Dragon Air

[Kickingpost]

Just curious...has anyone has heard what is going on in regards to interviews, or hiring? Are they planning any defo's? When might they be hiring and what kind of mins. are they looking for? Thanks in advance.

The post

[Plasma]

I have an interview for the 5th for the -400. A number of people I know do as well.

Anyone have any helpful hints and tips?

[flyer_spotter]

Come on Plasma...search for it!!:ugh:

[And Then]

Is the IFALPA hiring ban for the -400 still in place?

[Plasma]

I have all traditional CP/DR questions. This interview is different. It is a one day process, with a general interview in the am, a tech interview in the pm, and then a sim and cocktail party..1 Day.

I was curious if anyone had anymore detail..

[Plasma]

Is the IFALPA hiring ban for the -400 still in place?


YES, talks have broken off.

[And Then]

What are the talks about Plasma?

[Plasma]

talks between pilots association and DA re the --400 crewing

[Fly747]

Hi Guys, have the company spelt out the package they are offering you? Before you waste your time going to the interview it is only $5400 FO and $10000 US/month captain, no accommodation, travel, schooling etc. You will not be employed by Dragonair but by a company called Flight Crew Services (HK).
There is also an IFALPA hiring ban for these positions, you would be better off joining Dragonair mainline where you would be most welcome. I do not wish to dampen your career aspirations but this is really not a good deal which is why talks between the DPA and the company have broken off. There is now legal action pending and contract compliance continues.
Think very carefully, ask questions and make your own mind up!

[ROO-C26B]

Plasma,

My interview is on the 8th June, any advise? Do you have a type rating on the -400? Willing to share CP/DR questions?

[Plasma]

R00C26B
I am going for mine on the 7th, most of my mates are 8th and 9th.

As for questions, I am just reviewing the XYZ type of questions. Currently flying B743.

FLY747, We were all mailed the COS. They are in line with most other operators in the world. I applied for mainline DA, but this is there offer; My choice is to reject it (and NEVER be considered for Dragon again) or see where it takes me. That simple.

[Fly747]

Plasma, I hope you get what you want and that you do not become too disillusioned when you find yourself working with guys on a much better package than you. I hope you then take your shiny -400 rating elsewhere and get the pay you deserve. There can be no bond in HKG so there will be nothing to stop you leaving. Good luck.

[Howard Hughes]

Roo,
Check your PM's....:ok:

[And Then]

If you contravene an IFALPA Ban, are you a scab? If so, this could offset the advantage of running with a 747 endorsement.

Genuine and non-nasty question BTW. But all should give it some thought if it is the case.

[Plasma]

If you contravene an IFALPA Ban, are you a scab? If so, this could offset the advantage of running with a 747 endorsement.

Genuine and non-nasty question BTW. But all should give it some thought if it is the case.

and my answer to it is

A. I am not nor have I ever been a IFALPA Pilot
B. Its not my battle. If the Dragon pilots there dont like it, then they need to act themselves..Its not up to prospective new hires to fight there battle.
C. Guys were hired during the CX ban.. where are they now? Happily flying away at CX

[ROO-C26B]

HH, Thanks buddy much apprciated!


Plasma, Well answered.

It is not the new hire's battle rather then btwn KA's pilots and management. If I were successful I will certainly accept the offer of employment. I have noting to compare with, this will be a big step for me to progress my career to the top.

A few friends of mine got in CX during the ban and they are happily flying and experience no troubles or problems.

[Fly747]

This is a different situation to the CX case, you are not being offered a job in KA but with another company on far worse COS. It is intended that new FOs and DECs take promotion and advancement opportunities from KA pilots.
You will not be on the Dragonair seniority.
You will not be able to join the Pilots Association.
You will not happily fly for Dragonair in the future because that is not what you are joining.
You are not being asked to fight our battle, you are being asked to stay out of it.
There are many places where an IFALPA ban does matter and that could well affect your employment chances in the future.
Just make sure you know all the facts and consequences before you make your decision.

[Plasma]

This is a different situation to the CX case, you are not being offered a job in KA but with another company on far worse COS. It is intended that new FOs and DECs take promotion and advancement opportunities from KA pilots.
You will not be on the Dragonair seniority.
You will not be able to join the Pilots Association.
You will not happily fly for Dragonair in the future because that is not what you are joining.
You are not being asked to fight our battle, you are being asked to stay out of it.
There are many places where an IFALPA ban does matter and that could well affect your employment chances in the future.
Just make sure you know all the facts and consequences before you make your decision.

Who says.. Its up to KA if we chnage fleets ect... They have all the power. The so called pilot's association couldn't protect the guys the company fired last month. Why would they protect you.
I have no doubt KA is going to change all the positions over to the nez crewing company and reduce wages. You can stay or go, but unless you are unified - which CX couldn't pull off, and nor could you more recently- and ALL walk off the job, you are powerless.

Would I prefer the C.O.S that you lot have, absolutely. I wet myself over it. Is it available? NO;

Is I told Doris I could not accept an interview due to BAN, would I ever get one for mainline? NO

B747 is not an upgrade. Its an airplane.

[Fly747]

Plasma I am not against you I am for you. I am for you joining Dragonair and getting decent conditions, there are jobs and interviews ongoing for the Airbus. Tell Doris you want HKG base and not the commuting contract.
There is legal action pending which may affect you in the future.
The sacked guys got their jobs back, the DPA worked for them.
All I want is for you to get your facts right and not barge in blindly.

[ROO-C26B]

[B]B747[B],

Would you be kind enough to enlighten me with the actual facts of the disbpute along with the Pro's and Con's of takinbg up this posting with KA, I really want to know?

From you post it and all those in favour of the ban, it looks like the new comers (like myself and others) are most likely the victims of some one sided braw between thew pilots and the KA management.

It all comes down to it that everyone needed to make a living. If a job offer come along with better then the pay and benefits I am currently on, one will without hesitation take the offer. Do you all agree? Look at CX, SIA, HKE, BA etc new comers joined at a lower pay grade. CX from "A - C or D" pay grade. It is all economics folks!

[McDull]

Those being interviewed should be aware that the company has already told their pilots who are interested in the 744 that they are only recruiting for a USA base with a Hong Kong report. USA bases will not be available for some time. If you want to try and live in HK on US$54K or commute in your valueable but scarce spare time - good luck. Also don't underestimate the IALPA ban. When you have realised that the deal sucks and want to get out, a lot of companys won't touch you.

[Fly747]

ROO, the dispute is basically over the poor deal being offered to fly the -400 and seniority issues. For any current KA pilots to fly the -400 we have to take a pay cut and lose many benefits and allowances. It also means leaving Dragonair and joining FCS which is what you guys are being offered. We have rejected that but the company is trying to forge ahead with this attack on our COS. We want you to join on the same COS as us and fly the -400 when you are senior enough to bid for it. If you want to trample all over that Plasma then you will reap your just rewards with the attitude you appear to have. Make no mistake this is not an opening into Dragonair and you will not be able to transfer to the pax fleet. It is not the same as the reduced benefits at BA etc because our current COS still continue and Dragonair are still recruiting. You are NOT JOINING Dragonair.
You will be expected to report to HKG do your duty cycle and go home again in your own time or provide your own accommodation in HKG, no housing allowance.
Kids school? sort it out yourself.
Travel? sort it out yourself.
You will not have much change out of your $5400, don't expect me to buy you a beer in the China Coast.

[Plasma]

No kids or expenses... I currently fly the B747 anyway I am not coming for the type..My mate has a 3 bedroom in Tung Chung for 7000HKD a month. I will likely do the same. CR pays less and they live in HKG OK.

Look, I am not trying to be an ass. Frankly I am sure my technical knowledge is not up to KA standard, But I will go to the interview and ask the questions.

Cheers.

[McDull]

Hey, I'm fascinated. Where is there another 744 operator that pays worse than this shabby deal? You say you have no comitments and are prepared to live in a dive in concrete city for 7K a month. Can't be bigger than 700sqft - great lifestyle!

You are exactly what the KA management want. Someone cheap who thinks like them! So it may be OK for CR or HKE, but take a look at the threads on this forum with comments from their employees. They 'aint happy and are leaving. But perhaps you aren't intending to stay long anyway as you seem to think that a nice place to live or schooling isn't important.

