BMI

[LTNman]

From the BBC

BMI is cancelling some of its services between Scotland and London in the period just before and after the New Year break, it has emerged.
The airline, previously known as British Midland, has reassured passengers that it has no intention of permanently cutting the route.

A spokesman said that the services were so empty that the firm had no choice but to reduce flights.

BMI has recently cut some transatlantic routes and many of its onboard frills.

Chief executive Nigel Turner told BBC Radio's Good Morning Scotland programme that the decision on the Scottish routes was prompted by a low number of seasonal passengers.

Mr Turner said: "With it being the holiday season we do very closely examine the loads and if there is a specific flight, or one or two specific flights, where demand is very low then we will cancel those.

"BMI operates day-to-day from Edinburgh and Glasgow into London Heathrow, we've done so for the last 30 years and will continue to do so for the next 30 years."

Flights being cut on the Glasgow and Edinburgh routes to London Heathrow include services due to fly between 31 December and 4 January.

[Richard Taylor]

Read this also today.

Don't airlines do this every holiday period though (Christmas, Easter,bank hols).

Here, Eastern cancel a whole bunch of flights over the Christmas/New Year period, as no business demand.

Likewise BA cancel some London schedules, same reason.

Perhaps the story (or non-story??) is giving credence to the impression of BMI being in some sort of "trouble", going by other posts I've read on the airline.

[Jamesair]

Something of a "non-story", scheduled flights carrying a lot of business people around the holiday periods are generally trimmed to meet demand.

[Jan the man]

It also seems bmi have dropped the Luton-Brussels route, which was due to start in March 06. The route is not available for booking on their website anymore.

J

[Flightrider]

It is not unusual to cut a couple of frequencies late on 31 December and early on 1 January. However, around that time, travel is usually at a peak - and especially so on routes like Edinburgh where the destination sees an influx of tourists for new year.

The other thread previously running about bmi's appallingly poor performance seems to have disappeared some time ago. However, this is just another sign that passengers have deserted bmi in significant numbers and that other airlines - including BA - are benefitting from some increase in marketshare.

[G-LOST]

bmi always trim back services at Xmas / New Year. Nothing startling there, we like the chance to go on stby for a couple of weeks and have a breather. Same for many other airlines.

The routes to Scotland, especially those from bases other than LHR, are generally pitched at business passengers, albeit without business service in many cases. The fares reflect this. I do not think the airline would attract many New Years revellers at the fares charged. No sleep lost.

The Luton pipe-dream has been canned as the aircraft is required elsewhere. It was never going to happen...

Back to my beer and mince pies.

[Flightrider]

If that is indeed the case, it is a surprising admission by bmi that they just cannot attract the leisure market. I recall flying EDI-LHR a few years ago on 02Jan on a BA 767-300 because demand merited the upgrade from the 757. If bmi is cancelling flights at the same time and parking the aircraft, heaven help them. No other bugger will.

[flyer55]

Does anybody know why their was a BMI aircraft in LGW the other day ?

[Yellow Sun]

BMI is cancelling some of its services between Scotland and London in the period just before and after the New Year break, it has emerged.

Nice to see the Beeb up with the latest! British Midland/bmi have been doing this for the last 18 years to my knowledge, maybe even longer. A total non-story.

YS

[bmibabyfc]

i agree with the canx of certain flights, why run a high freq of flights with low pax on certain flights??? - just change them to the later or earlier flight. The good thing about doing this, and in particular bmi's case was that the flights were not canx on the day,it was pre done, which meant all pax would have been aware!

fao flyer55 - you sure it wasnt a baby a/c in lgw the other day?? we now operate a lgw-mme following pulling out of the lgw base some time ago.

regards

bmibabyfc

[spotwind]

With G Lost on this...

Most scheduled airlines trim back over the xmas break, you know how it is, everyone is killing time between xmas and new year, Nothing gets done, business is slack !

Why fly an empty aircraft?

As for BMI in gatwick........ if there's no scheduled business pax over the hols, why not slip in a charter....and make some money



:ok:

[flyer55]

It was a BMI Painted aircraft

[moleslayer]

You are correct flyer55.............

bmi have secured a weekend charter contract for a series of Winter charters from London Gatwick. Because Christmas falls over a weekend, LGW-GVA will commence operations on Saturday 24th December, however LGW-BCN initially operates on a Monday but switches to a Sunday operation from 8th January 2006.

moley.

[CAP493]

The Luton pipe-dream has been canned

A shame, but then it would probably have lasted only about 18 months i.e. until Eurostar begins operating from St Pancras International.

Will also be interesting to see what happens to easyJet's LTN/CDG services at this time...

:confused:

[doo]

So this morning, the only early shchd to London from GLA, Guess who, bmi!, yep, no BA, Easy, Ryan, etc. Just old bmi. I guess thats news! better tell the papers. BD001 early out and into LHR.

[DTVAirport]

I know this type of thread is supposed to be for Airport's but I'm doing one for my favourite Airline.

What's the chances they'll put 2005 behind them and turn things around in 2006?

[egnxema]

....s L I M....

[bmibabyfc]

a very good chance, but as ive said in my prev posts, it will be an interesting year!!

come xmas nxt year we will see whether or not all these changes have worked......

[ManAtTheBack]

a very good chance, but as ive said in my prev posts, it will be an interesting year!!
come xmas nxt year we will see whether or not all these changes have worked......

It is already clear that bmi have lost losts of former high fare business customers. Whether bmi makes up for that with lots of low fare passengers is doubtful.

[VHF FLYER]

I know this type of thread is supposed to be for Airport's but I'm doing one for my favourite Airline.
What's the chances they'll put 2005 behind them and turn things around in 2006?


I would guess they are a mile away from getting it right.
I'm a BMi Diamond Club Gold Card Holder but have not booked anything with them for quite a while and am unlikely to in the immediate future.
Why?
1. I have no idea what they stand for anymore - high cost BA look alike or low cost pretender to the EasyJet crown? - probably neither. The Libdems of the airline world.
2. Long haul is a mess. Ws using them from Man - an excelllent product but have heard so much nonsense about them pulling out/not pulling out (including plenty on this rumour network), I'm much more likely to book on an airline that's in it 'for the long haul'. There is no way I will book a flight that ultimately gets pulled and I get an offer of a shuttle down to LHR to connect with a UA flight. This is missing the point -ie avoid LHR at all cost.
3. Finally - I just want them to be a viable alternative to BA so badly, but they've let me down by failing.

Please merge with Virgin and make a fist of it.

[flyingfrog]

bmibabyfc - you keep mentioning something big or interesting is going to happen at bmi this year. Can you not elaborate and give us some more detail?

Apart from what we already know, e.g. new routes to Jeddah, Doha and Mumbai going daily, I can't see there being any further expansion of longhaul this year. Where are the aircraft coming from to do this? EU - US talks seem to have gone quiet, again even if a positive outcome is found to this, ops will not start until 2007 in reality and again only if suitable aircraft can be found.

Shorthaul is not a growth area due to the loco competition, so I can't see this as the solution.

Don't get me wrong, I'm keen to see bmi progress in the right direction, but at this moment in time struggle to see how!:confused:

[Euravia First]

Like VHF Flyer, I too am a Diamond Club Card Holder [although Silver not Gold in my case] and am in the same position of not having used BMI for a while---In my case not for a year. Why? Well the main reason is the poor Heathrow experience. On my last two BMI flights back from Nice the terminal facilities were simply not up to standard. In the first case,a jammed baggage belt system with no one around for ages to ask to fix it---this was around 10.30 at night---and on the second "late" arrival the terminal access road for the Pink Elephant car park shuttle was closed. No one was around to tell me that the [at that time quiet] road was closed and that I had to go upstairs to the departure level road. Hence a long cold frustrating wait. No more Nice via Heathrow for me!
The result is that I have returned to Easyjet via Bristol. I moved to BMI via Heathrow to avoid the boarding scramble that is part of the Orange experience---but have come to the conclusion that it is worth enduring the boarding in order to use the relatively pleasant airport of Bristol.
Why do BMI not fly from Bristol? If they did then I would be happy to use DTVAirport's favourite airline again.
P.S. In case you are wondering, I have retained my card by using it on other Star Alliance airlines [Thai in particular]. The Thai Heathrow experience is not something I enjoy but at least it is T3 rather than T1

[UPSAirOps]

FlyingFrog - heard something about an Emirates A330 being leased, possibly posted on this forum a while back but I'm not certain.

[DTVAirport]

FlyingFrog - heard something about an Emirates A330 being leased, possibly posted on this forum a while back but I'm not certain.
The Emirates A330 belongs to bmi, Emirates are "looking after it" until bmi have use for it. They're leasing an A333 from Qatar.

[faultygoods]

if bmi have an A330 being looked after by emerates why are they wet leasing a 757 for their 4th longhaul route???
Also ask the engineers at NEMA if the airline will be going places this year??????? when you do 'Duck' cos the base maintenance facility is closing down there, most of the eng staff being made redundant

[Skyflier]

If bmi have a current business plan they are keeping it well hidden but we will see the results in time. If it is like the one they have been following for the last five years it will take them further down the road of turning what was a highly successful short haul airline that competed strongly on major European trunk routes and provided a service that business travellers were willing to pay a premium for and leisure travellers willing to pay reasonable fares for in to a more fragmented organisation with no route structure that supports business travel and a base that does not appeal to leisure travellers in the main other than as a transfer point where they now won't interline your baggage making LHR more unattractive than it is already to many people. Long haul routes will develop further at the cost of short haul and there will be no passengers to interline to long haul from their short haul network and no onwards connections for long haul inbound so their routes will be of dubious worth.

Assuming they get rights in to the US from LHR, to get the slots they need to compete with BA they would have to decimate the current hopeless offering and they still would not match the others. After all, is one BD rotation to JFK going to affect travel in the market when BA operate seven rotations on that route alone? I think not. I'm a *G card holder who has not set foot on BD since May last year and I can't see me doing it any time soon as although I was brand loyal for many years they pushed me too far in terms of schedules and poor service that I moved everything I spent with them to BA and now I wonder why I put up with them for so long. Do they really think that people are going to opt to pay Premium Economy fares that cost more than Business Class did 12 months ago for the current level of service and paid for food? That thinking is crazy. I know many others in the same position and I don't think there is anything much they could do to recover the business that they have thrown back in our faces with their chaotic, negligent management. They supposedly introduced the August 2005 changes after surveying 10 000 people, does anyone know anyone who was surveyed, I don't and don't know anyone who does. They recently surveyed 200 former business class travellers who were also members of Diamond Club, I know more than 20 people who were surveyed then - does that tell you anything about the 10 000?

Their chances of turning things around? None.

[shuttlebus]

Have had quite a few trips with bmi this year, but all BHD-LHR, where we still have a business class:) Service has been excellent "up front" but trips "down the back" on BA, pre-catering crisis felt better (15+ months since last BA flight, so they may have changed considerably)

However, I must admit that the new bmi fare structure has caused some confusion.... the company I work for tend to book quite a few people between BHD and LHR each month and the people who book the fares can't explain all the diferences between the fare structures... they still class it as "business" and "cattle".

General concensus amongst office folk and all relations/friends polled is that bmi have made a horlix of their economy structure with no-one quire sure of what they are geting for the money "down the back"....

Back in the good old days, we had to choices from Belfast, BA Super Shuttle (all one class) with a useful onward connection network via LHR; or BMI with business class for those who wanted or economy, which was generally filled with those who booked by price rather than favourite airline;) Personally, previously if I had onward travel, I booked BA for the advantages of through tiketing etc... no lugging hold baggage at LHR. Now, no option, as bmi don't have a worthwhile European/ long haul route structure.... So it is bmi to LHR, then onward with BA....

However, now BA has departed and no-one is quite sure what product bmi are trying to market, you can book easy or baby and at least you know you are getting low quality service at a low price. With bmi, it is not as claer cut, judging by the range of fares on offer...
Come on bmi, get a grip! (Or come back BA, pleeeeeeease)

Regards,

Shuttlebus

[Halfwayback]

DVT the A330 was one of four bought by bmi but was sold to Emirates. Sadly it is no longer in the bmi inventory! Many wish that it were!


Faulty
I think you will find it is a 767 that bmi are using from MAN to the Caribbean and Las Vegas whilst the A330 undergo maintenance and then it goes to LHR to start up the Jeddah and take over the Riyadh. It has been reconfigured to give greater amount of Business class seating which these two routes demand.

Shuttle
British Midland - as was - also had a single business class aircraft on all routes. The service known as Diamond Service was excellent and was in no small part responsible for BA (who at that time did not offer hot breakfast!) to withdraw from the DUB - LHR route and immediately upgrade their BFS - LHR service.

bmi does have an European network and is the second largest user of Heathrow out of all the airlines in the World! The long haul routes are growing - however they are not a global airline and I doubt if they aspire to be one.

HWB

[SELF SERVICE C/IN]

With reference to bmi and its NBM, service has definately taken a turn for the worse. For employees its been a nightmare with regular abuse regarding through check in policy and excess baggage charges. Staff moral is at an all time low!

[EastMids]

If what is said immediately above is generally true across the network, its very sad - it seems that long gone are the days when British Midland was renowned for its leading products and service. As a passenger know I won't get involved in debates with bmi staff about lack of through checkin etc - I'm all too aware of changes that have been implemented, and as a result this is the last year I will have a Diamond Club gold card as my travel goes elsewhere now. This disappoints me because, as a former nine-year inmate at the Hall, I did like to try to ensure bmi got as much as possible of the travel I do for my current employer.

[DTVAirport]

A few colleagues of mine have just flown MME-LHR and then back again, and they said the service was the best they've ever known.

[alterego]

The funny thing about BMI is that they always seem to have staff at morale an all time low, a stupid business model & general doom & gloom. They are still going despite years of these posts here.

Maybe SMB and his cronies aren't as stupid as we all think.

[Leodis]

Don't have any hope for BMI. Isn't it the pilots that are supposed to have their head in the clouds, not the management???

