Emirates EK201 to JFK - 3 Man crew again!

[Zomp]

I just read JFK is again 3 crew only, latest DEP is at 0811 local time, after that is discretion.
Hope you guys don't go into discretion out of home base, because then they have to revert to 4 man crew.
I've never seen the flight leaving on time, they basically plan us in discretion.
keep discovering

[birdieonfirst]

Guys!

For those of us "fortunate enough" to be employed by the great airline Emirates...

As last year, we are now moving into the summer schedule for EK201 with a 3 man crew again. (Would you :mad: believe it?) Our great (and invisible boss) ED has somehow found it in himself to sign a memo where it is stated that if we go 11 mins past sched dep time, we will have to go into discretion to get the flight legally off the ground. Can you believe this? How many times have you been told by the dispatcher that "We are just waiting for 40 connecting pax from Dhaka captain" and there by leaving some 15 - 30 mins late? I do not have the statistict for EK201 (does anyone?), but my guess is that half of the flt's leave more than 10 mins late. This means that Mr. ED on behalf of our superb management expects us to use discretion "on a regular basis" to get the flight out of DXB. In my book discretion is used if enroute or downroute it becomes necessary to recover the flt back to DXB, NEVER out of DXB. Do you follow me this far?

I remember "we" put ourselves in this somewhat delicate situation last summer when the FO and augmenting captain decided to offload themselves because they did not want to go into discretion. BUT the operating captain decided to continue and waited for replacement crew. Believe it if you can:eek:

My suggestion is as follows: Let's all do the 8/11 walk

What I mean is:
- Call dispatch when you get to CBC to let them know that you HAVE TO depart before 0811, or you can not operate the flt
- When you get to the A/C let the dispatcher know that you HAVE TO depart before 0811, or you can not operate the flt
- When you pass dep time of 0800 let the dispatcher know that he WILL HAVE TO close the flt and let the 40 connecting pax form Dhaka stay in DXB
- OR do the 8/11 walk. Ie get out of your seats, pack up and go home!

But guys, please let dispatch know what your plan is in advance, and please strike an accord with your fellow flt deck crew members as soon as you get to CBC. We all walk!

Mar Salaama,

:ok: BirdieOnFirst

[Zomp]

Dear Mr. Ed aka TCE, TCAS and TCM (murray)
I promise from the bottom of my heart I will nevva evva go into discretion out of DXB under no circumstances.

[specialrider987]

I have no reservations about no discretion. NOT a SINGLE MINUTE with this flyboy. Put that in your shisha and smoke it mon...

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Whats the Summer block time, and is it accurate??

[Muttley Crew]

Sounds like you guys are not exactly known for your discretion.....

So what is the difference in summer/winter block time that makes it okay to plan 3 crew?

It must be like a swing from 100kt headwind to 100kt tailwind, shaving off 4hrs of flight time... what are you lads whinging about?!?!?! :E

The FOM doesn't say you can't use discretion out of Dubai. I think it used to, though, or was that just something I dreamed up once in some wonderful fantasy..???

[Outta Heresoon]

Discretion as I know it is: after taking into account all the facts and information available you, you forsee no detrimental impact on safety, and believe the flight can continue without compromise.

It's one thing if you have been on duty a significant amount of time and have virtually completed the original itinary and are just trying to terminate the flight with the least detrimental impact on the operation due to unforseen delays.
It's completely another to depart home base with a 13hour plus time to destination. I hardly could see someone re-evaluating their decision to commence the flight to JFK utilising the "discretion" card, and then divert into Gander because at the "planned" duty's expiration time you deemed it unsuitable to continue.
Let's get real. For those that depart DXB using "discretion" you have already made up your mind you will arrive in JFK. In reality you have probably not reasonably taken into account the other crew members (cabin crew included), and in all likelyhood have an alternate agenda (overtime perhaps??).

If it's 8am. Happy flying:) I'm not clarvoyant enough to try it after 8:11 though.

[radnav]

Be warned gents, while its easy to talk tough here, I would almost guarantee that the first Commander to walk off the flight at 0811 will be hung out to dry, keelhauled no less, and definately NO Bonus next year :} .

Unfortunately it is legal to use discretion departing Dubai and unless there is a Meteor shower forecast to hit JFK at your ETA then your going to be standing on very thin ice with this management.