[Plasma]

There are a lot.. have you looked at starting salaries in the Gulf these days.. I inteviewed and was hired at Jade Cargo in SHZ, but delined as their pay was about $1500 less than KA. China Airlines across the water pays less.. almost every other operator thats not CX or BA pays the same of less than KA. With Perdiem / allowance ect.. I expect 5400 is more like 70-7500 a month.

Did you know that there are a lot of -400 on the street still? Experienced, typed and layed off?

As for living in DB (golf cart heaven) or Tung Chung, I would chose my mates 1200 sq foot place anyday. Facilities at Caribbean Coast are fantastic.

The point of this this thread was for those of us GOING to interview to get more information, not to get career advise.

[Karunch]

Might also be worthwhile telling the interviewers that you are recording the interview. They have a track record of interview promises (or 'expectations') failing to appear in the final contract. Of course this only becomes apparant after you have resigned/ moved country etc. The classic freighter crews have still not recieved what they were promised at interview 6 years ago.

Keep a low profile in HK I suggest.

[Plasma]

Might also be worthwhile telling the interviewers that you are recording the interview. .

Yeah.. they'd love that. I imagine sitting on top of and riding their B747-300 model in the lobby, shouting "yehhhh hawww mother f@cker" would be also be a positive!!

[Karunch]

It is quite clear that $5400 pm doesn't get much any more.

Riding the 743 probably wouldn't make much difference in your case Plasma.
Good luck , you'll need it if you are unable to learn from those who've been down this path before you.

[And Then]

Plasma, why do you want to live in Tung Chung without an expatriate package? The whole concept is a commuting package supposedly.

If you enjoy Tung Chung, you are well advised to hold off for a Hong Kong Airbus slot. Perhaps fly for Jade until you get an interview? They are furiously interviewing for Airbus slots at the moment. Maybe you are just a pawn in a game of trying to force conditions lower? You certainly come accross as the ideal candidate, 747 endorsed and willing to live in HK without the expat allowances and with good and well thought out arguments about the ban. A touch dillusional on your self worth in the market place as a 747 driver maybe. Actually, you mirror management sentiments very closely, if you aren't management already, don't worry about the interview. You will blitz it.

[And Then]

It is quite clear that $5400 pm doesn't get much any more.
Riding the 743 probably wouldn't make much difference in your case Plasma.
Good luck , you'll need it if you are unable to learn from those who've been down this path before you. Hong Kong Tax is still paid on that figure I believe.

[Plasma]

It is quite clear that $5400 pm doesn't get much any more.

.

There is $6hr perdiem that I equate at 3 trips a month long haul to be worth, $600 atleast. There is 10% gratuity - another $5400 yr, and there is Provident Fund.

so $7200 perdiem, $5400 grat, and the $64,800 is $77,400 + Prov fund.

I know it is not what you guys get. I WANT what you guys get. I want 65K for housing and to live at the 4 Seasons. HOWEVER, its not being offered.

So, I will go to the interview, try and do well, and see where it takes me.

[bbjetty]

just a quick note on the scab issue.

Most pilots who apply for a job are looking for a better job, better career and a brighter future, preferably in a major and respected airline like KA or CX.

Most attactive major airlines have either pilot unions or association. If they don't, then the company is probably located in the Middle East, Africa, China or other places where unions and associations are outlawed.

This means that the company can basically dictate what your working conditions are, you salary, your leave etc. You have very few rights. The company can change the rules as they wish, within the law.

If you take a job despite a IFALPA ban then you should know that most major pilot unions/associations have a list of pilots who have broken a previous IFALPA ban. Their names are known all over the world. This can (and probably will) prevent you from being hired by a respected company. This happened before, and also in Dragonair.

If your name is on that list then your career is probably limited to the previously mentioned Middle Easters, Chinese, or African airlines. Who want's to be stuck there?

With regards to the pilots who accepted a job in CX during the CX ban, well I guess they are stuck in CX now, wether they like it or not. But they are lucky that they got stuck in a respected and good company.

This will not happen if you take the current IFALPA banned job. You will be stuck in your career. I agree, it looks much better to have a 744 endorsement, but that is no good if no one wants to deal with you afterwards because of the scab-list.
If you are a F/O then you can probably also look forward to many years in the right seat, upgrades don't come easy......And you can't get another job.

All of us has worked hard to reach our flying ambitions. You can ruin or severly limit your future by taking a IFALPA banned job.

I hope that fellow colleagues take this info into considerations before taking any IFALPA banned job.

Much better to apply for a safe and well paid job in KA or CX or other jobs which are protected by unions and associations. You will get it when your number is up. There are thousands of jobs comming up in the next years......

[Pappy Boyington]

Anyone know what type the sim ride will be on?
Thanks in advance, PB.

[bbjetty]

The company (FCS - that you will be hired by) will have an interesting pilot group composition:

6 pilots with the best seniority in KA will be offered a transfer to this new 744 operation. They will be "on loan" and they keep their KA job and salary and they can retur to KA when they wish. They will be on A-scale with all the benefits that comes with it.

They are probably the guy's that succesfully have been fighting for better conditions for the KA pilots and fighting to keep this operation within the KA group.
Once they retire they will be replaced with the next most senior KA pilot!

These very senior pilots will be instructors and evaluators and thereby have a lot of influence on your future.

They loose nothing by going to this operation because they take the job under current KA conditions, which is what the dispute is all about.

This will go on for 25 years time until the new hired pilots are senior to all current KA pilots!!!!

Sound to me like a battle that cannot be won.

Will that be a career step?

[Trevor the lover]

For all you guys looking at doing this interview, please read this carefully and absorb it. Some of what I say has been covered, but it is an important issue and I feel it justifys a full and frank airing to allow you guys to be informed about this.

Why is there a fight between the pilots and Dragonair?
Why DOES this fight affect you?
Why is the financial deal offered so bad?

FACTS I am a F/O at Dragonair. I joined under a legal and binding contract that includes many benefits relating to being an expat - housing, schooling, provident fund etc. That contract also stipulates many aspects of my job including how the company must act in respect of me and how I must act in fulfilment of my contract.

One of the issues my contract addresses is the fact that new aircraft introduced into Dragonair will be flown by Dragonair pilots by virtue of our seniority on our present terms and conditions. Obviously as new aircraft are introduced there is movement in the company and my command comes around quicker with all the commensurate financial benefits.

Dragonair has decided to say stick your contract, we are going to recruit outside the company (in breach of the contract) and pay jack sh!t. This is illegal, immoral and insulting to present hard working employees. So we the Dragonair Pilots don't just roll over and accept this - we fight for our rights. Just ONE method of fighting is via the recruitment ban. We don't expect it to be fully effective - but at least what it means is guys will stop and think that as an IFALPA recognised ban, they WILL be branded a scab.

A scab is a person who will undermine the job of another by taking away his rightful job and doing it for less for his own gain. You are taking my job. With 5 744s coming that is at least 25 commands I will miss out on, 25 commands that my contract says is rightfully and legally mine. So take this job and you take my job - you are a scab!

Plasma, your naivety stuns me. You posed 3 statements - 1. "I am not an IFALPA member." Mate, you do not have to be an IFALPA member to be branded a SCAB. 2. "It's a fight between KA pilots and the management, not mine. The pilots should act." Mate we are acting - but people like you make the fight so much harder. People who have no respect for others trying to maintain what they have and what they are entitled to. People who are damned stupid and selfish. 3. "look at all the guys at Cathay who joined during the ban - they are flying away happily" Yes they are. They are in an airline offering good pay, progression and a solid career. In other words they can stay there. You will have none of these in this job, NONE. You WILL very soon be looking for another job and as a scab, matey boy, good luck.

Dragonair are screwing us hard, do you think you will be immune to being screwed over? Don't be stupid son. Twatts will make your life miserable. Even on the package we are on morale is at an all time low. On the pocket money you will be on, the job will destroy you.

This is a fight for the industry as much as for ourselves. Too much selfishness and stupidity in Australia has ruined the industry there. So you and your mates come here on a crap deal, branded as a scab and get your hours up. You beauty - time to look for another job. Where you gunna go, where is the industry better. Mate its ruined, don't ruin it more.

