Security gone mad, or have I? [Archive]

DogsDiner

21st May 2006, 18:34

Well airport security has gone mad alltogether.
Yesterday commercial positioning BRU-LHR. Checked in and was asked the usual questions, "Is this your bag" etc.
Went through the security check, hand baggage X-rayed, jacket, keys, coins etc.

Got to gate, passport and boarding card checked.

Arrived Heathrow and passport checked by Immigration. Collected bags and walked from Terminal 1 arrivals upstairs to Departures level. Got into an Air Links bus and drove round to gargo side of airport. Where we were met by an ITS Security man and escorted through a security gate in to a sterile area inside the warehouse. Once inside we shown to a crew room that was locked and could only be opened by a security pass which not being LHR based we didn't have, so the security man let us in with our bags. After about 40 minutes guy came and told us the aircraft had arrived and did we want to go out to it.

After leaving the crew room we went through another security gate into the warehouse and then had to have our luggage x-rayed again and the usual pat down and magic wand treatment.

Got into a company vehicle and drove 200 meters to the plane which was clearly visisble from the warehose.

After getting out of the bus we walked to the bottom of the steps and F*%#K ME if we weren't frisked again before we were allowed on to the aircraft!

I came out a little later did the walkround and was frisked again before I was allowed back on board!

What is the point of all this hassle? Who are we trying to protect from who?

After cheking in and going through security as a passenger I could have bought everything from the gift shops and the pharmacy to make a perfectly deadly bomb or incendiary device and tooled myself up with all the weapons I could want, penknives, scissors etc. to take over a fleet of planes. But we don't need to do that, if we wait until we get to work the airline give is a very good fire axe and usually a perfectly serviceable autopilot with which we can create all the mayhem we could possibly want.

I have worked for this company for 4 years. I have been a U.K. licenced flight engineer for 30 years. I have held a British passport since I was fifteen and been a British citizen all my life. My colleagues had worked for the company for 8 and 12 years. We have company I.D.cards, Airport authority I.D. cards, passports and national I.D. cards and licenses. We have had background checks and vetting and still were treated like maximum security prisoners.

If one quarter of the effort being put into making our working life intolerable was spent in stopping and deporting illegal immigrants, failed asylum seekers and arresting general everyday thieves, rapist, murders and peadophiles then the U.K. would be one of the greatest places on earth to live.

Who are these security companies? It seems to be that the security companies advise the Airport Authority and possiblby the government on the proceedures that need to be in place so they can charge more to service the proceedures that they have recommended and hire more personnel so that they can then recommend more proceedures because they are now large companies and must therefore be experts in their field.

This is a multibillion pound industry and it is going to get bigger.

1984 can't be all that far away.

Roll on retirement.

dnx

21st May 2006, 20:59

:
This is a multibillion pound industry and it is going to get bigger.
1984 can't be all that far away.
Roll on retirement.
:{
Amen to that!!!!!!
You think this is madness. Try the (totally deprived of any sense of humor) TSA in the USA. :mad:
dnx

A and C

21st May 2006, 21:12

If you want to make real money set up a security company and then invent things to check, the goverment is so frightend of the press that you can charge them for anything...........................this is now not about protecting the public from terrorists it is about protecting the goverment from fleet street.

Oh ! i almost forgot that it also keeps those to stupid to do a real job off the unenployment lists (good secondary effect for the goverment)

DogsDiner

21st May 2006, 22:05

Apperently in CPH you now get frisked and x-rayed between leaving the airplane and getting landside.

Isn't it about time the crews started an airport user group, pressure group or somesuch to try and get some sense and intelligence (my bad using the words airport security and intelligenge in the same thread) to bring some reality to the situation?

