SAA to hire foreigners!!!

[beechbum]

Heard via the vine today that since SAA cannot find suitable AA candidates locally that they will be sourced from further afield. Any truth behind this? As someone that is sitting on the shortlist I was quite surprised that SAAPA would allow such a move but totally not surprised that the CEO would veto this action. Is this the beginning of the end?:eek:
Maybe its time.........!!!!!!!:{ :{

[Phenomenon]

If this is true it's going to cause some friction in the industry! How can an airline that is the national carrier of a country even consider employing foreign pilots if there is an abundant supply of eager and experienced pilots in the country who would do just about anything to fly for them?!?

And as far as I know if you are registered as a "Proudly South Africa" company operating in South Africa... as I'm sure SAA is... you're supposed to support South African development and local standards. How are you doing this if you employ foreigners. :=

Before they do this they just better do their research carefully because I'm sure ALPA, amongst others, will have something to say about this...

[Shrike200]

I was speaking recently with an engineer who has had a fair amount to do with BEE requirements in the civil engineering sector - I was quite shocked to learn that BEE requirements can easily be met by employing non-South Africans, as long as they are (of course) black. In the case quoted to me, the company was employing black Zim engineers, who are all keen on getting out of Zim, and very happy to have an SA engineers salary.

I would imagine that BEE requirements can just as easily be met by SAA using non SA pilots.

'Some friction' is perhaps an understatement! But it's not like we have any say in this uni-party 'democracy' of ours. I can only think of JG1's great post again - It's the "We win, you lose, suck it down and screw whats good for the country of South Africa" mentality at work. I would say 'get used to it', but frankly I doubt this comes as a big surprise to most. It remains to be seen whether sanity will prevail, I will stay hopeful.

As a further thought: I suppose it's obvious really. 'BEE' stands for 'Black Economic Empowerment' - it makes no mention of South Africa at all. JG1, you sure nailed it!

[springbok449]

Guys,

Lots of other national airlines employ foreigners including many South Africans and Southern Emisphere pilots so why not allow the mighty "springbok" to do the same?

[beechbum]

Springbok449, whose side are you on chap? I agree that places like the UAE, Hong Kong and a few other expat colonies will hire foreigners as there are no qualified locals to fill the positions,so take a look at the big picture my friend. You can't get a job in the UK, US, Aussie or Europe, if you don't have the right to live and work there.So why should the rules be bent to accomodate SAA? I think your comment is in poor taste.......!!!!!:=
So you would rather have the national carrier flown by Ghanians, Zimbabweans, Nigerians etc.., when there are suitably qualified SA pilots in the market place? Ummmm!!!! Like I said, if that's the case its time......!!!
Are you and Khaya big buddies, that you think in such an irrational manner.....
Take it elsewhere.......maybe the M25 .......!!!!!:ok:

[Shrike200]

SB449, it's not quite the same. If SAA wants to hire them based solely on their skin colour, AND when there are a great many qualified South Africans here......well, you can't really compare the two situations can you? Even worse would be making some kind of arrangements for them to get work/residency permits - that would be wildly unfair on the many SA guys knocking on the door of SAA right now. It's not the same as Cathay/Emirates etc, who hire based on an applicants suitability for the job, not his/her skin colour.

[porridge]

Don't be surprised guys (kerels) - it happened back in the past when SAA employed people from the UK when BA couldn't take on cadets they had sponsored at CSE they ended up flyng for SAA and when the call came for them to come back to BA many stayed with SAA and some of them are still there! It's just that they had the right skin colour then too I suppose.

[fluffyfan]

Sounds like a wind up to me. let me just reasure you, SAAPA could effectivley ground SAA with a pilot strike, and yes that would possibly be the end of SAA (I doubt it though where would all the black pilots fly, how would all the ministers and others abuse the gravy plane if SAA goes down?)

A move as suggested above would bring SAAPA to the brink of a strike, I highly doubt such a move would take place, not the way you suggest, there are rumours of a few 1 or 2 who have already got in but they had ID's so maybe something funny going on with the issue of citizenship, dont know.

Personally if it happened on a large scale and recruitment started from other coutries, I would support SAAPA in a strike, I would also start to pack my bags and head to greener pastures because I want no part of a country that treats its citizens like that

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I thought the whole point of the struggle was to move beyond the mindset where race is a factor.

Silly of me, I suppose....:hmm:

[Formally Known As]

Agree with springbok449. There are one hell of a lot of SA's flying for companies outside of "their" country, so what's the problem?

You chaps are going to have to learn quickly, that there is such a thing called reciprocation.

[flying paddy]

Maybe now you south africains will know how we brits feel when you come over to the Uk and take our jobs.

Paddy

[B Sousa]

"was to move beyond the mindset where race is a factor."
SRT didnt we just beat that dead horse?? Whitey has got to go, just a matter of how long it will take.


"Maybe now you south africains will know how we brits feel when you come over to the Uk and take our jobs."
Paddy maybe your not as good as those who took your job, ever consider that.................Put your Bose headset on and listen to the voices. In my company here in the states, we have Japanese, German, Swiss, Aussies, and yes one or two Brits.

[hyenacackle]

Its not about foreigners. That's not the point. Its about colour of skin
and that just pi......s me off. How can anybody approve of this. And
don't try and tell me about the :mad: past.

If this is true I hope a strike does happen and I hope SAA goes for a sh.....

Thank you for not flying SAA!

hie hie hie hie hie hie hie hie

[Treetopflyer]

And who told the :mad: brit that he could speak.

Probably the same one who told you you could cackle...

[Challenger-Deep]

Personally i reckon if you hire pilots from other countries thats fine - BUT a policy based on skin colour only when you have ample of your own citizens is an outright DISGRACE!!!!:=
At Cx and Ek you are hired from elsewhere due to a shortage of local suitable candidates and not a policy based on rectifying a demographic.

Paddy, exactly which SA pilots are you referring to? The one's that have UK and EU passports....Because they ARE actually allowed there as much as you are!!!!!!
Unlike pilots that according to this rumour would be joining a South African Airline from other African countries without South African passports.