Roo-c26B - you echo many of Plasma's naivety. You want this job to move you "on to the top" you say. Take this job mate and its all over for you. And it IS the new hirers fight. You also said you guys would become the victims of this fight. So if we Dragonair guys roll over and become the victims, rather than letting you guys be the victims, - mate that is scabbing. Remember 89 - the original pilots became the victims due to other guys accepting their jobs - and they are called scabs.

Imagine if where you are flying now, where you have been for a few years, working your way up to the twin, or the turbine, then they say we are getting a new CRJ for Charter. But you guys can't fly it. We've found some guys who will do it for heaps less.

THE PAY DEAL At the moment $5400 USD for an F/O is $7160 AUD per month. So $85920 per year. Plus $8500 gratuity. (forget the piddling per dium - if you are factoring that into survival then you know your pay is crap).

So all up about $94,000 AUD per year. If you choose to commute you will pay Aussie tax on that. If you choose to commute then you will need 3 return air fares a month. Lets say you do get them on ID90 (pretty hard to travel ID90 up to HK when you MUST be there. So this travel figure is probably very conservative), you are looking at $1200 per month, or for say 10 months a year, $12,000. You need to earn about $20,000 gross to spend that $12,000. So you are left with $74,000. And while in HK pay for your own hotel before and after your duty. I won't factor that in so lets say $74,000 is what you are left with. $74k to fly a B744 and plasma you think that is commensurate with the world rate. Chortle chortle. And $74k to spend most of your life sitting on a damn aeroplane.

So you decide to live in HK. Your pay is (with gratuity factored in) is $7,868 AUD per month. Mate, my rent for an average 3 bedroom residence is over $8,000 AUD per month. Live in HK on $7800 per month? Hope you like the smell of dogfood, but I don't think you'll be able to afford even that. Over $103,000 HK goes into my account each month. We live a fairly benign lifestyle and we are saving NOTHING. Try to do it on $42k HK per month.

This is not a pleasant company to work for. Our package helps somewhat. But you guys on this money, you will be so miserable when you start to realise what you have gotten yourself into. Our 6 year old freighter service is still a raving shambles. The new 744 operation is going to be laughable. You will fly to HK, then be told it's all too hard, the pattern is cancelled, go home and come back in 5 days time. Not trying to scare you here guys. This is what happens. These clowns here couldn't organise a root in a brothel.


And let me leave you with one more reality to really make you think. The DPA has issued a writ with the high court over the contract breach. The lawyers say it is open and shut. Dragonair has a very poor record in the courts, but they keep proving they are prepared to give it a go, but they keep losing. This writ will take a while - and when we win it, and Dragonair are forced to crew it by present pilots on present COS, where does that leave you?? On the street in Wan Chai mate, unemployed and all on your own. Think about it.

And KA will be doing much more Airbus recruiting this year.

And finally -- Dragonair are exceptionally good at filtering out the d1ckheads during interviews. So Plasma - don't even waste your time.

[Plasma]

So I am a d1ckhead for wanting to accept their offer.

Nice , you are truely a professional. In fact YOU are more of a reason not to work there than anything else.

Rents in Tung Chung are cheap. Less than 1000 AUS, not 7000. Want to commute, Thailand is close and very cheap.

I didn't make the rules, I am just playing the game. The fact of the matter is LIKE IT or NOT, there will be 20 guys hired next week to fly the 2nd -400. If its not me, its someone else.

How do you know we won't be offered mainline flying on the Airbus? It's not your decison, it's KA's and as you point out, they show little interest in keeping the contract with you. What exactly is stopping them from allowing a -400 guy onto an Airbus?


and when we win it, and Dragonair are forced to crew it by present pilots on present COS, where does that leave you?? On the street in Wan Chai mate, unemployed and all on your own. Think about it.


or does Dragon keep us on mainline?

You don't get it. It's not up to you or your DPA.

So you decide to live in HK. Your pay is (with gratuity factored in) is $7,868 AUD per month. Mate, my rent for an average 3 bedroom residence is over $8,000 AUD per month. Live in HK on $7800 per month? Hope you like the smell of dogfood, but I don't think you'll be able to afford even that. Over $103,000 HK goes into my account each month. We live a fairly benign lifestyle and we are saving NOTHING. Try to do it on $42k HK per month.

Then you are an idiot. I lived in HKG last year for 6 months and saved a mit making 50K month.

Rent 10K
Travel MTR 800
Food 300 day/ 9000
phone 200

so thats 20K. Where is the rest of you cash going? you need to reexamine what the expat life is about.; Its making £££££££££££. or saving them anyway.

Until you are willing to walk off your job enmass, you are a powerless enuch.

[Trevor the lover]

Ohh Plasma

you are just the sort of idiot this industry needs. You obviously read Pprune. Can't you see the damage that has been done by people like you constantly undercutting.

1. I was going to say I hope you get knocked back - but mute point. You are a tool and they will see that.
2. If you do get in,(and quite frankly I must admit it is possible because anyone who applies for this package is obviously a dim wit, so therefore all other interviewees will probably be as stupid as you) I will enjoy watching you go broke.
3. Thanks for not listening to sound, solid reasoning from people in the job. **** we don't need people like you destroying jobs.
4. You are a scab. I hope you become branded and live with the consequences forever.
5. You called me an idiot. Well idiot or no idiot, I will be on 3 times the wage you are on and with a far better A330 lifestyle - so who is the idiot.
6. You said in one post you would love to be on the package we are on, something about wetting yourself. Well dopey, how are you ever going to be on a package like this when you and other twits tell airline managers that you are willing to work for food. Can I suggest you never will.


6. Sorry Woomera - but this guy is a clown, and I'm sure you can see that. His attitude is despicable. To be honest I would pull out all stops to help him get an Airbus job in KA if he were to see the light and be honorable.

[Trevor the lover]

And one more thing

How do I know KA won't put you on the Airbus in the future????? Because KA tried once alrady to put a scab on the Airbus and they lost. This is not a weak pilots association. And that scab didn't even scab against KA pilots. So you scabbing against us - coming to the Airbus????? Mate you are dreaming, it cannot possibly happen. You are on povertyy wages forever. Live it up numbnuts.

[Fly747]

Plasma what do you not understand about the fact YOU ARE NOT BEING OFFERED A JOB WITH DRAGONAIR. You will not transfer to Airbus because they will want to keep you in Flight Crew Services where you have been daft enough to accept a job. If you want our package then apply to join Dragonair.

PB I suspect the sim will be on Airbus.

[Dashtrash]

Trevor,

It's probably easy for guys like you to see the bad points about this gig. If guys want to stop flying turboprops around, who are you to stop them? Who made you God?

Remember 89'???? Why don't you and merry brothers f@cking get over it! If it's such a sh@t gig, why the fuss????

Maybe you should take your 3x salary and A330 lifestyle and with some luck you'll fall of the back of your yacht and f$%king drown.

Good luck to the guys going for this. Do your homework, and make your own decision on it. If these guys rememer 89' they'll retire soon. If they think they're doing you a favour, tell them to swap with your current jobs so they can taste hard work for a change.

[Plasma]

Plasma what do you not understand about the fact YOU ARE NOT BEING OFFERED A JOB WITH DRAGONAIR. You will not transfer to Airbus because they will want to keep you in Flight Crew Services where you have been daft enough to accept a job. If you want our package then apply to join Dragonair.

PB I suspect the sim will be on Airbus.

I understand they are paying thru FCS, but doesnt CX pay their freighter crews through ACS. 2 Seperate companies there too, with 2 different pay packages.

I DID APPLY FOR DRAGON MAINLINE,
I am being offered this.

If I call KA and tell them to piss off about this, will that get me on mainline? Come on mate, you know that would only ensure I NEVER get interviewed for mainline.

[And Then]

Trevor,
Remember 89'???? Why don't you and merry brothers f@cking get over it!

Most of your new bosses will be ex-89 son. A good deal of the trainers holding your hand too.

