Trans-Atlantic position reports

[xfeed]

Hello everyone,

I am curious about the position reports that are given on HF over the Atlantic. When giving a report on, for example 5050N, do you call to report that position just after passing or is there a certain time afterwards (i.e. 10 minutes after)?

Also, when traveling from Europe to North America on a track and reach, for example DENDU (a location at the RVSM transition line) how do you all transition from RVSM NATS to ICAO? For example, you are cleared to Track Charlie on FL340 to Baltimore. You step climb to FL350 and FL360 (assuming clearance to do so) while over the NATS RVSM area. I assume that prior to DENDU, or any other transition point, you must either descend to FL330 or climb to FL390, correct?

One final question: why do all of you set your transponders to 2000 at a certain point over the Atlantic?

I appreciate any reponses you may have.

Cheers,

xfeed

NB I am a lowly PPL holder with ambitions of one day flying the big iron, for those wanting more info about me.

[Bealzebub]

A position report should normally take the format of giving your present position (or last required reporting position) the time you are at or have crossed it. This followed by your flight level, then your next reporting point and estimated crossing time, followed by the next position only. For example if you have just crossed 51 North 20 west it would be :
"Skyways 123, position 51 North 20 West at 1131, Flight level 360. Estimating position 52 North 30 West at 1225, 52 North 40 West next."

The report should be made at the point of crossing the waypoint or shortly thereafter. Sometimes the volume of traffic and the reception quality may cause significant delays in the reporting process but it should be made as soon as it reasonably can.

NATS airspace is often boundaried on both sides of the atlantic by RVSM airspace so the transistion is a bit of a non-event. When travelling westbound into Canada the domestic airspace (Gander) is mainly controlling one way transatlantic flow. There is not a lot of two way traffic at the busiest times of day or night nor a vast amount of domestic traffic to co-ordinate with. As such what normally happens is the flight will contact a VHF radio station (Gander) at position 50 West who will in turn pass it on to a Gander radar controller for squalk issue and positive radar identification. What then usually happens is that the flight is given a direct routing to the next or subsequent sector. Any requested level changes are often carried out at this time as well.

As the North Atlantic is not a radar environment the transponder code 2000 is set so that it doesn't cause any confusion on the other side of the Atlantic. It is clear that an aircraft with 2000 set hasn't yet been assigned or given a new code. 2000 is set at a convenient time when the aircraft has left the control of the outbound radar sector. There is no set point as such.

[PNH2ATL]

You also include your fuel remaining and if on a random track the winds and temp at the mid point between fixes.

[tired]

You only include your fuel remaining if you're American, (possibly Canadian, too - can't remember) - the rest of the world doesn't do so. ;)

[xfeed]

Thanks everyone for your replies.
"NATS airspace is often boundaried on both sides of the atlantic by RVSM airspace so the transistion is a bit of a non-event."
Are you saying that an immediate transition to ICAO does not need to occur at the RVSM transition line? This has always confused me because it is hard to find clear information about ICAO / RVSM transition. Just out of further curiosity, if you were flying the NATS at FL360 and needed to be at either FL330 or FL390 over America but your aircraft was not able to climb the additional 3000' wouldn't you burn more fuel having to descend to a lower level?
Cheers!

[Strepsils]

Are you confusing NATS - National Air Traffic Services with NAT - North Atlantic Track? RVSM is not a NATS invention, it is in use in various pieces of airspace all over the world. There is no NATS to ICAO transition, above F290 to F410 (or thereabouts) is RVSM in the whole North Atlantic region.

Domestic on both sides of the pond will climb or descend you as they see fit. If it suits them then they will leave you at whatever level you are at.

[Intruder]

You only include your fuel remaining if you're American, (possibly Canadian, too - can't remember) - the rest of the world doesn't do so.
You include fuel remaining if your company requires it and you don't have ACARS. Gander/Shanwick relays the report to the company.

[Phil Squares]

better yet, have CPDLC/ADS-B and you log on and enjoy the ride without having to bother with HF position reports.

[Rainboe]

<You include fuel remaining if your company requires it and you don't have ACARS. Gander/Shanwick relays the report to the company.>

Many airlines have ACARs and specifically don't pass on fuel reports. During flight with BA, it is absolutely nobodies business but the flight crews how much fuel is on board at fuel checks. This is the American thing of having some guy sitting thousands of miles away making decisions about your flight! If any different landing destination or routing is required, the Captain will always be 'requested' if he can manage it, within standard company fuel policy. I don't know how the mystical 'Dispatcher' was allowed to get so much power over American aeroplanes- the Captain is the only one fully responsible for the safe conduct of that flight- I would have told the guy 'you want control?- you come here and fly the darn thing!'.

[overstress]

2000 is set at a convenient time when the aircraft has left the control of the outbound radar sector. There is no set point as such.

I thought it was 30mins after entering Atlantic airspace :confused:

[Intruder]

During flight with BA, it is absolutely nobodies business but the flight crews how much fuel is on board at fuel checks. This is the American thing of having some guy sitting thousands of miles away making decisions about your flight! If any different landing destination or routing is required, the Captain will always be 'requested' if he can manage it, within standard company fuel policy. I don't know how the mystical 'Dispatcher' was allowed to get so much power over American aeroplanes
It's not a matter of "power," and neither does it pass control to the dispatcher. It is a matter of compliance with FAR 121.535c:

(c) The aircraft dispatcher is responsible for--
(1) Monitoring the progress of each flight;
(2) Issuing necessary instructions and information for the safety of the flight; and
(3) Cancelling or redispatching a flight if, in his opinion or the opinion of the pilot in command, the flight cannot operate or continue to operate safely as planned or released.

