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777badboy
5th May 2006, 18:35
THINKS ARE HEATING UP AROUND HERE THESE DAYS DUE TO NO RESPECT OF PILOT AND CHIEF PILOT FROM THE MANAGMENT AND ESPECIALLY THE FLIGHT OPS DIRECTOR WHO IS TRYING TO FORCE PILOT TO FLY TO IRAQ WITH NO PROPER BREIFING AND OF COURSE NO KNOWLEGE OF OPERATION ON THE B 727. THE STORY I HEARD FROM THERE IS THAT 2 CAPTAIN UNDER PRESSURE WHERE SENT TO BAGDAD WITH NO BREIFING OF ANY PROCEDURE USED FOR LANDING WITH THE FOD JUMP SITTING (SUPPOSEDLY TO CHECK THEM ), BARING IN MIND THAT HE IS A COPILOT ON THE 727 WITH A MAXIMUM OF 800 HOURS ON TYPE AND NO EXERIENCE IN FLYING IN BAGDAD. WHILE ON THE SPIRAL DESCENT FROM 16.000 FEET WITH SPEED BREAK AND GEAR DOWN , WITH A RATE OF DESCENT OF 10.000 FEET PER MIN THEY HAD 2 RA AND NEARLY COLLIDED WITH A HELICOPTER. THE CHIEF PILOT WAS DEMOTED FROM HIS POSITION FOR NOT AGGREEING TO DO THE FLIGHT AND NOT LETTING HIS PILOT DO IT EITHER. BUT AS WE KNOW IN ALL COMPANIES WHEN PRESSURE MOUNT AND THE FOD THREATEN YOU TO DO IT OR YOU LOSE YOUR JOB PEOPLE GIVE IN AND DO AS THEY ARE TOLD.
IF ANYBODY HAS ANY INPUT ABOUT THE MATTER AND WHAT CAN BE DONE LEGALLY PLEASE ADVISE

GOOD DAY

Best foot forward
6th May 2006, 11:09
SOunds like you guys are having a Jolley old time of it.

Krueger
6th May 2006, 11:21
Well, why don't you answer with your feet. I know one guy, at least, from DHL who did just that when they were forcing him to fly to Bagdad. Just when he left, a A300 was shot at.

Nowadays, he is flying with Ryainair.

I know, I know ... Jumping from frying pan into the fire, but....:\


Check Six, krueger...

Alvin
6th May 2006, 14:25
Some things don't change - except the names!!!

Best foot forward
6th May 2006, 16:42
Sapco

Theres no excuse these days for not being properly prepared, especially when your flying into known danger zones. You would think that once bitten the parent company would be a little more circumspect. The same level of safety and standard of operation should be universal throughout the group, whether its a DHL owned operation or a subcontractor. Then DHL would be better able to fulfill the requirements of its customer and achieve its aim. Spend monwy on quality rather than glossy corperate posters and images that just make the bosses feel warm and fuzzy.

Ignition Override
7th May 2006, 06:56
Does anybody at the airport have a video of a DHL aircraft operating there AFTER the terrifying return of the A-300 crew with no hydraulics?
Offer military guys a chunk of cash for such a video, with certain buildings in the background and a newspaper, with a recent date in the same video.
Contact DHL's insurance carrier, especially if you have a recent video-but first anonymously tell Upper Mgmt and the aviation "authority" what you will do, and that no briefings are provided.
I can not believe that any civilian aircraft can be insured flights into/from Baghdad, or anywhere else in Iraq or Afghanistan, and that your Chief Pilot has so little backbone and integrity. He appears to have little backbone.:\

watcherhts
7th May 2006, 10:35
After the shooting down of OO-DLL A300, all DHL ops to Iraq were suspended ,but they did keep flying to Afganistan. Last year they started again to Baghdad with another A300, but lost the contract, and have since stopped, as for spiraling descents etc for landing, forget it, SAM's still go mach 2 + and turn faster than a commercial airliner, so unless you've got ECM or flares etc, your taking a risk each time you go there.

