Instructor jobs??

[pinns84]

Am looking around for cpl courses and would like to head to OZ with the aim of hanging around for a while instructing/any flying. Thing is i'm hearing things about 14000 cpl holders not currently working out there. Do you guys think this to be true?

[rmcdonal]

That 14000 includes pilots who just got the CPL because they wanted the extra trainning/ sticker in log book/ or because they could, with no intention of ever taking it up as a Profession. It's bad down here, but it's not that bad.

[h1tman47]

Continuing on along the same line of discussion as the original post.........
Can any one shed some light on the flying schools/aeroclubs in Australia that offer instructor rating courses and which of these flying schools/aeroclubs can offer an instructing job at the end of the course.

Cheers.

[Eight Ball]

It depends which state you are planning to go to, and if it's in a city or country.

Otherwise, you can pick and choose. Most of them offer the FIC ( flight instructor course ) from time to time.

Eight Ball

[Soulman]

Can any one shed some light on the flying schools/aeroclubs in Australia that offer instructor rating courses and which of these flying schools/aeroclubs can offer an instructing job at the end of the course.
Cheers.

Be very careful of places which will offer you a job at the end of an instructor rating course. Unless you have a written agreement - don't take it for granted that they will stick to their word.

Soulman.

[novicef]

pinns,

I did a lot of research and phoning around before I did my instructor rating, unfortunately what I was told on the phone was totally inaccurate. It was only after completing the rating I found that there was a large number of instructors unable to obtain full time work on a stable wage.

The present situation is that there is a large number of junior instructors jostling for work, all of which is casual part-time except for a few exceptions. The result is that instructors are getting very little flying and having to live on meagre wages.

As a Grade3 instructor I have been offered anything from $25/hr to $35/hr. In addition I may only fly 1 or 2 hours per day and on some days no flying at all. The result is that I have to work evenings to pay of my loan. Fortunately my other half is a builder which reduces the financial strain. The award is a joke which very few people pay, yet there are flying schools promoting this rating knowing fully well what the real situation is.

The AFAP apparently are trying to obtain an increased salary in the award, however how that works with the present IR laws only they really know. It appears young people starting out on this route unless they make the airlines are doomed to low salaries and a very unstable life style.

[Capt. Wingdrop]

Don't expect a full-time job until you've got at least 100 hours ab-initio and can train unsupervised. Look for schools that pay a wage, not an hourly rate based on flying (rare but very much worth it!).

I also recommend reading the Savvy Flight Instructor for any new or wannabe instructors. Don't be fooled - CFI in the USA means certified flying instructor, not chief flying instructor. It will give you a stack of tips on how to keep students flowing through.

[pinns84]

So theres a good enough chance of getting work afterwards, just prob not full time?

[novicef]

In Oz you need more than 100 hours instructing. I know of instructors with a lot more than that instructing but have been held back by their employers in order to make them less flexible to move. You would be better going to the US and get the hours there.

Unless you have at least a GR.2 with twin training approval, you dont have much to offer.

[Capt. Wingdrop]

It's like any job in aviation - work hard and you'll get there.

If you expect it all on a platter you won't achieve your goals.

[Wheeler]

A CPL and instructor rating is great in Aus - but if you like food sometimes make sure you have a proper job as well. It seems many of the 14000 actually start or end up doing something else as well, usually much more financially rewarding. (not difficult!) I would be seriously concerned if either of my teenagers were to consder GA in Aus as any kind of a serious job.

[MBA747]

There are a lot of people in GA who worked really hard and are still working hard for very low salaries. I'm sure they started with the same view as you and didn't make it.

A lot of my peers didn't make it either through no fault of their own, just no opportunities. I was lucky, just had the right passport which gave me the break. Some of my colleagues are still instructing at BK after doing the " Hard Yards" in the bush.

It is a real pity people here don't tell it the way it is, unfortunately by giving people false hope they attract young hopefulls who really have no chance to advance beyong GA.

pinns84, just remember some people who post here have their own agendas. There are pilots here pushing the flying career in the hope to attract people like you so that they can build hours at your expense. It's a tough, selfish business.

[Capt. Wingdrop]

I agree with you - there will always be people who work their ass off and still won't be able to make it. It's the same with almost every industry - legal, IT, sales - not everyone will get their ideal result.

I don't believe I was offering false hope and I have no agenda to push in this forum.