Best idea is to just blame the F/O entirely and tell AAR that modern day CRM just took the final decision away from the Commander entirely.....:E :p :D

[uplock]

http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/michelin.gifOnly thing I have scene more rubbery than Flight Time Limitations in Emirates has been the Michelin Rubber Manhttp://www.grudge-match.com/Images/michelin.gif

A Variation is a normal Flight Time Period stretched now with Discretion on top of a Variation you are stretching something that has all ready been stretched.....usually something breaks when this happens however the commercial reality in EK is that FTL are applied in a way that would make the Rubber Man proud.

Probing deeper you can explain EK Senior Management's lack of enthusiasm to apply FTL's as they are inversely related to the size of the numeration package that all receive by coming in under budget.

[pissedoffpilotek]

just look at the portal..over the last month half of the flights departed after 0811. EK are really taking the piss once again.
If one of us has a prob enroute are the company going to turn around and say "its ok...we planned you into discretion, we'll support your actions" or will it be " well sorry you're fired, you should know that you can't depart knowing you were planned into discretion. what were you thinkng"
the other option is take 6 tonnes extra and go high speed then there is no problem.
EK 201 in theory has priority with atc, however they don't seem to know it. last time I operated 201 we had a taxying time of 27 mins...
Next they will combine the patterns and give us 18hrs in New York.
keep discovering.

[Zomp]

Last year I asked for a 4th pilot, was told there was none, so we all went home. The company knows they can't force you to go, if they would have punished me I would have seen them at an american or european court. The company said latest DEP time is 0811 what else you need to decide to go home? A FTL limit is like max EGT you don't go over it.

[Keith Discovering]

Absolutely correct Zomp.

Even if you get the "so you're telling me you won't go into discretion" pressure from the SMNC (who all have an expectation BTW, for you to use discretion), or the "I'll put us on a conference call with TCAS & BM"; don't buckle.

Get another FO or go home. You've got another two pilots who should be backing you up on this.

Remember it's called "CAPTAIN'S DISCRETION" for a reason. LL will back you on this. No one else has the responsibility to go into discretion apart from you. If you F$$K up because you have, do you really think the management will back you up?

I'll leave that answer open.........

[mckaj]

Well Zomp we should all be like you and get off at 0811!!!!!! But the honest truth is that we as pilots are our own worst enemy. We are wankers and scared of TCAS and little ED.

Like TCAS puts it: "we are just trying to keep you legal guys". Bull and crap. The truth is that EK push push push and push and they get away with it because 90 % of the pilots are scared to speak up.

Take for example the ICN flight with 2 crew in the winter. It is illegal as F... Who has so far parked it in Seoul ??. Flight time 10:20 with CI999 and low level. Taxi out 17 min and taxi in 8 min. Max FDP 11:30. We still fly it and Tcas and little ED know it.

We should all pitch in and help when things occasionally goes wrong and we need to use discretion but if EK uses discretion in their planning like the 201 and 322 something is wrong and it has to be stopped.

[mckaj]

Keyword: "I am not rested to go into discretion"

SMNC/TCAS/LITTLE ED can never question that without pushing the ligallity!!!!!

[Uplink]

Just a thought about discretion.

Am I right in thinking that every discretion report will be audited and eventually seen by the GCAA. Therefore, as the GCAA are starting to get fairly rigid in their rules. The idea would be to continually subject a discretion report for this flight.

What this will create is a false schedule for EK. Therefore forcing the EK to make the flight schedule legal. In Europe if any flight continually went into discretion then the ruling CAA would ensure the scedule would be changed to a more accurate one.

So my advice would be to do the flight and subject the discretion report. It is totally legal out of DXB. This way no one has to skate on thin ice.

[Zomp]

Uplink,
it's you discretion, they will not punish you, if a few 201 get cancelled they will change it to 4 crew.
But I understand that your way is a good excuse for not sticking your head out, let the others do the job.

[mckaj]

So true Zomp!!!!

This place is not europe and I don´t trust GCAA.