[bobmij]

I've looked in the business press for an unbiased analysis of this company but I can't find anything of interest. I fail to see how they have a sustainable business model for the future. Low cost from LHR is not an option due high cost base. The short haul model of yester year is gone thanks to easy et al. BA are hoovering up the business pax. Long haul to obscure destinations of little interest to the majority of the traveling public seem to be flavour of the month but would seem to offer little long term growth opportunity. As for transatlantic ops, if open skies were to occur, the major US and British carriers that already dominate the routes could extinguish bmi within a couple of months if they so desired with a little price war. Not to mention that their longhaul fleet size is a pitiful 3 330's with no likely prospect of an increase in the short term. Just what does the future hold. I know that moral among the staff is at an all time low as they all wonder whats round the corner. I feel that consolidation with another carrier is the obvious way out (Virgin) but the politics at the top suggest that's unlikey. Anyone care to share their views on this unhappy state of affairs?:uhoh:

[GOAROUNDMAN]

Just read in last weeks Guardian and Man Evening News that now that the Vigins west coast line is recording times of 2 hours 15 mins between London and Manchester BMI hast lost 30 % of its pax on this route while BA has only lost 2%. I have also seen that Jet2 is going head to head on a lot of BMIbaby routes eg Cork and Paris. If I was working for BMI at MAN I would be looking of my shoulder!

[VHF FLYER]

They'll get hammered if they try to mix it with the big boys on LHR -USA routes - mad or naieve?

They have picked mainly the wrong long haul routes from MAN but they really could carve a useful niche with their Star Alliance pals.....
suggestions...
MAN to Los Angeles, Jo'burg/Capetown, Tokyo.

But hey what do I know? I'm just a humble passenger who might want to buy this kind of stuff.

[PTH needs tarmac]

GOAROUNDMAN

Jet2 don't currently operate to either Pais or Cork from MAN. Care to elaborate on that?

Most of the bmi LHR-UK routes have seen substantial reductions in loads in recent months, especially where BA operate a parallel service. The only routes (LBA and MME) to keep steady passenger volumes with the same months (eg Oct) in 2004 were those that received upgrades from F100's to new A319s, which offer about 25 more seats. Combined with the new "tiny fares" and the reduced loads, I find it very difficult to see that yields will have improved.

[Val d'Isere]

I can't be fussed to spend long on this, but here's the result of a quick search.


2002 - The airline posted a pre-tax loss of £19.6m for 2002, compared with a £12.4m profit the previous year.


2003 - loss of £8.9m


2004 - In March, Sir Michael Bishop announces that the bmi has returned to profitability. Company records a pre-tax profit of £2.1 million


2005 - January. Lufthansa hopes to sell its holding in unlisted UK carrier bmi to escape a clause that could force it to buy a GBP£229 million (USD$431 million) stake, a British newspaper reported on Tuesday.

Nov. - Scandinavian airline SAS "may sell its stake in carrier bmi and pull out of its loss-making joint venture with bmi and Germany's Deutsche Lufthansa on European routes". According to the report, SAS chief executive Jorgen Lindegaard said the venture had cost the company 105 million pounds in losses between 2000 and September 2005. Further, it said, under the terms of the deal, which came into force in 2000, SAS and Lufthansa carry 45 percent of any losses, while bmi takes on 10 percent.


2006 - 5 January. BMI British Midland has denied it is in crisis after official figures revealed it has been losing thousands of passengers while rivals are taking advantage of the revolution that has seen millions more Britons taking to the air every year. After reporting passenger growth of more than 11% in 2004, bmi has refused to publish monthly statistics since last February.
At its much-vaunted budget subsidiary bmibaby, summer passenger numbers rose by just 3% against growth at direct rivals easyJet and FlyBe of 21% and 26% respectively. The decline at bmi comes as a range of younger airlines such as Jet2 and FlyGlobespan have more than doubled in size and stolen market share.


What really matters to the passenger, though, is the reliabilty, efficiency and value they're getting. IMHO, bmi have now lost on all counts.

[teifiboy]

mind you this is the same press that quoted a "source" as saying that bmi cabin crew would need to take a $30,000 pay cut if they refused to fly to Riyadh.

That said, there's no smoke...

Bmi have lost a huge amount of high yield traffic with the nbm, and bearing in mind that short haul out of LHR has never really been that profitable, the cost savings will have to be pretty substantial. It's difficult to see a return to profit without major investment in long haul but i am not sure the resources are there

[bobmij]

I suspect we shall see the true colours of the company when Lufty and SAS manage to extricate themselves from the equation!:ugh:

[VHF FLYER]

Bet they can't wait to get rid of the A321s.
These are only regulars I think on LHR - BHD but that route should be investigated for State Aid.
Why?
Because HUGE amounts of the C Class passengers and LOTS of the Y passengers on that route are civil servants going on useless diversity and social inclusion meetings in London, whose flights are funded by taxpayers.:}

[shuttlebus]

VHF,

Indeed you are correct, most bmi flights in (and out) of BHD these days are A321s (If they are taking off from 22, I can see & hear them from the office).

I can understand bmi wanting rid of them, as the 321s are probably some of the oldest aircraft in the fleet (guess), but any flights I have been on BHD-LHR-BHD have always been well filled (of course this wasn't always the case when BA were flying).

Seems that a fall-back to A320/319 will limit bmi's passenger load out of City as they probably won't want to give up any more slots at LHR to increase frequencies for the a.m. and p.m peaks.

Do any other UK city-pairs see full aircraft at peak times, even with a 321? I guess BA compete on most of the others so it is harder to estimate a true peak load?

BTW, the C-class cabin (which I have been known to use from time to time :-) never seems excessively big... most of the bus is Y. (And I am not a CS)

Regards,

Shuttlebus

[DTVAirport]

I love this airline I want them to be among the best but the crisis at bmi is increasing at a rate of knots!

They've already lost lot's of passengers and the ones they still have are continuously turning their backs on them. bmi's load factor for January was a pathetic 53% and it's all because of the service changes.

The only way to turn bmi around is for them to return to the old ways (how difficult would that be?) and even then it would take some damn good advertising to get their customers to return!

If bmi stay as they are now it won't be too long before they go and join Sabena in the great airport in the sky!

[WHBM]

This happens in any business environment. Companies come, companies go. Some get led onwards and upwards by dynamic personalities, some fall into the hands of the most amazing klutzes who do the most ridiculous things and lose all the heritage. It happens.

Now what example was I looking for. Ah yes, BMI.

[akerosid]

Yes, they certainly seem to be a candidate for the "New Coke" award for making a complete pig's ear of the company.

I can see that they've made mistakes; that can happen to any company, but what I find most amazing is that they seem to have lost any sense of vision or awareness of where they are and where they are going; MB doesn't seem to be involved any more and while they may be waiting for new long haul routes, the soonest day could be introduced from LHR is next November; can the current situation be allowed to continue for that long?

One can't help wondering how the current freefall is affecting company morale; the idea that the company's management seems very limp and unresponsive to the microburst into the which it has flown the company can't do much for confidence or security.

Is MB going to take action to resolve it? Is he still interested in and committed to the company? If so, why doesn't he get some decent management in and turn the company around; there is absolutely no excuse for a company with the kind of assets and advantages bmi has (LHR slots in particular) to be doing so incredibly badly.

[StarAllianceGold]

I don't think Sir Michael will be too concerned. If Open Skies happens he'll be able to auction off the LHR slots for a fortune. If not he supposedly has an option to sell to Lufthansa (at a value much higher than the current value of the company).

I think he just wants to keep it ticking along until he can cash out.

And bvgger the staff and customers in the meantime :(

[Bagso]

....certainly made a complete pigs ear of Manchester where they were doing so well on long haul then imploded...!

[fl dutchman]

Trying to book a BMI long haul flight by telephone is not exactly the easiest experience in the world, they dont seem to know what days certain flights opperate. From a first point of contact with potential customers that is very poor indeed.

[teifiboy]

to those on this thread who seem to think they have the answers, rather than criticise incessantly, answer the following:-

the old short haul model at Heathrow, although popular was losing money month on month and the situation was getting worse by the day. The low cost carriers with their low cost bases and who started with clean sheets of paper were having an enourmous effect not only on bmi but BA too. Something HAD to be done to cut costs - FACT.

The only way was to cut out the loss making aspects i.e. business products including hugely expensive airport lounges, catering contracts. Although regrettable, there was no option.

So, to those who bleat on about how bmi has lost direction and bring back business class etc, - what is the solution when operating out of such a high cost airport such as LHR?

[flyme69]

in reply to teifiboy, the answer is to get bums on seats by rewarding loyalty to your frequent flyers, offering a superior service and product to your competiter. If I had a choice now, between british midland's "diamond service", and BA's service on the same route, I'd choose midland without thinking of the price because of the amazing product it was. It seems the bmi is now getting ready to sell up!! after all, bish should have retired last year, and he's gota go sometime. looking at the figures as they are bish would have sacked Nigel long time ago, but he hasnt!! seems loke he's had enough!!! (now that he has a new toy boy!!):eek:

[ryanride]

So sad to see such a once great airline declining ! The management are the only ones to blame. In reply to flyme69 I think the answer is to get bums on seats by cutting costs and offering lower fares quickly. Most of BMI's loyal once loyal customers are now flying with low cost carriers such as Easyjet and Ryanair. These stats show an obvious decline in the companies profits:

plc figures (inc bmibaby)20002001200220032004
turnover
£739.2m£756.9m£723.8m£772m £830
passengers
7.1m6.7m7.5m9.4m 10.5
profit/(loss)
£8.2m£12.4m (£19.6m)(£9.8m) £2.1m
revenue passenger km (scheduled)
3836.8m4256m5303m6711m7246m

It will be interesting to see what will happen to this once great Airline ! !

[teifiboy]

flyme69

the point is that when bmi were offering this great service it was losing money at an alarming rate. It was totally unsustainable!!

Its a huge shame that the airline has gone this way but the alternative was not viable

[Leezyjet]

Bmi have been well and truly shafted by the 2 recent Chief Operating Officers. The last one started the ball rolling, then jumped ship for a life in the Middle East and the current one doesn't seem to have a clue.

Staff morale is at an all time low - it always has been low at Bmi, but now it is non-existant. Blanket overtime bans so long term staff are jumping ship in droves, (but this never bothered Bmi in the past so won't now either - when the managements only answer to staff problems is there is the door, if you leave there are plenty of people in Tesco's that will take your job !!) it's not easy to survive on a basic of approx £1100/month for ground staff in the London area without o/t. They need a good clear out of management too. Some of the managers there are up to no good from the word on the street.

Midland had so much going for it, but in the last 5 years have been in freefall mode. If they don't do something soon they will hit the ground hard.

Bmi have some great people working for them who have been very loyal to the company despite the companies poor treatment of them. It's these people I feel sorry for.

They need to do something quickly. For a start, they could get rid of the stupid rule that passengers MUST use a machine to check-in, and get the desks manned again. It is much quicker and efficient from what I've seen, it's more personal too which is what a lot of people actually want. They could hand out free soft drinks, and charge for alcohol. Get rid of those crap moveable seats and install 3 rows of proper Business class seats on all a/c, so they would have 12 proper C seats that would appeal to those who want them, and as supply would be low on each flight, they could keep prices fairly high for those who want to pay for it and at least those who do would have the choice on every route. Sort out the ff scheme and give a higher reward again and let silvers back into the lounge too.

They could carry on with their variable fares in econ, ditch the paid drinks in econ on L/haul as no other l/haul offers it, (except charters) so they wouldn't loose as many pax. Make more of an effort with excess baggage (don't know what they are like now, but they used to waive everything !!) and charge for e/exit on l/haul ala Virgin as people are actually prepared to pay it. Round trip fuel all short haul flights where poss (and where it is economical to do so) so only paying out for fuelling once per round trip.

Thats just for starters !!!.

SMB, if your reading, I'll come and sort your airline out :ok:

[teifiboy]

to be fair, the airline has been shafted by the low costs. Passengers are no longer paying the true cost of flying.

However, maybe some light at the end of the tunnel

Lufthansa mulls more acquisitions. Lufthansa is looking for more airlines to become bigger, said Chairman and CEO Wolfgang Mayrhuber. "We have to be able to make more acquisitions long term. Swiss, Eurowings and Air Dolomiti were just the beginning." European airlines, in his view, need to be a certain size in order to survive. He hinted that when a Lufthansa partner can no longer compete, the company stands ready." Source: Aviation Daily

[lexxity]

ditch the paid drinks in econ on L/haul as no other l/haul offers it, (except charters) so they wouldn't loose as many pax. Make more of an effort with excess baggage (don't know what they are like now, but they used to waive everything !!)

Aer Lingus, US Airways, United, AA all charge for drinks in economy, works for them as for make an effort with excess, have you flown with bmi since the NBM? Nobody gets away with anything now.

[teifiboy]

leezyjet

"Round trip fuel all short haul flights where poss (and where it is economical to do so) so only paying out for fuelling once per round trip."

Please explain how taking round trip fuel on short haul flights is a cost saving matter??? Do you know how much it costs to carry that excess fuel?

[flyme69]

It seems that the B-767 is going to kill the routes out of manchester!!! The a/c is tech in Barbados at the moment, resulting in the Las Vegas flights (751 and the 752) being cancelled today!! Can't believe they didn't learn their lesson after the B-757 killed the washington. :ugh:

[Little Blue]

"Tech" happens, whether its a 767, A330 or a bloody Cessna.
Your point, reference the cancelled flights, was?

[DTVAirport]

It seems that the B-767 is going to kill the routes out of Manchester!!! The a/c is tech in Barbados at the moment, resulting in the Las Vegas flights (751 and the 752) being cancelled today!! Can't believe they didn't learn their lesson after the B-757 killed the Washington. :ugh:
Like hell the 763ER will kill of the MAN routes! bmi refitted the interior as close as was possible to that of their A332's.