My point was if you really want to achieve something you've got to give it your best. There is no such thing as luck. Luck is when good preparation meets opportunity.

Prepare yourself as best as you can and one day an opportunity will come along.

I'm not saying anything is going to be easy, but the amount of negativity in the forum frustrates me.

[Wheeler]

Maybe its like the acting profession. You have the same chance as anyone to be a big star - but if you need something more than a hobby (probably the only option for most of the unemployed 14000 CPL's), make sure you have something you can pay for the hobby with. That's not negativity, just statistical reality in this country.

[George_of_the_Bungle]

Luck is when good preparation meets opportunity.

Capt. very wise words....i think this is very true for the swarm of pilots that hit Kunna's and other places up north each year

[MBA747]

Capt:

People in IT and the legal business don't spend 70k just to get going and then some more to hopefully advance, only to find they only get paid in our case when your flying, so much so many instructors are earning below the bread line.

A charter pilot on a C402 is on 42K after spending all that money, working for people who are out to take full advantage of the glut of pilots. Your living in a fools paradise.

George:
As you said a swarm of pilots in Kunna's. If this stupidity continues a group of us and I mean retired airline guys will start up a flying school & charter business and employ young dreamers like yourselves. What a great business low costs and willing slaves and guess what? you can pay us for ICUS time while you are flying our aircraft. I would call it a great business model.

[Icarus2001]

There is no such thing as luck. Luck is when good preparation meets opportunity.

Tell that to Brett Godfrey. That little airline he started in 2000 with 11 aircraft was very luckythat Ansett collapsed when it did, making them the second carrier in our "two airline system" by default. He must have been giggling to himself as he drove to the bank.

FLYING JOBS

There are horror stories and there are great stories. There are some great employers who try to do the right thing and then there are the others, used car salesmen running GA companies. There are also bad employeesand there are great employees.
Work hard, be honest, follow the rules and stay safe. Not many people will end up in the front of a Boeing or Airbus but then not everyone wants to. There are some great places to live and work around this country and sure the bank balance may not always be as healthy as it could be in other careers but the chance to live and work around the country is valuable, how do you value that?
Remember ONE THING and that is that your reputation as a pilot is like virginity, once it is gone there is no recovery. Aviation in Australia is a VERY small pond and I speak weekly with pilots from all around the country and get to know who is up to what and when. So when the time comes for your first turbine job remember that everything that you have done before matters. You cannot start being professional once you have that BIG JOB. That starts from day one.

[bushy]

Finally there is a lot of factual and sound advice on this subject
Icarus has a sound summary here.
Most new pilots will not make it to the major airlines, but some will.
Some will get jobs and good experience in GA- many will not suvive, and will drop out soon. Some may not get started, beyond the "hobby"stage. Some will make a good living in GA for decades, doing what they like doing.
Outside the airlines, hardly anyone gets rich in aviation, except those who sell aeroplanes to fools, and teach other fools to fly them. But there are many career aviators in GA who stay for decades.
Every part of the aviation industry needs people who are sensible, responsible, reliable, self reliant, capable individuals, who can work as part of a big team. Same as the major airlines do.
We can kill the people just as dead as the medical profession. The responsibility is huge, even though the aeroplane may not be. It does not vary with the size of the aeoplane, or the location.
It's a bit like acting. A few make big bucks. Most do not. For some it's a hobby. And your fortunes depend on what you have already done, and how well you have done it.

MBA 747
There are already charter operators who exploit young pilots as almost "slave labour" and have them paying for ICUS etc so they can undercut the genuine operators out there. It is a huge poblem. Mostly they are not the best operators on the field. They are destroying the industry and their own credibility.

[Capt. Wingdrop]

It doesn't seem to matter what I say, you'll disagree and find some way to shed a negative light on aviation in Australia. There have been a number of your posts within PPrune that support this.

I'm guessing someone has ****ed you over and now it is your mission in life to destroy the ambitions of new pilots or those that are actually succeeding.

Things are not great, but why so much negativity?

[glenb]

Pinns,
I have been flying since 1982 and chose to stay in GA because i love it, so perhaps my viewpoint will be a bit slanted but here i go. First be aware that if you come out from wales, there will be a couple of issues. First be aware that the system over here is a bit different to yours. I believe that you guys dont neccesarily have to have an instructor rating to instruct. Over here you do, and you should budget about $12,000 to complete it on top of your costs for your CPL.