[ROO-C26B]

Gentlemans,

Can't you all see the core of the matter is that those KA pilots cannot get what they want to fly the B744 and pulled a fast one on the rest of us. It got nothing to do with seniority to command, real bullsh#t! Real shame that these pilot hide before an IFALPA ban. If these guys are earning that much so why the BIG FUSS!!!!!!!! Take a look at SIA, MAS, CX, ANA they all have a cargo divison operates as seperate company. Face reality guys you will never win. This is Asia not US or Europe nor Middle East get used to it! So selfish just to ruin it for those who wanted to progress.

Plasma and Dashtrash, well said! :ok:

[And Then]

Here in lies the problem with recruitment bans.

Look at what's left above. :ugh:

[Trevor the lover]

Plasma, Dashtrash, Roo,


You guys don't see the point. We are not against you per se. We are against KA doing what they are not legally and fairly entitled to do. 89 is not a shot duck because it is all happening all over again.

We are not hiding behind an IFALPA ban. It is just one weapon being used.

You guys really really mis the whole point of what is going on. There is no point trying to make you clowns see logic.

For ****'s sake - I hope you all get the job, you will soon realise you have ****** up, you will be broke, you will be branded a scab (because that's what you all are), you will be misearable, and when you try to leave all that will be available will be China or India, and when you are all laid off with the High Court's ruling against KA you will all cry foul.

You guys know the risks.

And me and all my honorable mates in KA will be laughing our guts out.

You are all as dumb as your log books are skinny.

[Trevor the lover]

and one more thing Roo.

Youa asked in an earlier post for the real facts. I actually thought maybe you were smart enough to look at it objectively. WRONG.

How are we the selfish ones when our company brings in new aircraft and says but you guys can't fly them. This is our company. We are not trying to halt your progression at all. AND IT IS ABOUT OUR SENIORITY AND PROGRESSION TO COMMAND. Read my earlier post - 5 new aircraft means 50 pilots to go across, which means 50 slots off the Airbus . Which means 25 commands on the bus, one of them mine, AND 25 new F/O's off the street,maybe you guys, on present COS, no run down of pay.

How can you possible say it is not about progression to command. You are so naive.

[CallButton]

Trevor, I read your initial posts and thought, "Well done!" You posted factual information to allow these guys to see what they could potentially be getting themselves into. You are undoing all your good work by getting into a slanging match.

For anyone applying for the FO positions, why on Earth would you think that KA will allow you to move on to the Airbus COS down the track? You will not be on the seniority list (because if you were, why are KA interviewing guys AFTER you for Airbus positions who will effectively be junior to you?? i.e. pilots employed after you will be on better pay and conditions)

As far as the argument goes about telling KA (in a nice way) that you are not interested in the freight position, but rather an Airbus one, this is more than reasonable. They have created these (freighter) positions for pilots who want to commute, not ones who want to live in HK. If you want to live in HK you want to apply for the Airbus positions. Everyone's circumstances are different and the KA interviewers know this.

BTW unless something has changed, the gratuity IS the provident fund. And 10% versus 15% for other HKG based KA pilots...

[ROO-C26B]

I absolutely underestand the entire issue and the politics involved. Yes, I 've applied for the Aibus pax fleet for the past 6 years and the only positive reply from KA HR was this freighter position not the pax. So could I ask you all if you were in my shoe what would you have done, accept the invitation for an interview or reject it and never will get a call again. Because now you will be black marked as an unsuitable candidate. Do I dismiss this opportunity, no, compares to some of the offers out there this is a better deal than most currently been offered in the market. Look at Air China, China Airlines, EVA Air, China Eastern, SIA, CX, Air Macau, CR, HKE, Viva Macau, MAS, Hanian Airlines and etc, all are very simular not much better.

Travor, read your own post buddy the real underline agrument is exactly what I've said because you might missed out a command opportunity, right.
So for those 25 possible commands these group of senior KA pilots would kick up a big sting.

As mentioned before everyone's circumstances are different commuting works for me. I already own a 2150' sqft place in HK.

[Plasma]

Exactly. I can share my mates 3 bedroom flat for almost no money. HKG need not be expensive.

As far as hiring Airbus guys from under us, its something I am going to ask in the interview. Where do they see us in a few years, what are the options.. hopefully I can get them to put me into the AIrbus hiring group.

But as far as declining the interview, that would ensure I never got on.

I am sure it will piss you off to know Trevor, that I have 3 mates at KA too, and they are providing me with lots of help for the interview; Everyone is not so militant as yourself.

You gotta play the ball, not the man;

We don't make the rules, we are just trying to both get a head.

Personally, I hope you guys get it sorted and get the $$$ ect.. I hope they wish they offer me an Airbus right seat.. I hope for peace in East Timor too..

What's more likely in the the new semi communist SAR is the company and government ( let's remember who has a large % of ownership in KA - CINAC which is a Chinese gov't business) will do as the like. Things like senority will likely become a thing of the past. Will guys leave, absolutely.

Hey, I am willing to go for mid 70's a year; not for mid 50s. I assure someone will. There are guys that will go for mid 30s a year, and then the 50K guys will leave. Then you have some Phillipino or Indo guys for which 2500 USD a month is good coin, and they will take it.

There is no answer..just make your ££ while you can.

[CallButton]

Jeez Roo, you must have had some decent paying jobs AND be an old fart. A 2150 sq ft place is conservatively worth $13 Million HK...

[KAFO]

I am a Professional Pilot on the Airbus fleet. I love my job.
What I don't love is the un-intelligent cheap shot that you had at my colleague Trevor. Let me refresh your memory, 'challenging us to walk off the job enmass and stating that my team member is a powerless enuch'.
This sort of attitude will do you harm up here. If you are going to come up, perhaps you should re-evaluate yourself and not be so reactive.
KAFO:=

[Plasma]

KAFO,

I came looking for info on my interview, but I got a fight.
As mentioned I have friends at KA and they agree. If the KAPA wants prospective pilots not to come, then they need a stronger stand. I do not want ANY part in the fight or the goings on. I simply have been applying for years to KA and finally have an interview.

[Howard Hughes]

I have been watching this thread with much interest, as I too have a Dragonair interview. From my vantage point it certainly does seem that there is somewhat of a sh:mad:t fight going on and it does make me look long and hard at the position. I do however have a couple of burning questions and a bit of a hypothetical that I would like answered.

I am treating the trip to Hong Kong and interview mostly as a fact finding mission. Because living in Australia it is nigh on impossible to get the story straight with regard to Dragonair. I will attend the interview with an open mind and ask the questions I need to make up my mind about the issue.

Now I have a question for the DPA, will the DPA be making availaible representatives, to talk to prospective interviewees and put forward their side of the story. I think this would be essential in gaining the required knowledge in order to make an informed decision!

As far as the positions go this would certainly be a step up for me, both on aircraft type and pay, I could commute quite easily from Australia and still get a lot more cash in hand than I do now. I suspect that this is probably part of the the reason, that some of the applicants have been invited and it is a smart move by Dragonair.

As for me personally, given the short time frame, my current experience and what I know about the Dragonair interview process it, will be an uphill battle for me to pass the interview process anyway, so this all may be a moot point.

So here's my hypothetical...

Assuming all things go well and I am accepted by Dragonair, I am being asked by the DPA to knock back the position, in order to protect their members positions. Now this is something I would certainly give thought to, but I would like to know if I am going to make a VERY LARGE SACRIFICE for the DPA, what will they do to help me?

If I am expected to knock back my dream position, will they then come to my aid and fight my battle? Because at that point I would have been found suitable for a position at Dragonair, will the DPA then push for me to join Dragonair through more conventional means? I would certainly like to be a Dragonair pilot and the commuting roster certainly appeals to me, but I don't necessarily want to be branded a pariah for the rest of my career.

DPA and it's members, can I count on your support?
Cheers, HH.:ok:

[Ka-life]

Howard Hughes!
Contact the guys in DPA and ask for their thoughts.
You will find their emails thru their website www.dpa.hk

I think you need to read up on Dragonair a bit more. Dragonair is not a company to join with a substandard COS. You will not enjoy your lifestyle.

[bbjetty]

Plasma,

Of course you can have a "decent" life, or maybe even save a little money for your retirement scheme. You should start the savings now because you will need it. You cannot have both lifestyle and savings on that FCS contract.