I hope that this is just a rumour as it would be a very sad day for SA aviation.

[beechbum]

This is an emotive issue which I think that the likes of Paddy and FKA will never truly understand.:=
Let's hope that if this issue does materialise that SAAPA will stand up for all concerned.:ok:
Fluffyfan, must admit this is not the first time I've heard about this.....maybe there's truth in a rumour. Who knows? Let's hope not anyway.
By the way Paddy those that you refer to have the right to live and work on your land.....those that I refer to, do not!!!!
It's simple........from where I'm sitting, a very different scenario!!!!

[Jamex]

Well, I suppose this was always on the cards with the ANC having to pay back their "struggle" buddies. As the oldest liberation movement in Africa that could never in its entire history achieve anything worth a damn by themselves, they will always be paying back! The part that p:mad: 's me off is they use OUR tax money to achieve this! They carry on as if they have some sort of divine right to legalise theft from us to follow their own dubious agendas. They do NOTHING for the country, put nothing worthwhile back and in effect rape the country. They will continue to do this until they kill the goose which lays the golden egg and then starve like the rest of Africa at which point all the mighty Brits, Yanks, etc. will be called on to bail them out of the c:mad: p they created. Just like the entire African continent. Anyway, SAA have already employed people in management from other countries, including UK citizens. Seems the negative side of BEE conditions/requirements only apply to SA whites? I for one will not fly for SAA or with SAA should they implement this policy. Already Africa has the worst safety record in the world, now we must get these morons? Just like the Cuban doctors and teachers they want to force on us.

[starcrest]

Imagaine I am a government minister reading all this. First thing I would notice is that a white-hot button has been pushed and passion is gushing out. But being a rational guy I ignore the passion, comments about my party the ANC, governement etc and try to find the crux of the matter.

Is it about job protection, is it about want-to-get-ins being frustrated, is it about anti-SAAism or is it about foreigners? I trawl through the comments, then Eureka, I find an answer. Hyenacackle says it's about something I missed; skin colour and he also says he doesn't want to be reminded of the past.

So I phone my pal in the transport ministry who tells me that less than 5% of the pilots are black, so what's the problem?

But then he puts a spin on it; he says 10% of the population occupies 95% of the pilot jobs!! What's more, he says, many are ex-military pilots. Aaaaah I'm slowly getting it. No wonder Hyenacackle doesn't want to talk about the past.

So my takeout on this is; nobody is offering any constructive comments about my government's clearly stated and binding policy of black empowerment, i.e. helping those who have clearly been historically disadvantaged, which includes the world of aviation. Sadly I see that many threads are actually calling for the opposite... and ironically their own destruction by bringing SAA down.

Eeeeeish, and we own the airline too. I'm getting angry... :=

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Starcrest, so you're saying it's OK to bring in foreigners to do those jobs while qualified South Africans are excluded because of the colour of their skin? I think this was tried before and deemed to be a failure...:rolleyes: Last I looked two wrongs still didn't make a right.

By all means, encourage PDIs to participate and even pave the way for them to a certain extent but to blatantly discriminate against a sector of the population on the grounds of race is wrong and that's what's happening in this case. The barrier to entry for a white male at SAA is almost insurmountable, even in the face of crew shortages.

[fluffyfan]

SRT well put, we have people from outside of SA all commenting on things they dont really understand, its not the same issue as Ireland, or Emirates or Cathay, there is no shortage of crew here in SA, just a shortage of black crew.

flying paddy how would you like it if Ryanair suddenly decided that there were not enough Protestants in the company and even though there are qualified Prodestants in Ireland or Europe they decided to ignore those people and only hire from the US.........thats more like the situtaion we are talking about here.

Starcrest So my takeout on this is; nobody is offering any constructive comments about my government's clearly stated and binding policy of black empowerment, i.e. helping those who have clearly been historically disadvantaged, which includes the world of aviation. Sadly I see that many threads are actually calling for the opposite... and ironically their own destruction by bringing SAA down.

Have you read the "Affirmative action at SAA" thead ? why dont you go and read that thread properly and see if anyone is offering constructive comments.

They do NOTHING for the country, put nothing worthwhile back and in effect rape the country. They will continue to do this until they kill the goose which lays the golden egg and then starve like the rest of Africa at which point all the mighty Brits, Yanks, etc. will be called on to bail them out of the c p they created. Just like the entire African continent.

My opinion is that the "Mighty Brits , Yanks etc" do nothing to help anyone unless there is something in it for them ie oil, they have caused a great many problems in the world today and do very little to help anyone.....re Zimababwe

The pilots union at SAA is very powerfull, with 99.9% membership of the SAA pilots, when the Argentinians came to fly for SAA on contract it was a big process with lots of negotiation, I can assure you there has been no negotation about the hiring of foreign pilots to correct the race ratio, you would know if there was because the pilots would probably be on strike and SAA would probably cease to exist, in which case flying paddy I am coming with my British Passport to take your job.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

As I have posted elsewhere; Air Botswana did exactly the same thing some years ago with pilots, reject or otherwise, from Tanzania.
I well remember on a practice emergency gear drill, the captain under training said, with a cursory wave in the general direction of the emergency gear lever.

'I'll have that thing there.'

Better hope the CAA stops validating foreign licences?:E

[FlingWingKing]

Come on guys!!! Do you REALLY think SAA will go and do a stupid thing like that?? It just does not make sense.

starcrest, there have been lots of constructive comments regarding addressing the issue of blacks in the cockpit. Problem is that government wants a quick fix. They are just windowdressing for all I am concerned.

Dont treat the symptoms.......fix the problem causing it. That is the only longterm solution.

[fluffyfan]

Come on guys!!! Do you REALLY think SAA will go and do a stupid thing like that??

No I dont, because it would be the end of SAA, and management know that as well.

[beechbum]

Sadly I see that many threads are actually calling for the opposite... and ironically their own destruction by bringing SAA down.