Also, a timely re-analysis and redispatch from a savvy dispatcher may obviate the need for an untimely divert in the case of a wind bust or reroute that burns more fuel than planned. Since those of us flying the Jurassic Jets don't have the luxury of instant weather updates via ACARS, HF comm may be the only way to receive timely updates from the dispatcher.

[rab-k]

Rainboe -

You'll find that unlike the BA and other European carriers who have a Flight Operations Officer doing the 'backroom stuff', the US equivalent is a Flight Dispatcher, who unlike their European counterpart, is not only trained to a standard set by the FAA, but is also Licensed by the FAA and has a legal responsibility for the aircraft and occupants almost on a par with the Flight Crew.

Although on the face of it doing the same job, they do differ as to license and legal aspects.

Take a trip to the Flight Ops, Crewing & Dispatch Forum and pop a suitable question should you wish to find out more.:)

[411A]

I would suspect that if a UK licensed carrier had a dispatch requirement much the same as the USFAA system, the nonsense of having an engine failure/shutdown upon takeoff (LAX, BA) then flying all the way to the UK (BA) would be sincerely frowned upon...and rightfully so.

[xfeed]

Thanks everyone for your responses.
Are you confusing NATS - National Air Traffic Services with NAT - North Atlantic Track? RVSM is not a NATS invention, it is in use in various pieces of airspace all over the world. There is no NATS to ICAO transition, above F290 to F410 (or thereabouts) is RVSM in the whole North Atlantic region.
Domestic on both sides of the pond will climb or descend you as they see fit. If it suits them then they will leave you at whatever level you are at.
Strepsils, I didn't mean NAT / ICAO transition but rather a RVSM / ICAO transition. For example, you leave the UK for east coast America (Baltimore, perhaps) and you are given FL340 as your initial flight level out of EGLL. You are cleared to the Track-C and you step climb to FL360 during the Atlantic crossing. Knowing in America that west bound flights above FL280 are 310, 350 and 390 I am wondering where do you begin your climb/descend from FL360 over the Atlantic to 350/390 in America? Looking at NAT charts doesn't make this point clear to me.
Cheers!

[Hold West]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Strepsils, I didn't mean NAT / ICAO transition but rather a RVSM / ICAO transition. For example, you leave the UK for east coast America (Baltimore, perhaps) and you are given FL340 as your initial flight level out of EGLL. You are cleared to the Track-C and you step climb to FL360 during the Atlantic crossing. Knowing in America that west bound flights above FL280 are 310, 350 and 390 I am wondering where do you begin your climb/descend from FL360 over the Atlantic to 350/390 in America? Looking at NAT charts doesn't make this point clear to me.
Cheers!

RVSM has been implemented and in effect in the domestic US airspace for some time now - no transition required! Westbound even flight levels, eastbound odd flight levels up to FL410 is the same as in oceanic airspace.

[Hold West]

2000 is set at a convenient time when the aircraft has left the control of the outbound radar sector. There is no set point as such.

I dunno how they do it in the Atlantic, but in the Pacific we instruct aircraft to squawk 2000 at the time we terminate radar service outbound.

[xfeed]

Thanks for that Hold West; I wasn't aware of that. So is there a 2000' separation as in UK or still 4000'?
Cheers!

[meatball]

At my company we set 2000 30 minutes after the ETOP entry point. We re-set a specific code at the request of the controlling dependency when we enter their sector, usually on VHF only. All this is outlined on the typical Jeppesen Atlantic Orientation Chart 1 and 2, so check it out.

[Intruder]

I am wondering where do you begin your climb/descend from FL360 over the Atlantic to 350/390 in America? Looking at NAT charts doesn't make this point clear to me.

Where an altitude transition must be made, it is usually done when you are talking with a controller who has radar, and at or inside the country's FIR boundary. This is also true for the one-way North Pacific (NOPAC) routes, where separation is 1000' and all traffic is in one direction. The lines of demarkation are on the IFR charts.

If traffic is light and/or there are no immediate conflicts, ATC may delay the altitude change until the airplane is actually near or over the coast.

[411A]

Some may wonder...why code 2000 in oceanic airspace?
Well, it dates from rather long ago...early sixties.

With the FAA...

When transponders were first introduced, they were of the 64 code variety, IE, the last two digits were always 00.

So, aircraft climbing to an enroute altitude below FL240 (which was the base of the positive control area (class A airspace for the younger folks), were assigned code 1100.
This was piston, turboprops (DC6/7's, Constellations, or Lockheed Electra types).
When reaching their assigned cruising altitude, these same aircraft were changed to code 1000, until the next ARTCC boundry was reached, then a different code was assigned.
And so it went, from ARTCC boundry to the next, where a different code was assigned at each boundry change.

Alternatively, those aircraft that were cleared to a level above FL240 (jets), were assigned code 2100 during the climb, then code 2000 upon reaching their assigned cruising level.

So, it was a natural progression to expect code 2000, for those aircraft in oceanic airspace, where no radar contact could be expected, as they were mostly jets at that time, as the piston transports had been reassigned to shorter routes.

And, now you know...!

[Hold West]

The function codes, as they are called, are still on the books. The FAA's rules can be seen here (http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0502.html#5-2-6).

Back in the bad old days, transponders included sensitivity settings as well - ATIS broadcasts included instruction such as "departing aircraft squawk 1000 low" the indicate low sensitivity.