What are the unions, BALPA, IAPLA etc doing?
Surely they cant accept this situation! can they?

retread7

21st May 2006, 22:29

...ditto HKG arriving at cargo apron. Though pax arriving at the cargo apron (there are a few flights, though not many) get straight through the security barrier with no checks. Not just pointless security, but inconsistent pointless security.....

underread east

22nd May 2006, 08:26

CPH: From cargo apron, bus to pax terminal, get out at security post half way round, and go through the whole magic wand business, however, bags left in bus, unchecked. Utter madness serving absolutely no purpose whatsoever, other than inconveniencing knackered crew trying to get to bed.

In common with most, I am fully in favour of sensibly, tight security measures applied in the right places, but the industry is already a monster and is set to ruin EVERYBODY's life. Before too long every door on a field will have 2 goons and an xray machine. Its a sorry state.

BRISTOLRE

22nd May 2006, 08:42

why the "checking" coming inbound??? senseless

F4F

22nd May 2006, 08:42

Having suffered similar treatment on all major airports in the EU (crown of abuse going to AMS and BHX) I can only concur :{
It seems that wearing a uniform makes you target prone and most officials take a malign revenge in scanning belongings, indecently searching crew, this most times in FULL VIEW OF OUR PAX :eek:

No this ain't airport security, this is the airport crew harassment squad!

spotwind

22nd May 2006, 08:51

At the risk of wandering off thread slightly, I have a question...

What is the official line on bona fide aircrew carrying small tools, ie leathermans etc?

I am led to believe that (in the uk) this is forbidden, but I know several pilots that carry these tools with no problems. I have tried it with limited sucess.

BAA have an inconsistent approach. In the past I have not had problems in EDI or ABZ, but at LHR it appears to depend on the day.

At LHR I was told that I could not carry such tools unless I was performing an engineering function. It is a daft rule that prevents aircrew performing minor tasks (adjusting headsets, opening panels, replacing lamps etc), but the inconsistency with its application is frustrating. :ugh:

Any thoughts?

chuckT

22nd May 2006, 09:06

Amen to that... This morning I spend more time going through security, than my commute here ( CPH)

When they tow aircrafts from the Hangars to the gates, the driver is met by security with their wands... because he has been out of the "secure" area... :ugh:

Consol

22nd May 2006, 09:08

haughtney1

22nd May 2006, 09:25

boogie-nicey

22nd May 2006, 10:00

This is indeed for the purposes of "exhibition" to make the public feel somewhat secure whilst making the government look like the big protector ... yeah of their own careers:ok:

This is unecessary as we all know but what's worrying is the fact that by constantlu prying through aircrew's wallets, items and uniforms they are eventaully going to find something one day that will satisfy their urge to call a security alert! Ruining some poor bloke's career for no reason at all. 1984 I think we're in it already aren't we.

As a matter of interest are celebrities still passed through rigorous security as well. Maybe they could pat down David Beckham and when he asks what security are looking for they can reply "Sorry Sir, we're searching for talent under your celebrity status!".

DogsDiner

22nd May 2006, 10:23

I'm sad to say that it seems increasingly apparent that these security "screeners" have neither the intelligence, nor the interpersonal skills to secure a position in the local sheltered workshop..they then opt for a position in aviation security:hmm:
Yes I agree but it seems some people aren't getting the point.
The government (elected or unelected, ie EU) set the reqirements for airport security, the airport authority or operator hires a security firm to impliment and advise on security. The more security breaches, imagined or overwise,the security company can identify, the more security is required. The security company then has to hire more moroms, sorry, agents to accomplish the task and the bigger the task the more money the security company makes. When the governments want advice on security who do they ask? The security companies of course, they're the experts.
The whole thing is driven by profit. Because the words Airport and Security are used in the same sentence then no one ever questions whether it is right or wrong. The politicians look good because they have put the security in place, the airport authority look good because they have implemented more than the minimum reqirements and the security company get the money.
This industry (security) is becoming a monster.
No one is going to complain about security checks being carried out if they are done with as little inconvieniance as possible and also if the measures are practical but at the moment it seems that new and different procedures are implemented for no other reason than to allow the security companies to hire more people.