Best foot forward
7th May 2006, 13:25
Ithink the technique is to give the sam operator less time to aquire a target and fire the missile.

red i
7th May 2006, 16:18
Manama Bahrain - pilots and flight engineers at DHL Bahrain are facing suspension and possible termination after refusing to fly into Iraq. Aviation managers called a meeting with flight crew members three months ago advising them of the companies intentions to resume operations into war torn Iraq. Pilots were given the assurance that the company would address their various concerns before operations were to commence. They asked for clarification on matters such as safety and security measures and briefings, choice of participation, legality of the operation, personal insurance coverage and monetary issues. The company representatives reneged on their promise to address these issues within the specified timeframe (given by themselves) and thereafter, even when repeated calls were made upon management to do so. DHL Bahrain operates a number of scheduled flights to destinations in and around the Middle East. The company has in recent weeks repainted a number of their now familiar yellow and red DHL aircraft, to an inconspicuous white and grey, expressly for operations into Iraq. A day before operations were scheduled to commence, the Chief Pilot, acting on behalf of the pilots, advised management that they would not participate in flights to Iraq as NONE of their concerns had been officially responded to. DHL Bahrain Aviation Operations Director responded and was telephonically recorded as saying that any pilots/engineers refusing to do the proposed Iraq flights should consider themselves dismissed with immediate effect. As a result, DHL's Chief Pilot has been suspended from all duties pending further action. Flight crews expessed their dismay at the strong-arm tactics employed by DHL management in an attempt to force them into flying to a classified war zone. Pilots are now also taking it upon themselves to get in touch with the relevant authorities to inquire about the legalityof flights operated by aircraft and crew of a contracting state to the US FAA, which prohibits civilian aircraft operating into Iraq. A DHL Airbus was shot down over Baghdad in 2003 but miraculously survived the attack by sheer luck and exeptional flying skills exhibited by the flight crew. The aircraft was severely damaged after a shoulder launched missile struck the aircraft on departure out of the Iraqi capital en rout to Bahrain. DHL suspended all flights into Iraq after the attack.

777badboy
7th May 2006, 17:20
having initially posted the thread i am very happy to see that people are concerne. for the record the chief pilot was suspended from his position because of his refusal to fly to iraq with no preparation. i heard that the insurance policy of the pilot flying iraq and afganistan is dodgy and does not cover them competely. this is a big concerne especialy for a world wide company like DHL.

by the way a captain resigne apparantly because of safety issue?

oh one more question, how did the flight happend if all pilots were together?????? can anyone comment???

Charterbroker
7th May 2006, 23:08
This is a good thread, but as with all rumours, it needs some filling out. As a broker involved in flights to IQ, i would comment that despite the fact that I compete with them they have never actuallY stopped ops into IQ, its been done by third parties for the last 2 years. The move to operate their own flights again must be down to the "relative" improvement of the operating environment form a safety standpoint and the commercial realities that theres no point having a B727 fleet if it sits all day on the ground in DXB and JED. IQ flying is a massive commercial opportunity and they have been paying other people to do it and now they have some major contracts under their belt am not suprised to see white b727s being loaded to go. Surely DHL crew have seen all of this on their doorstep and wanted a piece of the action or are they so distanced from the business they are in that they cant engage get to grips with what wet lease operators have been doing for sometime.? Just some thoughts..

charles lindbergh
7th May 2006, 23:53
it might be true that they want a slice of the cake.
But they dont want to share it with there crews!
They did pay there flightcrew something like 20 euro per day extra when they flew to Iraq before the missile attack.
Also there insurance cover is marginal ,they might have there airframe covered but how about there people!
If you want to send your people to a war zone pay them danger money and give them a choice. as far as i understand the UPS And Fed Ex pilots told there company that they where not willing to fly to these places either!
You cant force people to operate to places like that ,at least not in the western world.
If my company would ask me to go to these places i would tell them where to shove it!
CAL

Ignition Override
8th May 2006, 05:55
:O
I was mistaken about the DHL Chief Pilot, and am glad that he is supporting his pilots.