Second i think your age will play a part. If you are over about 25 i think you would find yourself slightly more employable. I think there is a general preference for slightly older staff.

Thirdly,think how you are wanting to use the instructor rating. If you are wanting to travel around Australia and instruct, i doubt that will work. Most schools would be looking for someone to hang around and progress with them. I believe you would be more successful if you dropped yourself somewhere with a view to staying longer term.

In my opinion any school that guaranteed you a job at the end is possibly someone you dont want to consider. Admittedly i have worked for one company that was the exception to this rule. Generally you cant offer someone a job prior to them completing the rating, because you dont know how they will perform. Any school that operates that is likely to have a portion of dud instructors that would be having a negative impact on their business.

Also consider work righs issues for a foreign citizen.

I am an instructor and not trying to solicit business because i have substantially more work than i can handle. It is a great industry with salaries for experienced instructors highly competitive with what you would earn in a regional airline in Australia today. Also with the constant attack on Airline salaries, there is in my opinion, a brighter future for instructor salaries due to the shortage of experienced instructors.

The job itself is excellent if you chose to make it excellent. You get to work with people starting out at the beginning of their career who have a positive outlook and generally very keen and willing to learn. Think of how great your high school teachers job would have been if he had a whole class of students who were excited to be in class and wanted to learn everything they could.

Anyway, whatever you decide hope you have a great time over here. Cheers

[MBA747]

I'm a realist, not living in a fools paradise. Consider this:

1. Instructors paid anything from $25 to $35 a FLYING hour....not the award ,no flying no pay, duties include cleaning toilets, vacuuming offices,cleaning the kitchen.

2. Pilots employed as contractors, paid well below the award, not paid super, no work insurance so that if you damage an aircraft you pay, you land in farmland you compensate the farmer, you pay your own tax from a salary which is already well below the award.

3. To many instructors at flying schools so that any flying is rationed to the many, resulting in not much flying for the individual and resulting in a low salary.

4. Airline opportunities limited, pay for your own endorsement A320, B737NG about 40K. It's only a matter of time you will have to pay for line training. Its happening in the UK and Europe, EAGLE JET charge about 30K EUROS for 300 hours line training.

5. Airline flying in the US is in a worse predicament. Most airlines are either in Chapter11 or just out of Chapter11. salaries have plumetted.

6. Airlines in Asia.........well unless your a Capt you will be on a local contract, however there are exceptions......not many.

7. Airlines in South America, well I don't fly there so I can't really comment, needless to say you must speak Spanish.

Now Wingdrop try a rebuttal to those FACTS.

[novicef]

How come there is a GA Award and yet you can be contracted to be paid well below the Award and its conditions? What really bothers me is the lack of work insurance, what happens if you have an engine failure and damage is done to property, who pays? Why isnt super paid? I would have thought it was in the governments interest to ensure that all employees were paid super.

I don't understand how the AFAP can allow this to occur and yet expect pilots to join the union?

[glenb]

because perhaps if you guys joined the union it would be able to represent you. The union will represent you and you are entitled to representation but only from the time you are a member.

[Sykes]

And by such "experts".

Pinns84, Welcome to D&G, where the bitter and twisted dwell. :\

I'm surprised that no-one so far has mentioned China Southern or Singapore flying college in W.A. They take G3 instructors (once you've got 100 instructing hours) and pay them a full-time wage. I've got 7 instructor mates who made the move from MB to PJT and they're all loving it! They get between 35 and 45k p.a (depending on location and whether Twin approved or not) and plenty of hours.

Pinns84, do a Pprune search for "China Southern" in D&G. Plenty of comments there (good and bad). When I was visiting over there in January this year, I was told that both China Southern and Singapore FC were looking to increase their student intakes and were trying to put even more through (which leads to requiring more instructors).

The net result of that is that in places like Moorabbin there is now a shortage of instructors.

So, when MBA747 quotes as FACTS:

1. Instructors paid anything from $25 to $35 a FLYING hour....not the award ,no flying no pay, duties include cleaning toilets, vacuuming offices,cleaning the kitchen.
2. Pilots employed as contractors, paid well below the award, not paid super, no work insurance so that if you damage an aircraft you pay, you land in farmland you compensate the farmer, you pay your own tax from a salary which is already well below the award.
3. To many instructors at flying schools so that any flying is rationed to the many, resulting in not much flying for the individual and resulting in a low salary.