Although despite all the problems, from what I've heard here it seems the downfall will not last forever and things will get sorted sooner or later (probably later).

Edit:Maybe my mod colleague missed your use of a derogatory term and a name. That is a big no no. Do it again and I am afraid you will be deprived of your PPRuNe rights.

[HZ123]

As one or two threaders have said this outcome looks more and more likely. At BA CC recruitment we are inundated with applications and some BMI colleagues at LHR are depressed about the situation. Hopefully you will be bought out?

[flyme69]

Little blu my point regarding the 767 is that the reputation of longhaul on bmi from man is now worse than any charter airline!!! yes they may have put the bmi carpet and curtains in but most importantly, have you seen the seats in economy on that particular a/c???? well I have, the seatbacks only come up to your shoulders so you cant rest your head at all. There is NO seatback t.v.'s as advertised (evan though all passengers should have been told this!! they havent till they get onboard) Most of the overhead monitors don't work!! The business seats are similar to the old BA cradle seats (but a bit thinner) one business class pax had to be downgraded last week because she couldn't fit in the seat!!!
the cancellations have cost bmi tens of thousands of £££££ with hotels, re-booking pax on other airlines and I hear that crews have been paxed from las to ord then man and vise versa!! The monies running out of the pot!!!:hmm:

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

I thought Manchester only has the B767 for 12 weeks to cover maintenance and then it is off the Heathrow?
Not only are BMI having problems with leased aircraft as I have read a couple of horror stories re the Iberworld on lease to Etihad, and would be the case quite often when an aircraft is leased in by an airlines as the cabin fit not being to standard of normal fleet aircraft

G-I-B

[flyme69]

A lot of cabin crew for bmi arn't happy about this B767 either!! they were promiced 9 crew (like the A 330) but have been told now that they will only have 8 crew to give the same service!! There not happy!!!!!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Heads up folks.

Some of you are using terms that can be mis-construed and could lead to misunderstandings. Please be very sure that you do NOT step over the fine line of putting your foot in it. But more especially of putting PPRuNe's foot in it.

If you are not stating facts - don't make them up.

PPP

[flyingfrog]

A lot of cabin crew for bmi arn't happy about this B767 either!! they were promiced 9 crew (like the A 330) but have been told now that they will only have 8 crew to give the same service!! There not happy!!!!!

Isn't the capacity less on the 767 than on the A330?

Same service, reduced capacity = less crew required to perform the service.

Seems straight forward to me.

As has been previously mentioned, this is only a temporary measure until the 330's are back from Manilla. The 767 will then go down to LHR to operate the Saudi routes, where it is going to have 48 ish business seats + economy service, as that is where the revenue is coming from, apparently.

FF

[DTVAirport]

I know this has been mentioned a thousand times but bmi desperately need that fourth A332 which Emirates is, "looking after" for them.

[Skipness One Echo]

Thought it was just an Emirates machine they were getting ( A6-EAS ). Perhaps growth at Dubai has preompted a rethink.

[DTVAirport]

No, A6-EAS was originally ordered by bmi, but they had no need for it so it went to Emirates, bmi should have reclaimed it in summer 2005 but for some reason it's return has been delayed.

[Leezyjet]

leezyjet
"Round trip fuel all short haul flights where poss (and where it is economical to do so) so only paying out for fuelling once per round trip."
Please explain how taking round trip fuel on short haul flights is a cost saving matter??? Do you know how much it costs to carry that excess fuel?
Did you not notice the bit where it says (where it is economical to do so) ?.
Anyway round trip fuelling seems to work for the lo-co's on some routes - saves a potential delay and a charge for the fuel truck.
Wouldn't work on a long route like LHR-PMI for example, but on a short LHR-BRU/CDG hop then it could, although with the current LHR fuel situation, some carriers are round trip fuelling inbound to LHR.
:)

[flyme69]

I see that the Antigua was delayed almost 6hrs today!!! anyone know why???? This wet lease 767 isnt doing too well at the moment!!:(

[HZ123]

Sadly many wet lease a/c have history of being clapped out and often arrive with a history of problems and carried over defects. Leasor beware?

[The Moo]

I'm starting to take odds on when bmi will fold any guesses? Anyone fancy naming where many of the famous employees will end up ?

[Little Blue]

And which famous employees are they, Moo?
Maybe you'd like me to take bets on when you're going to be out of a job, too.
What a totally stupid and pointless post that was.
:8

[The Moo]

I jumped ship a little while ago but seem to be now working with loads of ex bmi pilots and crew and by famous i mean well know to bmi people you sarcastic person

[Little Blue]

Sarcastic? Where?
I read your post and wondered what on earth you hoped to gain by wishing to see your ex-colleagues out of a job.
Ok, you may not have liked some of them, but if you had been there for 10 years, you will have left friends behind.
As far as I'm concerned, although the company is having an identity crisis at the moment, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
I've been here for 18 years, have been thru many "Crisisis"(is that a word? Well it is now.) and expect to ride out this one. If not, then I'll have to come and join the throng at BA.
Were you LHR based? If so, then I will have sent u on your way to CP3 on a number of occasions.
Sarcastic? I can hardly spell the word

[sportzbar]

This is my first post so please don't flame me for my comments.

I too am disgusted with the way bmi is going. When will they find direction. I remember when the A330's first arrived and there was talk of 10 A330's coming to Manchester.

Now I know times are hard for all airlines but isn't it about time bmi really decided what airline they want to be?

I have travelled on many bmi services over the past couple of years in my job and can honestly say as a passenger I can see no difference i the service I get from Manchester to Belfast as i get from Manchester to LHR. But hang on! One is a loco and the other is a supposedly full service carrier! What is going on?

When I first became old enough to fly on my own a few years ago I flew several airlines and bmi (British Midland as it was then) was always my favorite. I'm not a pesimistic person, I really am an optomist (excuse the spelling!) I just don't think bmi will be around within 2 years. It will be a shame but that is the way things are going now. I think the only way to go is for Sir RB to come in and take them over. At least then there is a chance that the name will stay around.

[The Moo]

I have the utmost afection for my xemployees and I wish them all them best. I just think that BMI is on the way out ( I hope not ) I jumped ship because it was all there and backs , no more 4 day zrh cgn zrh fra ory standover cph etc etc. When i left all the n/s that were left were 5 sec dub 5 sec abz and that was just the rubbisih route the company was going down

[Little Blue]

Well the 5 sector DUB and ABZ are still there and will be for a lot longer.
Its all about L/Haul. Thats where It appears to be going.
If thats the case, then great ! The LH crew all seem reasonably happy with their lot, but I do hear your points about losing the n/stops, but anyone would think that was the only reason you came to work (...then again, it's that way with most of the other crew, so I don't blame you)
I feel philosophical about it.
If the worst happens and it does end up in the hands of another company, then what I can do about it? Life goes on.
I enjoy my job very much, and "most " of the people I work with, as u did.
I just hope the company finds its way again, and soon.
Good luck at BA.

[LGWcrew]

sportzbar is right, its time for Sir MB to hand the conpany over to Sir RB. This will give bmi an identity, so passengers know who they are and what they offer. The 2 airlines would complement each other. Virgin want the LHR Slots and would use the flights to feed its longhaul network. And bmi need those passengers if they want to stay operating as an airline.

[shamrock7seal]

that merger (bmi and Virgin) should have happened a long time ago - it would have been beneficial for both parties, however is it really a good thing NOW? Virgin probably don't want an airline where the culture is very different to their own, especially where staff morale has hit rock bottom. Virgin seem to like offshoots that are brand new. They learned that from the messy creation of Virgin Express

[Austin_Danger_Powers]

to be fair, the airline has been shafted by the low costs. Passengers are no longer paying the true cost of flying.
However, maybe some light at the end of the tunnel
Lufthansa mulls more acquisitions. Lufthansa is looking for more airlines to become bigger, said Chairman and CEO Wolfgang Mayrhuber. "We have to be able to make more acquisitions long term. Swiss, Eurowings and Air Dolomiti were just the beginning." European airlines, in his view, need to be a certain size in order to survive. He hinted that when a Lufthansa partner can no longer compete, the company stands ready." Source: Aviation Daily


but this is only half of the truth.
LH CEO also said, that i wont pay big money for a airline and that the airline (with ever) must be profitable.
Before LH overtakes BD, LH will overtake others...short haul routes of BD doesnt make sense for LH and the new Long Haul Routes either.
Only thing with would be interesting are the Slots at LHR and MAN, but after open skies, a price war will begin and LH also knows that.

Sorry, but BD seems to be totally uninteresting...

[LGWcrew]

well Sir MB is at retirement age now, so someones got to take over:)

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

LGW sorry that was a bit tongue in cheek

G-I-B

[teifiboy]

A lot of fact-less stuff on this thread

Any uninformed journalist reading this, ( and let's face it there are some out there) would conclude that the final nail had already been hammered in. Midland has been through crises before. And there seems to be a false impression that the man at the top doesn't have the stomach for the fight and should just roll over and let somebody else take over what he has worked for decades to build?

Also DTV, there are too many parties that don't want to see the airline "go under" and it's strategic position.

[PPRuNe Pop]

One more try guys or the thread gets closed. No if's no buts.

Stop guessing.

PPP

[DTVAirport]

Also DTV, there are too many parties that don't want to see the airline "go under" and it's strategic position.
I more than anyone don't want to see them go under.

[LGWcrew]

no one wants to see bmi "go under" we are just discusing what the future holds for this great airline. What the possibilites or a merger would bring. What ever the outcome is i think we can all be sure that bmi will continue. its just a debate of who is in the driving seat.

[DTVAirport]

The British airline industry wouldn't be the same without bmi

[cheekycapt]

Its time something is urgently done to rescue this great Airline !

[LGWcrew]

What can be done, thats the question. any ideas?

[LGS6753]

What can be done, LGW, is Strategy.

BMi is long haul and short haul.
It's Lo-Co and Premium
It's Heathrow Trunk and Provincial Feeder
It's Embraer and Boeing and Airbus
It's Baby and it's grown up.

The airline's been going for 40 years, so someone's doing something right.
But from my business perspective, you can only survive by deciding on your stratgy and sticking to it.
And at present I can't see a clear strategy (sorry).

[bmibabyfc]

hmm an interesting strategy LGS

lets get this straight bmibaby, bmi regional and bmi are all trading names under british midland so.....

bmi is longhaul and shorthaul using the airbus a/c. bmi offers its pax on the shorthaul market a variation of ticket classes depending on what (THEY, YOU - THE PAX WANT), you choose and you fly - simple as that!

bmibaby is a low cost airline and fly boeing a/c

bmi regional is a shorthaul airline that uses embraer a/c that offers business or economy classes.

Now read all in to it what you want but the load factor will improve im sure, im not saying i agree or disagree with the bmi model at the minute but from a pax point of view this couldnt be easier!

one big thing the bmi bosses got right though and no one can argue with that is BMIBABY!!!! maybe because baby is so succesfull they maybe tried and modelled baby on the bmi brand??? who knows!!

[Land After]

bmi is longhaul and shorthaul using the airbus a/c. bmi offers its pax on the shorthaul market a variation of ticket classes depending on what (THEY, YOU - THE PAX WANT), you choose and you fly - simple as
Well, I want the return of the business cabin and some decent food on MAN-LHR. Can I have that please?
I'd also like to be able to choose my seat when I use the self-serve or online check-in. Can I have that, please?
Now read all in to it what you want but the load factor will improve im sure,
Well, I admire your confidence. The load factors have been in freefall since the "modular" concept, whilst the competition seem to be happily soaking up all the business pax who were uneconomic for bmi.
Maybe you'll be lucky and fill the plane with low-fare punters. Somehow, I think not. Meanwhile, BA are getting my full fare business.

[shuttlebus]

Was there strategic reasoning for bmi keeping the business cabin on LHR-BHD where BA does not compete directly?

I seem to remember that it was one of the few routes that kept the cabin - have all the routes where BA compete now lacking business class?

Oh, and is/wasn't BA Shuttle all one class as well?

Regards,

Shuttlebus

[Victor Meldrew]

Land After - Seat selection is now available on the online check in.

[Hudson Bay]

Why when I try to book a ticket to Alicante from Manchester it takes me via Heathrow and costs £500?

I know bmibaby flys the route so why am I not offered the direct and cheaper option?

Someone tell Commercial!!!!

[Land After]

Land After - Seat selection is now available on the online check in.

Thanks, Victor.

I regret, that it will take a few more postive changes before I will be tempted back to try it. It does beg the question, like many of these bmi changes, why everything is so rushed, implemented without testing and corrected/fixed at a later date. For example, the Frequent Flyer part of the website has locked out all the members for nearly a month. Not the best way to treat your best cutomers......

[EI-CFC]

bmi is longhaul and shorthaul using the airbus a/c. bmi offers its pax on the shorthaul market a variation of ticket classes depending on what (THEY, YOU - THE PAX WANT), you choose and you fly - simple as that!

bmi is longhaul and shorthaul, using airbus or a clapped out 767 with different product offerings depending on which airport you happen to be departing from and what aircraft you end up on. Some SH have business, some don't. LH has paid for drinks in one market, it doesn't in another.

bmi offers it's pax on the SH market what they think pax want (10,000 mysterious PAX who included none of their frequent flyers it seems) and have then chopped and changed and flim flammed since the introduction of NBM that no one really seems to know what is going on - much less the passengers. "Tiny" fares which aren't always tiny. Some people have lounge access, some don't, which seems to change from week to week. OLCI and SSCI which treats low fare paying pax like dirt and assigns them ridiculous seats..The list goes on!

but from a pax point of view this couldnt be easier!

The mind boggles. Easier? This whole NBM will be a source someday for a business text book on how not to do things!