Eeeeeish, and we own the airline too. I'm getting angry...

Starcrest get as angry as you want mate it's not going to solve the situation. In fact your short sightedness shows your lack of understanding in the issue at hand. At no attempts would individuals want to see the demise of SAA. I'm sure that would be totally rediculous. The issue here is that we are not promoting home grown talent within the industry whether it be black or white.
So in order that the situation at SAA is resolved, the rumour from Faulty towers is, that the CEO has suggested that pilots be sourced from other African nations.
Do you honestly see that as fair practice? I don't think so.
My aspirations of ever joing the carrier are diminishing on a daily basis from being so close to now being so far.
Get angry all you like....for it's us that will bear the brunt of one individuals decision.
FF I agree, I'm sure that SAAPA would have been onto this like a flash!! But do we know what is happening behind closed doors? After all we're not the decision makers we're just the drivers!
Anyway let's see what happens.....nothing like opening another can of worms on the race issue in SA again! Sorry!:E

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
I cannot for the life of me see why anyone should assume that common sense, integrity and long term plannning are the cornerstones of any airline's management policies. If it's whacky and destructive, most airline managers get there in the end. QED!:{

[Q4NVS]

Luckily this is only a rumour network, so I would say forget about it for now...

The way things are currently going at SAA, with all the talks of a LCC etc, there will not be any crew appointed (as far as I can gather), until all is sorted out.

As an example, it is believed that even current SAA Cadets with Link and SAX, who were due to join SAA now, have been awarded at least 6 month contract extensions with the Regionals, as SAA do not need crew until they have completely mapped the future.

In some arena´s that are apparently even talks of 50 Pilots in excess.:ugh:

[fluffyfan]

cavortingcheetah.........true story, however, the one thing SAA management and Government fear most of all at SAA is a pilot strike, they believe (hope) it will never happen and so do I because then I have to go and take flying paddys job from him.

The boss at SAA's one priority is to get SAA turning a profit, no matter what that involves, including shrinking like we are doing right now. He does not want to have to look his fellow "Native Club" members in the face and explain why the govenment now owes billions of $ to leasing companies and ticket holders, he also does not want to be responsible for 10 000+ jobs suddenly dissapearing and the fact that the ministers now have to travel on BA to get to parliment.............

Most times rumour is worse than the fact, lets just hope that this is one of those times.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

...even talks of 50 Pilots in excess.:ugh:


Say it isn't so...:( At this rate they'll need to equip the flight decks for wheelchair access to load all the old toppies waiting to join SAA.:E :}

[beechbum]

even talks of 50 Pilots in excess.

Strange when I hear that several A319 F/O's are rostered for P3 duty as the 340's are short of crew!!!!!! This was from the horses mouth...:ok:

[fluffyfan]

they are doing away with full time P3's, the 800 FO's are doing P3 duty on the 400 and the A319 FO's are doing it for the A340

[saywhat]

Say it isn't so...:( At this rate they'll need to equip the flight decks for wheelchair access to load all the old toppies waiting to join SAA.:E :}
With the retirement age increasing to 63, things are not likely to get easier!!:ugh:

[Shrike200]

....So I phone my pal in the transport ministry who tells me that less than 5% of the pilots are black, so what's the problem?

But then he puts a spin on it; he says 10% of the population occupies 95% of the pilot jobs!! What's more, he says, many are ex-military pilots....

An entirely plausible situation, put like that it shows the problem. BUT.....

So my takeout on this is; nobody is offering any constructive comments about my government's clearly stated and binding policy of black empowerment, i.e. helping those who have clearly been historically disadvantaged, which includes the world of aviation.

..THERE was where you botched the logic. Since when should anybody here feel obliged to call ANY other countries citizens 'historically disadvantaged'? Now you're saying we should get shafted because we somehow disadvantaged Tanzanians/Nigerians/Zimbabweans etc etc?!!?

The obvious problem (which you don't seem to mention), and the one which actually has to be addressed (as has been mentioned elsewhere), is the lack of black South African pilots. Again, read the whole discussion in the 'affirmative action in SAA' post, especially the part about 'throwing the net wider' (a constructive suggestion on getting more black people into SA aviation). So, some constructive suggestions have been made (you just didn't read them) and most people are in agreement that something must be done - we just disagree with some of the shortsighted plans about what to do. It's a free country, we can voice our opinions, not that anybody cares. Don't get upset about it.

[B Sousa]

"Better hope the CAA stops validating foreign licences?""

You had better hope that it is not Carte Blanche or you will have a really abundant supply of South Africans on the way home, unemployed...

[cavortingcheetah]

:D
Very humourously put Bert old Bean.
There will be a case of Black Label Johnnie Walker there then!;)

[SKYTORT]

Howzit everyone,

I must say we have all read some interesting things as far as the whole aviation industry is concerned. There were some really interesting posts, some crappy ones, and then there are the ones that just really hit the nail on the head!

I think it has become quite apparent what the feelings amongst the opposite coloured people are - and that counts for both parties. As a fellow (white)pilot I feel the pain of everybody else that has been "affected" by the change in the industry, and more generally speaking, the whole country...

Just remember the following:

Affirmative action is not based on skin colour as everybody thinks, but rather a very well written Act that now entitles the so called "previously disadvantaged" to experience what they have been deprived from. I am not going to go into detail, but I ask everybody to go and read the Employment Equity Act. Here you will find your answers for this unfair strategy we are all exposed to, but just remember this: It is their legal right to have these opportunities made available to them. It is written in our Constitution, and as a Constitutional State there is little we can do but relief them from some of the power they are given (i.e. go and vote!). As long as they hold majority in Parliament they can pretty much change the Constitution the way they want. And yes I am well aware of the procedures involved for changing the law, but just remember they fill almost all the seats in the Legislative body, the Executive body, and to a lesser extent the judicial body. Keep in mind the for making law, you want to have your power vested in the Legislative body (Parliament and the NCOP - National Council of Provinces) AND PARLIAMENT…eish..it’s very dark!

