Knowing what support structure is there for those of use who aren't aiming at the airlines (yes, we do exist) might also go someway to reducing the post PPL drop out rate. Its very easy to get the feeling that the schools are interested when you're after your license or a rating, but for anything else you're pretty much on your own. Encouraging people to keep flying can only be a good thing - both for safety, but also profile raising. If we're flying then maybe, just maybe, we're talking about it with our friends and colleagues (what did you do this weekend? I flew to *insert favourite destination here*), or even better taking them with us.

Raising the profile of GA is vital. How many people know that the vast majority of aircraft movements in this country are GA? The answer is outside of the GA community, virtually no-one. Commercial aviation is high profile and big money and as such has mind share (and therefore influence).

Briefings for PPLs is a good place to start. But how about briefings for flying schools, clubs, aerodrome owners and operators on how they can positively increase their profiles in their communities. How do/can we positively benefit these communities (and the country in general)? Can we get to position GA has in other countries where it is considered a positive part of the community and (importantly I think) part of the transport infrastructure? Build up links with schools/colleges/youth groups. Get PPL and RT groundschool on the list of adult education subjects in community colleges. Maybe basic aircraft maintenance courses (aimed at permit and private CoA owners).

But if you really want to stop people going Stateside for their training (and hour building), then we must do something about GA's - and in particular FTO's - image of being the expensive poor relation. It costs more per hour to learn to fly than it does to fly to just about anywhere on the continent. I can hire a car for a week that is neater, cleaner and more comfortable than most aircraft in use for training. Its not about steam or glass panel - it's about the general state of the aircraft. It looks like a 30 year old rust bucket (even though it isn't) with its tatty interior, instead of looking like a well cared for vintage car.

Hearts and minds... it's all about image (unfortunately).

Now... what was the question again? :}

[windriver]

I couldn`t agree more....

Get PPL and RT groundschool on the ist of adult education subjects in community colleges.

Just as point of interest I used to do this a while ago... the adult education stuff was a OK but didn`t really pay enough... But when we advertised and ran certain ground school briefings (intact as far as the syllabus was concerned) as Public Lectures....... as well as our own students we'd regularly pull 20 interested punters into a hotel room at £20 a pop... AOPA Ground Instructors could be worth their weight in gold to FTO's not only in the ground training role but as ambassadors to the community.

Diversify and sell GA to the public...

[Mike Cross]

Something like this? (http://www.pfa.org.uk/pdfs/Now%20Spread%20Your%20Wings02.pdf)
Or this? (http://www.pfa.org.uk/education_ya.asp)
Or this? (http://www.flyers.org.uk/)
perhaps?

Mike

[conor_mc]

I may be wrong in saying this, but my understanding of the "JAR licence in the States" is that these aren't JAR-approved schools - they are specifically CAA-approved schools, as a hangover from pre-JAA UK legislation.

I'll try dig out the references, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading about this a year or so ago, probably on this website!

[windriver]

Something like this? (http://www.pfa.org.uk/pdfs/Now%20Spread%20Your%20Wings02.pdf)
Or this? (http://www.pfa.org.uk/education_ya.asp)
Or this? (http://www.flyers.org.uk/)
perhaps?

Mike

Yes... as a matter of policy...

But it's also about using resources to generate regular non flying dependant income streams to offset the flying related overheads...

Often the entire cost of running the show gets lumped into the hourly rate.. and the shop, membership etc etc still ends up costing the flying members one way or another...

I`m not suggesting GA shouldn`t fight it's corner over unfair charges and rules.. rather that as a threatened species there may be no option but to adapt.... It's difficult to envisage a future where GA as we know it becomes less regulated.

[GusHoneybun]

All interesting points, but will raising the profile of GA in this country really stem the flow of students over to our stateside cousins? It all comes down to money.
Personally, I think not. As a PPL instructor, the types of students that walk through the door fall predominantly into two types.
First, there are those who are looking for a new challenge, meeting new people and having something to potter about and do on a sunday. These people are almost exclusively over 40, with many retired and looking for new ways to spend the kids inheritance. To them, the cost is not prohibative. They enjoy flying in their local area, buzzing their mates house and maybe once or twice are year visit Le 2K. These are the stalwarts of GA in this country.
Second, there are those who are looking to go commercial. These people are driven by time and money. They have a budget and a strict timescale to achieve their goals. The age over these people rarely stretch past 35.

The schools in the states models itself mostly on the younger type of student, looking to get a quick PPL on their way to the CPL. They are attracted by cheap flying and quick turnarounds. Unless the cost of flying in this country comes down to more sensible US levels, then this one way flow will continue.

If the duty on Avgas was the same as Avtur, then we could all save about £20 an hour, that might, in a small way, help reduce the overall cost of flying in this country. Now, just waiting for those flying pigs.....

[Mike Cross]

As you say - flying pigs.

So given that pigs are not going to fly (no way will Gordon give up the duty) you need to look at other ways in which costs here are higher.

Incidentally, should we be adapting engines that were not designed for aircraft use to use fuels they were never designed to operate on simply because they can use tax-free Avtur? My diesel car would run on tax free paraffin but it wouldn't do it any good.

Rather than blame something we cannot change let's deal with the things that we can change.