[Vorsicht]

This is a fairly easy one guys. Don't play the discretion card. Just inform Ops when you reach CBC that if you go past 8:11 you will be waiting for another pilot in order to comply with FTL's. If they can't find another pilot it is now their problem. Cancelling a flight should never be an issue. Unless of course they don't have any standby coverage. And who's fault would that be? Not ours. Pretty hard to pin the blame on us if it is shown that the flight was cancelled due to lack of standby availability.

I agree with zomp. You may get a fair amount of pressure over the phone, but nothing will happen from a disciplinary point of view. Believe me these guys have been in court in the UK so many times now for unfair dismissal, they will not go down that road again. Unless they change the FOM, Captains discretion is just that. I doubt that the company would win that one even in a Dubai court.

I personally know a captain who refused to go into discretion on his very first flight as captain here. What was the outcome? They changed his crew onto another flight. No tea and biscuits. These guys will try and bully you into doing it, but in the end they are always going to back down, provided you have your facts straight.

Remember always, it is their business and operational plan that assumes the risk of cancelled flights. They accept the rules and publish them in the FOM. It is up to us to apply the rules, and up to them to deal with the disruption that it causes. Don't forget also that this is a direct product of the companies deliberate decision to operate with insufficient pilot numbers to meet the operational plan. All of this is of their own doing, and it has been going on for years. They know the risk, they accept it. It is not for us to put our licence on the line in order to try and make their flawed operational plan work.

The seoul case is an example of bad planning, but also a situation where additional crews are not available, so the only option is discretion or cancelling the flight. This in my opinion where discretion is meant to be used. Not out of Dubai where extra crew SHOULD be available.

[Toad Hall]

I can't believe they are doing the 3 man JFK again, last summer the times i flew the 201 it never left on time. I would be suprised if they can average a 30 minute delay this summer with the state of the airport. I think it will be hard to get the F/O's to do the 8/11 walk with their upgrades just around the corner however from a legal point of view you are on solid ground. The FAA would just love to hear about such incidents.
I thought ED might be different but he seems to have the robotic tendencies of TCAS et al.

[readywhenreaching]

In the light of the coming 205/206 service to JFK via HAM, does any of you have any knowledge wether there will be a crew change at EDDH ?

Both 773ERs will meet there at neighbouring gates and do have nearly similar STA´s and STD´s...

[Zomp]

TCE=TCM=TCAS=TCK just TCM is still only a DEC but with high ambitions

[ruserious]

I would bet HAM-JFK will be operated the came as SIN-MEL etc, not with a heavy crew

[what_goes_up]

ruserious
Why would you need a "heavy crew" on a max. 8 hours flight?

[Muttley Crew]

I would bet HAM-JFK will be operated the came as SIN-MEL etc, not with a heavy crew12hr layover at the airport hotel, just like the old Sydney pairing. :ok:

PS are we really operating to a place called HAM??? :=

[popay]

Hi guys I've read the new EU FTL and thought that might be of interest for you at EK as well. I was going over same subject with QR as planning of some flights initially seemed to be far fetched from reality. After having done some research on that, not in my favour, that’s what I’ve found.

4. Operational Robustness
4.1. Planned schedules must allow for flights to be completed within the maximum permitted flight duty period. To assist in achieving this, operators will take action to change a schedule or crewing arrangements at the latest where the actual operation exceeds the maximum FDP on more than 33% of the flights in that schedule during a scheduled seasonal period.

Unforeseen circumstances in actual flight operations - commander's discretion
1. Taking into account the need for careful control of these instances implied underneath, during the actual flight operation, which starts at the reporting time, the limits on flight duty, duty and rest periods prescribed in this Subpart may be modified in the event of unforeseen circumstances. Any such modifications must be acceptable to the commander after consultation with all other crew members and must, in all circumstances, comply with the following: etc…..

Vorsicht, I assume with your comment about no discretion out of base has got its roots in the German Luft B.O. and its comments where lawyers are saying that a company must have standby crew out of base and the discretion out of base isn’t considered as justified and the commander could face possible charges according to the paragraph 58 b of 2 Luft B.O, if I recall it correct.
It must be said that unfortunately there’s no restriction on commanders discretion out of base under UK CAA rules. It’s purely safety based decision.
However it’s still a Commanders’ discretion and it entirely up to him whether to go or not to go for it. I wouldn’t worry too much about disciplinary actions in case he/she doesn't go for it.
Cheers.