I guess what I am trying to say is, stop waisting time moaning and b:mad: ing about this stuff, and start paying your dues to the DA - Do you guys think Tony Leon is happy about this :mad: going on for us white people.

I can't believe I just spoke politics. Maybe I better say my famous last words...

:ok:

[porridge]

Skytort
You have hit the nail on the head:
Affirmative action is not based on skin colour as everybody thinks, but rather a very well written Act that now entitles the so called "previously disadvantaged" to experience what they have been deprived from. I am not going to go into detail, but I ask everybody to go and read the Employment Equity Act.
That applies to people in SA who were previously disadvantaged - it does not apply to every Tom, Dick and Harry who just has the right melanin levels from anywhere else except SA. If that is the law then employing anyone from beyond SA territory would be contrary to the act and discriminatory in its own right!

[SKYTORT]

Porridge,

Thanks for elaborating on what I am trying to say! I have indeed forgotten to mention the fact that it would indeed be unconstitutional for SAA to employ beyond the territories of the Republic. They will need very good ammo to justify their reason for employing black foreigners. IN FACT, they will have to prove that there are no suitably qualified people in the South African market.

It will be very unwise to employ black pilots from abroad (Unwise if anybody has the b:mad: lls to take them on in court) since we all know what this is really about. Having mentioned the courage required to take SAA to court as a private individual, you'll need, inter alia, good lawyers and some proof of damage suffered from their (SAA) actions.

Now we all know this is just so unrealistic, but if everybody understood the law and the so called democracy that South Africa is now to be built on, I guess we would all be much more eager to go and stand in the sun to cast our vote, because your vote really does carry weight in the political power play - it HAS to! So to all fellow PPRuners is the R.S.A, if you don't vote, then don't complain, but suck it up like a person with no say!!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Voting?

Kind of tricky when you can't get a job working in the country of your birth and are forced to seek employment outside the borders in some pretty remote places. Unfortunately, the attempts to disenfranchise those of us forced to work outside SA by way of not allowing us to vote overseas means we're pretty much powerless in that regard.:(

Hopefully all this will settle down in time and the politicians:yuk: will get their act together, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Shrike200]

As I mentioned earlier, in the engineering sector it's perfectly legal and acceptable to employ black foreigners to meet BEE targets - the law seems to allow for it somehow. I asked the engineer I spoke to earlier about this, and I was told work permits etc 'Weren't a problem'. As we speak they are going through CV's of black Zimbabwean engineers.

It should be easy enough to see that there are similarities between the engineering world and the flying world in terms of candidates, ie. lots of white SA engineers/pilots, and almost no black SA engineers/pilots. Ergo (my word for the day :) ), the same could potentially (and apparently legally) happen in the flying world, backlash or not.

[poorwanderingwun]

Bloody frightening when something as important as aviation safety depends on employing not those who are most capable but those with an acceptably low reflectivity index... :sad:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

It is the way of things, Grasshopper....:(

[fluffyfan]

Porridge and skytort.............thats all very nice in theory, however the reality is far different from the theory of the constitution.

The reality is that they are employing foreign people based on skin colour in all areas of employment in SA, just giving them ID doucuments and calling them South African, and as I said earlier a few have taken this route into SAA, it seems a Black person from anywhere in Africa is more valuable to the government of this land than a white person who's family may have been here for 6 or more generations.

My domestic worker (who is a Zimbabwean) has a house given to her by the ANC, she gets grants from the Govenment, free electricity, water, medical you name it she gets it all, all courtesy of the SA tax payer, there are many South Africans who have non of this and live on the streets..........theory and reality, two totally different things.

[TownshipDog]

This all makes one wonder, what will the black South African pilots in SAA and elsewhere in the aviation community have to say about this? After all, these foreigners are taking their jobs, that is assuming the jobs were earmarked for black pilots exclusively. Would love to hear what they have to say about this.

Oh, by the way Flying Paddy, didn't you do a spell flying in Botswana? Shame on you taking away some Botswanan's job like that...

[SKYTORT]

Fluffyfan,

I agree with what you are saying, and I guess as a relatively young person I still base my arguments on an academic level, rather than contrasting academics with experience - I guess the word "naive" is what I am looking for right?

The way I see it there is a lot of myth that we will never understand, nor get exposed to. For example, you mention about ID documents that get given away, and so another African becomes a South African. Is what you are saying fact or myth? Can you prove that with concrete evidence, or is it another story heard from people that know some people who hands out ID documents??:}

I am not actually trying to crack a joke here, but I think we must stop making someone's opinion our reality, and base our comments and frustration on the facts. The same goes for the story about the engineering field and emplying black people.

I cannot see how this could be done, and not be illegal, unless we are just to :mad: scared to challenge these companies and their unconstitutional act - if we truly live by The Constitution, and more specifically by Section 1 (c) which contain the words "supreme constitution and the rule of law", which in nutshell means that nobody is above the law. That's right, no President, no Company, not SAA - nobody. Well all said this is the minute academic part of it, as it was mentioned earlier, there is the academic side on the one scale, and the practical side on the other side.

It does indeed frustrate me to sit and fly in Africa, when I could have been at home (casting a vote) enjoying South Africa, but I guess our generation lives in its own unique little dipression - our transition into an apartheid free South Africa. Yes, I know some people will say "12 years is more than enough". Obviously it's not!

[FlingWingKing]

Lets hope this basket of Africa (RSA) does not also become a "basket case"......

[starcrest]

Mmmmmmmmmmm.

I like Shrike200's forthrightness, it's easier to understand than all the code.

I have read the SAA feed and it's sensible. The problem I have is that frequently used terms like "long term" and "over a period of time" etc. etc. are code for doing nothing now. Long term and action are strange bedfellows. It will take years and more years before a change is even vaguely visible and yes, I mean black crews. The objective of BEE is clearly about black advancement, it is about more racial balance.

