PPL and ATCO Training? [Archive]

simoncooldude

12th May 2006, 14:35

Hey guys,

Just came back from my medical this morning and had a PPL medical alongside the CAA ATCO one. I knew that in the past, flight training was a part of the training process, but was unaware that this was still the case. Can anyone shed any light on this matter? Haven't found any mention of it on the NATS site, in the TATC contract or anywhere else!!!

Thanks for your help!

Si

Quincy M.E.

12th May 2006, 14:45

Hi Simon

I an not sure for certain but I seem to remember someone mentioning that it is still included. I will find out sooner or later when I start in September but would be interested to know.

I think they used to give you 10hrs flying.

Q

ADIS5000

12th May 2006, 15:14

NATS Flying training nowadays is only for those streamed to Airports (ie Aerodrome or Approach). If you are streamed Area (as is most likely!) then there isn't any flying training in the syllabus. However, if you are lucky enough to be streamed to Airports then you will get 15 hours at either Hurn, Wycombe or Manston. The flying is done between the end of the Basic Course and the start of your next course. This means that you lose a weeks holiday, but for 15 hours of free flying and additional ground school it's gotta be worth it!!
Regards ADIS

simoncooldude

12th May 2006, 15:14

Ah Quincy, I may be bumping into you in the hallowed halls of the college soon then! I'm starting in September as well (was schedueled for June, but exams just get in the way of everything!) Cheers for the info

Si

WexCan

21st May 2006, 16:28

Lucky enough to get aerodrome? I thought the salary was meant to be crap compared to area?

:)

GT3

21st May 2006, 17:15

Not crap.

And it depends, some aerodromes get the same as some radar units.

WexCan

21st May 2006, 17:18

Not crap.

And it depends, some aerodromes get the same as some radar units.
Ah right, I'm heading over to London for the selection tests next month. Aerodrome just seems a lot more appealing to me, nice to know that the pay isn't too bad.

EDIT: (That is, if I get through them :))

Dances with Boffins

22nd May 2006, 12:52

It's the same medical. In fact, the ATCO one is the Class A that you need to hold a CPL/ATPL, so it is higher than for a PPL. PPL doesn't include the cardio thingie.
Another freebie supplied by your ATC employer. Cool eh?

simoncooldude

22nd May 2006, 15:09

Cool indeed! Although I was slightly daunted at the prospect of being wired up.... thought I was about to sign on to the National Grid!!

Wexcan, Aerodrome seems more appealing to me too. Don't know why, just more attracted to it! Fingers crossed for you in your selection tests, good luck!

Si

WexCan

22nd May 2006, 16:22

Wexcan, Aerodrome seems more appealing to me too. Don't know why, just more attracted to it! Fingers crossed for you in your selection tests, good luck!

Si

Thanks for the good wishes. I suppose it's just the whole looking-at-planes-all-day bit that I like, I'd probably grow tired of it eventually. Call it my inner child. Or my inner spotter. :}

I'm already preparing for the tests - I'll be damned if I waste a flight from Dublin. Then again, I'm going for a few days so that I can say it was just an eventful holiday if things go pear shaped. The only test I'd say I'll really feel crappy coming out of would be the cube test. Matching and calculating are fine, just need to brush up a tiny bit on the mental arithmetic. Motivation, well I'd like to think I have that, and I'm poring over the info material and MATS Pt1 to soak up as much as I can.

Gonzo

22nd May 2006, 16:45

Aerodrome seems more appealing to me too. Don't know why, just more attracted to it!
Simon, I'll tell you why..... It's a proper job, not just a TCAS supplement that the area types do, while trying desperately to justify their salaries....

:E

WexCan

22nd May 2006, 17:38

Simon, I'll tell you why..... It's a proper job, not just a TCAS supplement that the area types do, while trying desperately to justify their salaries....

:E

As a matter of interest, what *is* the difference in salary? I'm surprised that Area gets more, considering how critical the aerodrome stages are and that, if my thinking is right, there's a lot more... thinking involved in gnd/twr/app?

If you get into the CATC how does the streaming process work?

hold at SATAN

22nd May 2006, 17:55

Now now Gonzo, let's not get into an Aerodrome vs. Area B*tch fight. := They do one aspect of ATC and we do another... in fact, looking at all the wonderful weather around us today, I'd much rather be pushing aircraft around on the ground than dodging wx cells etc.