RickVisitor

22nd May 2006, 10:50

So who checks the security? :O

Topslide6

22nd May 2006, 10:55

This is still within the realms of the thread and has puzzled me for some while.

I work at BHX and every single day I HAVE to put my food through the x-ray machine as the 'security' guards will not allow it to be passed over the machine and given a going over with the wand. It goes as far as them passing cups of coffee (honestly!! :ugh: ) through the machine which they then proceed to spill everywhere.

Does anyone know if there are any health issues with your food being x-rayed each day? It's not normal...and there has to be a reason radiographers in hospitals sit in a lead tomb behind a bombproof wall. :rolleyes:

No doubt it wouldn't be allowed in other walks of life...but as we're aircrew..... :ugh:

The Otter's Pocket

22nd May 2006, 11:01

I totally understand the frustration that is being felt and that there are many people who are justifing their positions.
However the message still isn't getting through to many people.
Recently I passed through Heathrow to see a rather broad chap arguing with security as to why he couldn't take his baseball bat on as hand luggage!
Or the secuity in Dubai that made me take off my shoes et al, and put them through the x-ray, only to see the dimwit behind the monitor not even looking at the screen and talking to the doris next to him.
When I complained to the BA gate manager, that I didn't mind being screened, however people should at least do their job, she made a thinly veiled threat that she could have me off loaded!
I have since realised - Never argue with a fool, they will only bring you down to their level.:ugh:

2close

22nd May 2006, 11:31

The problem with the UK security industry (and I'm sure this extends to Airport security) is that the grossly over-inflated fees charged by the security companies are not passed on to the 'operators'. They regularly get paid barely above the basic minimum wage, often have to work 60 + hour weeks and are stuck in mind-numbing routines.

And you know how the saying goes, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

So it's hardly surprising that Johnny Jobsworth and Desmond ******** are often going to be found dressed up in a nice uniform and given a position whereby they can exercise some degree of authority over the person whose job they would desperately love to be doing.

If you want efficient, motivated, practically minded and sensible security operators, the industry needs to make the role truly vocational with real structure and career progression, train staff properly, pay a decent wage and have sensible work patterns.....and employ people who are doing the job because they want to do it, not because its the only job they can get.

Is it ever going to happen? I'm not going to hold my breath.

Rant over. Signing off.

2close

Cruise Alt

22nd May 2006, 11:56

Question - What is the best way to improve Aircraft Security in Britain?

a) To overturn the convictions of a group of armed Afgan Hijackers who took over an aircraft at gunpoint, then grant them the right to live in the UK and award them with a full array of state benefts thus obvously deterring similar attacks in the future.

b) Make sure all thoroughly background searched professional pilots are not able to get to their aircraft unless thay have had their sandwiches x rayed and searching between the credit cards in their wallet.

D.H.Love

22nd May 2006, 12:08

Dogs Diner,

I have the answer and it is pure and simple. Department for Transport! there is no way to avoide the rules of this furry little beast and its cohorts.

You have to be escorted by the fat man, x-rayed, frisked and frisked again by the inept gaurd (as many times as you go up and down those steps). Its the same for every member of ground staff and I agree with you that it is a tad silly.....

D.H.Love

handysnaks

22nd May 2006, 13:09

It's sad really. They are doing all this in a futile attempt to prevent the possibility that a member of the crew may be a terrorist, with the aim of taking the aircraft on a 'last trip'. Yet they have missed the obvious. If one of the pilots has decided to take aircraft and passengers to oblivion all he has to do is wait till about 500 ft agl, point the nose at the deck and whack the throttles back! So as an obvious method of prevention, I suggest an armed security man to each pilot, with a pistol loaded and made ready, pointed at his/her pilots head. Then, should the vicious passenger hating maniac steering, decide that the moment has come..............:ok:

bushbolox

22nd May 2006, 13:24

Cruise alt...Ans B

Recently positioning thru bfs in civvies i was subject to a "random" search. The chap emptied my flight bag and looked at everything like the chimp he was. He ignored the obvious pilot paraphinalia, didnt ask or notice that i had an airside pass unde my t shirt, and generally tried to humiliate me. Having returned my belongings from the scanner he said i could repack my scattered flight bag. Now, my question is, who is responsible to repack it, and why waste a random search on someone who is already cleared airside.