And you better stay with your friends in their 3 bedroom appartment. Your future family might even like. But I really doubt it.
Once your family have had enough, then you will have to look for another job. Unfortunatly, no body wants you because you broke the ban. There you go, stuck in HKG with no money and a wife that bugs you. That's what I call a great carreer.
Its is very short sighted and probably inresposible to yourself to say that you can live like that.

to sum it up: you screw yourself:D and you screw the KA-pilots and their families.:=

They will treat you accordingly, I hope.

On the other hand, you might be lucky and find a sweet and beatiful chineese girl. This will instantly solve your appartment problem since you can stay with her family. Then you can really save for that retirement and for your super Hong Kong lifestyle. Not a bad thing..

[bbjetty]

forgot one thing.

You have applied for a job in Dragonair, and the company has offered you an interview. It is apparently the way to do buisness in HKG. The company is using your weak position to offer you a crabby job.

Your dream is to join Dragonair, and you want it so bad that you cannot see the facts.

You have probably convinced yourself that you are joining Dragonair, but this is not the case. You are joining FCS, which is a low cost attemp.

Look at the other low cost carriers around. They started with a "less than acceptable" deal. Still, their conditions are being erroded away. This will happen in FCS as well, and then you will be in an even worse position than now. That chineese family thing gets more and more realistic....

Dragonair is telling you exactly what you want to hear, don't trust a word they say at the interview. They have changed position before. They use the Dragonair name to convince you that this is indeed a Dragonair job. Don't fool yourself.

I assume that they are looking for responsible guys so it is perfectly acceptable to decline a job offer on basis that you can only support your family on the real Dragonair contract. If they cannot accept this, then the question is if it worth working for FCS.....

[CallButton]

There is no way known that the DPA could support you/fight for you if you were to make the sacrifice and knock back the -400 position. They are a union, they don't tell the company who to employ. No matter how much they would like to help.

I think that all the relevant info has been posted here (if you look past all the slanging) and you can make up your own mind.

You really must be careful in making your decision however. The contract being ofered is full of holes. The pilots in KA still don't know exactly how it will work.

You say you want to commute - make sure you check to see what sort of groups of days-off the contract guarantees. No-one up here can get an answer. (i..e. there is NO answer, no-one knows yet).

Don't forget you will need to buy confirmed tickets to commute out of your own pocket. I don't think that you will be able to travel subload and I know that KA will not accept any excuses when you don't make sign-on.

Loads of other questions that I am sure you will be able to ask.

If you are coming up as an FO I personally don't think any of you will get a hard time from the incumbents (maybe pity?:hmm: ). If you are lucky enough to be included on the KA seniority list (another good question) you will be junior to everyone. BUT you will still be IFALPA black banned for interfering in a legal dispute.

Don't take anything that is said in the interview as fact. Make sure it is in the contract. And not the 'contract summary' that is given out at the interview. (The FCS -300 pilots in Manchester were told that they would get 15% gratuity during the interview. After they had given notice, they received the actual contract - now 10%).

I don't know why it has taken some of you so long to get interviews, as KA has been expanding rapidly for the last few years. Have you thought that you are now indeed the next most-highly qualified, suitable applicants in the application pool? You have been applying because you want to live in HK and/or you know what the package is, and that is what you want. You will be doing yourselves an injustice if you accept less than what you wanted when an Airbus interview may be just around the corner.

BTW Roo - "Can't you all see the core of the matter is that those KA pilots cannot get what they want to fly the B744 and pulled a fast one on the rest of us"

You are speaking out of your arse. We have a contract and it includes a seniority policy. We fly KA aircraft on our AOC out of HKG. It is very simple. When the company attempts to illegally move the goalposts you think that we should just accept it?

And if this worst case scenario was to take place I can just see you complaining in a few years, "You Airbus guys should have done more to stop this happening, you should be supporting us and getting our pay and conditions up, its not right or fair...":{

[Trevor the lover]

Call Button
Thank you for your support and yes I did get into a slanging match. I aplogise to readers, to Plama, Roo and the others.

Why did I get wound up. This is my first ever dealing with a potential scabbing issue and it hurts. To have KA do this to us sux, it is wrong, and being aided and abbetted is frustrating. This is why Australia is so stuffed now.

To Roo, Plasma et all, I understand your position wholheartedly, I have had two cases of unemployment, 9 months and 6 months -it is very stressful with kids and a mortgage. I know how much it hurts to want the job. But PLEASE read the posts from the guys in the know. If you can't see our side of the issue - fine. But at least read the warnings of what it means to you.

HK Express employed guys on a **** deal and already they have introduced a B scale and renegged on important contractual obligations. This is what this place is like. KA are doing it to us, they will do it to you. DO NOT underestimate them.

Your pay will be bad, your lifestyle will be virtually non existant. Our freighter organisation is very shambolic, not necessarily the company's fault, just the cost of doing business. There will be occasions where you commute to HK, be told it has all changed, go home. You won't be reimbursed for your ticket.

One guy who went from the Airbus across to the classic says he loves the freighter operation. It is so shambolic that he gets so many phone calls saying his pattern has gone pear shaped, stay at home. So he is getting more time at home than he ever was.

And Howard Hughes - I actually believe that if you did the right thing the DPA would offer help. I certainly would. PM me any time dude.


At the end of the day guys, do what you must do. Just read the warnings and go in eyes open. Good luck to you all.

And as for me - for all my rants and raves, it probably won't effect me in the end anyway. Because like so many of my colleagues, this company is doing its best to piss me off left right and centre so I and many of my colleagues don't intend to hang around.

Trev

[And Then]

A few more points for prospective F/O's- a) Not making sign on on a staff ticket is a sackable offence. It doesn't matter if it was caused my mechanical or wx. b) The company hinted at a five year freeze for current KA pilots on the 747-400 due the high cost of training. I can understand this. Airbus driver is trained on 747 and a replacement trained on Airbus. The double whammy accountants hate! I believe for this reason there will be no promised progression onto the Airbus fleet the new hires. Because they are already so cheap and willing, keep them there! Airline accountants all around the world have learnt this trick.

[ROO-C26B]

Latest news: Air China Cargo, China Cargo Airlines and Dragonair to merge .

This is going to be very interesting

[alexb757]

Latest news: Air China Cargo, China Cargo Airlines and Dragonair to merge .
This is going to be very interesting

And even more interesting is that KA Cargo (aka FCS) have said that they will put on ice all those applications sent in for the proposed 744 fleet in North America. Looks like they will not now need those crews in SFO or JFK - only HKG and they had plenty of applicants for HKG base. They never said never, just that it has been put on hold for the forseeable future. Maybe this was the real reason??.....
Moral of the story: Who do you believe and what do you believe. Everyone seems to be pulling the wool over their eyes!!:=

[ROO-C26B]

I take everything on the surface only. As far as I know people invited for the interview is for HK base only.

[Plasma]

Yes , my invite is for HKG. Not US base.

[Dan Winterland]

Extracts from an article in today's SCMP.

Air China yesterday confirmed that it was in talks with China Cargo Airlines (CCA) about the potential for future ''business co-operation'' with it's freight division, Air China Cargo.

''The two companies are in contact in regards to the potential for future business co-operation'' said Rao Xinyu, head of investor relations for Air China. ''On whether or not a merger will be the result, we have no comment''.

Xinhua, citing a weekend report in the Economic Observer, said the company created by the merger of Air China Cargo and CCA would also envelop by the end of the year the cargo division of Hong Kong Dragon Airlines (Dragonair).

Dragonair's chief executive Stanley Hui Hon-chung was not aware of the supposed merger yesterday, according to an official for the company. Air China officials too, were suprised by the report.

''It's true there are discussions (with CCA) but I see no reason why Dragonair has been inclued'' Ms Rao said. Asked if Dragonair is in anyway involved, she said ''No''.

[Elroy Jettson]

No wonder they wanted to keep the freight and pax fleet crewing separate!

Freight to Air China Cargo Co and China Cargo Airlines Ltd, and the pax fleet to Cathay?

This will be interesting to watch!

[McDull]

The original requirement was for USA bases. Then came the 'USA base with a Hong Kong report' and now we have just 'Hong Kong report'. The T's and C's offered to existing KA pilots for this deal mention that any gratuity will have the company MPF contribution deducted. So this deal is for a Hong Kong base - on the new C scale!