Anyway, everyone knows that us Heathrow types are the best :p

ADIS5000

22nd May 2006, 19:14

WexCan

22nd May 2006, 19:19

WexCan,

Area (and London airports) controllers can earn up to 50% more than most regional airport controllers.

As to the streaming process. You are told whether you'll go Area, Aerodrome (Tower) or Approach about half way through the basic course. These days the vast majority are streamed Area. How the decision is made as to who (if anyone) is streamed for Airports ... as a Trainee you'll never really know! None of my course could work it out.

Regards, ADIS

Strange, a company directing people towards higher paid jobs. I suppose if the demand is there... The money does seem good but it just seems less exciting. Pity you don't get a choice.

simoncooldude

22nd May 2006, 20:08

WexCan,
Area (and London airports) controllers can earn up to 50% more than most regional airport controllers.
As to the streaming process. You are told whether you'll go Area, Aerodrome (Tower) or Approach about half way through the basic course. These days the vast majority are streamed Area. How the decision is made as to who (if anyone) is streamed for Airports ... as a Trainee you'll never really know! None of my course could work it out.
Regards, ADIS

I have scary images of a NATS "Sorting Hat".... in a stylish hypnotic blend of yellow and blue swirls! Fingers crossed I'm streamed down the aerodrome route, have always desired to go down that branch of ATC! Would actually like to see the planes that I'm controlling :)

Si

SATCO Biggin

23rd May 2006, 08:01

It's the same medical. In fact, the ATCO one is the Class A that you need to hold a CPL/ATPL, so it is higher than for a PPL. PPL doesn't include the cardio thingie.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I have to have two medicals (done at the same time admittedly). The ATCO is still a CAA Class 1 at the moment. The PPL requires a JAR Class 2. The two different regulatory bodies, CAA and JAR, do not accept each others standards.

The physical examination may only need to carried out once but you should get two pieces of paper, one for ATCO class 1 and the other for PPL JAR Class 2.

Quincy M.E.

23rd May 2006, 08:04

Yep, I already had a CAA/JAR Class 1 but I still had to have an ATCO class 1.

MancBoy

23rd May 2006, 08:52

Gonzo, "cleared to land , cleared to land , cleared to land , cleared to land, etc"
How dull!
Most sectors at Swanwick handle over 60 aircraft an hour, whereas the biggest agreed landing rate i've seen at heathrow is 44 an hour, so maybe thats why we get paid the same.
I agree with Satan about the weather over the last few days, at least you can see it and can get aircraft who aren't through v1 to stop. Weather avoiding at ground speeds of over 400 knots gets a bit tasty, especially when most of the airlines don't like being outside controlled airspace.

Gonzo

23rd May 2006, 09:32

Only one bite so far? One is disappointed.......

MancBoy

23rd May 2006, 09:37

I'm not biting pal.

Tower and Area are completely different and shouldn't be compared.

1985

23rd May 2006, 09:45

Only one bite so far? One is disappointed.......

Tut tut. Go back to bed :ok:

Gonzo

23rd May 2006, 10:06

Posted today at 1045:
Tut tut. Go back to bed :ok:

Hey 1985, early morning for you!!! :E

Roni f

23rd May 2006, 22:33

quick caviat to the lad quearing the flying time offered by nats

there is a 2 week BA course at the end of your 9 months at college where you will have the chance to take a couple of fan flights around europe, not easy to get in this day and age.

sure i will see you at the college

quick piece of advice start reading the MATS part 1 and the ANO rules section asap will give you a sound knowledge base for the basic course exams.

cheers Roni:ok:

WexCan

23rd May 2006, 22:38

foghorn

24th May 2006, 08:24

Are these jumpseat flights? :)

Affirm :ok:

simoncooldude

24th May 2006, 10:07

Where can I find the MATS Part 1? Is it available on the CAA website?

Cheers for the information on the flights Roni. Looking forward to them

Si

Gonzo

24th May 2006, 10:47

Here you go....

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=222

Quincy M.E.

24th May 2006, 11:02

Well that will keep me busy! 430 pps!:)

simoncooldude

24th May 2006, 16:27

Thanks Gonzo, looks like it'll make some light bed-time reading! 430 pages, slightly hefty! Lets get cracking then! :)

Si

WexCan

24th May 2006, 19:19

rodan

24th May 2006, 19:56

Seems if I do get in I'd prob have to go the area route -website says you need to be 20 to get a radar license, so for me that would allow me to start early 2007 and finish when I'm 20.