So, for example if a black Zimbabwean with many thousand hours on a Boeing 737 applies to SAA, should we rather select a young white South African who has much less experience? Is that what Cathay Pacific do, other lines? How do we start at least showing that aviation in South Africa is not the exclusive domain of those who were once rich kids or military fighter/bomber pilots? I am struggling........

[Beeech19]

Starcrest

The difference is that if a white South African with thousands of 737 hours applied to Air Zim he would ALSO not get the job coz his not a local.

Eeesh...."I'm strugling...."

[Shrike200]

This is a long post, the summary is at the bottom!

Starcrest, you may call it code, but they're just speaking logically - you cannot make somebody into an airliner captain overnight - logically, since it takes many years of being an F/O before company minimums will be met. There really isn't some hidden agenda here - I think I can safely speak for everybody when I say that 'hanging onto power', and other such nonsensical ideas which have been quoted on these forums in the past, do not feature in any rational persons thinking.

And people aren't 'doing nothing', they're actively having black crewmembers gain experience, in order to one day get command. No matter which way you take it, that DOES take time. If you mean that more black pilots should be in training, well, thats a different story, and the problem there is one of finances. Even SAA cannot afford to train hundreds of pilots to CPL, frozen ATP, plus a few hours experience.

Your example regarding a foreign black pilot is the crux of the matter. White people understand BEE to be a policy that allows black people to gain an economic foothold, and I feel the great majority accept that. We understand that the past system disadvantaged them, and BEE is the means of redressing the imbalance that has resulted - but what we do NOT accept is that the government would include foreigners before it's own citizens IF THE LOCALS MET THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS. Sure, if they were unable to source sufficient local people to do the job, then obviously look abroad (a la Cathay etc), since then they could say to the Dept. of Home Affairs "Please let this person stay, we need them, and cannot find anybody here to do the job", as is the norm in other countries. We (if I can say 'we' as white South Africans) did NOT disadvantage the citizens of other countries in Africa by apartheid. (People my age had nothing to do with apartheid either, but that logic doesn't seem to wash somehow!) They were free to do as they pleased without any repressive laws etc.

But to go into greater detail regarding your example - in normal circumstances, that Zimbabwean pilot with more experience on type should have no reason to be allowed to work in SA and gain SA citizenship. Therefore, the less experience white pilot would get the job, again, provided he or she met the minimums. BUT, the government has specifically crafted the BEE laws to allow the employment of anybody, as long as they are black. THAT'S the part we find unfair - what do I owe anybody from Zim/Tanzania/Ghana etc? Why should they benefit at my expense, when I (and many others more experienced than me) am denied the chance of a job flying for MY national airline?

To quote an example of my own - should SAA start employment drives amongst the African American pilot population? Your logic says they should! Yet, they were obviously not disadvantaged by apartheid...

I will now quote as specifically as I am able to, especially for you SKYTORT:
A certain civil engineering consulting firm (I have been asked not to name them, purely for privacy - they are NOT breaking any laws, but rather seek to comply with the governments BEE policies, as you'll see now), has just advertised posts for design engineers to be employed by them. They only advertised in Zimbabwe, since they were not able to find suitably experienced black engineers in the initial (SA) search as far as I understand. The engineer I have been speaking to is currently processing the CV's. That person is 100% sure that work permits will be happily issued by the government - as they said (I quote) 'Duh! Otherwise we wouldn't have advertised there!' This person also felt that the governments BEE policy clearly allowed for it, although they couldn't quote specifics. Nonetheless, it IS happening, right now, in full compliance with the law, in letter and spirit.

Summary:

- I think that most white people understand the point of BEE, but feel it is specifically to redress the imbalance caused by SA's past repressive laws, and should therefore benefit those people who were actually repressed, ie Black South Africans. Nobody else.
- In normal circumstances, foreign pilots applying to work here would need to prove that nobody here could do the job. This is not the case here, but nonetheless, I have seen evidence that professionals in other fields are being given work permits (at the very least) when qualified (white) SA people already exist to fill the job. I therefore feel that this is possible in the aviation job market, and that it is just as unfair and unethical there as here.

Thats enough for now...

[nutcracker43]

Lets hope this basket of Africa (RSA) does not also become a "basket case"......

Oh, but it will..why should you be any different?

NC43

[FlingWingKing]

I say give the job to the Zimbo's....at least they will appreciate it. South African Blacks dont want to do the job, but want to reap the benefits....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I would rather want to fly with a black Zimbo who has passion for what he does, than some rich kid black washout who is "trying" to ride this new wave of apartheid!!

Hey starcrest what is xhosa for apartheid?????????

Problem with YOU starcrest is that you want the whites to dissappear................

Aah f:mad: this, take this country and rape it into shape. It is not black enough for africa...............

[fluffyfan]

starcrest please explain to me again why a black Zimbabwean living in his own country which is run by the man he voted in, who has never paid 1 cent of tax money to South Africa ever should get a position in SAA before a white South African who has? It worries me that people like you think that this should be allowed, that you cant see the obvious injustice in this line of thinking, I like to be optimistic about SA's future but when I see statements like you made I have to wonder if we are taking the same route as the rest of Africa, the only problem with this is that there are no more countries left in Africa to run to when this one is stuffed up.

Zimbabwe has made its own bed, now they must lie in it, they have created there own problems due to there hatred of the white man, or settler as they call them, please dont take SA down the same road I think its pretty obvious where that road leads.

[nutcracker43]

Fluffyfan

QUOTE=fluffyfan starcrest please explain to me again why a black Zimbabwean living in his own country which is run by the man he voted in,...that you cant see the obvious injustice in this line of thinking,
Zimbabwe has made its own bed, now they must lie in it, they have created there own problems.

Has South Africa not done the same? Are you fully aware of the irony here...is there no conflict in your mind when you use the words you do. Think about it, lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking..