Okay, point 1 does occur, but is becoming less common, as Instructors ARE going west once they've got 100 hours. Schools in MB are now beginning to realise that they have to pay proper wages if they want to remain viable.

Point 2 is (as described) is pure fantasy! I'm sure there are plenty of IWA's out there that have some of the points mentioned, but not all in one (as your point implies). Please, if anyone has signed IWA's with those conditions, seek legal advice! Or look elsewhere. There are lots of schools with vacancies for instructors.

Point 3 DID occur, and still does at schools at some of the busier training airports. However, as for Point 1, all the instructors I know at MB and EN are very busy, due to the shortage at their school.
But wait, there's more...

4. Airline opportunities limited, pay for your own endorsement A320, B737NG about 40K. It's only a matter of time you will have to pay for line training. Its happening in the UK and Europe, EAGLE JET charge about 30K EUROS for 300 hours line training.

Airline opportunities are expanding. There's more movement up top than there has been since 2001. Many places that do charter, Bank runs and RPT in pistons are now having difficulty keeping drivers, as they're moving up to bigger things. And just b/c EAGLE JET is charging for line training doesn't mean that it will expand to the rest of the UK/Europe industry or that "it's a matter of time before it happens here".

And still more...

5. Airline flying in the US is in a worse predicament. Most airlines are either in Chapter11 or just out of Chapter11. salaries have plumetted.

6. Airlines in Asia.........well unless your a Capt you will be on a local contract, however there are exceptions......not many.

7. Airlines in South America, well I don't fly there so I can't really comment, needless to say you must speak Spanish.

Great FACTS, but US/Asia/Sth America airline issues probably aren't that relevant to getting an instructor rating in OZ. (And they speak Portugese in Brazil :} )

And one more...

pinns84, just remember some people who post here have their own agendas. There are pilots here pushing the flying career in the hope to attract people like you so that they can build hours at your expense. It's a tough, selfish business.

MBA747, isn't your daugher a flying instructor? Did you get around to buying her those 50 hours multi so that she could get her Twin Training approval? (Another thread). So maybe YOUR agenda is to discourage people joining GA to give your daughter a better chance with less competition????
(It would explain your negative attitude)

P.S Apologies Capt. Wingdrop for rebutting before you could.

[rmcdonal]

Rising cost of fuel, old airframes, lack of movement in the training area, Government Red Tape, Old Mindsets running the business. All these contribute to the low wage and crap conditions that can be found at some flying schools and charter companies. To pay you more they would have to charge the customer more, for some this would mean they can't afford the training and so don't do it = 1 less student. Then you can complain that there aren’t as many students at your school because the boss charges too much, therefore you get less flying. And so on and so forth. There is more to it then some pilots think. Not all Aviation Business owners are rolling in a mountain of cash.
:ugh:
It is not an easy road with easy pickings. If your union pipes up and sues the company guess what happens to that company… that’s right they close down and EVERY one looses their job (note: I’m not to sure how this works in the Airlines…but we won’t go there).
I’m all for getting paid the award but you have to understand that from where you sit as a J3 instructor you don’t have the whole story. Remember 1 fulltime instructor on the award is equal to 3 part time instructors. That’s 2 less jobs for the wannabees.
Stands back and awaits the booting :ouch:

[MBA747]

!. So how many instructors can the west take? you mention 2 schools wow.

2. On each point you say it Does or Did occur or does not apply. Well it still does occur and unless you want to just live in Oz and live in hope it would not apply to you.

3. My daughter is an instructor so I am well aware of what is going on. She is young with a Science Degree with parents being able to afford to buy the 50 hours twin, Type Rating and If I have too line Training, can you compete with that? She is rather fortunate and the only reason she is being sponsored is that she has a backup qualification. In addition she was born in Europe and her mother is American, so do I have to point out she qualifies for a EU passport and if necessary can obtain a Green Card.

4. Now if you have those credentials and back up only then competition is a consideration.

[Capt. Wingdrop]

If your daughter is chasing 50 hours twin to give multi engine training she must enjoy her instructing. If she was doing it just to get into the airlines wouldn't she be better off up north somewhere?

If she does love her instructing I've got the utmost respect for her. I'm in the same boat - I love my right hand seat job - and it's great to see others who really enjoy their profession. Sure the money ain't great, but I see no reason in destroying the hopes of a potential instructor. We have no idea of his/her goals or ambitions, so let's not totally destroy them.