Wonder how that works.

When will you be 20? You need to be 20 to hold a radar rating (should that be a 'surveillance' rating in new-speak?), but you don't get one of those until you validate on a radar position at your unit. This could be anything up to a couple of years after you leave the college in Bournemouth, whether that be at an aerodrome where you validate in Tower first, or at an area unit, where it can just take a bloody long time. If you end up working at a tower-only unit, you'll never hold a radar rating, so it's not an issue.

WexCan

24th May 2006, 20:03

April 2 2008 (Yeah poor little young me.)

We are looking to recruit people for courses starting March, June, September and December each year. There is a slight problem with those candidates who are aged 18, as they have to be 20 in order to hold a radar licence, whilst we will, off course, let you go through selection, if you are successful you will be issued with a course date that ensures you are the correct age on graduation.

Kirk Biddlecombe

25th May 2006, 20:54

Of course Aerodrome seems a lot more appealing - as Simon said you get to see the aircraft you're controlling. But NATS stream about 80% of their intake down the Area route so I hear.
Personally I love area, especially TC. I was flying online just a short while ago and I think the Area controllers have a fun job, giving climb/descent/vector etc instructions. I think I like it because it's very varied and there seems to be an big element of creativity in it. I flew a BIG3B into LL but ended up being directed elsewhere due to me being to high, then orbited round to fly a long downwind due to other traffic coming in which was scheduled for arrival before me. Coming from a design background I love it, it's so creative.
Area is cool. :ok:

Kirk

SilentHandover

25th May 2006, 21:28

Hate to ruin your plans Kirk but that's all Approach radar you're talking about there, not Area!

Kirk Biddlecombe

25th May 2006, 21:38

especially TC

But area is surely similar? (In the sense that the job is to vector/climb/descend... aircraft no?)

rodan

25th May 2006, 23:36

But area is surely similar? (In the sense that the job is to vector/climb/descend... aircraft no?)
Nope, quite different. Area control is about funnelling large numbers of aircraft along airways and making sure that they get their climb and descent at appropriate times, whilst dodging slower aircraft on the same route, and other aircraft from the opposite direction and crossing tracks. The aircraft generally don't change direction that much, although they require vectors to maintain separation against other aircraft. To process the high volumes of traffic in an area control sector requires a lot of procedural planning and separation, whereas approach radar is more of a close-in knife-fight with fewer aircraft, but using radar more and working to closer tolerances of separation than an area controller, using vectors and speed control to keep a finely tuned sequence moving without wasting any space.

If I make area sound like more of a blunt art than approach, well don't let me mislead you. Whilst approach radar requires more finesse and precision, area is the harder discipline to master, and has it's own particular rewards.

Number2

26th May 2006, 11:01

Don't think I'd describe ATC as 'creative'. Not deliberately anyway!

tired-flyboy

27th May 2006, 08:31

Hi guys
If and when you pass at the college there are two routes that an area controller can go.

One is the one described by Rodan, En-route control which is at LACC (Swanwick!). :=

The second (and my personal favourite) is the departures task done by area controllers at TC (West Drayton). :sad:

As an area controller at TC we do the same job as the Approach guys except we take the planes the moment they are released from Tower and vector, speed and climb them till they get to a point where we can hand them off to the en-route guys who will eventually take them out of the UK airspace. As well as doing this we also control (at the same time) aircraft arriving into TC airspace and vector them to the nominated holds for the london airports. (descend them in the hold and then hand them off to the approach guys.

If it gets too busy we split the sector and deal with either departures or arrivals.

Hope that adds to your understanding of Area.

TFB :ok:

Kirk Biddlecombe

27th May 2006, 19:00

Thankyou TFB. I was a bit confused yes, glad you cleared it up.

Kirk

Roni f

29th May 2006, 23:43

Thanks Gonzo, looks like it'll make some light bed-time reading! 430 pages, slightly hefty! Lets get cracking then! :)

Si

si and quincy
mats 1 is a large document i would advise you to stick with section 1 this is an atc overview and will form most of your assesment at the college in basic course and then area foundation be aware for area foundation you must know this ver batum so the more you can get in just now the better Remember concentrate on section 1 dont worry about the rest and if you are really kean read section 5 emergencies

good luck guys
Roni

tired-flyboy

30th May 2006, 12:28

Thought at the college the official line was that you didn't need to know anything ver batim.