He didnt even notice the two eastern gentlemen in dish dash and sunglasses smelling of marzipan that passed behind me.

One time in bfs in uniform, operating i had a safety balde removed from me and returned by the despatcher for safe keeping when the loadsheet was deliverd.
F@cking morons.

Jox

22nd May 2006, 13:27

I remember clearly the week after 9/11 landing at MCO, getting inside the terminal building to find a huge queue and then being searched - ON THE WAY IN !

I always suspected that the company had bubbled us all up for eating the cheese and was determined to catch us with the afters.

And as a result, the TSA. :mad:

Kaptin M

22nd May 2006, 13:38

No this ain't airport security, this is the airport crew harassment squad!
Spot on F4F

There's no doubt in MY mind that there is a minority of these secuity "officers" who have got it in for aircrew.
I've typed out an extensive overview HERE (http://70.86.224.210/~aqwquuwt/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8&start=15), which I hope provides (some) resolution for those of us who are willing to put some time into doing more than just chucking a "hissy fit" about it. :ok:

DogsDiner

22nd May 2006, 13:55

Hello Mike, good to see your still alive and still with NaffJets I take it.
I just posted this over at Pirep:
"Yes this is an international problem and I think its about time that we professionals got together and did something about it.
We are not against security, quite the contrary all we want is to be treated with some respect and courtesy.
Maybe if we started lobbying our various unions and members of parliament, congressmen, MEPs, senators and T.D.s etc. we could get somethings changed. "
Maybe they would start listening to the professionals and not the wannabe 007s and Andy McNabs.

judge11

22nd May 2006, 14:47

Here is yet another thread to add to the many posted on this site since 9th September, 2001, concerning the ludicrous so-called 'security' measures which government agencies have mindlessly introduced in the name of preserving (in actuality irradicating) freedom. My blood almost reaches boiling point when I read such tales of farce; what pushes it over boiling point is the fact that tens of thousands of literate, reasonably well-educated people around the world, namely the flightcrew community, accept this crap day in day out and do nothing about it!:ugh:

speedbird676

22nd May 2006, 15:21

Why do I now have to get my laptop out of it's bag when I go through security? Surely a small amount of leather isn't going to confuse the x-ray machine...

And why do I have to leave nail scissors at home when I have easy access to razor sharp scissors in the aircraft medical kit... AND A JEMMY...

I now think that in the interest of security, cups of tea should be forbidden on aircraft. It's very easy to use one to gain access to the flight deck... My method is the "ring once and wave it in front of the camera technique. The door then magically opens

forget

22nd May 2006, 15:51

Evidence that security searches are absolutely non-effective - some short time ago I was in the security line at a Nevada airport, idly kicking my brief case along the floor ahead of me. I noticed the brand new, multi million dollar scanning machines ahead, which triggered a thought. I knew that one of the two new Leathermans I had was in my checked bag - but where was the other one?

Oh dear! In the brief case at my feet. What to do? Own up - or wing it? The latter won and my brief case disappeared into the bowels of the machine. Meanwhile, I went though the arch, rang a bell and was frisked. During this frisking a TSA guy walks towards me, my brief case in hand. Here we go I thought - this could take some time. Not a bit of it.

‘This yours sir?' Yes I replied. It was handed over with ‘have a nice trip’.

Relief. I changed aircraft in Phoenix, after spending two hours airside, and then boarded a flight to, of all places, DC.