There is not a doubt in my mind that many Fedex and UPS pilots would volunteer to fly into Iraq, if it could be done safely-I've met quite a number of them. I once watched a Fedex B-727 land with thunderstorms near the airport, in every direction (it looked like a military rescue mission in a movie...). Over 20 years ago on a Fedex jumpseat in Illinois (PIA?), the FE told me that he had flown a C-130 into a Caribbean location, where it turned so hot with ZSUs, that they turned quickly around. Some worked for Evergreen, and possibly SAT, CAT, Bird Air, Air Asia, Air America. If so, these guys sometimes flew into "sporty" situations.

The DHL situation raises "pilot-pushing" to a very dangerous level. What does IFALPA say about it? What are they doing? Except for DC-9s and smaller aircraft, almost everything out there requires hydraulics to move the control surfaces. Even with a good manual reversion, no fuel tanks or engines are missile-proof. How about elevator and aileron control cables?
Are DHL planes certified to fly with an engine blown from the wing? Upper Mgmt.:" Let them use aileron trim...".

Because of these refusals, is it possible that this can somehow help the DHL pilots?

Maybe they should contact (heaven forbid) the press and receive film coverage, without libeling their employer. Publish the names of the managers who are threatening the pilots. It would probably "make good copy" on CNN and Al Jazeera.
Buena suerte, DHL pilots.

Roadrunner
8th May 2006, 12:37
My god, no wonder Willie blew the joint.
Old Jack wouldn't have put up with that s%$#.

This makes the years I spent there look rather tame.
Good luck to the lads. Of course pressure from management happens in varying degrees all over.

Don't suppose it's the same management we had back in 2000.

Start lookin elsewhere sounds like good advice .

There is life after the desert and paying for accomm. and electricity aint all that bad. Go for it..

Cheers.

pingopango
8th May 2006, 13:35
Was enjoying reading this thread and taking the comments on board. The comments about the pilots insurances however have devalued all of badboy777's opinions and now the rest just seems circumspect.

Solid Rust Twotter
8th May 2006, 13:55
Intelligence, insurance and incentive would appear to be the minimum requirement under the circumstances, yet none of them seem to have been provided by the operator. Hanging your danglies over the edge to make someone else rich with no suitable safety precautions or reimbursement is a no go item in my book.

Reimbursement/incentive is negotiable but adequate insurance cover and up to date intelligence and safety procedures should be cast in stone.

misd-agin
8th May 2006, 15:16
After the shooting down of OO-DLL A300, all DHL ops to Iraq were suspended ,but they did keep flying to Afganistan. Last year they started again to Baghdad with another A300, but lost the contract, and have since stopped, as for spiraling descents etc for landing, forget it, SAM's still go mach 2 + and turn faster than a commercial airliner, so unless you've got ECM or flares etc, your taking a risk each time you go there.

It's not to avoid SAM's as much as ground fire (golden BB - it only takes one...). Time exposure is limited and descent is near friendly forces. Much better than being 10 miles from the airport at 3000' and well within small arms range.

Spoke with USAF C-130 friend. Said he'd flown in at night numerous times (early on) and that they'd been shot at each time. Using NVG's and no lights at the time.

ironbutt57
9th May 2006, 06:05
"ol Jack" would have nothing to do with it he was not a DHL employee...charterbroker.....since profits are huge, and the opportunities are so brilliant, why hasn't DHL addressed the concerns of the crews, and made proper provisions to look after them and their families in the event of the unthinkable...previous management would have more likely done so...seems it's gone from being good, to "low ball" the pilots who"queue'd up for the job were under the impression their concerns would be addressed...not monetary demands here mind you, legitimate concerns....

tarik123
9th May 2006, 09:10
Is it legal to operate to an airport that have no approach plates?
is it legal to oprate to an airport that have no navaids working?