[Zomp]

EK201 the 4th left after 0811, EK201 the 7th left at 0905!!! in jan a crew flew DXB-MEL then diverted and flew to MEL duty time was 20 hours.
ALL the captains on those flights were from Australia and are famous in EK.

[gatvol2006]

The BIG picture....who owns the DGCA? Who owns EK? Huh, see a similarity? You think they not in cohoots with each other? You think they don't decide together...heh heh boyz youre fighting a losing battle, and yea I agree with those of you who said 90% of us are losers cause we don't have balls to stick to THEIR rules. ie if you are not up to discretion in DXB then don't do it!

[ruserious]

what_goes_up, re-read what I said. That was exactly my point, we obviously do not need a heavy crew for an 8 hour flight. It was a response to the post by readywhenreaching

gatvol2006, about 6 years or so ago the DGCA changed its name to the GCAA. The GCAA is the local aviation regulator.
The DCA which is chaired by the same person who chairs EK runs the airport, a bit like BAA does in the UK.

Not sure which one you were confusing us with :ok:

[max AB]

Steady Zomp, steady.....you're drifting there mate.

The 201 will operate 3 crew until 33% go into discretion and then EK will say " gee, how about that!" But it has bought time, standard practise, justlike factoring, you can get away with it for a while and it gives breathing space to scheduling.

[what_goes_up]

Apologies ruserious. Jumped in too quickly. :\

[Zomp]

It's always the same w*****s who suck up to the company, the ozzie with the swedish name did already enough damage in recruiting for a decade.

[break dancer]

Discretion....what about the majority of the Indian flights - the scheduled turned around times are way under the Route Manual times, and the ground staff there are told to not worry about the schedule, just follow the standard turn around times, hence you get shafted and need to go into discretion down route.......

[gatvol2006]

Ruserious R U an engineer? R U Australian or Kiwi? One of the pedantics anyway:yuk:

[ruserious]

gatvol2006, not even close. If you are going to make sweeping statements, they really ought to be lucid and unambiguous. Otherwise you stand the risk of someone correcting your ignorance,...... followed closely by you going into deep denial. Are you a Gypo by any chance :)

[radnav]

Well I vote that all the EK 201s will be in future only be Commanded by Austrians.
I'll be following their tracks....should be great fun. :)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Guys

You might want to read a very interesting thread in "questions" "Captains discretion" on pprune (sorry not sure how to copy across). Similar situation about a 3 crew op from UK to Japan. The Commander in question raises some interesting thoughts. :\

[ruserious]

you mean this one http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222744&highlight=captains+discretion

[uplock]

Hey Zomp ....Not True

in jan a crew flew DXB-MEL then diverted and flew to MEL duty time was 20 hours.ALL the captains on those flights were from Australia and are famous in EK.

One of the Captains was from Australia and wrote the rule book in EK on Long haul Operational Flight Time Limitaions in Emirates, and specific Operational plans. Other Captain was not from Australia but would like to be one day......

My view is that the Commercial Department will continue to rule in Emirates until something nasty hapens then the Legal Boys take a microscope to what actually went on in planning and practise. Expecting the GCAA to take an active role in policing FTLs ....nice thought but I have not seen it happening to date

[kingoftheslipstream]

just did my bid for June, and the JFK flights, both of them (201/203) are scheduled to depart DXB 30 minutes later. EK201 goes at 0830 and EK203 goes at 0200 now... this may assist in "on time" departures.

I still won't go into discretion at the start of this, (by EK and GCAA/JAR convention) super-laung haul flight. It would be madness.

[Zomp]

Uplock, the ozziewannabe was deadheading.

[MR8]

Someone made a remark that you won't find a lot of F/O's who will walk away from going into discretion. Just a reminder for those who will be faced with that:

The term is Commander's discretion. Therefore, F/O's should not be really worried about this. The only person who can decide about going into discretion is the commander.

On a practical point of view, this works in both ways:

1. F/O or augmenting crew doesn't want to go into discretion, but has the bad luck to fly with one of the known companymen. If the commander decides it would be ok to continue duty, the F/O has no right to walk of the flight. This would be extremely poor CRM from the Commander though.