[chipsbrand]

I know bmi well and have worked for them in the past but I do not have any current association with them other than knowing people there. For at least the last 20 years it has been a difficult business to understand. For many years it made insignificant profits which was odd for a business that had a good reputation and was based at LHR. But the published losses have not been significant either. It has a stunningly valuable slot base and the sale or lease of these could keep the business at least alive for many years. Auctioned off those slots would be worth hundreds of millions of pounds. Virgin. Lufthansa and everyone else there would give their eye teeth to get some of them. So I do not really understand where all this talk of crisis comes from.

Its owners have done some clever deals over the years not the least of which was the development of British Regional and its sale to BA. This made large profits for Sir Michael and his associates and should provide the basis for adequate funding for bmi should they have and really serious problems at this time. Add the slots to that and there is a very healthy asset base.

I have never been able to work out why bmi joined Star Alliance and I think it is very interesting that it has been reported that both LH and SAS have written off their investment in bmi. Joining Star caused a lot of pain for them all.

The decision to go long haul has always baffled me. It is always expensive and a very easy way to lose cash quickly. It also absorbs endless management time when perhaps they might be better employed looking after the basics.

The fares offerings out of LHR are baffling. If there was ever an airport that could support undiscounted fares it was LHR but baby fares are almost constantly advertised by them for LHR flights now.

Their route decisions are also baffling. They went into PRG, WAW and AGP and then withdrew just as those routes started to boom. PRG and AGP have made the so-called low cost airlines.

I cannot work out the strategy of baby. It seems to be constant chopping and changing of everything.

The whole group INMO needs a strategy review guided by experts in brand management, airline operations and customer services. Incidentally I hear from within bmi that the lost baggage situation at LHR is still horrendous.

Finally if they want to be credible they should move the head office from sleepy hollow to somewhere that has a dynamic environment.

I am sure that it is not irrecoverable but really firm action seems to be needed. But I do not think it is a company facing imminent crisis.

[VHF FLYER]

Someone mentioned it above...
'Decide on your strategy and stick to it'

Passengers, especially regular and loyal ones (ie the ones you want..no?) need reliability and certainty.

The Long Haul business out of MAN is a case in point. Great product, great service and building a good solid reputation.The flip flopping that has gone on has served only to undermine the work previously done. Where do they fly to now? Does anyone really know?

They have jumped in to some opportunistic LH routes at LHR, 'mixing it with the big boys' and most of this is frankly, a laughing stock.
If BMi want to see how to run a successful LH route they need look no further than the MAN-ORD service run by AA for (god knows,,20 years?). Every regular punter knows there is a daily non stop same time every day, runs like clockwork and always has done - total reliability is what's needed. That's how you build a sustainable business with brand loyalty.

[SELF SERVICE C/IN]

Changing times in Bmi at BHD??

An early edition of Summer Timetable 2006 includes an EMB145 rotation (BD091) during dates in September and October. NOT a good sign for most
profitable bmi route!!

[ManAtTheBack]

bmi offers its pax on the shorthaul market a variation of ticket classes depending on what (THEY, YOU - THE PAX WANT), you choose and you fly - simple as that!

bmibabyfc
What I want is business class LHR to MAN.
I now choose and I now fly BA - simple as that!

[concorde001]

bmibabyfc
What I want is business class LHR to MAN.
I now choose and I now fly BA - simple as that!

BA don't offer business class on UK domestic flights. It's all single Y class and has been for many years now.

[Land After]

BA don't offer business class on UK domestic flights. It's all single Y class and has been for many years now.

Agreed, but they do have:

• Preferred seating for Frequent Flyers
• Online check in with reliable choice of seat (No choice on tiny fares)
• Self Serve Check-in with choice of seat
• Minimal airport queues (security aside)
• Free food (MAN-LHR)
• Free Drinks (MAN-LHR)
• Motivated staff

And, importantly, a business attitude. The difference between BA and bmi is like a comparison with a charter airline and scheduled airline. BA appreciate you need to move through the airport with a minimum of fuss, bmi is very much “pile ‘em high and sell ‘em cheap”. Any form of contact with bmi, pre or post flight is a battle. Miles redemptions are a joke.

Gone are the days of diamond service and staff that seemed happy in their jobs and were happy to serve, and I was very happy to fly with bmi over BA. Now it’s reversed.

Bmi should look at the launch of BA Connect to see how handle a change programme. Most importantly, other than the removal of catering and the club cabin, none of the frequent flyer benefits have been hit and I can see the loads holding up.

Meanwhile, more and more people are getting hacked off with the Ryanisation of bmi. Sure, there’s a market for them. I’m not convinced it’s out of LHR. That’s why baby is doing well in the right places and the mainline load factors keep falling. (And I’ll bet it’s the high revenue pax that are leaving, not the pax on the Tiny fares)

[ManAtTheBack]

BA don't offer business class on UK domestic flights. It's all single Y class and has been for many years now.

You are correct that BA do not offer business class LHR-MAN. However, as Land After has pointed out, they do offer inclusive food and drinks and more generally an air of customer service and some recognition that my custom is valued.

On bmi, one has to argue to be allowed to use human check in, even if one's ticket/status permits this.

This is why I, and I believe many others, have taken up the choice that bmibabyfc notes that bmi offer and have switched from bmi to BA. Perhaps that is why bmi's pax figures (Jan) load factors are down by 15% and load factors are hovering above 50%, whilst BAs figures are holding up.

[shuttlebus]

Changing times in Bmi at BHD??

An early edition of Summer Timetable 2006 includes an EMB145 rotation (BD091) during dates in September and October. NOT a good sign for most
profitable bmi route!!

Well, since bmi now offers no advantage for travellers "down the back" in comparison with easy etc and BHD is restricted by ops hours by the North Down lot, I would assume that peoples priorities have shifted from "less convenient but better service" to "same service but later flights"!

As a company we are now sending everyone easy, bmibaby or Flybe - bmi is only a last resort. Not because we are cheapskates, but our staff now prefer the later flights avialable to/from BFS as it makes a business day worthwhile and bmi offers no advantage cabin wise.

EMB is certainly a big reduction over a A319 (50 vs 124). I remember flying in mostly empty BA A319's before BA pulled the plug on BFS-LHR as it was "no longer economic".....

Regards,

Shuttlebus

[pilotatlast]

Heard all of BMI's 321's are going to Monarch in the next year???:confused:

[Count von Altibar]

Good news! The sooner this place is wound up/bought out/sold, the sooner we can all get on with our lives in a more stable environment with a new owner or in another carrier altogether!

[DW11]

Heard all of BMI's 321's are going to Monarch in the next year???:confused:

Not all, but at least one. Two will be gone to Turkey by summer.

[MyData]

I read this thread with dismay, but can identify with what some of the other PAX are saying.

I've been a very regular domestic and international PAX for years now. Originally BM were the bees knees. Joining the Star Alliance was a great move. Then, for business reason I got to fly very regularly with BA MAN<->LHR due to the schedule, but always reverted to what was by now BMI when taking other routes.

Recently though my perception of BMI has dropped considerably. BA is BA is BA. You know where you stand and what you are getting. I also understood where BMIBaby fitted in the scheme of things. But now the service is unrecognisable from a couple of years ago - am I flying with a LoCo or a Premium airline? What lounge access / loyalty will this ticket grant me? Can I use my FF card for access here or not (based on the combination of this ticket or class of service?) Do I get a drink / snack included or do I pay? Is there hot food available or not?

As stated previously - this might all be fine for those looking for the £19.99 return fares at 1000hrs or 1500hrs but for business PAX we want consistency and reliability and a level of service. Some might say that it is madness to pay 'premium' rates, but when you spend more time in airports and on flights in a couple of days than most PAX spend in a year you (and your business) want to have a reliable level of decent service.

And perception *is* reality. The previous post about what is BMI? (Loco / Premium, Boeing / Airbus / Embrear, Long Haul / Short Haul / Regional, Baby / Grown up etc.) is very very telling. Regardless of a later explanation the fact is that it is now confusing to exactly what BMI is and what it wants to be. As a loyal and regular PAX I am getting very tempted to switch to BA because I know what it is, what it does, where it happens and what I get. And in simple terms that makes my life easier.

[teifiboy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/03/09/cnbaa09.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2006/03/09/ixcitytop.html

Count Von Altibar.. situation may not be brilliant but please bit of thought before you post... people's jobs and livelyhood you are talking about

[eastern wiseguy]

BHD is restricted by ops hours

A fact WELL KNOWN by Bmi when they moved there......24 hours available up the road!

[acbus1]

The sooner this place is wound up/bought out/sold, the sooner we can all get on with our lives in a more stable environment with a new owner or in another carrier altogether!
If that's what you expect from a change of ownership, then stand by for a big shock!

And don't expect seniority to protect you. In fact, the expensive employees could be first for the chop.



As for teifiboy's link, what an appalling system, when Heathrow is strangled because one inefficient operator "owns" a big slice of the rights to use it! Time to wipe the slot allocation diary clean (and I include BA's interests) and start again.

[Anne.Nonymous]

what an appalling system, when Heathrow is strangled because one inefficient operator "owns" a big slice of the rights to use it!

Tut tut acbus - that's no way to talk about BA!

Anne:}

[potkettleblack]

Here are my recent experiences of BMI for what its worth:-

- hit and miss whether the self service check in machine pulls up your reservation even when you have the correct card that you paid with! So you go queue behind 10 people for the 1 man that has a terminal at the side in the check in area at LHR. Whatever you do don't attempt to try and get to the check in desk as that is only for people that are checking in bags....which brings me to...

- fast drop of bags? It doesn't exist with BMI. Go check what BA does for a clue as to how it is done!

- don't use the new facility of printing out boarding cards and expect to hand it to security at Dublin and go through with no hassle. I found out later that I should have read the fine print buried on the flybmi website to avail myself of that fact that this is not yet available at Dublin. Question has to be asked why did the little button show up when I checked in online to print my boarding card if I can't use it! Come on this is a basic IT solution and is pure amateurism.

- the self service check in rollout has been amaterish. A few months ago on a tiny fare you could select a seat. Now you can't. The message from BMI to the punter is you are 2nd class to us and should feel lucky flying with us. Wrong wrong wrong message to send out. Come on its basic 101 marketing folks.


Now what I would do if I was in charge of BMI

- offer through checking of bags on the premise that we have a limited range of long haul options for our pax so it is surely better to at least grab some point to point traffic and help punters on their way in the hope that they use us again on our domestic routes or on the few long haul routes we offer

- give people a coffee - it only costs 10p! Charge for booze and the like if you really want to as people will be prepared to pay for it.

- why treat economy pax as 2nd class citizens by preventing anyone with a tiny fare from selecting their seat. Why not do what BA does and allow BA card holders online check in a few days before the regular punter?

- write to all of your loyalty card holders admitting you got things wrong and entice them back whilst detailing how you are going to turn things around. Make them feel that they are valued.

[teifiboy]

Interesting suggestions.

I feel that if you are to compete with a more established, larger rival in any industry, you somehow have to gain the customers confidence, and the best way of doing this is to provide a product that is a little bit different, one that stands out. Otherwise you haven't got a chance.

When British Midland started competing head to head with its more illustious rival BA in the 80s and 90s out of Heathrow, it did so using a innovative product that stood out.

Unfortunately, bmi has been forced down a path that has taken away this uniqueness and the public perception of the product has taken a real bashing if the passenger figures are to be believed. Now it seems there is no reason not to fly with BA because bmi dont offer anything special, anything different.

In order to win back the confidence of the masses, an innovative approach is going to have to be found. Is it the New Business Model in the long run?

[SASfox]

Well said. I speak as an ex bmi crew member of 8 years and a bmi gold card holder now which BTW will be back to a basic blue in May due to the fact that i have given up with bmi. Infact yesterday i bought a BA ticket to GLA, the 1st time i have flown with BA on a route which they share with bmi. When i joined "British Midland" in 1996 they had just started calling themselves the Airline for Europe and at that time they were with new routes coming on line every timetable change...WAW, BUD, FCO, BCN etc. Then the name change to bmi and for me the death of a once great airline. I left in August 2004 but keep in touch with many people still flying from LHR. I couldn't beleive moral could get lower but it has. What would i change if i could, well bring back a business cabin on ALL flights. I remember the curtain had to be behind row 3 for business when i was there...why? At SAS we can have the curtain behind row 1 if business is that quiet thus we don't need to upgrade as many pax when Y is full. I remember we flew LHR-PMI-LHR last June a few weeks before business was scrapped at bmi. The flight was full and the curtain was behind row 8. So that was 40 business seats all full with fare paying pax. Angie in PMI told me that most of the business pax's on our flight were regulars. If wonder if they still fly bmi?
bmi do do a lot of things right. It's by far the easiest way to get a Star Alliance gold card at just 38,000 miles compared to 50,000 with most other partners. Their business class product on longhaul is fantastic. I flew first class with Lufthansa last month to India and bmi back. bmi was far better that LH, but hell they have made some mighty cock up's over the past 18 months. So come on Nigel bring back BUSINESS on all domestic and European flights. Maybe free tea/coffee and juice in Y and pay for the rest. Otherwise you could be loosing more than just your passengers!

[potkettleblack]

In order to win back the confidence of the masses, an innovative approach is going to have to be found. Is it the New Business Model in the long run?

Whatever solution they end up with I hope they find a niche much in the same way that Virgin Atlantic has. VA recognise that they will never be as big as BA and serve as many destinations. Instead they focus on delivering a quality product and doing what they do well. I think where BMI have gone wrong is that they have tried to do to many things and hence not delivered on them all. And now they are treading a slippery path of cost cutting etc which has lead to their problems and turning away custom. Unfortunately the solution may well entail more investment and therefore increased losses for a long term gain.