Although the offer mentioned positioning time, don't believe it until you see it in your contract. Of course when you see first the contract it will probably be on day one when you're committed. Then you're rooted! You will be working what is allowed by the FTLs :{

[alexb757]

The original requirement was for USA bases. Then came the 'USA base with a Hong Kong report' and now we have just 'Hong Kong report'. The T's and C's offered to existing KA pilots for this deal mention that any gratuity will have the company MPF contribution deducted. So this deal is for a Hong Kong base - on the new C scale!
Although the offer mentioned positioning time, don't believe it until you see it in your contract. Of course when you see first the contract it will probably be on day one when you're committed. Then you're rooted! You will be working what is allowed by the FTLs :{

And here is the SECOND letter this month I have received from Doris.....in case any one doubts it. Note it is strictly for the freighter division with NA bases (LAX & JFK). Mention of HKG report also. Looks like it's a 180 from the original ad back in Mar.

We write to acknowledge receipt of your application letter in response to
our March 2006 advertisement for Flight Crew positions B747-400.

We thank you for your interest in our company and the
positions advertised. However, and given the number of
applications received for positions with a Hong Kong rather
than a North American point of report we are currently
re-considering the need for any positions reporting for duty
at Los Angeles or New York.

We will, however, keep your application on record and let you
know in the event we decide to commence operations reporting
to Los Angeles or New York and in the event a decision is
made at that time to consider your particular application
further.

Thank you again for your interest

Yours faithfully,



Doris Au
Manager Crew Resources

[Fly747]

All a bit academic now with the take over. Are they paying for you to get to HKG for the interview? It will be a pity to travel there just to be told that all recruitment is suspended pending the restructure!

[HIALS]

The word 'pawn' was used early in this thread. It seems to have been very appropriate.

I suggest that all of you hoping and aspiring to join this operation have been used-up big-time by KA management. Just as previous posters here in KA mainline tried to warn you. It's happened faster than expected, that's all.

While the backroom deal was being constructed (CX to buy KA) it was important to 'keep up appearances'. Pretending to recruit self-interested outsiders did the trick.

Now the 744's will doubtless go to CX, and all your hopes and aspirations will evaporate. If there is any saving grace - you got saved, by circumstances, not good judgement from becoming scabs.

[Plasma]

Asked Ka that very question today, and was told that even if CX deal goes through it will take some time.. Any new hires now (and they are hiring) will stay on.

[ROO-C26B]

Plasma,

I called today also spoke to Miss Cheng, as quote "There will not be any side effects on the hiring. If the take over succeeded those whom are hired will stay on."

Cheers!

[Trevor the lover]

Yep, as C scale airbus drivers probably. Hope you enjoy bringing down the wages of what was a good gig. C scale is here to stay. Live it up guys.

[alexb757]

All a bit academic now with the take over. Are they paying for you to get to HKG for the interview? It will be a pity to travel there just to be told that all recruitment is suspended pending the restructure!

Maybe, maybe not! They are not interviewing (@ least not for the that ad placed in Mar) and even if they were, it was not for several months to come. So, in answer to your question, I have no idea. In fact, there was no mention of interviews even being done in HKG! My airline flies there anyway, so would not have been a problem.

Pawn, saved etc.? Again, maybe, maybe not. I take every application nowadays with a pinch of salt (maybe I've been in the industry too long) and don't expect too much and if it happens, it's a bonus. They play games and so do I sometimes. Any interview is a two-way street - or should be. The purpose is to see whether youwould want it in the end. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a candidate turning down a job - even good ones, if it does not meet your criteria. I'm not sure what this "herd" mentality is that you must attend every interview you have gotten or that you have to be devasted that you were not successful. That's life, pure and simple! Besides, as as been eloquently illustrated here on this thread, everyone has a self-interest and their own agendas. Again, that is nothing new, particularly in this business.

As mentioned above, I was emailed TWICE to say that interviews are suspended for the time being. So, there is no question of having to travel to HKG to be told the same!

It was an opportunity, the company made the solicitation by placing the ad which required certain specifics - all of which I met. I was interested but realized it was probably a long shot, nothing more. Therefore, I am not upset, life's too short for that. Been there, done that and yes, got the T-shirt, too:)

[mairyhinge]

Plasma & Roo,
Just something else to think about. The people interviewing you are quite possibly ex 89'ers, they will interview you, sure, but as per the KA policy, they do not need an excuse not to hire you. All they have to say is "no" and you will be sent the not successful letter. And believe it or not, they are still grumpy about 89.
Also Miss cheng is a clerk who may not know the full story. Just something to think about is all. Take it or leave it. :uhoh:

[Trevor the lover]

Alexb757

Good post mate. I like your attitude. Not enough realists in this game any more.

The only positive of attending as many interviews as possible - you get better at interviews and learn how to answer questions better.

And yes Miss Chen is a clerk - she really knows no more than anyone else - and believe me, even flight ops management right up to the GMO know sweet FA of merger ramifications. So Miss Chen has to say something - take it all with a grain of salt.

[MONK]

Just a query.....

The word "scab" gets used quite often here. I always thought you are only a scab if you take a position from someone (or organisation) who is on strike or on the picket lines so to speak. I don't see anyone on strike here....there are no picket lines....so why are they scabs?

[ROO-C26B]

As Alexb757 have said, I will treat this as an interview experience. If I get it a bonus if not it will be an experience.

In regards to the take-over by CX one cannot specular what might CX would do, operates KA as a seperate entity or merge it to the CX brand name. I would think CX would operates KA as a seperate entity, think about the seniority issue and COS alignment.

Whatever happens at my interview with FCS it will be an experience added to my interview credentials.

Those who are attending the interview wish you all good luck!

Cheers

Monk, Good point buddy! :ok:

Trevor, thanks for the advise!

[knackeredII]

You seem to be having some difficulty grasping the fact that you will not be working for Dragonair. All this ambition to work for a company and you're applying for something else. A certain lack of foresight here. It may be Dragonair painted on the aircraft, but it will NOT be Dragonair.

[Fly747]

Old news now! Who knows what will happen.
Will it be Air China with the new CX joint venture? But FCS will probably cease to exist well before any takers even start their course. I guess they will just drop this 400 recruitment anyway.

[SMOC]

It's in the press somewhere that the KA branding will only be kept for 6 more years (2012) therefore I assume that the two companys will have to be merged prior to this.

It could be mean that it will take 6 years for CX to repaint the entire KA fleet.

The last KA A/C (probably freshly painted yesterday in KA colours) won't, as you'd expect see the hanger for it's next D check for guess what 5-6 years.

[Fly747]

I very much doubt the 400s will ever be seen in KA colours.

[Plasma]

You seem to be having some difficulty grasping the fact that you will not be working for Dragonair. All this ambition to work for a company and you're applying for something else. A certain lack of foresight here. It may be Dragonair painted on the aircraft, but it will NOT be Dragonair.

All new hires on the -400 get a senority number in the KA system and can bid off the -400 onto the Airbus for current Airbus package at the time. The -400 pay ONLY applies to that. I understand the Classic pay is also different. The work under FCS HKG.

Everyone is working for a different party under each contract for the aircraft.

[bbjetty]

"All new hires on the -400 get a senority number in the KA system and can bid off the -400 onto the Airbus for current Airbus package at the time.


Plasma,

what makes you think that you will be able to join the airbus fleet on the current airbus contract? This will never happen. KA will hire FCS pilots and they will always stay on that package.

This is KA way of introducing a new permanent C-scale and why would they EVER allow you to change to a liveable salary?????

All your info and comments sounds like you are from KA management trying to fool the rest of us.:=

[Plasma]

"All new hires on the -400 get a senority number in the KA system and can bid off the -400 onto the Airbus for current Airbus package at the time.


Plasma,

what makes you think that you will be able to join the airbus fleet on the current airbus contract? This will never happen. KA will hire FCS pilots and they will always stay on that package.



I suppose because I asked the specific question in my 2 interviews to be very clear. The C scale wage is for the -400 only. If you bid off the -400 you get whatever package (MAN/HKG) that is applicable.

Nice sim btw..Booting around in the A330 was a blast.

[Trevor the lover]

Glad you enjoyed it 'cause you'll never get to do it for real.