Its just that the instructors 'seem' to only mark the exams (fully) if you have quoted chapter and verse.

anyways i thought that the intro (or basic) was all multiple guess nowadays?

Its only when you move onto the area side of the house that the quesitons become full written answers....and i believe that this is to change (well it was muted about when my course was there!)

But i do agree with Roni F look at section 1 and if you can have a look at the the airspace section in particular (dif classes, vis requirements etc) these changed recently (ie Class C is now in the UK).

But in all relax (or at least try to) and enjoy yourself! :cool:

TFB :ok:

Quincy M.E.

30th May 2006, 12:37

Roni and Tired-f

Thanks for the advice, it will be taken! Also concentrating on section 1 will mean that I wont tie up the printer at work for so long!:ok:

tired-flyboy

30th May 2006, 12:40

Ah don't worry about the printer - you get your own copy of MATS pt 1

you get to keep it and update it.....oh it'll become like a well known credit card - you won't leave home without it!

well at least for the first month or so!!! (so SAD i know but its true!)

TFB :ok:

Quincy M.E.

30th May 2006, 12:44

quick piece of advice start reading the MATS part 1 and the ANO rules section asap will give you a sound knowledge base for the basic course exams.

cheers Roni:ok:

I was just going to do some pre start swatting. (is that sadder?) :cool:

simoncooldude

30th May 2006, 20:08

Roni and Tired. Thanks very much for the advice, it definately seems more manageable now to have it in a chunk!

Was hoping that you get your own MATS.... saw the cost of £60 from the stationery office, worried that i'd buy it and then get my own afterwards! I'll just keep it in good old .pdf for now me thinks!

Thanks for the insight into it all which has kind of made me stop panicking about everything (what will happen at college, how much will we need to know, will I have to remember it word for word). Your definately helping :)

Si

Roni f

30th May 2006, 21:45

tired -

the basic is now fully multiple choice, well apart from Human factors case study but i wouldnt be to worried abot that guys. you are also quite right there is a move in the college to have understanding of the material rather than to be a parrot however as it stands there is still a need for chapter and verse on the area foundation.

should have said guys dont by mats keep it on PDF for the mo you will be issued with one when you get to the college as well as an ANO.

sure you wil all be fine and i back up tirdes comments make sure you enjoy youselves when you get here you are lucky enough to do one of the best jobs out there :ok:

cheers Roni

simoncooldude

5th Jun 2006, 16:25

Thanks for your continuing helps guys, it's much appreciated! Just a quick question. I am tempted to buy a laptop at the moment, partly for the ATC course and partly for personal use. Does anyone know if the college permits the use of laptops and if so, do you recommend using one for note taking etc. Are there many notes that need to be taken in class? I'm fine with the old pen and paper method, but just wondering about the laptop way!

Thanks again guys,

Si

tired-flyboy

5th Jun 2006, 16:29

simoncooldude

5th Jun 2006, 17:06

Daft as it sounds there is something to do with COPYRIGHT and recording etc lessons.
Somebody on my course wanted to use a dictaphone and was told the above. they were advised to ask each individual lecturer for thier permission.
But don't worry there are PLENTY of handouts for the course, note taking is only to amplify the points of the lectures.

Ahh, I wasn't planning on using it for recording, just for taking notes! Quite a good idea though, but very strange about the copyright! What do you think about the notetaking idea? Worthwhile or not? Cheers!

Si

Number2

5th Jun 2006, 19:03

I think when you'll get there, you'll quickly realise when you need to make a note of something. There are so many papers listing previous exam questions etc going around as well. If you pull out a laptop, you may well get laughed at!

tired-flyboy

5th Jun 2006, 19:25

simoncooldude

6th Jun 2006, 09:28

Hahah :) I'll avoid that at all costs then! Thanks for the advice as always!