[bmibabyfc]

"Recently though my perception of BMI has dropped considerably. BA is BA is BA. You know where you stand and what you are getting. I also understood where BMIBaby fitted in the scheme of things. But now the service is unrecognisable from a couple of years ago - am I flying with a LoCo or a Premium airline? What lounge access / loyalty will this ticket grant me? Can I use my FF card for access here or not (based on the combination of this ticket or class of service?) Do I get a drink / snack included or do I pay? Is there hot food available or not?"

fao my data,

if you fly bmi on business does your secretary book it??

if so then i suggest you speak to your secretary as she is not informing you of what you are allowed with your ticket.

if you book the seat yourself then i suggest when you select the fare, you click where it says "more info about xxxxx fare" - this will tell you what you get, all of the above mentioned and MORE!! its not that hard, really it isnt.

now if you dont book online then it may well be confusing explaining everything over the phone, however, it has been proven most bookings are made online.

why people are confused is beyond me, yes bmi have changed, everyone on here is aware of that, but please dont complain when you say you dont know what you are getting because it is in black and white (actually colour) when you make your booking!

regards

bmibabyfc

[shuttlebus]

bmibabyfc

You have only reinforced the point of many of the posters above about why we are leaving bmi.

We shouldn't have to read multiple pages and click on extra buttons or get our secretaries to explain it all to work out what option of fare/loyalty card gets what level of service. With bmi this is the case.

With other airlines i.e.BA, you know what you get when you book, be it economy, business (club) or first.

No guessing, no working it out, just knowing.

One of the most basic management techniques is KISS

Keep It Simple Stupid

bmi have tried to be too clever and have sadly turned an excellent product into a shambles.

To quote another management mantra...

"It can take years to build a reputation, but only seconds to destroy it."

Why would I return to bmi as a "loyal customer" when my new preferred airline doesn't do anything wrong. bmi would now have to offer something special to entice many ex-passengers back from airlines that are "doing it right". And if you do change, what is the guarantee that everything will stay "new and improved". The management team have already proved once that they can take a succesful business model and chop it up.

Regards,

Shuttlebus

[Land After]

shuttlebus hits the nail on the head.

That seems typical of the new business model of bmi – “you get what you pay for and it’s your fault if you didn’t read the small print”. It’s the arrogance of a management that’s disconnected from the customers and customer facing staff. It’s why people are walking away from bmi – the pax numbers and load factors don’t lie.

Maybe it’s time you actually listened to your customers: we don’t want to read the small print. We don’t want to check the fare type to see if we can get into the lounge with our loyalty cards (even though the policy seems to be in constant flux, and the lounge staff probably have a different set of information anyway). We don’t want to be stuffed into 26E, with no chance of a seat change, even if the aircraft is half full. We don’t want to queue for hours in a mismanaged check-in area for the two working Self Serve Machines behind your new loco customers, who fly once a year.

It’s time to wake up, smell the coffee and see what this attitude is doing to your customer base – while you still have one.

Unless, of course, the plan is to drop the old customer base! In which case, BA et al. will welcome your old, high fare, loyal, pax with open arms. I hope Mr & Mrs Loco bring you the revenue you need.

[Land After]

http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/brit_mid.htm

And no, not one of those posts is mine. It reinforces the strength of feeling out there. Is Nigel man enough to back down and say - "I got it wrong. Let's REALLY talk to the customer this time and see what kind of acceptable service we can offer that will keep the customers and deliver a profit"

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Trouble as I see it is that plenty of business pax actually are happy to fly easyJet or similar (well it might be their boss who is actually happy). Maybe a dozen times a week I operate a BFS to LTN/STN service where there is 140 on board with only 70 bags. The cabin is half full of suits and laptop cases.

I think they were there before BMI chose to reposition its product and I'm not sure they're going back but that must be the hope at Donnington.

The competition for business pax is cuthroat. Look at EZY, now offering internet checkin, automated check in kiosks, no cabin bag weight or piece limit, 30 min checkin close, a B2B section on the website for company use. The main webpage also gives you booking options on the car park, transfers, hotels, and exec-departure lounges. Plus the option to transfer your ticket to an earlier or later flight with minimal fuss and cost if your meeting overuns or finishes earlier.

Its not a badly thought out business package for the MODERN businesman who probably isn't getting his lovely secretary to make his booking for him from the outer office...

I'm sure BMI will sort it out and there are many more sickly airlines out there who would love to be in the position of BMI.

Cheers

WWW

[Land After]

WWW Well, this MODERN businessman books all of his own travel and frequently uses EZY, where cost and schedule is favourable. The whole EZY experience far exceeds that of bmi - one cabin, one fare class, one set of expectations.

Of course, I'd rather be taking myself, but a CATIII landing at AMS in a PA28 is a little beyond my capabilities....

[ManAtTheBack]

if you book the seat yourself then i suggest when you select the fare, you click where it says "more info about xxxxx fare" - this will tell you what you get, all of the above mentioned and MORE!! its not that hard, really it isnt.
bmibabyfc

bmibabyfc
When a passenger achieves a certain status he/she expects to receive the promised benefits. bmi marketed the fact that silver and gold cardholders could use lounges on any fare, then withdrew this on certain fares. Gold card holders were told that they could use the lounge on any fare, then that they could not, then that they can. Silver card holders were told that they can use the lounge on tiny fares but no miles, the lounge would be withdrawn on tiny fares and miles are back.

Just because I book something now does not mean bmi will not have changed it by the time I fly. As to "its not that hard, really it isnt", why do bmi staff not understand the rules then?

Your condecending attitude to bmi's (former?) customers reflects what is wrong with bmi at the moment.

The website does show incorrect information, but bmi refuse to correct it.

Even the staff do not understand the rules

[Doors to Automatic]

BMI has really lost the plot with all their different business models, operation types and service levels across the network. I doubt if many of the employees have a full appreciation of what is available to where let alone the travelling public!

There doesn't seem to be any sort of cohesive strategy and no-one seems to be able to make a definative decision about anything which is why every few months there is some sort of half-baked product re-hash (witness the removal of business class on some routes but keeping it on four!!!!) and the airline doesn't seem to know whether it is scheduled or charter, full service or low-cost, long-haul or short-haul or regional!!!

And the strapline "Heathrow's most punctual british airline (in Q2 2005)" is top class!!!! That must have taken real genius to think up!!

It's going to take a miracle to save them at this stage. They seem to have well and truly missed the boat.

[DTVAirport]

Well, I think bmi's crisis and problems have now been proved rather conclusively, therefore I suggest we move onto whether or not you would like to see them go under.

Personally, despite only flying with them once (and even then I was too young to remember) bmi has a lot of "sentimental" value to me, so I want them to overcome their troubles and stay.

[potkettleblack]

Its also healthy for the market and us punters to have some competition for the carriers out of the major airports otherwise prices would slowly but surely creep up over time. So nobody should want to see the demise of BMI.

[Doors to Automatic]

Agreed - but if they carry on blundering their way from crisis to crisis I'm not optimistic.

[ManAtTheBack]

Well, I think bmi's crisis and problems have now been proved rather conclusively, therefore I suggest we move onto whether or not you would like to see them go under.

I would be very sad to see them go. Pre new business model their (domestic)product was superior to BA, particularly staffwise. I also hope that there will be somebody around to keep BA providing a level of service. Otherwise I fear a rush to the bottom of the quality ladder on domestic flights.

[Get me some traffic]

I needed to travel MME - LHR - MME at short notice. Bmi web site booking "under maintenance!!" Rang bookings and got overseas (Mumbai?) call centre. 1040 MME LHR BD333 OK no problem. When I asked for BD338 1615 LHR MME I was asked why do I want to travel back the same day?!!! I was then informed that the only way I could travel LHR - MME was BAW LHR - ABZ and then Eastern ABZ - MME. After some persuasion the girl agreed to check availability on BD 338 and discovered that there was a flight LHR - MME!!! That was Bmi's own call centre!
I despair.

[VHF FLYER]

ah..that reminds me..a couple of years ago, I was trying to book Manch to Washington and having used the sadly demised BMi route before, asked for it again.
The reply that came back from the agent offered me a routing MAN-LHR-IAD with United Airlines. When I replied saying that I wanted the BMi route they insisted that that's what I was travelling on - BMi to LHR with a code share from LHR to IAD.
They actually didn't know that they flew non stop!!!!!
God help 'em if it takes a customer to tell them their job.

[keepitlit]

A lot of valid points on this thread are shared with a lot of the employees,(or as management recently called us "Pre Madonna’s").
We were told about the changes and could predict what the outcome was going to be, well its not rocket science.
A while ago a most would have jumped to the companies defence, although it was probably through a sense of pride or belonging to a respected company, doesnt seem to be the case now!
I have no comment apart from I still enjoy the flying and it suits me for now.
It will change that I have no doubt ,for better or worse! We’ll have to wait and see!
Sure some will leave if it doesn’t suit, nobody is under any false illusions about a take over with a fabulous outcome, just if you’ve waited this long you might as well go the distance to see results. Personally for me I take the attitude ”if it isn’t broken don’t fix it!”

Life’s one big gamble based lightly on calculated risk
Sometimes you back the wrong horse, that’s life.

I’ll finish with “ A Good general always plans his retreat”.

Rgds

K.I.L.

[MyData]

bmibabyfc

FYI - I book travel myself, I do this online, I do this for BMI, BA, Easy, Lufthansa, Air France. In all cases, except one, I know what I'm getting 99% of the time. As my post stated: BA is BA is BA. You know what you are going to get. Oh, and by the way, I work, and have worked previously, for very large (50,000+ employees) global companies. We don't have the luxury of secretaries these days - I do the booking in my personal time.

I do not have the time nor the inclination to read the small print or click on 'further info' links. What about the earlier poster who said that he printed his boarding card only to find that it wasn't valid at Dublin? These are the kind of stories that do the rounds so there isn't any point reading the small print when I've got a massive list of other more important work related documents to read.

And to quote my final line "And in simple terms that makes my life easier". That is THE POINT - I don't want to have to mess around and waste time. I want what is easiest for me - not you or the airline. Cost becomes a secondary issue. Time and lack of stress are the most important factors.

Shuttlebus and Land After - thank you for your well worded reposts.

Oh, and I forgot to say. I'm typing this from Toulouse. I flew MAN->TLS this morning. Last night I attempted to check in on-line ready for this morning's flight just in case I was delayed getting to the airport due to the snow. Ticket located on the BMI web site. Proceed to on-line check-in. Doh! The ticket I have doesn't allow on-line check-in... Why? I don't know, perhaps it is written in the small print. But surely it is BETTER for all concerned to allow me to check in on-line??? Go figure!!! So I checked in in person today, and I had to ask for lounge access at MAN: the check in chap then had to get clarification as to whether I could have access or not - and I did get it based on my FF card, but I shouldn't have to ask (especially as my card details were already with the booking).

And remember - this is from a loyal customer who really wants to stay with BMI, and absolutely 100% do not want to see them go under.

[WOWBOY]

I hate the idea of booking Bmi flights on bmibaby as it is confusing for many and i feel that it should end!
Is there any plans to just being able to book :
Bmibabyflights on bmibaby
and
Bmi flights on flybmi
That is so much more easier, just sell lower fares on flybmi

[teifiboy]

Well, I think bmi's crisis and problems have now been proved rather conclusively, therefore I suggest we move onto whether or not you would like to see them go under.

What????

This is not a board game we are playing here. You obviously don't work in the industry. We are talking about people's careers, pensions etc

[Little Blue]

....Hmmmmm....
I think we can forget the pension....

[Tisme]

....Hmmmmm....
I think we can forget the pension....

Well lets not hold out much hope but its just all too confusing for some of us.

[munster]

as for the pension, there are to be a series of roadshows next week with reference to the pension. however i feel that bmi have no sense of direction at all. and that the sooner someone intersted/competent buys it the better.

[curley]

DTVAirport - to discuss the fate of the airline is to discuss the fate of the employees.

[karnak]

very interesting to see such concern about the fate of a well thought of airline and it's employees!!! whilst most bits posted are quite interesting to read can't help think it appears there is emjoyment at raising anxieties and putting the moker on what is potentially profitable model good for the industry and pax. Yes it may need jiggling a little and there may be a need to look at a better corporate image etc......and focus on promoting the standards that are integral to the history of the company etc etc etc....but remember the 'quality circles' of the 1980's anyone at 'The Hall' perhaps a revamped version would instill more loyalty and lead to profitability - it worked before it would be a shame to see the Ryan model creep in too far!

[ManAtTheBack]

can't help think it appears there is emjoyment at raising anxieties and putting the moker on what is potentially profitable model good for the industry and pax.

There is no enjoyment on my part to see an erstwhile great company apparently in decline. I hope bmi do suceed. I am merely trying to explain why I (and I believe many other former customers) have switched from bmi to (in my case) BA.

[acbus1]

That some bmi employees are willing to "forget the pension" demonstrates the increasingly prevalent appalling deficiency in intelligence, backbone and integrity amongst the workforce, which will surely doom the company and them to the scrap heap unless they are suppressed.

Don't "forget the pension". It is part of your terms of employment. You've already invested hugely in it. It is a perfectly feasible benefit, given proper management. It's the lazy, incompetent management of the scheme that's the cause of the problem!

If you roll over like whimps and play dead, the management will chuckle to themselves at how easy it was, grab the cash and leave you to your miserable, self inflicted fate.

So stand up for yourselves! It's surprisingly easy and very satisfying when you do!



"Forget the pension"........that is truly pathetic! :*

[Yak97]

I see that the CAA have turned down BMI's request to wet-lease a Qatar registered A330.

Where does this leave them??

[DTVAirport]

I see that the CAA have turned down BMI's request to wet-lease a Qatar registered A330.
Where does this leave them??
Interesting! I doubt that'll stop them trying to launch the LHR - Doha route though!

[teifiboy]

-Sir Michael Bishop no longer seems involved with the airline and there is (circumstantial) evidence to suggest he wants out.


Not meaning to have a go, but you are naming names and in which case you have to be sure of your facts. There is absolutely no basis for the above quote.


If you roll over like whimps and play dead, the management will chuckle to themselves at how easy it was, grab the cash and leave you to your miserable, self inflicted fate.

I think you will find that most employees will not be rolling over. The pension situation is a huge concern to management/pilots alike. You are forgetting that the management who you say will be chuckling to themselves are members of the same pension scheme as the rest of us!!