Just understand lads - you seem hell bent on believing what they tell you in an interview.

THIS IS WHY WE ARE IN CONTRACT COMPLIANCE. Because they have bull****ted to us all, changed too many parts of our COS, not followed up on promises, not honoured our contracts - and you Wallys keep saying "it will be so because they told me in the interview." Get it through your thick gonks - we are fighting the company to get what we are promised and contractually obliged to receive. THAT IS WHY WE ARE FIGHTING THEM.

You guys are in fantasyland if you think that you, who are not familiar with the ways of the company, know more about how they operate than we who have worked here for years. I tend to think we may be in a bit better position to judge the integrity of what the company has to say in regard to what you can look forward to in the future. So stop telling us that we are wrong because you were told so in the interview. When you have been in the company for a few years then your opinion may hold some credence. Until then I shall trust our own judgements on what the company will offer in the future.

[Fly747]

And to add to what Trevor says don't forget that those who interviewed you now have no authority at all, that has moved across the road. They do not know what is going to happen with the -400 now any more than you or I do.

[CallButton]

Hi Plasma

I won't get stuck in but I have to ask.

If you indeed do get a seniority number, and are able to bid for the Airbus fleet and contract, did they tell you what your freeze period is or how it works? Are you telling me that there will be NO new joiners on the Airbus fleet? That everyone will start on the 400 and move across? :hmm:

[Plasma]

Hi Plasma

I won't get stuck in but I have to ask.

If you indeed do get a seniority number, and are able to bid for the Airbus fleet and contract, did they tell you what your freeze period is or how it works? Are you telling me that there will be NO new joiners on the Airbus fleet? That everyone will start on the 400 and move across? :hmm:

Hello,

No, sorry if I was unclear.

I was being specific on the circumstances of new joiners under the -400 program.

The -400, like ANY fleet, has a two year freeze. After that should there be an opening you may bid and based on your senority recieve. All -400 joiners will share a common senority with the Airbus and Classic crews.

I have no idea if there will still be new hires on the Airbus.. I didn't mention it in my post.

[Plasma]

Glad you enjoyed it 'cause you'll never get to do it for real.

Just understand lads - you seem hell bent on believing what they tell you in an interview.

THIS IS WHY WE ARE IN CONTRACT COMPLIANCE. Because they have bull****ted to us all, changed too many parts of our COS, not followed up on promises, not honoured our contracts - and you Wallys keep saying "it will be so because they told me in the interview." Get it through your thick gonks - we are fighting the company to get what we are promised and contractually obliged to receive. THAT IS WHY WE ARE FIGHTING THEM.

You guys are in fantasyland if you think that you, who are not familiar with the ways of the company, know more about how they operate than we who have worked here for years. I tend to think we may be in a bit better position to judge the integrity of what the company has to say in regard to what you can look forward to in the future. So stop telling us that we are wrong because you were told so in the interview. When you have been in the company for a few years then your opinion may hold some credence. Until then I shall trust our own judgements on what the company will offer in the future.

If they are such liars and are going to ruin your life then leave. I have seen post after post here on a mass walk out, and it has never happened. There are a million Airbus jobs out there. It's easy enough to get one. If you are so unhappy - leave.

[Fly747]

Plasma, did they tell you a 2yr freeze or are you inferring it from your limited knowledge of KA? I have been told that the -400 will be a 4yr freeze following their experience with the classic where retraining costs due to inter-fleet movement has been much higher than they anticipated.
To move there has to be a vacancy, who knows what will happen, but the KA airbus fleet is likely to shrink under CX as green jets do PVG, PEK and TPE.
Also you are going to be junior to lots of CX SOs for that move, it could take even longer than 4yrs. All this is of course hypothetical as we are not likely to ever see the -400 with KA, it will now go direct to CX.

[Plasma]

Plasma, did they tell you a 2yr freeze or are you inferring it from your limited knowledge of KA? I have been told that the -400 will be a 4yr freeze following their experience with the classic where retraining costs due to inter-fleet movement has been much higher than they anticipated.
To move there has to be a vacancy, who knows what will happen, but the KA airbus fleet is likely to shrink under CX as green jets do PVG, PEK and TPE.
Also you are going to be junior to lots of CX SOs for that move, it could take even longer than 4yrs. All this is of course hypothetical as we are not likely to ever see the -400 with KA, it will now go direct to CX.


No, I asked specifically. I wanted the Airbus initially and was offered this.

2 year freeze according to M. K.

So I am keen to get off it asap. It would appear that it is all up in the air at the moment. I happy I got thru both interviews and the sim..if I was offererd a SO slot on -400 that would be fine too.

[alexb757]

Cathay seals Dragonair deal, taking lead in China
By Donald Greenlees International Herald Tribune

Published: June 9, 2006


HONG KONG Cathay Pacific Airways emerged Friday as the leading airline based outside mainland China to serve the booming Chinese aviation market with its announcement of a long-heralded takeover of Dragonair, a small local competitor with lucrative routes to mainland cities.

Cathay's purchase of Hong Kong Dragon Airlines is the centerpiece of a complex series of transactions that also shuffles ownership of Hong Kong-based Cathay and Air China, the mainland's largest international airline. The deal forges an alliance between the two carriers that shakes up the Chinese aviation market and cements their place as the main feeders of international air travelers into China.

Cathay will spend 12.3 billion Hong Kong dollars, or $1.6 billion, buying the 82 percent of Dragonair that it does not already own from shareholders, including an Air China subsidiary. It will also double its stake in Air China to 20 percent. In turn, Air China will buy $692 million of Cathay shares, lifting the total stake it holds in the company with a subsidiary to 17.5 percent.

The deal is the culmination of two years of on-and-off discussions as the owners of Cathay, Air China and Dragonair maneuvered over price, the details of an operating partnership and regulatory issues. While Cathay ultimately paid a substantial premium for Dragonair, participants and analysts characterized the outcome Friday as a win-win arrangement that would significantly increase the competitiveness of Cathay and Air China in the highly contested Chinese market.

For Cathay, the deal addresses the longstanding frustration that it has only been able to fly directly to two destinations - Beijing and Xiamen - in what it regards as its hinterland market. Dragonair flies to two Chinese cities, including servicing the rich Hong Kong-Shanghai route. Cathay will be able to better coordinate connections through Hong Kong into China and offer more competitive prices for flights to Chinese cities from overseas destinations.

A significant byproduct of the takeover deal will be to confirm the international airports of Hong Kong and Beijing as major regional airline hubs and gateways to China.

Christopher Pratt, chairman of Swire Pacific, the major stakeholder in Cathay, said the deal heralded "a new era for our growth and the development of the aviation industry" in China and Hong Kong. "We will reinforce Hong Kong and Beijing's position as primary aviation hubs in the Asia-Pacific region and provide a platform for growth and expansion into the mainland, the regional and internationally," Pratt was quoted as saying by Agence France-Presse.

Analysts said the deal positioned both Air China and Cathay to exploit the rapid growth in the passenger market in China. This year combined domestic and international passenger volumes in China are expected to reach 180 million, making it the second biggest global aviation market after the United States..

"The amount of demand coming in and out of China for passengers and freight is unprecedented," said Martin Craigs, president of Aerospace Forum Asia, an industry chamber.

"Clearly, like any good deal, there are many winners," he said. Air China, Craigs said, would gain "an immediately enhanced international network and a platform for them to build up their own services," and he said, " it's a golden opportunity for Cathay to build on Air China's comprehensive network." He also said Hong Kong and Beijing would benefit because the "effectiveness of air services are what makes great cities in the 21st century."

Under an operating agreement, Air China will be responsible for all of Cathay's passenger sales on the mainland and Cathay will be responsible for Air China's sales in Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan. The two will expand a code-sharing agreement, develop joint venture routes between Hong Kong and Chinese cities, and form a cargo joint venture in Shanghai.

The deal also required negotiations among a number of parties over a significant reordering of the ownership structure of Cathay and Air China. London-based conglomerate Swire Pacific, the largest shareholder in Cathay, and Citic Pacific will reduce their holdings in Cathay to 40 percent and 17.5 percent respectively. Air China will for the first time take a direct stake in Cathay by buying a 10.16 percent shareholding.