2. F/O or augmenting crew thinks it's ok to continue but the commander says 'he' won't go into discretion. This is a no-brainer. The commander takes the decision for the crew, so everyone gets of.


Contacted:

I must disagree with you. I do think 11 minutes will make a difference. It's all about legality and setting a limit somewhere. Otherwise we could continue on and on, let's take another 10 minutes... and well, another extra 5 won't make a difference...
Also, the company is aware of the limitations, and should have crew ready ANYTIME.
How can a captain warn the company in advance, before getting to CBC? He has to consider the rest of the crew as well (including cabin crew), most of whom he'll only see for the first time at the CBC.

FOM:

What disturbes me the most about discretion in our FOM is that it's written to be used as a normal ops thing. In JAR-OPS, this extension is only meant to be used in unforesen circumstances. In my opinion, late connections or late boarding is not an unforeseen circumstance since the company can send the flight away without those passengers. Nothing like that in our FOM though...

MR8

[Alphaprot]

Nothing like that in our FOM though
MR8, could be the reason that we are unable to get our JAR compliant Part A, which is the FOM part, passed by the GCAA

[Maxx Motoring]

Observations:

1. It's common knowledge that these guys are hired at EK because their Western expats who fill a box in the Management Matrix. Nobody faults them for topping off their respective retirement plans.

2. It's also understood that if they won't sign a particular FCI/memo, then the company will just find another expat that will.

3. Given the aviation background and airlines that these guys come from, you know that if they were still flying the line they wouldn't just blindly accept the forced discretion. But what are they going to do, not sign the FCI?

4. The company counts on the pilots never standing up for themselves.

5. Bending the rules will never change until a Western accident investigation team arrives in Dubai to investigate an accident/incident. Hopefully it never comes to that.

6. ED know's that 201 goes late the greater majority of the time. That's why he put the drop-dead time in the FCI. I also think that he's not happy with the forced discretion, but what's he going to do, not sign the FCI?

Conclusion

TCAS and ED need the pilots to stand up for themselves, in the interest of safety. When that happens, they'll in turn, be able to confidently approach their bosses, and fix the manning problem that is flight 201.

[Zomp]

I am sure the FAA is already looking into it :)
1 (800) 255-1111 that's the FAA hotline

[whossorrynow]

In other words, because TCAS and ED don't have the danglys to do their job, the EK flight crew are the only defence against company initiated fatigue issues on ultra long haul flights.

Because TCAS and ED don't have the integrity to do what they would have done at their previous employers, they expect the Emirates flight crews to take 'action', arguably in conflict with an FOM that has been worded to suit the management case.

Yet another sad and sorry mess.

And, by the way, in this case I do fault them for 'topping off their respective retirement plans'.

[Alphaprot]

Difference was in the previous lives they had an Onion.
One thing onions do that is good, is they are experts on the regulations and won't let management get away with bending or breaking them.
Here we have.......

[Zomp]

how about calling SMNC and asking for a 4th pilot? if he provides one you fly if not you go home, so simple is that.

[Fluke]

"I have to say, I do not appreciate having to air our dirty laundry on a public website, however in the absence of any communication forum internally what choice do I have !"

Hmmm. well let see ? A telephone perhaps ?

Point taken though!

[whossorrynow]

Clearly a lot of groundwork has been done by EKL here. And this subject is relevant to all EK flight crew, so wind your neck in Tartan guy.

However 12h50m/3 pilots/2 = 2h08m. Not 1h38m.

But using a rest period of 12h50m this still comes out 2 minutes adrift of the required FTL at 15h08m rather than the required 15h10m.

Looking at the part of the FCI that mentions NAT qualification, the program as published by the office boys allows only 12 hours rest for all 3 crew members, so maxing out at 15h00m rather than the required 15h10m. (12/3/2=2)

The contents of my last paragraph clearly support EKLs case as Emirates have gone into print with a recommended rest pattern that if followed would not meet FTLs.

Is there an unambiguous definition, that favours the company interpretation, of when rest can start and finish? Or a variation that overrides all other factors in favour of the block time/crew members/2?

If not, then EKL seems to have a case.