[keepitlit]

if we get passed the 6th april its the managements problem,hence the push to pass it on the first,lets take the same time as the management have for the 2006 payrise

Rgds

K.I.L.

[flyingfrog]

Interesting! I doubt that'll stop them trying to launch the LHR - Doha route though!

From what I gather bmi's application was turned down due to objections made to the British government from BA.

When will this unfair protection stop?

What are BA so scared of, surely one LH route from an airline in decline is no threat to them!!!

Onto the new model topic, I don't understand the issues mentioned with not knowing whats included in a fare type, when booking a flight tonight I notice that you can click on the fare type link before you purchase the ticket and a new page opens telling you exactly what you get for that ticket compared to the 3 other fare types e.g. lounge access, FF points and name changes etc.

It isn't even pages and pages of text, it's a nice and easy to understand table.

Doesn't seem that confusing to me, perhaps it's a sign of the times that we are all becoming lazy and expect things to be there for us without having to look or make any effort.

What did we all do before computers and mobiles!!!

[Flightrider]

Flying Frog, this is not unfair protection (well, not in my view). Bmi had cooked up a deal with Qatar Airways which was unprecedented and basically saw bmi whoring traffic rights available to UK carriers around for cash.

A short precis of the deal:

Qatar Airways wanted to grow at LHR but couldn't get slots.

QR was also using the full quota of flights available under the UK/Qatar bilateral for Qatari carriers

bmi tottered along and offered to sell Qatar a set of Heathrow slots and provide some of the UK quota of flights to enable QR to launch the extra service

To do so, it required permission from the UK government to wet-lease the QR A330

UK government decided (whether after representations from BA or not) that it did not like the idea of rights that it had negotiated for UK carriers being handed over for cash to foreign carriers. After all, if everyone did this, there would be no point in having air services agreements.

Fair play. It was an idea which was pushing the boundaries, and bmi have had a governmental whack on the nose for their troubles. The only thing which should come as a surprise to no-one is that the idea was formulated by the chaps at Qatar rather than the dullards of Donington Hall.

bmi is a business with no direction, hugely overstaffed HQ, a CEO who allegedly seems to be spending more of his time cruising crew rooms than running the company and a set of uninspired, uninspiring management. It cannot carry on like this. The schoolboy discussions and idle speculation about wanting to see bmi disappear have no place on a mature discussion forum, but it is fair to say that they desperately need to do something - and fast - to stop the rot.

[Curious Pax]

Whilst accepting that Aircraft Illustrated probably isn't high on everyone's reading list on here, the piece on bmi centred around an interview with Nigel Turner in the April edition is instructive. Everything is going well according to him, though if the spin on the MAN longhaul operation is anything to go by then the rest can also be taken with a large pinch of salt. All the longhaul routes that have started are mentioned, but for some reason the fact that Toronto stopped, Washington got messed around and stopped, and the replacing of the 330 with a leased 767 on some of the Caribbean routes fails to get a mention!

[acbus1]

You are forgetting that the management who you say will be chuckling to themselves are members of the same pension scheme as the rest of us!!
Not forgetting at all!

You are forgetting that the playing field is not level, it's their ball, they hold the goalposts and employ the referee! :rolleyes:

[lexxity]

Don't forget CP that the Toronto route was only ever for one season, that route, at least, was never meant to be permanent.

[Curious Pax]

Indeed Lexxi, but you would think the flights were still operating to read the article! Turner made another remark you could take more than one way: 'all other things being equal the Manchester operation will continue even if bmi is allowed to fly to the US from Heathrow'. That covers most possibilities!

[Doors to Automatic]

bmi is a business with no direction, hugely overstaffed HQ, a CEO who allegedly seems to be spending more of his time cruising crew rooms than running the company and a set of uninspired, uninspiring management. It cannot carry on like this. The schoolboy discussions and idle speculation about wanting to see bmi disappear have no place on a mature discussion forum, but it is fair to say that they desperately need to do something - and fast - to stop the rot.


I've heard the rumour about the CEO and alleged crew room "cruising" from two different sources now! EEEWWWW!:eek:

[The Moo]

Ok so almost everyone agrees where the company is going but what does it have to do to turn it around ????

p.s I'm not nigel turner

[Doors to Automatic]

Well first it needs some kind of strategy. Someone needs to say where they want to be in say 3 or 5 years from now. It also needs to decide what it's position in the market is and what its proposition to the travelling public should be.

My gut feel is that it should position itself as a value-for-money budget carrier (like Jetblue) rather than a no frills LCC like Ryanair.

I would then carry out a product and fleet rationalisation involving all business units to bring them under one roof.

A consistant product would be offered across the network with the only difference being a slightly better offering on LHR services. Effectively a back-to-basics strategy to go back to the days of Diamond Sservice which was responsible for making the airline the success that it was in the 1980s and 90s - but re-aligned to today's market requirements

LHR services would attract a fare premium. (To me it is ludicrous that it costs £20 to get to Paddington, £60 for a taxi to London and £30 to park your car but that you can fly to ABZ for as little as £20.) But would still be in a reasonable range.

I would have a premium cabin in each aircraft which can be expanded and contracted using a curtain but no difference in seating. Meal service would be enchanced and lounge access included and it would be offered to all pax on Full Y tickets as well as on any economy fare with a plus up of £50-70 per sector depending on length.

I would cut back on frequency at LHR serving trunk routes to 4-5 flights per day and use the spare slots to fly to places which are not served from LHR at present and do not enjoy good connectivity (e.g. Dundee, Maastrict, Bordeaux). These routes will enjoy higher yield than the 7th or 8th rotation on trunk routes plus good connecting potential.

The fleet would be rationalised to a mix of 70 seat turboprops (DH4), 110 seat ERJ190s, 140 seat A319s and 170 seat A320s giving a wide range of capacity that can be switched around the network as required.


How's that as a starter for 10?

[keepitlit]

quote "mix of 70 seat turboprops (DH4)"

I dont think the 400 would be a good bet,look at the problems JSY have had with them,the way to go is single fleet so just stick with the 19,20 maybe even an 18 but not TP's,the diamond ideas have already beeen forwarded to the management but no reply has been made,prob dont want to be seen to have made mistakes

rgds
K.I.L.

[DTVAirport]

I agree with you 100% Doors to Automatic, except for the bit about the fleet, apart from the leased aircraft (TF-FII, PH-MCV and soon PH-AHQ) the fleet is fine, perhaps some A350's to replace the A330's but sadly they cannot afford that.

[MarkD]

If VS did take over bmi long haul and sub in their 346s one would think those 332s with Trents would be good candidates for the RAF Airtanker 330Ks... if that ever happens (the 330ks I mean) :hmm:

[LGWcrew]

Looks like the Virgin/bmi takeover/merger is in full swing, Sir RB and Sir MB seen together on a bmi flight back from BRU after a meeting. both with big smiles. watch this space ............

[flyingfrog]

LGWcrew

Is it April 1st? I'm watching the space and got bored of waiting after 5 mins.

When is it happening?

Why BRU for discussions?


To add to the rumours of new LH routes previously on this thread, new routes to Japan and Brazil.

FF

[EastMids]

Looks like the Virgin/bmi takeover/merger is in full swing, Sir RB and Sir MB seen together on a bmi flight back from BRU after a meeting. both with big smiles. watch this space ............

And I bet Sir Bish and Sir Dicky didn't have to mess around standing in line for the SSCI machines, or get allocated middle seats right at the back of prole-class and then told they couldn't be changed, or get told they weren't allowed into the lounge because their cards no longer meant anything to the airline, or get told that the BOB butties were sold out, and not even get to buy a G&T because time for selling had run out! :eek: :eek:

A

[teamax]

East Mids, I am glad to see things are improving.

[lexxity]

Well if the latest round of merger rumours are true at least the staff would have a better idea of the company's direction.:hmm:

[Halfwayback]

East Mids
or get told that the BOB butties were sold out, and not even get to buy a G&T because time for selling had run out!


That is probably because the BRU - LHR flight has retained the full service element!

HWB :bored:

[EastMids]

That is probably because the BRU - LHR flight has retained the full service element!

Not for the poor sods who travel in steerage it hasn't.

A

[Flightrider]

February passenger stats make more unhappy reading for bmi - pax figures on Heathrow down 13% with some routes like Glasgow and Manchester looking even worse, despite little or no change in capacity versus last year.

First figure is last year's carryings, second figure is this year's figure and final figure is the percentage change.

ABERDEEN 16,010 14,700 -8%
ALICANTE 6,801 4,796 -29%
AMSTERDAM 45,108 45,055 0%
BELFAST CITY 53,022 52,822 0%
BRUSSELS 24,795 22,720 -8%
DUBLIN 47,657 45,310 -5%
DURHAM TV 13,293 9,152 -31%
EDINBURGH 54,147 44,760 -17%
GLASGOW 49,283 37,352 -24%
HANOVER 9,989 5,414 -46%
INVERNESS 3,631 3,148 -13%
LEEDS BRADFORD 13,352 12,697 -5%
LYON 2,561 #DIV/0!
MADRID 6,914 5,768 -17%
MANCHESTER 39,640 30,912 -22%
MILAN (LINATE) 5,299 3,250 -39%
MUMBAI 5,094 #DIV/0!
NAPLES 4,052 -100%
NICE 5,561 2,498 -55%
PALMA 3,769 4,636 23%
PARIS (CDG) 26,906 20,342 -24%
RIYADH 1,904 #DIV/0!
VENICE 5,557 4,869 -12%

[doo]

Went to Venice with my wife & kids for a few days, full outbound and almost full inbound, good crews & service reasonable price, wife & kids had traveled ryan and paid £4 for a coffee & pringles got coffee & sandwich for the same bmi, a lot of slagging for nothing here I often wonder reading the posts if there is not a 'dirty tricks' in the process.

[Tisme]

I personally think loads of it rubbish, but hey I am sure the management are reading some of the so called rumours.

[bmibabyfc]

good post inkjet, couldnt agree with you anymore!

bmibabyfc

[Get me some traffic]

Good post Inkjet. The only problem now is I've just paid £374.35 for an economy return MME/LHR/MME on the same day. Taking the p*** or what?

[WHBM]

to a large extent their previous high service level was an own goal, on short haul flights you don't need or want a meal (LHR-MAN/LBA/MME/CDG) so many business users would travel in the economy section having used their 'cards' to use the lounge and happy to take a free drink and nibbles and save a few hundred pounds.
Who says we don't want a meal ? There are many of us (as a quick straw poll round my office just showed) who get up at 05.00, leave home at 06.00 for LHR, which is as LATE as possible so no lounge time, onto the 07.30, half hour hold in the departure queue, get to EDI at 09.30, taxi to client where they are all waiting to start, rushed/no lunch, leave at last moment at 17.15 for the 18.30 departure so no lounge time, Bovingdon hold on the way home (of course), rush out through T1, home at 21.15 where they all ate long ago.

Tomorrow, the same to Brussels.

Yes, who says we don't want a meal in flight, the one chance in the day to do so ? We don't fly in business class because the client will not pay for it, but any (in reason) Y fare is OK, whether £50 or £250. We never see the fare paid, our travel dept does all that side of things. We do maybe 50, maybe 100 such sectors a year. We keep the trunk service carriers in business, not the £19.99 pax on the midday flights. We can choose our own airline. One has full hot meals and drinks both ways, one has a sandwich, one has an overpriced trolley which is often sold out.

Which airline do you think we choose ?

[IMHO]

as has been expressed here, and as a pax, bmi is suffering from an identity crisis at the mo. When you book EZY, BA, or even bmibaby you know what you get and expect. For me its all a bit confusing and a bit of a lottery at the moment.
Bmi made its name and reputaion as British Midland - ouzed quality - thats what you paid for and expected. Coupled with that was its Diamond service - pax enjoyed it and its staff liked delivering it. Its frequent flyer programme was also attractive.
For me its quite simply-
bring back British Midland - even add the International if you like - (can keep the impressive livery that way - which would cost £££'s to reverse) bmi sounds like a cheap American bank or illness to me!
Split cabins on all services, but market business class as Diamond business class- give them a brekky etc etc - whilst behind the curtain can get pax to pay for what they want - perhaps give them a free cuppa for there bother.(thereby retaining £££'s thats spent on the new service and gaining income)dont be fooled -There are business class pax out there!!
Finally bring back a rewarding freqflyer scheme - pax will want to return - and bring there custom back.
regards IMHO

[RevMan2]

bmi lost the plot for the following reasons

It's become a marketing-driven, reactive organisation that doesn't understand its own product, knows even less about what its customers want (or need) and hasn't a clue about where it's going.

And they really think that they're soooo sh1t hot that they won't listen to anyone with a modicum of common sense.
And how can they? - they discarded their knowledge/experience base post 9/11 and then again and again in recent years, they've confused and alienated their customer base and they treat their staff like trash.

Oh, and did I mention that their management is arrogant, to boot?

But we all know that, don't we.....

[The Moo]

I agree with all of the above, But I do feel sorry for what IMHO are the best staff working for any airline out there.

[INKJET]

Whoa Fella

I agree that a breakfast on a morning flight is most welcome and popular, the afternoon take up was always more mixed. The point is that many were happy to sit behind the curtain on the shorter flights and have a free G&T or 3!!.

4 years back the 737 service from Leeds would have the curtain at the back row just before they dropped business class it was 2 or 3 from the front the product was more or less the same (very good) and in real terms the prices hadn't changed, they lost a rotation, so something else had changed?

In part that was LoCo and a cost awareness in staff travel departments

So i can see why they (bmi) had to do something, that they got it wrong is probably the verdict and will probably need the rest of the Summer to believe it and come up with a plan to change yet again.