China National Aviation, a subsidiary of Air China, will sell its 43.29 percent in Dragonair to Cathay and Citic Pacific will give up a 28.5 percent stake in the airline.

Cathay's shares, resuming trade after Monday's suspension, got an immediate boost from the announcement, rising 6.9 percent, or 90 cents, to 13.85 dollars. Air China shares slipped 2.4 percent, or 5 cents, to 3.03 dollars.

HONG KONG Cathay Pacific Airways emerged Friday as the leading airline based outside mainland China to serve the booming Chinese aviation market with its announcement of a long-heralded takeover of Dragonair, a small local competitor with lucrative routes to mainland cities.

Cathay's purchase of Hong Kong Dragon Airlines is the centerpiece of a complex series of transactions that also shuffles ownership of Hong Kong-based Cathay and Air China, the mainland's largest international airline. The deal forges an alliance between the two carriers that shakes up the Chinese aviation market and cements their place as the main feeders of international air travelers into China.

Cathay will spend 12.3 billion Hong Kong dollars, or $1.6 billion, buying the 82 percent of Dragonair that it does not already own from shareholders, including an Air China subsidiary. It will also double its stake in Air China to 20 percent. In turn, Air China will buy $692 million of Cathay shares, lifting the total stake it holds in the company with a subsidiary to 17.5 percent.

The deal is the culmination of two years of on-and-off discussions as the owners of Cathay, Air China and Dragonair maneuvered over price, the details of an operating partnership and regulatory issues. While Cathay ultimately paid a substantial premium for Dragonair, participants and analysts characterized the outcome Friday as a win-win arrangement that would significantly increase the competitiveness of Cathay and Air China in the highly contested Chinese market.

For Cathay, the deal addresses the longstanding frustration that it has only been able to fly directly to two destinations - Beijing and Xiamen - in what it regards as its hinterland market. Dragonair flies to two Chinese cities, including servicing the rich Hong Kong-Shanghai route. Cathay will be able to better coordinate connections through Hong Kong into China and offer more competitive prices for flights to Chinese cities from overseas destinations.

A significant byproduct of the takeover deal will be to confirm the international airports of Hong Kong and Beijing as major regional airline hubs and gateways to China.

Christopher Pratt, chairman of Swire Pacific, the major stakeholder in Cathay, said the deal heralded "a new era for our growth and the development of the aviation industry" in China and Hong Kong. "We will reinforce Hong Kong and Beijing's position as primary aviation hubs in the Asia-Pacific region and provide a platform for growth and expansion into the mainland, the regional and internationally," Pratt was quoted as saying by Agence France-Presse.

Analysts said the deal positioned both Air China and Cathay to exploit the rapid growth in the passenger market in China. This year combined domestic and international passenger volumes in China are expected to reach 180 million, making it the second biggest global aviation market after the United States..

"The amount of demand coming in and out of China for passengers and freight is unprecedented," said Martin Craigs, president of Aerospace Forum Asia, an industry chamber.

"Clearly, like any good deal, there are many winners," he said. Air China, Craigs said, would gain "an immediately enhanced international network and a platform for them to build up their own services," and he said, " it's a golden opportunity for Cathay to build on Air China's comprehensive network." He also said Hong Kong and Beijing would benefit because the "effectiveness of air services are what makes great cities in the 21st century."

Under an operating agreement, Air China will be responsible for all of Cathay's passenger sales on the mainland and Cathay will be responsible for Air China's sales in Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan. The two will expand a code-sharing agreement, develop joint venture routes between Hong Kong and Chinese cities, and form a cargo joint venture in Shanghai.

The deal also required negotiations among a number of parties over a significant reordering of the ownership structure of Cathay and Air China. London-based conglomerate Swire Pacific, the largest shareholder in Cathay, and Citic Pacific will reduce their holdings in Cathay to 40 percent and 17.5 percent respectively. Air China will for the first time take a direct stake in Cathay by buying a 10.16 percent shareholding.

China National Aviation, a subsidiary of Air China, will sell its 43.29 percent in Dragonair to Cathay and Citic Pacific will give up a 28.5 percent stake in the airline.

Cathay's shares, resuming trade after Monday's suspension, got an immediate boost from the announcement, rising 6.9 percent, or 90 cents, to 13.85 dollars. Air China shares slipped 2.4 percent, or 5 cents, to 3.03 dollars.

[bbjetty]

Remember that you most likely will be stuck in Hong Kong (or Africa) for the rest of your workinglife if you accept the job in KA during the IFALPA ban.

And chances are that you will not make any more money than on the current FCS contract. Just look at the recent pay scale reductions/proposals in CX as described on Fragrant Farbour: 30 % cut!!!!!!!

My earlier mentioned chinese family is very realistic, indeed.

[joebanana]

If they are such liars and are going to ruin your life then leave. I have seen post after post here on a mass walk out, and it has never happened. There are a million Airbus jobs out there. It's easy enough to get one. If you are so unhappy - leave.

Perhaps that is why 3 FOs from the Classic fleet have resigned this week. No command prospects, atrocious rostering and complete indifference to any of our lifestyle concerns.

Did I mention gratuity??:ugh:

[Plasma]

Ban is on , but several Dragon Pilots bid on June 2nd for the B747-400 Captain slots..nice double standard..

I do not want to rehash.. Most likely NONE of the interviewies will be hired. Second most likely, if hired we will end up as SO's on Cathay's side when they take the -400's. My hopes are not high for getting this job.

Ban or no ban, circumstances have changed for everyone. It is entirely likely there may be a new narrowbody pay scale if CX is more hands on.. who knows.

Regardless, I enjoyed my visit to HKG, met up some friends at KA and CX, burned around in a A330 and got drunk in LKF..it was a great experience overall.

[Howard Hughes]

Just wondering if any applicants have been hired? All I know who attended, including myself failed to make it through the morning interview...:{
Cheers, HH.:ok:

[CallButton]

(w)hored??!!

Had to have a laugh when I saw that typo HH!

Sorry to hear that you were unsuccessful. Did you get a chance at the sim? Or did they tell you straight away. If they did I would suspect that the decision was made before the interview and was no reflection on you.

Plas, the ban is to stop externals jumping the KA seniority system. What double standard (applying for a position in your own company)?

[Howard Hughes]

Sorry to hear that you were unsuccessful. Did you get a chance at the sim? Or did they tell you straight away. If they did I would suspect that the decision was made before the interview and was no reflection on you.Thank you for your kind words, I also suspect that the decision was made before I walked into the room, kinda dissapointing really given the distance that I had travelled and the effort required in order to organise sim prep at short notice. I was told just after lunch that I would not be required to undergo either the sim or tech interview in the afternoon, couldn't even ask questions as to why, as the clerk who called didn't seem to know too much.

I enjoyed my trip to Hong Kong, what a great place, it was quite different to what I had imagined and definately a place I could live. I also enjoyed my sim practice on the Airbus, at least if nothing else I know that I am capable now!

Thanks to all who helped me prepare for the interview, your help was invaluable.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[And Then]

HH

Despite our industrial tiff, I am sincerely sorry to see you missed out. It is unfair not to have any feed back. You now do not know as to whether you were a pawn in the whole affair, or just duffed the HR interview.

There are a few guys in KA who missed out first time with HR, bought a new suit, started afresh and got in second time. Good luck in the future!

[Howard Hughes]

Gidday And Then,

I may very well have duffed the HR interview as many have before, or perhaps it was my cheap suit!!;) I just find it very funny that many seem to have missed out, perhaps we were all, 'unsuitable'...

Good luck to you too, hope everything works out for the better with the take over and the industrial troubles are sorted out.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[Plasma]

HH.

On the day I interviewed , myself and another candidate made it to the afternoon and on to sim. No one I know made to the second stage on subsequent days. Perhaps there was a decision later that day canning the whole process??

It is a little over a week since my interview. I am going to ring them a the 2 week mark should I not hear anything.

Sorry about your luck, I suspect it was not anything you did. It very well may have been predetermined.

[bobmij]

I have a Dragon interview coming up and would like some info on the process. If anyone has any recent experience I would appreciate a PM. Also, does anyone have a copy of the Preparing for the Cathay Interview book that they want to flog on?
Thanks in advance