What is the MSA, or the missed approach procedure??

what are the procedures if you have an emergency over Iraq?

6000PIC
9th May 2006, 19:57
The question I have , is that if DHL are so eager to operate into war torn Iraq , what are the other cargo operators such as TNT , UPS , FEDEx doing to satisfy their client`s demands , ( US AMC , the numerous embassies , consulates , US Mail , corporate clients ) ... must be a lot of dosh to be made , I suspect the likes of Air Sofia and other Eastern European pilots are doing all the flying , throw in the odd European , Canadian , South African expat pilot , the likes of I admire for sheer guts , flying skill , perhaps less in common sense.
Would being hit twice by a missile , with resulting fatalities finally convince management of the risks ?

Check 6
10th May 2006, 00:59
Here is the link to the Iraq procedures, charts, etc.
http://ramcc.dtic.mil/iraq.htm
The FAA may approve flights into IRAQ if the aircraft are operating in support of the military. See SFAR 77 to 14 CFR Part 91.

Charterbroker
10th May 2006, 12:36
Ironbutt dont know who "ol jack" is but i do know that a company such as DHL as with any multinational global organisation is aware of its responsibilities with regard to its staff and being owned by the german post office tends to focus the mind I would have thought, as they are after all a publically listed company ....ol jack and previous management seem to refer to the old days, but from where i am sitting they werent that much of a competitor in the old days a couple of CV580 and a few metros aint exactly powerhouse stuff...they seem to have a dozen or so planes now on the ramp so seem to be able to hold it all together..we are down here doing our dubai thing, so room for all of us methinks..

777badboy
10th May 2006, 23:49
Maybe they should contact (heaven forbid) the press and receive film coverage, without libeling their employer. Publish the names of the managers who are threatening the pilots. It would probably "make good copy" on CNN and Al Jazeera.


when the sh&*&%* hit the turbofan that is what's going to happen. and a lot of people are going to go down .

i have recieved a few names already but i am not going public yet. hahaha

good day

ironbutt57
11th May 2006, 06:33
Not too sure what your response has to do with the thread "charterbroker" but anyway regardless of past equipment etc..etc.. not involved anymore, but surely previous managers I worked for would have sorted out the issues before ops there would have commenced.. not in contact with these fellows, all I know about it is on this forum, sad to see what apparently has happened to an otherwise fine employer...dont quite understand what the "legal" complaint is...anyway good luck to the boys and hope they get sorted...I'm sure the "wet lease" boys will be happy to operate the flights for them...It was apparent when the 727's arrived on the AOC however, the destinations they would be serving...glad I had the opportunity to leave...not my cup of tea either, regardless of the pay and conditions

Best foot forward
11th May 2006, 11:09
Well Stated SAPCO.

Togalk
11th May 2006, 14:53
The simpliest way to make your case might be to check your insurance coverage. I am sure their precious planes are covered for flying into war zones, but I doubt the personal insurance does. So even if you get hit in the face by some flying glass and it takes your eye out, you (and your family) would be SOL.

thayrd
11th May 2006, 21:10
As taken from the aip for afghanistan:

"gen 0.1.2 Flight safety risks and compliance with AIP Procedures

0.1.2.1 All operators are informed that there are ongoing military operations in Afghanistan and non-military flight operations could be at significant risk. There are continuing reports of indiscriminate small arms attacks on aircraft operating in Afghanistan. Operators undertake flights within the Kabul FIR at their own risk"

I am sure that similar wording applies to the AIP.s for Iraq. just dont have them at hand at present.

"Notam for OAIX BAGRAM

A0198/04-Bagram airfield (BAF). If BAF is under attack remain/attain at or above FL250 and/or outside 15NM of BAF until directed by ATC. Wie until perm".

All companies operating into Afghanistan or Iraq have to sign a statement of release of liability before they can operate.

Interesting?