Viktor

[ORAC]

BMI passenger numbers collapse (http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/story/0,,1740452,00.html)

Leaked figures obtained by the Guardian show that the privately owned airline's flights from Heathrow carried 13% fewer people in February than they did a year ago. Its most intensive routes between London and Scotland suffered the most dramatic slump in popularity. Passenger numbers on its Glasgow flights dived by 24% to 37,352 and the number of travellers on its Edinburgh flights fell by 17% to 44,760.....the number of people on its flights from London to Paris fell by 24%, passengers on its Manchester flights were down 22% and its Brussels route suffered an 8% fall.... The statistics come hard on the heels of data from the Association of European Airlines, which reported that BMI's aircraft were only 53% full in January, among the lowest in Europe and comparing unfavourably with British Airways' loads of 72%, Virgin Atlantic's 71% and Air France's 77%.

[Val d'Isere]

The BA card advert in the middle of the linked article was a nice touch. :)

Applying common sense, I wonder how so many valuable Heathrow slots, transporting so few people, can be justified. I also wonder how Easyjet or Ryanair would fare with the same slot allocation. I think the answer is pretty obvious, though!

"Use it, or lose it" seems fair to me.

[virginblue]

I love journalism these days. Read a message board, lift a story and its numbers and call it a "leak"...

Anyway, been on BD115 mid-week with a 100 per cent load and stand-by passengers not making it on-board......

[Looooong haul]

Clearly a great piece of Rip and Paste.
Dear journalist when reading this: next time do your own homework or start paying Pprune ;)

[acbus1]

I love journalism these days. Read a message board, lift a story and its numbers and call it a "leak"...

.........BD115 mid-week with a 100 per cent load........

I love posters these days. Read a story, produce one figure and call it "universal".

[Doors to Automatic]

From the article:

BMI's chief executive, Nigel Turner, confirmed that passenger numbers were sharply down but insisted that the airline would produce encouraging results when it announces its annual profits next month. "We've taken a different strategy since I became chief executive," Mr Turner said. "We've specifically focused on getting smaller aircraft in. We've been concentrating on yield [price] and concentrating on business passengers. We've cut out a bunch of uneconomic fares. We were getting to be slightly busy fools."



How does cutting the product to nothing and eliminating business class square with "concentrating on yield and concentrating on business class passengers" ???!


Nice job Nigel :ok:

[virginblue]

I love posters these days. Read a story, produce one figure and call it "universal".

Did I ? You must have read a different post in which someone used the word "universal".

My anecdotal evidence was merely produced to demonstrate that it depends what you pick (hence the "..."). The Guardian has cherry-picked the routes that have poor results indeed. There are others, like LHR-AMS or LHR-BRU, that do reasonably well on average (BD115 is the evening LHR departure to AMS).

[The Real Slim Shady]

Radio 4 at midday today reckoned that the route figures were generally 13% down out of LHR. They, R4, attributed it to the change in cabin service.

[bmibaby.com]

I see very little reason in how a merger between Virgin Atlantic & bmi would actually benefit the consumer, as VS would most likely pull out of all non-LHR markets which bmi are the niche operator for or where they are the only competition, leaving just LHR, with most slots no doubt gradually converted to longhaul. bmi regional & bmibaby, whilst strong performers do not fit in with the virgin airline business model. Perhaps something you haven't considered, but is extremely important, is that there would be huge layoffs of longserving & hardworking staff.

It is far more probable that Lufthansa will step in to ensure that their moneys are being suitably spent. LH have managed an excellent turnaround of the far larger LX who they are completing their merger with, and have had recent experience with the no-frills sector having just purchased eurowings, which includes their no-frills subsidiary germanwings. I see it more likely they will want to protect their investment by bringing in measures that have been successful elsewhere.

Please bear in mind that we are not even twelve months since the new business model was launched, so it is taking passengers a while to adjust to the new product, and indeed bmi is slowly but surely ironing out the creases. Some might say it is too little too late, but under the dreadful decisions made by some of our management team, is a layer of professional staff who are doing a damn fine job considering the amount of stick they get, across all three bmi group airlines.

Whilst I am firmly of the notion that bmi needs to have a thorough shake-up to try to encourage people to fly with us again, this can only come about gradually, and in our roundabout way, things are being done.

[anna_list]

Last year, BMI released their financial results in early March, announcing a return to profitability.

Can anyone tell me when (or indeed if) BMI are due to release their financial results this year?

Should we start spinning conspiracy theories to explain why we haven't heard anything yet?

[Tisme]

There are going to be released shortly.

[EastMids]

Please bear in mind that we are not even twelve months since the new business model was launched, so it is taking passengers a while to adjust to the new product..

Many regular BMI passengers "adjusted to the new product" some time ago, or more accurately adjusted to the lounge/gates on the other side of the domestic pier in LHR T1! :rolleyes: :ouch:

A

[Doors to Automatic]

There are going to be released shortly.

Yes as soon as they have found something else to sell off to prop up the results - perhaps a slot pair or two now everything tangible has gone?

[acbus1]

I wonder if there's much incentive to prop up the results, Doors to Automatic.

Lufty and SAS cop most of the fallout! :rolleyes:


I can't help wondering, such is the bizzare degree of apparent incompetence, that there is another agenda. One almost hopes that this is the case, for the sake of the workforce (or, at least, the proportion that survive the outcome), otherwise it really is all over.

[cptkinz]

I just want to hear the general opinion on this matter.

I have been using bmi baby on average of 2-3 return flights per month.

I am getting sick of the price increases on this once "low-cost" airline.

They seem to be taking advantage of their popularity by increasing the prices quite considerably.

I fly from Cardiff which is the most convenient airport for me. A flight to Mallorca cost me £230 return just a few weeks ago, and £150 one way from Palma to Cardiff just last week.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this seems ridiculous when you can fly direct to Orlando Sandford from Cardiff for £275 return.


BMI baby - "the airline with tiny fares"

[airborne_artist]

I am getting sick of the price increases on this once "low-cost" airline.

Vote with your wallet - seems you won't be alone - BMI baby's load factor is shrinking.

You can't really blame BMI if you have paid their raised prices :confused:

[Doors to Automatic]

I can't help wondering, such is the bizzare degree of apparent incompetence, that there is another agenda.

Funnily enough I have been wondering just that over the last few weeks because surely no-one is this incompetent? That said I cannot for the life of me think what it might be!

[cptkinz]

That's the thing. I either suffer their prices or travel to bristol for easyjet, normally half the price of bmi. Then I have the added cost of petrol, bridge and parking. Never mind, hopefully an actual low-cos airline will grace Cardiff some day.

[brabazon]

Sorry but that's competition for you - you pays your money .......

Either way bmibaby is still cheaper than it would about 10 years ago before the likes of Ryanair and easyJet started the ball rolling and all you had was the choice of BA or BD on short haul or their foreign competitors.

[bmibaby.com]

I can only suggest you go back about a decade before the boom of low-cost airlines, when it was largely British Airways or two-bit regional carriers operating from the regions when flying on any kind of "service" was ridiculously expensive for the standards that you received. Whilst you may not always be able to get the lowest fares which are advertised, you are now able to get regular, scheduled, value-for-money service from your local airport. Also consider that there are people who are able to bag the cheapest fares, that is those who manage to book when the seats come out on sale, and even the last minute fares will be considerably cheaper than one proposed by a legacy airline, or the price of having to drive to an alternative airport. The wording "low cost airline" does not mean low fares, it means their operating costs are low, often with cheaper fares being offered to the customer as a result.

[Jinkster]

I always understood BMI Baby to be low fares rather than low cost...

[bmibaby.com]

What largely seems to have gone unnoticed is the fact that British Airways have actually followed a number of moves that bmi have rolled out since the new business model was unveiled last summer. BA, like BD, will now get passengers travelling on domestic flights to check-in online or via a self-service kiosk. They've also cut business class & free food on regional flights, as well as showcasing a more transparent fare structure. Whilst there are similarities, BA has done this in a much easier to understand way, with a certain degree of professionalism, which has been lacking from the bmi stategy. I do not agree with a number of bmi's management decisions, such as the issue over longhaul & some of the shorthaul serivces, but bmi is not alone in the bizarre decision makings.

[cptkinz]

My opinion of a low cost airline is that the low cost is a benefit to the customers, not the airline.

Where does the slogan "the airline with tiny fares" come from then?

[Railgun]

even the last minute fares will be considerably cheaper than one proposed by a legacy airline.

Ever checked some of the "Legacy airlines" fairs at the last minute? Very often they are cheaper or a match for so called "low cost" airlines.

[cptkinz]

Exactly, Allbeit baby had great fare prices at one time, they have slowly crept up.

Perhaps this was the marketing plan all along?

[bmibabyfc]

i can assure you that bmibaby fares are low and TINY, we all know you need to book well in advance to get the best deals and believe me the cheap fares are cheap - i see them with my own eyes every day! i can only presume you are either booking too late or the flight that day is already booked to a high load - thus meaning you will be paying a high fare!

and i am very interested to read the point about bmibabys load factor shrinking - your having a laugh i presume???

Only 4 years old and over 14 million pax have flown with us since, i trust airborne_artist that you have some figures to back your quote up???

regards

bmibabyfc

[EGBKFLYER]

Some folks need to read the book on Low Cost again...

Low Cost is a business model - i.e. it sets out the way the organisation treats costs. One outcome is that more competitive prices can be offered to some travellers. It isn't an airline deciding to have lower fares for all...

[cptkinz]

because I've expressed my views, does that mean I won't get a job with you? LOL

[spanishflea]

Although BA have made the changes in their Regional programme, and not their mainline one. bmi have done the opposite...

[doo]

"Then I have the added cost of petrol, bridge and parking."

Low co is only low when you don't have to pay over the odds for the extras!

[Tisme]

i can assure you that bmibaby fares are low and TINY, we all know you need to book well in advance to get the best deals and believe me the cheap fares are cheap - i see them with my own eyes every day! i can only presume you are either booking too late or the flight that day is already booked to a high load - thus meaning you will be paying a high fare!



bmibabyfc, I agree with you 100% on the above point, I have had free of charge flights and flights costing 99p with bmibaby, I have never paid more than £60.00 in total for a round trip flight.

The earlier you book the cheaper it is, the later you book the higher the price, the same applies with easyjet

[bmibabyfc]

well im glad someone gets the drift tisme!!

cptkinz you are more than welcome to join the bmibaby revolution, im sure after a days work you will chnge your views, in fact i know! lol!

regards

bmibabyfc

[acbus1]

report spam, advertising messages, and problematic.....
Ve-e-e-e-e-ery tempting. :*

[bmibaby.com]

It's amazing acbus that you're quite willing for bmi to be slated by everyone, and yet when somebody comes up with valid reasons why aspects of their business plan (and ours at WW) works, you see it as advertising the company. Either you should allow both sides of the argument to be displayed, or the thread should be closed if not deleted.

[MyData]

Well, after some of the comments posted here (myself included), I'd just like to redress the balance a little. Today I checked in for the BD341 MAN->TLS at Manchester. The aircraft is the Embraer-145 with 1-2 seating. I usually take an A seat to have a little more space on my own.

I didn't make a note of the name check-in staff who served me, but she asked if I'd like to have an F seat if she could block out the D seat so that I would have more space to myself. Yes please if that is possible. She said that the flight was quite full, and that she couldn't guarantee anything, but would make a note and endeavour to fill PAX around me.

I'm writing this en-route and grateful for the additional space for my laptop and notebooks. Indeed I did manage to get two seats to myself and the M cabin is quite full.

OK, so it isn't the longest sector in the world, but it is nice to have the extra space and the real bonus was that all this was arranged without me having to ask. It was by the check-in lady being pro-active and asking if I would want a double seat on my own, recognising my frequent flyer status, and then following through on her promise. Now that is the level of service that we became accustomed to in the past and is sadly lacking today. Big thumbs up to the Manchester desk!

Now how would such service be offered by a self-service check-in terminal????

[charlie1234]

Hi I am interested in becoming a pilot, I have written to several airlines to see what they are looking for ... etc. I got a reply today from bmi, there was quite a lot of good info but then at the end it said that first officers would be staring work on A320/A321 aircraft and Fokker 100 aircraft. I though well this letter must be pretty old if they still are using the Fk 100's on it! How long ago was it since they retired them?

Cheers

[bmibabyfc]

hey mydata i totally agree.....

glad you recieved some good customer service on your recent man-tls flight, what the staff member did was very good - she helped you out because she could at no extra cost to the airline or you and more importantly because thats the way shes been brought up to represent BD i guess! Whatever airline you work for customer service should always be free - thats why it annoys me when i have to speak to a pax about a complaint like excess baggage and they say its bad customer service - well its not, its a term of your contract with the airline - nothing to do with the customer service problem!

yes i also agree about the self service machines - im not a big fan at all of them, i prefer to speak to a person and not play with a machine! - however, i believe there should be a few maybe for just hand luggage and strongly believe that not everyone should be forced to use them like some airlines enforce!

regards

bmibabyfc

[Sanjo]

and i am very interested to read the point about bmibabys load factor shrinking - your having a laugh i presume???

ok bmibabyfc
just a quick browse through CAA data tells me that on routes like
EDI, FAO, PRG, CDG, PMI from CWL
AMS from EMA
AGP, BHD from MAN
LGW from MME
the loads this winter have not been close to 70%... Now it will have to be tiny fares to try and fill those flights up!!! I don't mean to sound harsh, but is this enough to justify the low LF claim?
Sanjo

[eastern wiseguy]

BHD from MAN

BFS not bhd ....

[justtakethecup]

I am not a regular poster to this forum so bare with me. I flew bmi about a month ago from LHR to BHD return and have to say the best thing about the airline is the staff who work for it. I beleive bmi need to realise that flying to and from LHR their main competition is BA who provide a ( debatable) full service product. They are not in direct competition with the low cost carriers on flights to LHR. bmi need to start listening to their customers who want and deserve a decent product and adjust their onboard service accordingly. The new business module isn't working. Going to a free bar service again would be a good start and would cost nothing as surely bmi get the products free or at least at a reduced cost by advertising the products. If they wanted to still charge for food they could get away with it as people would have a drink in them and would be prepared to pay for it. Currently BA are putting bags of crisps on some flights domestically in the UK not exactly major competition for bmi is it?