NC43

[porridge]

The question now must surely be – “do you want a well-paid airline job or not?” Because if you do you may have to compromise between being in your homeland or elsewhere in the more civilized world.
I was talking to an acquaintance in the airline recruiting game who told me that there are a couple of airlines that he deals with who have aircraft sitting on the ground due to lack of crews. Although there is a fairly plentiful supply of low hour’s pilots there is a real shortage of people with jet or turbine experience who could be fast-tracked to command.
I suggested that SA may have a pool of experienced pilots who may be available, subject to getting JAR Conversions and work permits. He suggested that I put out a feeler on PPRuNe and see what the interest level was as if there are people prepared to move, with suitable experience, then work permits and sponsorship for the conversion may be found for the right candidates. Obviously people with experience on wide-bodied jet would be at the top, but SA ATPL qualified pilots with 2000 hours plus and at least a 1000 hours on turbines may be also an option to consider he reckons.
Still it is really a ‘toe in the water exercise’ at the moment, but is there is some interest revealed on the Africa forum – he may put it to his superiors to put together and package that would satisfy them and their client.
No PM’s at this stage please!

[Beechdrivr]

Well mate, where do i sign up, cos at the current rate things are going i doubt i'll ever get an opportunity back home.:ugh:

[starcrest]

Hey starcrest what is xhosa for apartheid?????????

FWK do you mean isiXhosa, the language? Apartheid is an AngloAfrikaans word, but try this; Bonke abantu bazalwa bekhululekile belingana ngesidima nangokweemfanelo.....

For those who don't speak isiXhosa it means; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

[cavortingcheetah]

:ooh:

That translates very nicely into English, or did it translate from the English? Never mind!
'All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights' is practical nonsense. It may be desirable but it is in effect nothing more than a statement of intent, belief or dogma. It is as fanciful a statement as that which holds that all men are inherently evil. Well, now hold on, that might be tutu much, I suppose!:eek:
I subscribe to the suggestion (I think it was, at the least, an idea ?) of a previous poster. The relocation of experienced pilots! It would be an excellently funny situation if the vast majority of such pilots were to depart South Africa for pastures of a more stable colour where job security and opportunities were based on ability and a past track record and not, as would seem to be the case down south, upon a racial basis so oft decried by those who now take the most advantage. What arrant hypocrisy is this?:yuk:

[FlingWingKing]

FWK do you mean isiXhosa, the language? Apartheid is an AngloAfrikaans word, but try this; Bonke abantu bazalwa bekhululekile belingana ngesidima nangokweemfanelo.....

For those who don't speak isiXhosa it means; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

........why do I get the feeling that statement only applies to black "Africans"??

I thought the whole idea behind AA and BEE was to level the playing fields and correct the wrongs of the past for our local black people. Giving jobs to blacks from other countries just to get the demographics right, borders more on absolute discrimination than AA or BEE for that matter.

What about that little boy in one of our townships who realy wants to fly, but can not afford to? Is it fair to discriminate against him also, because he has not been afforded an oppurtunity to get himself qualified?

If my neighbour is an absolute idiot and doesn't feed his children, should I starve mine? I DO NOT THINK SO.

If your goverment started with a proper programme 12 years ago to address the imbalances in the cockpit, we would have had heaps of properly qualified SOUTH AFRICAN black pilots to choose from.

Dont shy away from your responsibilities make sure your kids are fed properly before helping your neighbour...........THAT my friend, is the right thing to do!!

[Shrike200]

Has South Africa not done the same? Are you fully aware of the irony here...is there no conflict in your mind when you use the words you do. Think about it, lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking..
NC43

The actual irony here is that you didn't grasp what everybody is arguing about - we're talking about BEE/AA being used to advantage black people from OTHER African countries - not SA. We understand that problems with OUR past for OUR citizens must be adressed - just not why other African citizens should benefit from our attempts to do so.

So, in conclusion - Think about it lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking...(in other words, take your own advice)

[SKYTORT]

cavortingcheetah,

You're a funny man!

Keep it up...:ok:

[118.9]

Funny old aviation thread this, lots about lift, drag and a little thrust. No doubt a (successful) wind-up. But the point about BEE quotas being filled by foreign tanned nationals has been well and truly made. Any reporters out there?? If so you have an excellent topic to publish which no doubt will raise a furore and earn you a bonus..

Starcrest, here's a real quote from a famous person you might have forgotten;

"Blaming things on the past does not make them better" Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela.:rolleyes:

[nutcracker43]

The actual irony here is that you didn't grasp what everybody is arguing about - we're talking about BEE/AA being used to advantage black people from OTHER African countries - not SA. We understand that problems with OUR past for OUR citizens must be adressed - just not why other African citizens should benefit from our attempts to do so.
So, in conclusion - Think about it lad! There is only one way with this confused thinking...(in other words, take your own advice)

Thanks for that shrike...I'm perfectly aware of the situation and I have sympathy with the people in the situation...however, the irony (you do understand the meaning) of fluffs words seem to have been lost on many of the contributors and it is to that that I referred...tell me, what makes you think I do not know of the situation in SA, political, economic and from a job perspective?

Your answer, such as your previous arguments should be telling.

In anticipation then...thanks.

NC43

[Shrike200]

Ok, perhaps you referred to the the fact the we supposedly voted for our current president. I felt your post wasn't clear on that. In any case, I think you'll find it unspoken that many (if not most) white people here didn't vote for the ANC and their inane policies - this subject being a good example. Our vote is too small to mean very much, so (as you may have seen in this thread alone), black people will refer to them as 'my government', while whites will refer to them as 'your government'. Hence I, and possibly others, didn't even consider fluffyfans statement ironic at all.

Thats quite enough from me then.

[fluffyfan]

NC43 ..........yes, well, OK, not 100% sure what you are refering to.
:ugh:

My point at the risk of reiterating what a few people on this thread have already said is how can anyone justify a foreign pilot getting a job in the State airline, before a local pilot soley based on the colour of there skin? you cant justify it simple.