Your daughter sounds well set up, which is great, but your post seems to imply she's much more than we could ever hope to achieve. I really hope I've read the post incorrectly...

[pinns84]

Thanks for all the replys folks. A lot of different opinions which is what i expected. I'm 21 and am half way through an Aviation degree at leeds uni and cant decide how far i want to take the flying. I have been flying for a year and know enough that i want to do a lot of it and sure as hell dont ever want to stop. At the moment I can strongly considering a career in GA and not going as far as airlines :bored:

[Sykes]

(Sorry, I've been away for a bit)

MBA747,

Last week speaking to my mates over in W.A. and getting the vibe at Jandakot...

Sure ONLY two schools, but Singapore has around 30 instructors with 200 students at any one time. China southern has around 50 instructors (at Jandakot, not sure about Merriden) and China Southern is having difficulty finding instructors to meet their GROWING demands for more. On top of that, there are schools at EN and MB with contracts to instruct China Eastern pilots. They are also looking for more instructors.

On the points that I raised: Sure, I agree with you that some of the shonky practices are still going on. Where we differ is that I can see some
improvement in instructor Pay and Conditions, where you seem to insist that not only are Pay and conditions as bad as they were 2 years ago, but that they wont improve.

I don't think that I've ever been in competition with your daughter. (But I could match most of what you've offered if that makes you feel any better :hmm:)

Sykes!

[topaharley]

if ya paid the guys more who will pump my gas an pour my beer?::E
The guys should be lucky for a job flying, just having paid for an instructors ticket should not mean life is going to be easy.
But for those who work hard an study hard the lite at the end of the tunnel is alot closer to the one who sits in the dark bitching about pay.

[MBA747]

I'm back long trip, unfortunately couldn't respond to your distorted post due to being called away at short notice.

1. The first three points taken together are not necessarily applied in any one situation which you for your own reasons imply. Each point posted earlier occurs monotonously, however any two points taken together DO apply.( Re points 1,2 & 3 )

2. Point 4 regarding endorsements and ICUS. This actually started in the US and the UK followed and now seems to have caught on world wide however there are exceptions. In Aust. Virgin introduced the pay for your own endorsement now followed by J*. Then GA gets in on the act, with pilots paying upto $100 ICUS to fly a 30 year old light twin.

3. Point 7, a small minority actually speak English however,unless you can speak their language the chance of you being employed is remote.

4." Great FACTS, but US/Asia/Sth America airline issues probably aren't that relevant to getting an instructor rating in OZ"..... Well Sykes are you telling me trainees in their 20's willingly spend around at least 70K just to instruct or do you think their are more ambitous and want an airline career in the hope of some stability and financial reward. There are few and I mean very few career instructors and even out of those, a number would not make airlines anyway and they accept that.

5.As to SIA Flying College the increase in cadets has occurred inthe last 6 months. They also offer career advancement, so don't expect too much movement there. China Southern the older instructors will stay the younger will move on in hope.

Now regarding working conditions, things are bad & getting worse. In my day everybody was paid the award. Now its open to abuse with fulltime casual in vogue. Unless one is a GR.1 or a GR.2 with training approval, you are one of the many on casual (get paid when you fly).....no students, weather is unsuitable, a/c is u/s, too many instructors so flying is rationed......the result a salary below the bread line. The point being unless you have a backup qualification, well of parents who can give you financial support when required or have great contacts in the industry it's a hard slog, which would most most likely lead to a poor life style and despair. Now how many trainees are in that category???

Sure people do make it but the die is loaded against you.

'topaharley' best of luck, you may be better of becoming a courier on your bike.

[Sykes]

MBA747,

I guess it's fair to say that you and I are looking at the same industry and see two fairly different beasts.

I apologise if my (fairly positive) posts on this topic are viewed by you as "distorted". :(

I guess I just see the glass as being half full, and not half empty.

I'm a little busy right now, and don't have the time to go through each post and nit-pick about who wrote what, etc. I'll leave that to you.

If you want to continue this by PM, fine. Otherwise Cheers.

[BARON DRIVER]

Well written responce GLENB

I think the thing to do is get your instructing ticket, get into the instructing workforce. Do the hard yards, do right by the company you work for, even if you dont get the same. After all, you for the school because of its AOC, students fly with you because they respect your out look on instructing, and how well you teach them.

Main thing is keep your head up and dont let others cut your dreams down!