Si

Roni f

6th Jun 2006, 18:33

Does anyone know if the college permits the use of laptops and if so, do you recommend using one for note taking etc. Are there many notes that need to be taken in class?

hi si

the use of lap tops was brought up by the 207 course as there were a number of them about, we were given the opportunity to trial run the use of them in class to see how we found it. in the event i dont think any were used as you receive ample paper work to keep you happy the only notes you need are one liners.

one thing i would say is that it can be helpful for further research at home if you are keen, there are a number of wirless connections in the westby road area which will give you internet access.

hope this helps cheers Roni

Quincy M.E.

7th Jun 2006, 07:45

, there are a number of wirless connections in the westby road area which will give you internet access.

hope this helps cheers Roni

Do you mean unprotected wireless connections? ;)

tired-flyboy

7th Jun 2006, 08:41

A word of caution, using someone else's wireless network can be seen as fraudulant.

There is a thread about it on the computer/internet forum and search for it could enlighten you as to the ways of british computer misuse act

See here for previous discussion (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=207868)

You have been warned! good luck

Quincy M.E.

7th Jun 2006, 08:52

Roger that. I was not endorsing the practice. :ok:

tired-flyboy

7th Jun 2006, 08:55

Quince

Didn't think so, just thought i'd mention a point i remember reading about ages ago.

God i hate days off, i'm bored!!!! :ok:

Quincy M.E.

7th Jun 2006, 08:58

Im the opposite: I love days off as I am bored when I am at work! Luckily my boss can't see me wasting time on pprune all day.

Still, only 3 and a bit months till I set off for Hurn! :)

Messi

7th Jun 2006, 13:29

I would never endorse the use of other peoples unprotected wireless connections. At the same time, however, if someone is daft enough to not protect their connection, they aren't likely to catch you! :E

Sorry 'bout that, just thinking out loud. I should prob stop doing that...

Roni f

7th Jun 2006, 18:38

A word of caution, using someone else's wireless network can be seen as fraudulant.

thanks for the tip tired, however i would never endorse the fraudulent use of such systems i simply ment that a number of the B&Bs have wireless connections which are part and parcel of the rent.

So all you guys out there having sleepless nights about the thought of such fraud rest easy :ok:

Cheers Roni

dbounford

7th Jun 2006, 18:43

Got any names of the B&Bs which have wireless access? Or just any B&Bs you can recommend?

Roni f

7th Jun 2006, 19:08

db

you are trying to get accomodation at the worst possible time just now not just with the summer bookings but there is also a jahovas convention of 10000 on down here for a couple of weeks.

here are a couple you can try but not sure how much help it will be au levent, ravensbourne, the strand, clematis, the oasis and seaway all on westby road

cheers Roni
good luck will see ya at new place :ok:

simoncooldude

9th Jun 2006, 14:32

Ahh, I'll just pinch the parents' internet access, will be living at home (which makes life a hell of a lot easier). I'm only about 3 miles away from the college here, just so thankful that they decided to plonk the national college at Hurn!

Yeah, summertime is a bit of a tricky one to find free spaces down here, anywhere! Hopefully the majority of people will clear out by the time you all come down though!

Roni, 10,000 Jehovas?? where are they all going, some kind of convention at the BIC? I didn't hear about that!! Yet more people down here during the summer... marvelous :)

Si

Roni f

10th Jun 2006, 22:21

hi si

lucky man living so close could have done with that myself i beleive, dont quote me on this, that the above mentioned are congregating at Kings park and using Bournemouth football park

cheers Roni

simoncooldude

12th Jun 2006, 21:00

That's not too bad then! Doesn't clog up the town centre. Whenever there's conventions down there, the whole place just grinds to a halt!
Are you still at the college then Roni, or are you based down here now? Or just staying in Bournemouth? Sorry for being so interrogative, don't mean to be!!!
Si

Roni f

12th Jun 2006, 22:19

hi si

no problem yes still at the college trying to work my way through one thing i would say though to all the future tatc's is that you have no idea how hard it is to get through the college until you get here be prepared to work for your dream, it is not an option not to.

Cheers Roni

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

13th Jun 2006, 21:49

If its only for note taking then its really not worth it. Unless you can type 80+ wpm.

notes are normally made using the handouts (as they are done on powerpoint - they print them off in handout format with note space at the side).

Handouts! How things have changed. In the 70's, the only handouts you could hope for were the UK Air Pilot (the weight lifter's friend), the ANO (1968, as amended) and the MATC. (OK, OK; tell that to kids today and they won't believe you!)

GBZ