Security? Laughable.

speedbird676

22nd May 2006, 16:11

The stupidist thing I see is the metal detector arches that beep for every single person that go through. If they are so sensitive that they pick up buttons and tie pins there is no point having them....

mikip

22nd May 2006, 16:51

Maybe if flight crew walked round naked the security SS would find someone else to hassle

Danny

22nd May 2006, 17:06

It is not about what you can or can't get through 'security'. As pointed out above, it matters not one iota that you can get a Leatherman or a gun through security. It is the 'person' that is the weapon.

If you have no intent to cause harm, either directly or by aiding someone else to do so, then the fact that you managed to get something through security proves that it is little more than a cosmetic exercise. What is not properly addressed, and I run the risk of upsetting various tree huggers and assorted vegans with this proposal but, what is required is passenger profiling. I know it is a dirty word for some who do not properly understand what it really is but unless it is taken seriously and the beancounters are able to comprehend the difference between real safety and profit then we are all going to continue to get upset at some of the antics we regularly see being acted out in the name of 'security'.

Passenger profiling is really an exercise in 'intelligence' and we all know what an oxymoron that is when it comes to airport 'security'. As this topic gets raised every few weeks and follows the same, predictable path, I will move it as it certainly isn't 'news' any more. :ugh:

boofhead

22nd May 2006, 17:14

This is all about Airport Security. If you think about it for a while, it is only marginally connected to the real problem which is Aircraft Security. Airports do not get hijacked or flown into buildings; airplanes do.
It is not possible to protect airplanes from a point on the ground and all this cr@p we go through is for show and profit. It has nothing to do with making us safer.
So far the only things that have been done about the real problem of airplane security have been to make the flight deck doors stronger and order them always locked (so what about a Jetstream or Bandit?) and to make sure there are sufficient F16s to protect the politicians on the ground, who see themselves as targets and are even afraid of little Cessna 150s.
Taking stuff off passengers and crew is worse than stupid. Remember that scene in Crocodile Dundee where the mugger pulled out a 4 inch knife and Mick Dundee countered with his 12 inch blade? Now picture a hijacker with a box cutter against a plane load of angry pax with leather mans, scissors etc.
There are plenty of ways to get weapons on board a commercial flight; disarming the honest people who might be able to fight back (isn't that the point?) makes no sense at all.
It is our fault; we elected these morons who are responsible for the situation we find ourselves in now.

dustybin

22nd May 2006, 18:40

While operating out of NWI airport last sumer in uniform i was violated by one off their female security staff and it will stay with me for life. She checked under the wire of my bra, round my waist, up my inside legs and there was some cupping of the bum cheeks.:uhoh: I was so shocked that i never said anything until i saw her doing it to another member of staff ( it was the look of shock on her face that gave it away) What the hell did she think i had under my bra and bum cheeks. If i ever meet this over friendly person again i shall be having a strong word:=

Eaglestar7

22nd May 2006, 21:00

Operated through the "new" Doncaster airport last year. Went through the screening in uniform. I didn't beep the metal detector but was still called aside for a pat down by an older security "gentleman". Pat down was more like a full body massage. Then asked to show the soles of my shoes. Then asked to take out my wallet. He then proceeded to check behind each credit card, for what I don't know. Then asked me to take my ballpoint pen out of my shirt pocket and show him the nib. Has anybody else met this fine proffesional and what is his problem?

It is a shame that some people on Pprune that claim to be professional cannot use their professionalism to think as to why certain procedures are carried out during the screening process. It must be reminded that security staff at airports cannot post specifics here. If a comment is made towards a pilot for instance about any specifics regarding the operation of a flight and the poster is not from within the pilots profession, then their view is deemed invalid. Comments like this are posted without the ability of security officers to post exactly why a certain procedure is carried out because of restrictions or the possibility of the wrong people getting hold of the information to use AGAINST US ALL. From what I can tell, Consol has posted an accurate depiction of the way it is actually supposed to be done. I am sorry if you cannot accept this, but if you new why we follow these procedures you would understand. I suggest people here sign up and get there NASP Level 1, 2 and 3. Then you may understand!

fortuna76

23rd May 2006, 00:44

I think Eaglestar's opinion excellently represents the problems we are facing. He/she actually thinks that he/she is doing the aviation comunity a favor by checking the insides of a pen. We have all gone absolutely mad.