Our situation is unique in the world, it is very difficult for anyone who has not lived/worked here to understand the problems we have or go through here, so although I value comments from people in the UK and abroad, you may be basing your comments on what you percieve South Africa to be like, and your good old days of marching on South Africa House with a sign that read "Free Mandela". My advice to you lad, is maybe you should look to your own respecive countries before you start throwing stones here, I believe you have large racial issues in France, the UK, the USA, Australia, you name it, we in SA are trying to solve our problems, we just dont agree on some of the methods used.

[B Sousa]

" how can anyone justify a foreign pilot getting a job in the State airline, before a local pilot soley based on the colour of there skin? you cant justify it simple."

Fluffster, point well made, however those who are NOW running the show don't have to justify squat.......and honestly, not much you can do about it.....

[nutcracker43]

Fluffyfan

The irony of which I spoke was that you were whining about how the Zims voted, made their beds and now should have to lie without realising what you were saying because the same thing has happened in SA. You perhaps have not voted for the current govt but others have and an outsider could equally say that you have made your beds and should lie in it. I have not thrown any stones as you will see should you care to read what I wrote...not a problem for me if you react the way you do if anyone makes a comment about SA...time to grow up and start removing those chips...Difficult if you don't understand 'irony' of what you were saying....so perhaps I shan't go further.

I have already stated that one has sympathy for your situation; it is not right in the slightest but the status quo is there to stay...nothing much will change the philosophy of the current ruling elite and it therefore behoves one to do the best one can to obviate the situation in which you find yourself. As for perceiving what SA is like....I know very well what it is like and I have never marched on SA house as you have suggested. I do not need your advice in any shape or form because you were probably still a suckling child when I was doing my ACF training (1962)... so lecturing me on perspectives is a crock of you know what. English side of the family (1820)...French side (1662). Difference between you and me is that I did something about it...I saw which way I thought things were going to go and acted accordingly. It turned out that I was right...I have no regrets. BTW I spent a couple of weeks with a chum of mine canvassing for the elections in March when he stood for office...I reakon I got a pretty good idea of what things were like...

NC43

[Shrike200]

Must. Resist. Posting...Ugh! Sorry, I can't help myself!

...I do not need your advice in any shape or form because you were probably still a suckling child when I was doing my ACF training (1962)... so lecturing me on perspectives is a crock of you know what.
NC43

Nope. That wasn't arrogant at all. Definately not. Nooo sir!

We can remove some chips if you can climb down from your lofty perch! ;)

[nutcracker43]

Shrike, old lad. Thanks for your post...No lofty perches for me thanks...both feet firmly on the ground, no chips on my shoulders and as for your submission: We can remove some chips if you can climb down from your lofty perch! ;)

All I can say here is that that seems the way you appear to do business...I admire ambition in a person...only problem is that you do not appear to have any.

NC43

[FlingWingKing]

OK boys........take this outside, will you please.????

[fluffyfan]

NC43........thanks for your family history grandpa.

Your attitude just reinforces my belief that old farts like yourself should be put out to pasture sooner, rather than later.

I find that people who have left SA for "greener pastures" often post here, stating the impending doom, peril we are in and how you made the right choice and got out when you could...............well good for you, so glad it has worked out for you, however there are people like myself who like living here in SA, we are trying to live and work in the "New South Africa" we sometime dont agree with what the government is doing but we understand alot of what they are trying to do, they may not be doing the best job but at least they are trying, with people like myself and my fellow South Africans we are trying to build a better future, not simply bolting at the first sign of trouble taking what you can get and running to a place that can give you more..............

Tell you what Grandpa, you enjoy France, hope retirement is good for you, just please stop occupying my time and energy by posting your condescending arrogant drivel here.

[Parrot]

Interesting thread ... but it seems nobody has actually read the fine print on the BEE legislation.

To qualify for BEE status a person must have been a South African citizen and resident in South Africa "prior to March 1994" ... so whilst hiring foreign black or white nationals might have a business reason ... it aint going to help with improving a company's BEE score. In fact ...to try and include a foreign (black) person to increase ones BEE score is actually against the law ..and punishable by fines etc..

I personally dont agree with most (nearly all) of the BEE legislation ... but it sure is written a bit smarter than most people on this thread give it credit for.

[nutcracker43]

Fluffyfan

Thanks for that fluffyfan! Perhaps you feel better now...personal abuse tends to mean that the argument is being lost, however, I would urge you to read what I actually said rather than what you think I said. Some of you fellows are beginning to sound like the Mad hatter at the tea party where one can say anything that they want it to mean rather than what was meant and said..

Oh, and bye the way, I have spent a great part of my working life flying in Africa.

All the best.

NC43

[B Sousa]

"To qualify for BEE status a person must have been a South African citizen and resident in South Africa "prior to March 1994" ... so whilst hiring foreign black or white nationals might have a business reason ... it aint going to help with improving a company's BEE score. In fact ...to try and include a foreign (black) person to increase ones BEE score is actually against the law ..and punishable by fines etc.."

Parrot.....Just out of curiosity to you really believe that would be enforced??

[Shrike200]

Fluffyfan
...personal abuse tends to mean that the argument is being lost....
NC43

Exactly. When you (for some reason unfounded by any possible logic) claim this about me...

..I admire ambition in a person...only problem is that you do not appear to have any.

..you're doing what you seem to dislike, attacking me personally, without any reason. Apparently your lofty standards only apply to others, not yourself. I fail to see why anyone need lend any weight to your opinions anymore. You've proved Fluffyfan 100% correct. Feel free to come up with some more juvenile 'logic',nobody here need defend their actions to you anymore.

Now onto a relevant note:
To qualify for BEE status a person must have been a South African citizen and resident in South Africa "prior to March 1994" ... so whilst hiring foreign black or white nationals might have a business reason ... it aint going to help with improving a company's BEE score. In fact ...to try and include a foreign (black) person to increase ones BEE score is actually against the law ..and punishable by fines etc..


Thanks for that, I must ask about that. I unfortunately only have the one example that I know of (two actually, the other is in a government department!) - All I know is that it does seem to be happening. I would rather be wrong, it would restore some faith in AA/BEE.