[flyingfrog]

The new business module isn't working. Going to a free bar service again would be a good start and would cost nothing as surely bmi get the products free or at least at a reduced cost by advertising the products.

Just like ASDA, TESCO and the local newsagent etc... that don't pay for the products they sell, due to the food/drink producers giving their products away for free in return for advertising!!!

Made me smile though!!!:)

I can assure you bmi and all other airlines pay for the catering/products provided to the pax.

[justtakethecup]

Well, I did say at a reduced cost if not for free didn't I ?!!

[6chimes]

The airline has shafted its crew once to often so they didnt get the backing they needed to make it (NBM) work. The figures in the paper dont tell half of it. Look at the HAJ route, not even a quarter of the a/c has pax on it most flights. BRU and AMS as a post earlier suggests is doing ok. Not so, sorry, I have seen a huge decline in loads on both routes, mainly AMS.

As said earlier, there must be another agenda........Maybe its just to tidy the books up ready to sell.

6

[sevenforeseven]

I will not say too much as my last comments got me a 2 month ban on pprune, but what I can say is that the only thing BMI have got going for them is the superb staff.
I fly BMI quite often and the cabin attendants are superb (unlike BA) and the A/C are very very clean (compared to BA).
Not being a cabin engineer, the cabin appears to be well maintained ie, no rips or tears in the armrests or back of the seats in front of you (unlike BA).
I well and truly hope that the barrow boys that run BMI (oops another ban), just bear this in mind and sort out the marketing dept.

Enough said.
:)
(Dear Mr. Pprune hope this is not too offensive)
:)

[EI-CFC]

What largely seems to have gone unnoticed is the fact that British Airways have actually followed a number of moves that bmi have rolled out since the new business model was unveiled last summer.

Mmm, but see, the different there is that BA did it the right way. Note how smoothly it has been handled and implented in comparison to BD's continual blundering, flip flopping and direction changes.

[lexxity]

I think it will spell the end for LBA/MME/MAN-LHR

Hmmm, I think not, because those would become feeders. What it would spell the end of would be the majority of LH from MAN, I expect the ORD would stay though.

[Sausagehead]

I well and truly hope that the barrow boys that run BMI (oops another ban), just bear this in mind and sort out the marketing dept.
That comment alone deserves another ban.
If I were a barrow boy I would find that comment extremely offensive. :D

[sevenforeseven]

SAUSAGEHEAD you are.

[Flightrider]

If we can pull the topic back to the matter at hand?

The one thing which really surprises me about all of the current bmi situation is that Michael Bishop hasn't stepped back in to try to sort some of this out. Having built up the business from virtually nothing, he must have a tremendous pride in what he has achieved and I can only imagine it must be heart-breaking watching this. [He also has a significant investment along with Balmforth and Wolfe in the operation.] Is he actively involved in the airline or is he no longer part of it, perhaps through illness or something?

[6chimes]

The one thing which really surprises me about all of the current bmi situation is that Michael Bishop hasn't stepped back in to try to sort some of this out.

Could be that he is a bit busy playing with an opera group at the moment and that he is lost for a way forward.

He is still taking a tidy fortune from the business.

6

[brian_dromey]

ok bmibabyfc
.....the loads this winter have not been close to 70%... Now it will have to be tiny fares to try and fill those flights up!!! I don't mean to sound harsh, but is this enough to justify the low LF claim?
Sanjo

Load factor is not a useful measure of anything, other than how often the seat covers need to be changed! Yield is what matters. Take, for example, Jet Blue Vs Delta on certain routes. With the prices delta charge, their load factor is somewhere in the region of 120%!!! Madness. Market share is not important anymore, all airlines need to operate their routes with an economice justification...if they dont make money...dump em. If routes can not stand up on their own, precious resources are being wasted. Not only are they making a loss for the sake of prestige, but the company is being denied the profit from them as well!

[EI-CFC]

As to the future, one can only hope that the US/UK talks deliver the freedom for bmi to operate to the states by year end

I think trying to wedge themselves into the trans-atlantic market from Heathrow is only going to push bmi deeper into the proverbial - it's certainly not the panacea that they seem to think it will be. The big boys will squeeze them pretty hard, with little mercy. They might carve out a niche going to underserved markets, but even still - how many of them are left without some sort of air service from London?

[VHF FLYER]

I think trying to wedge themselves into the trans-atlantic market from Heathrow is only going to push bmi deeper into the proverbial - it's certainly not the panacea that they seem to think it will be. The big boys will squeeze them pretty hard, with little mercy. They might carve out a niche going to underserved markets, but even still - how many of them are left without some sort of air service from London?

Competely agree with that. Do they honestly think that BA/AA/UA will welcome them? They will use predatory pricing to squeeze them till they bleed. In any case they'd hardly be 'allowed' onto some routes by UA -Star Alliance partner.
US from LHR could be the end for them.

[acbus1]

The limited no of slots at LHR limit the competion, its that simple
And here's me thinking that bmi are always broadcasting how much they welcome competition.

I guess it's easy to pretend you welcome competition from behind the protection of Heathrow slots.

It could be argued that bmibaby has a history of running scared from the competition. No Heathrow slots in those cases, you see. Interesting, isn't it?

You'd think, after over twenty years, someone would have noticed how (arguably) false their "We welcome competition" claims appear to be. "We welcome competition, as long as it's only BA, on short haul routes, to/from Heathrow, protected by slot allocations" might be a more honest statement, perhaps?

Unfortunately for bmi, not only have BA at Heathrow developed a degree of backbone, the competition other than BA is attacking them via destinations beyond Heathrow and bmi don't appear to know what to do about it.

[keepitlit]

But as a star member they would be code sharing,wouldnt they,makes them on a whole a bit bigger than stated on previous posts,not such a small fry with star backing will it.there maybe alot put in to trying to go west bound,not much said about going east,oh we will just have to wait and see what the tieless have to say next week!!!!!!


Rgds

K.I.L.

[Cyrano]

In general I don't see any particularly encouraging signs from the transatlantic open skies talks at the moment - they were being tied to the liberalisation of the US airline-ownership-and-control restrictions, and a bit of a domestic political mutiny about loosening those has broken out in Washington (aided by the recent Dubai-buying-US-ports kerfuffle and the fact that this is a midterm election year in the US). So (although I would be happy to be proven wrong) I don't see any imminent liberalisation there.

Looking east rather than west, on a positive note, a amendment to the UK/Russia bilateral has just been agreed which gives BMI the right to operate up to 10 London-Moscow flights a week (source: ATI news yesterday).

Meanwhile I understand that the bmi annual results are due out in April - anyone have an exact date?


Brian_dromey:
With the prices delta charge, their load factor is somewhere in the region of 120%!!!
Do you mean their breakeven load factor, or are one out of every six DL passengers standing in the aisles throughout the flight? :ooh:
And - not to defend Delta in this case - companies sometimes choose to price below cost in the short term in the hope of driving a competitor away. (I would have to agree, though, that Delta is not in the strongest position to be doing so at present.)

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

With BMI sorting their Moscow problem I wonder what effect that will have on Cathay to Manchester?

G-I-B

[ajamieson]

Meanwhile I understand that the bmi annual results are due out in April - anyone have an exact date?
Tuesday - should be interesting stuff. Incidentally, SMB will also be at results presentation, not just Mr Turner.

[airhumberside]

Looking east rather than west, on a positive note, a amendment to the UK/Russia bilateral has just been agreed which gives BMI the right to operate up to 10 London-Moscow flights a week (source: ATI news yesterday).
Would bmi be looking to serve SVO or DME?

[Maddog Red]

British Midland Moscow Route Licence Confirmed by DETR

release date: 15/04/1999

The Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, has confirmed the decision of the CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) that the licence for the second UK carrier to operate services between Heathrow and Moscow should be granted to British Midland.

British Midland has consistently argued that its proposed services, together with its network of connecting UK and European routes at Heathrow represents the best overall option to travellers.

Sir Michael Bishop, chairman, said:

“Obviously we are delighted that the Secretary of State has upheld the decision announced by the CAA last December.

“We plan to introduce services as soon as possible but must await confirmation of our designation from the the Russian Federation authorities.

“This extremely important ruling is something of a watershed as it provides us with the ability and the headroom to compete with the established flag carriers on another important European route.

“We look forward to adding Moscow to our growing number of central and east European destinations where we have been able to bring the benefits of much-needed competition to travellers."

British Midland launched services to Prague from Heathrow in October 1995 and to Warsaw from Heathrow in July last year. This summer the airline will provide a double daily service to Warsaw as well as adding a new daily return service from Heathrow to Budapest.

ALL BACK IN 1999, NEVER STARTED, No idea why thay want to now, they don't have an direction. They just throw and hope it lands in the Bulls eye.

[Flightrider]

Given that the bmi representative at the last DfT meeting couldn't even pronounce the name of either of the main Moscow airports used for international flights, it didn't seem to be high on their agenda. After pushing for this back in 2001/2, I suspect this week's award will have come as a nasty shock to them. They might have to sit down and work out how to do something about it.

You could get through a lot of buy-on-board sandwiches on a sector as long as Moscow though.

[Count von Altibar]

They're going to have to have a good business class product on the route otherwise it will fail against BA and aeroflot

[teifiboy]

more bmi bashing from the press here.. getting a bit tiresome now

http://www.thebusinessonline.com/Stories.aspx?Alliance%20keeps%20BMI%20flying%20high&StoryID=3A30FF4D-E355-4FD0-B234-9CC40A4D4250&SectionID=8099C021-87B0-48CA-A5F1-6335FDE21694

[EI-CFC]

They're going to have to have a good business class product on the route otherwise it will fail against BA and aeroflot

Perhaps they'll save themselves the trouble, and make another one-class route ;)

[acbus1]

From teifiboy's link....
Bishop may have one last card up his sleeve, however: he owns a put option which would allow him to force Lufthansa to buy his 50% plus one share stake in BMI for E330m.

That option would ensure that MB would watch from the sidelines as bmi was hung, drawn and quartered.

One wonders if he cares.

Even more unbelievable, though, is that the employees of bmi seem to be completely unconcerned. Maybe they're just too stupid. :rolleyes:

[RevMan2]

more bmi bashing from the press here.. getting a bit tiresome now
http://www.thebusinessonline.com/Stories.aspx?Alliance%20keeps%20BMI%20flying%20high&StoryID=3A30FF4D-E355-4FD0-B234-9CC40A4D4250&SectionID=8099C021-87B0-48CA-A5F1-6335FDE21694
bmi bashing? Plain facts and accurate, concise reporting, I'd say...

[Jinkster]

From the Moscow Times

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/04/03/048.html

Britain's BMI to Start Flights to Moscow as Demand Soars


BMI has been approved to fly to Moscow under a British-Russian accord.


BMI, Britain's No. 3 airline, has won Russian approval to start daily flights between Moscow and London to help meet surging demand for business and holiday travel between the two countries, the Transportation Ministry said Friday.

Civil aviation authorities from the two countries reached an accord late Thursday that allows BMI to begin daily flights in the second quarter and twice-daily flights in the third, said ministry spokesman Konstantin Rubakhin. In return, Aeroflot and Transaero, as well as British Airways, can add flights between Moscow and London. "This agreement reflects parity and growing passenger traffic," Rubakhin said by telephone, declining to provide growth figures.

Foreign carriers saw passenger volumes on their Russian routes surge 20 percent last year, according to government figures. Russian airlines carried 31.5 million passengers, up 3.9 percent on the year.

"We're delighted that after such a long time this has been accepted," BMI spokesman Phil Shepherd said from company headquarters in Derby, England. "BMI received a designation to fly to Russia five years ago; however, it wasn't recognized by the Russian authorities until now."

The two countries also approved new routes between Moscow and Birmingham and Liverpool, as well as between London and Krasnoyarsk and Kaliningrad, though which airlines will serve those routes has not been determined yet, Rubakhin said.

British Airways will add three weekly flights between London and Moscow, for a total of 18, as a result of Thursday's agreement, British Airways spokeswoman Maria Shlyakhtova said by telephone.

[WHBM]

If they go for a late evening departure from Heathrow and an 06.30 departure back from Moscow with one of their A321s they could do this without an additional aircraft.

[lexxity]

employees of bmi seem to be completely unconcerned. Maybe they're just too stupid.

Acbus1 that's below the belt. Get your facts right before posting such cr@p. This is being discussed on the private forum between the "stupid" employees.

[acbus1]

Get your facts right before posting such cr@p
How come your "facts" are any more correct?

My "maybe" (oops! it was only a "maybe".....did you notice that?!) was based upon far too many years of observation from within and the responses posted herein (or, more accurately, lack of responses posted herein).

What are your "facts" based upon? When have bmi employees ever (a) taken an intelligently focused interest in their fate and (b) stood up for themselves?

[Bumz_Rush]

Assuming they use DME..... Bumz

[lexxity]

Acbus1 when did you last work for bmi?
I can tell you exactly the last time my base stood up for themselves, but you wouldn't want facts to ruin your favourite hobby now would you? As I have already said, we are keeping it in the private forum so we don't have to listen to ill informed comments from people who enjoy bashing.

[jerrystinger]

Out of interest why does BA not offer an early morning departure from Moscow?

[WHBM]

Out of interest why does BA not offer an early morning departure from Moscow?
I'm guessing here.

1. Would rather use a morning arrival slot for something from further afield.
2. Rostering restrictions for European crew on a LHR-DME-LHR overnight roundtrip.
3. Difficulties in Moscow if crew overnighted (visa probs/poor hotels/expensive hotels/Russian bureaucracy to "aid" Aeroflot).
4. Overnight eastbound for an a.m. westbound would be low fare business only.
5. If crew AND aircraft overnighted in Moscow would need to leave Heathrow by say 16.00 which cuts down productive day for one of European fleet.

Others may know more.