Now if you find me in front of your security gate I will be totally polite and as long as there is no internal body checks, I will basically not complain, but that is just because I NEED TO GET TO WORK! And the company allows me only 45 minutes to get the plane ready so it seems the best way. But that means, in no way at all that I agree with it. Let´s say these guys slow me down for 20 minutes because of some idiotic searching through my bags. Now I have to preflight my plane in 25 minutes. And yes I know I am not suppost to take shortcuts, but in the end we all walk around the plane with a bit more speed and do a briefing with a bit higher speech rate. Good for air safety... NO WAY!

So what is it about my belt, my wings, my cup of coffee or my shoes which is so dangerous to air safety. I have at my disposal on board: A solid fire axe, scissors in the medical kit, a metal cutlery set, a leatherman (we have them standard in the cockpit, so no worries about getting them through security :} ). Apart of these seemingly harmless items, quite often i get a handgun in the cockpit, because of the standard rule, gun in cockpit, bullets in the back. Ultimately if all else fails I could basically dump the pressure at 30.000 feet and point the nose to mother earth.... Sorry to say it mister/misses but you have no alternative but to start TRUSTING us. I have been screened thoroughly enough, more then you have!

I hate this 1984 world that we have become. Security is out of control and we all have to except it, because of the terrible fear of terrorism. The most dangerous part of my day is the car ride to the airport, where I stand a 10.000 time higher change of getting killed then by a terrorist on a plane. That is fact, not your idiotic course 1, 2 or 3. But you go right ahead and keep making money of the aviation industry. Security tax in Amsterdam is now up to 28 euro per pax per trip.... At least I get my money's worth, I counted today the amount of security checks. No less then 8 times did I go through the old beeping gate. Pretty soon I won't need a reading light any more at night...:}

Dushan

23rd May 2006, 00:56

Eaglestar7

Like a poster said earlier, those that cannot get jobs elswhere...

DogsDiner

23rd May 2006, 08:59

These guys are only doing what there told to do, some do it more diligently than others and some are just downright rude and arrogant. Its the government, airport authority and the security companies that tell them what to do and expect us to put up with it. :ugh:

The main instigator for all this nonesense in the U.K. is the DfT, Department for Transport and until they are made to listen to us, the people who actually use the airport and one of main reason they've got an airport in the first place and not the wannabe Andy McNabs and 007s that run the security companies then nothing is going to change.

spotwind

23rd May 2006, 09:01

Thanks for your reply Mike.

It more or less concurs with what Ive experienced, especially carrying tools whilst positioning as crew. (ie, on duty, uniformed, ID, etc)

Whilst I agree security checks are needed, as many posters have stated, it's completely out of control, where much of the so called 'security' has become just unjustified pointless hassle!

Perhaps this is something we could get BALPA to look into.There must be an alternative to the current state of affairs.

dnx

23rd May 2006, 10:21

:confused:
Recently the scareport security:} in AMS tested new screening equipment.
It's straight out of sfi-fi "Total recall"
and who do they test in on??
Aircrew offcourse!
The results were satisfactory for the security people but the guinneepigs objected.
Crewmembers had to walk thru a passage while they were being "scanned"
Security personel could monitor them on a screen without their clothes.
Every "foreign" object on their body was visible on the TV screens.
As a precaution the machine blanked out their faces.
Is this what we want instead of the magicwand treatment?
I am not so sure.
dnx

Consol

23rd May 2006, 14:13

Eaglestar7

Please get a grip Eaglestar. The individual concerned was acting the idiot, plain and simple and if he wants to pprune he can without giving away top secret information. I afford a great deal more respect to security people who do there jobs well rather than make a point, throw their weight around or try to humiliate pilots by pointless and over the top security rituals. At some point in every system there has to be some people who are trustworthy or nothing works.