[nutcracker43]

Hello Shrike,

This is becoming tiresome...read my 61, para 1 10th word and elsewhere.
'
Your comment about my 'decent from my lofty perch where you and others might attempt 'to remove (your imagined) chips' appeared to be something else...an attack of sorts...a challange perhaps? I'm long past the' see you behind the bicycle sheds' variety and it was to this that I referred...in all probability that may have been a difficult task, an ambitious one, and was the ambition to which I referred, coupled, of course with the, perhaps, justified, but unalterable, moan about your situation.

When things cannot be changed it is useless wasting time on them and other avenues should be sought. I had the same problem many years ago which is why I moved...you and others might not want to, or even approve, of this course (I seemed to be attacked for that)...that is your choice...many SA accents on the airwaves in the Gulf, the Far East and Europe...even amongst the national carriers. Different laws apply in the US however...

NC43

[beechbum]

Hey girls, thanks for the slanging match. I see the thread has deteriorated to nothing but an attack on others. C'mon guys pull it together.
4HP time to bin it. I think we've got the drift by now!!!!

[starcrest]

Unfortunately it seems that whenever this type of topic is discussed crude xenophobia creeps in, sad!

Well done Parrot, that sorts out the foreign black question as far as BEE scores are concerened, although I must admit some of my colleagues simply see all blacks as HDAs. But we do have a serious constitution and an independent legal system, so please expose any funny business you might see.

I am still missing the point about my hypothetical Zimbabwe 737 pilot with lots of experience on type. If we have a shortage of 737 pilots in SAA, isn't it cheaper to hire this guy than train a youngster with much less experience? I know this is what Cathay, Singapore, China, Saudi and many other airlines would do.

If this is the case then why shouldn't we give preference to pilots from the region before taking them from further afield? And I am not ashamed to admit that I would feel proud occasionally having a black captain announcing that we are crossing the Orange River at 33 000 feet.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

If we have a shortage of 737 pilots in SAA, isn't it cheaper to hire this guy than train a youngster with much less experience? I know this is what Cathay, Singapore, China, Saudi and many other airlines would do.

The difference is that there's no shortage of well qualified pilots who could easily be trained as 737 FOs in SA. These folks aren't being used because the positions are being filled by people who suit the demographic and political agenda (whether local or foreign), who aren't necessarily as qualified as they are.

SAA's apparent crew shortage could be alleviated by these people but they don't fit the requirement due to certain characteristics deemed undesirable by the political masters.

[nutcracker43]

Starcrest

QUOTE=starcrest I am not ashamed to admit that I would feel proud occasionally having a black captain announcing that we are crossing the Orange River at 33 000 feet.

Beginning to adopt a certain mindset, wouldn't you say?

NC43

[FlingWingKing]

Hey starcrest,

There are also a lot of suitably "qualified" polititions in Zimbabwe that could easily fill some posts in parliment....should that be allowed/tolerated if we run "short" of polititions.........or are there enough "experienced" ones around these days??

"I am still missing the point about my hypothetical Zimbabwe 737 pilot with lots of experience on type."

Clearly you are missing the point, sadly!! How many more poor people do you want to create??

Quote "starcrest, there have been lots of constructive comments regarding addressing the issue of blacks in the cockpit. Problem is that government wants a quick fix. They are just windowdressing for all I am concerned.

Dont treat the symptoms.......fix the problem causing it. That is the only longterm solution. Unquote

This was one of my previous posts.....care to respond??

How about the following one.???

Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcrest
FWK do you mean isiXhosa, the language? Apartheid is an AngloAfrikaans word, but try this; Bonke abantu bazalwa bekhululekile belingana ngesidima nangokweemfanelo.....

For those who don't speak isiXhosa it means; All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.


........why do I get the feeling that statement only applies to black "Africans"??

I thought the whole idea behind AA and BEE was to level the playing fields and correct the wrongs of the past for our local black people. Giving jobs to blacks from other countries just to get the demographics right, borders more on absolute discrimination than AA or BEE for that matter.

What about that little boy in one of our townships who realy wants to fly, but can not afford to? Is it fair to discriminate against him also, because he has not been afforded an oppurtunity to get himself qualified?

If my neighbour is an absolute idiot and doesn't feed his children, should I starve mine to feed his? I DO NOT THINK SO.

If your goverment started with a proper programme 12 years ago to address the imbalances in the cockpit, we would have had heaps of properly qualified SOUTH AFRICAN black pilots to choose from.

Dont shy away from your responsibilities make sure your kids are fed properly before helping your neighbour...........THAT my friend, is the right thing to do!! Unquote

Somehow I doubt I will get ANY response from you........if you ignore the problem long enough, it will go away....right? Why dont YOU, for a chance, come up with some constructive suggestions as to how we can address the cockpit issue properly. How we can help OUR people who are living in absolute squalor conditions created by both apartheid and the present governments "silent" actions!!!!!!!

[Shrike200]

And here I am again, harping on as well.....concerning that example I posted on before, regarding the engineering company - I had a chance to speak to my engineer (civil) friend again. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that when they are 'audited' for BEE points/compliance (if thats the right word), absolutely nobody is concerned about where the black people came from, just as long as they're black. The only thing they have become concerned about lately, is how much of a say the black people have in the company, ie. whether the black people have an actual vote or some sort of power in the company, and aren't there for the sole purpose of garnering BEE points.

Perhaps the government turns a blind eye in the engineering field because they themselves are struggling very hard to look representative in their engineering departments (the other example I am aware of) - in one department alone, 60% (or more) of the engineers are not South African (but are black). The government is desperate to set an example, but cannot compete well with the private engineering firms when it comes to salaries - hence the employment of whoever it can get, regardless of nationality, as long as they are black. Therefore, they turn a blind eye to this bending of the rules in the private sector. This set of circumstances is not so applicable to SAA though, who still set the high mark for pilot salaries in South Africa.

It's logical, I can see how that situation would develope. In any case, we can await developments at SAA. You know what they say, 90% of the things you worry about don't happen...... ;)