[popay]

Hey guys, Methinks one has to weigh his decision very carefully unless, of course, being on the war trip with the company and possessed through a burning wish to screw them up any way. If that's not the case, I believe a commander can only judge upon safety of the flight conduction after his check in and assessment of well being of his crew and the whole situation. I wouldn't put too much weight on the delay , yet I'd inform the dispatch of no intention to use my discretion resulting in possible intermediate landing (even if its Reykjavik), provided one doesn't want to use it. It'd be interesting to hear what they say, most probably the flight deck will be replaced. Another possible solution would be to fly faster in order to regain the delay. You guys are flying with a relieve pilot and at least can take rest. We were doing FDP of 13 hours without relieve pilot, three of us dying and fighting sleep during approach. That's soooo useless although legal, if you ask me. Even if there will be 10 pilots sitting in the cockpit for more than 12 hours without rest, all of them are useless. Here we go again money talks, doesn't it?
Best of luck folks.

[uplock]

Hey T.G. get real mate do you work in the office ....better still follow your own advice and see where a phone call gets you.

EK Lawyer was taking this road because taking the official line with the company will get you absolutely no where, that is unless you are Management and on a bonus retainer for increased productivity and other performance related issues that increase your pay packet.

It is going to take a major incident that requires out side and Independent parties to exam our FTLs and how they are carried out before any constructive change occurs.

Commercial Department over rides Flt Ops and Flt Ops is along for the ride.

EK lawyer was making a point and giving a break down example that an outsider can follow and with a bit of luck our senior management.

Have you every tried to have a phone conversation with the D.C.P. on the above subject, or worse had B.M weigh into the conversation? They will give you the short shuffle and quote irrelevant passages and make references to CAP371 that would even have Einstein scratching his head wondering what the hell they were talking about.
Lets see the C.P. was happy to operate DXB-SEZ-DXB for a full season with a 3 crew that did not allow adequate rest, was pointed out on the first flight that the flt did not comply with FTL's...did not see the GCAA get too excited about that one or even our Chiefs.

The DXB-ICN-DXB operated 2 crew requiring discretion to complete the flight, did not here of the GCAA getting excited about that either,( can you see a pattern) sure company after nearly 12 months put 3 guys on the flight however last few weeks some flights back to 2 guys read this weeks company flight safety digest for a more in depth report from a 2 crew.

Hey heres the cruncher all the upper management did not see any problem with the "factoring" debacle funny how the UK CAA saw differently and that camel came back to Dubai this month.

Our FTLs are all most a replica of the UK CAA CAP371 , the most honest answer you will get will be from that part of the world. Unfortunately you will find them reluctant to weigh in to a slanging match how ever as the holder of a UK License you can make "inquiries" on the legalities of the above issues.

There are a few creative flights on our net work which would not stand up under the review of an Aviation Lawyer, and this will not happen until such time as an incident requires this.

Unfortunately it will take such a review as the initiative will not come from the GCAA or Emirates before the FTLs are correctly applied and followed in this very commercial environment that we operate in.

Still reckon our FTL are rubbery and would make this guy really proudhttp://www.grudge-match.com/Images/michelin.gif

[Alphaprot]

Its simple Tartan Guy, when our management demonstrates even a modicum of honesty, transparency and professionalism, then we will not require a forum such as this to educate each other on legality issues.
Either you don't understand the problems or you are management, who of course are in denial of the problems.

[Alphaprot]

Shrek, you could be right, but which one of them is it, however, layers infers our management have some depth and complexity......

[Clipper811]

What is the feedback from the above named manager after personally flying this sequence of flights?
If he has not flown them then have him do so!
The saying; "a picture is worth a thousand words" might provide valuable input.
Those responsible for decision making and the resultant impact on Safety and Schedule reliability should be flying line Ops at a regular rate. Not so much for flying competency but for reality maintenance. "Paper" credentials are useless without current flight experience and prove nothing more than a learned ability to fog a mirror.
You'd think, aside from being a manager, that a VP/Chief Pilot would remember his early days as a line operator for Emirates. :ouch:

[uplock]

The UK has a web link to a FTL article here (http://www.aatl.net/publications/chirp.htm)which discusses as one of its topics FTLs and has the mechanism in place to make confidential reports

The UK Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme CHIRPS web site is here (http://www.chirp.co.uk/main/Aviation.htm)