Eaglestar7

23rd May 2006, 16:55

Consol

It is quite possible that the person you spoke to was acting like an idiot, this happens in all lines of work unfortunately. The problem we have as aviation security officers, is that ALL staff working in airside locations feel that they should have special rights and should be allowed to avoid security procedures. It must be understood that it has to be the same for everybody. It is only a small part of the day for a pilot, cabin crew, ramp operative etc, so why all the fuss. We as aviation security officers, many ex forces, police and other ex professionals have to take flack off people like you, day in, day out. It is just a shame that you feel you are so much more important than the rest of us. As for Mobile phones, pens & shoes, these things can be adapted into guns and bombs. (remember everyone has to be treated the same passenger, staff & crew alike) basically, stop filling yourself with self-importance we all sleep, **** and die, we are all the same.

Polehill.flt70

23rd May 2006, 17:48

DogsDiner

The main instigator for all this nonesense in the U.K. is the DfT, Department for Transport and until they are made to listen to us, the people who actually use the airport and one of main reason they've got an airport in the first place and not the wannabe Andy McNabs and 007s that run the security companies then nothing is going to change.[/quote]

Thank you DogsDiner. Some common sense is out there. As with anyone, they can do the job well and be polite about it or they are complete plonkers. I am not going to name and shame as this is not the area for doing so, but from my experience there are 'good' crew and 'bad' crew and quite frankly some are downright abusive and obnoxious. We are all playing the game and as such we should play it with some degree of decorum. If crew get bolshi then you can bet your life that the security 'officer' will take their time and hinder the passage through to airside. If plesant and polite, then the 'officer' will no doubt be quick and apologetic. Whats the old saying 'do unto others as others do unto you', if you are polite, i am sure they will be polite, and if not, why not casually enquire as to why they are not, it could be that this is the 70th bag they have done that morning and they have been up since 2.30!

Security staff do not particularly like going through bags or body searching, but its part of the job and as you said we are just doing what we are told. I try to always be polite (even when the proverbial is hitting the fan), but it does grate when you are just doing a job and getting flack for it. Security staff get the hassle from both ends of the spectrum those earning 100k flying and those going on holiday.

Common sense is the way to go and quite frankly the rules laid down by the DfT are, more often than not stupid. If a pilot wished to crash a plane he could and no amount of body searching would stop him, but the rule states that if a person (any person) bleeps then they are subject to a search. As well as that a percentage of non-bleepers should be randomly checked as well, be it staff or passengers. And so we do as it states.

A last note, some airports are not doing the correct ratios as laid out by the DfT, while others are following them to the letter. Maybe one has to question the reasons why this is so. Do the 'powers that be' know something that the security officer and pilots do not have access to? Is there some information at a higher level that those in the front line are not being told? Just think about it........:hmm:

:- P

PENKO

23rd May 2006, 18:49

Just play the game. Get the metal out, throw the bag in the machine, take off your coat. Is that really too much to ask?

See, it's all about compromise. We want your airport to be better protected than a trainstation, yet we don't want a full cavity search on every passenger. Everything in between will allways be a compromise.

And compromises are by definition not perfect, they will always cause debate.
If you ask passengers to take their laptops out of their luggage you will achieve a greater level of security. But then pilots on pprune will scream rape and murder, because it slows things down even further.

When you alleviate certain rules to speed up the security process, the same pilots on pprune will say: see, this security has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

So just play the game. And let the security-agent do his/her job.

hazehoe

23rd May 2006, 19:08

Polehill.flt70

I am polite but there are still those that behave like "plonkers" which in my opinion has to do with something that stands out in your post those earning 100k flying.Must feel good for some to be dressed up in a uniform with limited education and or skills and stop a pilot who makes a 100K a year and hold him up in front of a bunch of pax,there are polite screeners and they are just doing there job,it's the one who things there is guy making a 100K a year flying planes and i have the power to say:TAKE YOUR SHOES OF!!! that is the problem.

Just a little power trip for some, give me a break about procedures etc.

