Downwind R/T Call

[fireflybob]

I always thought that the "Downwind" call when in the circuit should be made abeam the Upwind end of the runway.

At a recent seminar it was stated that the Downwind call could be made anywhere between the Upwind end and the Downwind end of the Runway - anything after that was "Late Downwind". This is in the context of airfields with A/G or AFISO rather than ATC. Has this changed been incorporated in any official document?

I have my own views on this "improvement" - any comments?

[DC10RealMan]

I agree with Bob. I learnt to fly 25 years ago and I was always told to call "downwind" abeam the upwind end of the runway and still attempt to do today.

[Talkdownman]

MATS Part 1 (CAP493) states that "Aircraft reports on 'downwind' leg when abeam upwind end of the runway" (You will need to refer to the diagram). So that position is where ATC expects the downwind call to be made. ATC therefore similarly expects that pilots should expect other pilots to make the downwind call when abeam upwind end of the runway. Making the downwind call when abeam upwind end of the runway facilitates rapid visual acquisition by all parties ensuring early separation maneuvering.
MATS Part 1 (CAP493) states "Aircraft reports 'Late downwind' if it is on the downwind leg, has been unable to report 'Downwind' and has passed the downwind end of the runway".
I hope that your reported comments were not heard at an instructor's seminar. This is hardly an improvement if CAA policy for aerodrome FIS and A/G differs from ATC. Fireflybob, are you going to let us know your views, then, and the source of this 'advice'?

[fireflybob]

Talkdownman, yes it was at an instructor's seminar and it was the gentleman from the CAA that said it!

A comment from the floor was what happens when an aircraft cannot make the call Downwind (due to other R/T) and then when he is about to make the call lafter, the aircraft behind (correctly) makes the downwind call! Former aircraft then calls "Downwind" giving the impression that he is behind when he is in fact ahead!

[Talkdownman]

I agree with the concerns from the floor at the seminar, and sadly that is just what happens, creating confusion amongst A/G operators, FISOs and ATCOs. Such ill-advice heard at instructor seminars is very disturbing. I witness, from various perspectives, some worrying actions made by aircraft commanded by some instructors and really begin to question some of their ATS knowledge and traffic-pattern teaching. There is only one physical location for a useable Downwind Report and that is abeam the upwind end of the runway. This is, of course, assuming that the aircraft has actually overflown the geographic downwind position and not cut inside it as many do. If the reporter cannot 'get in' on the RT then the only alternative can be a 'late' downwind.

[Neptune262]

Reading the MATS Part 1 text as you have quoted,then the advice given at the seminar is correct.

MATS Part 1 (CAP493) states "Aircraft reports 'Late downwind' if it is on the downwind leg, has been unable to report 'Downwind' and has passed the downwind end of the runway".

Therefore between upwind end of runway (prefered point of reporting "downwind") and the downwind end of runway, report can be "downwind."

After that point "late downwind" must be used.

Unless I am now confused!!!

[happ1ness]

Latest Cap413 Ch3 page 8
Aircraft reports 'Late downwind' if it is on the downwind leg, has been unable
to report 'Downwind' and has passed the downwind end of the runway.
Just thought we'd better see what it says in CAP413 latest edition 16 just issued. Must admit I had always thought once past abeam the upwind end of runway a late downwind call was what is required.
Reason I thought CAP 413 should be looked at with all new pilots hopefully reading it in preparation for FRTOL licence ?

[Talkdownman]

between upwind end of runway (prefered point of reporting "downwind") and the downwind end of runway, report can be "downwind."
.................which is hardly a precise position, rendering it difficult for the ATSU operator and pilots to locate aircraft and to ascertain any sort of sequence. Something for the CAA Chief RTF Examiner (Mr M.G.) to sort out, I feel.

[Spitoon]

Maybe it's time to come back to the real world. Downwind calls should be made when the aircraft is abeam the upwind end of the runway - hardly a precise position either. And it's not supposed to be. It's an indication of where the aircraft is in the visual circuit. Even if it was a precise position, there are countless reasons why it might not be possible to make the call at that point. So let's get away from disecting each word in a book that is largely intended to be guidance and putting our own interpretation on it. If you want to talk about law, go read the ANO.
As to the original question, as far as I know, nothing has changed. Although abeam the upwind end is the ideal place to make the call, the pilot can call downwind anywhere along the leg if the call could not be made at the ideal position - where it becomes "late downwind" is a matter of pilot judgement. It's always been like this. Perhaps what was behind the comment at the seminar was that it's not a good idea to call downwind if you're actually turning base or whatever.

There is no difference between how calls should be made whether the aerodrome has an ATC, FISO or AG comms service or, come to that, the pilots are using SAFETYCOM (in the UK). But what you, as a pilot, get back is very different!

[2 sheds]

Downwind calls should be made when the aircraft is abeam the upwind end of the runway - hardly a precise position either. And it's not supposed to be. It's an indication of where the aircraft is in the visual circuit.

How is "abeam the upwind end of the runway" on a downwind leg not, in effect, a precise position?

[Whopity]

Downwind is a Leg in the circuit and whilst I would agree that the correct place to make the Downwind radio call is abeam the upwind end; anywhere on the Downwind leg is Downwind.

The terms Late Downwind and Short Final(s) had joined the ranks of calls regularly heard but not defined anywhere. The UK Phraseology Working Group were asked to review the use of some of these calls and rather than totally opposing them, agreed that there would be more merit in defining an area where they could have some useful meaning. The group agreed that the Downwind call should be made abeam the upwind threshold however it could occur up to but not beyond the landing threshold thereafter, it really was Late Downwind. Its been in the book (CAP413) for about 4 years now.
Downwind is not a precise position but, by defining which half of the Downwind leg traffic is on, may aid controllers to identify traffic. It should be of no consequence to FISOs or A/G ops as they are only there to pass information and have no power to control airborne traffic.

[Spitoon]

In reply to sheds, it's hardly precise because it depends how wide the circuit is, how much the pilot can be bothered to turn his head, how much yaw the aircraft has got on........

Now 2.2D one dot left of the loc and on the glide is what I would be more inclined to call precise!

[Squadgy]

by defining which half of the Downwind leg traffic is on, may aid controllers to identify traffic. It should be of no consequence to FISOs or A/G ops as they are only there to pass information

Surely though it is of consequense to FISOs as in order to provide accurate TI it is benefical to know which aircraft is reporting 'downwind' and which 'late downwind'. Whilst, as you say, FISOs can't control airborne traffic the expectation is that we will advise on how many aircraft are ahead of an ac in the circuit.

[Talkdownman]

Squadg is right. FISOs have a duty of care to be able to find out where the flying machines are in order to provide effective traffic information to enable pilots to attempt to position themselves intelligently within the aerodrome traffic pattern in order to obviate mid-air collisions in the interests of a quite a large number of people, precise or otherwise..........