Cheers

PENKO

23rd May 2006, 19:27

Like someone mentioned earlier, there are loosers in any profession.
However, dare I say that most of this 'I can command a pilot who earns 100K to get of his shoes' business is something that goes on mostly in your mind.

Still, I wouldn't blame a security-agent to feel slightly vindicated with the power he has, seeing how some of you judge these people (stupid, dumb, no education).

Eaglestar7

23rd May 2006, 19:33

There is a misconception by many pilots that security officers are all unskilled with little knowledge of anything. That may apply to some, but alot are actually ex professionals like I said before, some are graduates, former police officers and even former special forces.

Consol

23rd May 2006, 19:45

Eaglestar7

Trouble is many think they are still in the special forces.

PENKO

23rd May 2006, 20:02

Trouble is you do not want to play the game.
Come on guys, what does it matter if an agent is ex-SAS or just barely finished any education? He's there to do a job. This contempt for a fellow's education is very very dull.

What do you expect, Phd in radiology to sit behind the x-ray?
As if a pilot really knows what makes his plane fly.
He knows enough to do the job. And so does the agent.

PPRuNe Pop

23rd May 2006, 20:44

This threading is winding up like an ammonite. It is getting boring too, and if life doesn't come back to it soon it will end up like the above cephalopod and become extinct!

Just thought I wouldn't get serious - yet!

PPP

hazehoe

23rd May 2006, 20:57

The contempt comes in if you are not treated with a little common courtesy,what is so difficult about asking somebody to please go back through instead of GO BACK!
If i come through and say good morning and someone doesn't have the time to wish me the same and instead start barking orders i think what a looser.
You can do your job and still be polite,or not? There is no reason at all to be rude or is there?
Behave like a professional and you get treated like one.

DogsDiner

23rd May 2006, 21:57

Yes PRuNe POP it's turning into a dick measuring contest.
EagleStar Its not about who searched who for what and it's not about who's a plonker and who's not.
Penko and Polehill thanks for your input and I don't for one minute think this is about "I can f*%~k around with these guys who earn 100K".
If you read the earlier posts, it's about respect and dignity.
Respect and dignity on both sides. We both have jobs to do.
Why do we as crew have to go through all the vetting, background checking and hoop jumping (box ticking if you like) to be issued with company and airport authority I.D. cards, and for them to mean nothing when it comes to actually getting to the airplane to carry out the job for which we have been vetted and background checked. If the DfT were to take proper responsibility for airside passes and to issue them themselves then a lot of of this quite unessercary checking could be stopped. ie Sorry your not allowed through Manchester 'cos you've got a Birmingham I.D.card.
The quite frankly absurd procedure that I had to go through on Saturday(the first post in this thread) to get from landside to airside I have since found out was entirely at the instigation of the DfT.
I know that to some of you security agents(officer? what is the correct title?) do think that to us it is only a small part of the day to go through the checks. But that might only be at your airport. With multiple sectors per day and commercial positioning before, after or in the middle of the duty day it is not unreasonable to assume that one particular crew or crew member could be checked four times in one day. Standing in line with all your passengers for the forth time in a day wondering how long it's going to take this time on top of being concerned with possible technical problems, ATC delays, duty times etc. just adds to the frustration of what possibly has been already a long frustrating day.
Aviation is still quite a small industry and background and character checks are or should be fairly easy to carry out. If the government or the E.U. had the will to standardise the checks and to issue the relevent passes then our whole life ( and I mean the security agents as well ) could be made easier. Imagine if there was a special security area only for crew and airport staff, would that not be easier to police than having the crew mixing with the passengers where in a lot of airports inbound and outbound pax still meet?
Would it not reduce the pressure on the security personnel by easing the manpower reqirements?
As I said before this is about cowardly politcians being lead by greedy security companies.( and I am a capitalist ).
The security measures in place at the moment do very little to heighten security and I think from reading all the posts here that both sides agree on that.
The question is WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT?