Operations into Dubai - can they be improved?

[410]

Following on from the Dubai R/T thread, here's a new thread where both pilots and ATCOs can offer constructive suggestions on what could be done - on both sides - to improve on the current situation.

[Mack Tuck]

The answer to this is applicable to Dubai in general, as well as to this thread:- Do it once and do it properly. Problem is it will never happen. The population is growing at a faster rate than the infrastructure can handle. This applies to roads in Dubai and traffic through Dubai Airport. There will be no control over the rate of growth as growth equals cash flow. There are only a handful of really rich families here and between them they control almost everything (certainly everything that matters) so a few delays are of no consequence to them. Dubai is a city of monopolies from Telecoms (shortly to become a duopoly but both owned by the Government) to car dealers (there is only one dealer per brand of car in Dubai, a city of 2.5 million; how many Holden dealers are there in Melbourne?) to airport handling agents; DNATA, 100% owned by Emirates. Couple DNATA's airport monopoly for handling and Dubai's (almost) open skies policy and constant airport works (as they can't get it right) and we have the situation we are now faced with.
What needs to happen is to modulate the traffic flow. Seemingly every few months there are additional minor operators into Dubai, e.g. Air Blue, Shaheen, Air Asia (with 'who knows what' kind of certification and standards) on top of extra Majors like Virgin and Aer Lingus recently.
We need to get the minors out the way of the rest of us at what are well known peak times. This could be achieved by assigning (selling) slots or even introducing accepted noise abatement procedures limiting access for un-hush kitted or Russian airplanes.
Dont hold your breath though.:yuk:

[6000PIC]

DNATA - Doing Nothing At The Airport

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

We need to get the minors out the way of the rest of us at what are well known peak times.

And why exactly should an Emirates aircraft have priority over a Beach 1900 running cargo. Whoever should be number one based on position in the sky and expected performance will be number one regardless how how big they are and what they are carrying. Unless you have VIP status, hate to deflate your bubble Mack but you have no higher or lower priority than any other operator from anywhere east or west, as it should be.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

And for the record I would prefer to work a T154 any day over an A330. Why??? Cos the Tupolev isn't dragging its belly at 10,000ft 65 NM out from the airport screaming for further descent while the sequence turns to hell in a handbasket behind cos everyone else is at a decent height. So don't bag the Russian aircraft. Also for the most part the Russian operators while not always having the strongest of English, try their best to do what they are told, and never get lippy on the frequency when they are told that sorry not everyone can be number 1.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

slot times for everyone.:eek:

its not just the "small" operators that get in the way. just ask the 2330 from the west and 0530 from the east gaggles. you get 35+ EK as well as all the other major operators arriving in a very short space of time with pilots being genuinely surprised/astounded that they have to slow down/hold etc.

also slot depature times so that all those outbounds can get the levels they want instead of the ones that are left over.:ok:

[Mack Tuck]

ANSA,
Should have expected that from an Aussie; the home of protectionism and favourtism and most anal ATC in the world. Guess where all the ATC complaints come from for EK? Australia! And it aint as if the standard of RT/compliance etc from EK aircraft is any different from anywhere else in the world its just that you guys are a nation of complaining gits; get over it.

[turtleneck]

having once been on the other end of the mike, i can consent with both sides. what i see as a big
contributing factor to our problem, is performance differences both in airborne equipment aswell as
in proficiency of it's riders.
the appearence of the flying nintendos had its benefits but also its setbacks. almost all nintendo
trained pilots do (and some can) only fly in managed or open modes. this leads to very inconsistent
flight paths once atc guidance sets in. i have seen anything from 180 to 290kts with 300 to 4000fpm
in tma's and some don't care to fly constant horizontal or vertical speeds during somewhat stricter
atc vectoring and speed control. this screws up sequencing and even leads to ra's. it's not necessary,
even a A330 can do nice continuous descent approaches on a 3deg GP, it just needs a little skill
and training. maybe there's the catch...........
furthermore, in slight disagreement with ansa, i think some aircraft should not operate into airspace
like dxb/sha, at least not at peak hours. it's about performance: there should be a minimum performance
in climb/descent rate and speed, so as not to hold up traffic. but this would be gcaa's playing ground,
there goes the catch again............

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Guess where all the ATC complaints come from for EK? Australia!

perhaps the reason that all the compliants you have about us aussie ATCers is that we dont tolerate stupid pilots who cant carry out basic instructions like make requirements or fail to follow assigned speeds etc. there are others who will let it slide or maybe bitch to the guy next to them about said idiot but we dont.

most anal ATC in the world
the way we work in aus is based on the "best practice" from euro control, teabag land and the land of the septic tanks so if there are complaints to be made about that start with the rest of the civilised world first.

[Mack Tuck]

Don't tell me your government or ATC don't favour QF! Thats a preposterous allegation (and also a complete crock). Best practice? You obviously didnt hear the story about the retiring United pilot who on his last departure from Australia complimented ATC on being the second best in the world. When asked who was the best, the answer was the rest of the world.

[Vorsicht]

As an aussie I gotta say i totally agree with Mack. Australia do have the most anal ATC in the world as well as the wider aviation community thinking that they are the self appointed keeper of worldwide ATC standards. Given that most of the guys operating down there haven't been outside their own backyard, they tend to fairly opinionated as to how the rest of the world should conduct themselves. I know some knobber is going to throw back the old ICAO phraseology bull, but we all know that as an international operator you just develop a generic R/T that's not perfect, but works pretty well everywhere.

I never seem to here from the Russian ATC complaining about the piss poor standard of R/T, maybe that's because english isn't their first language either. Australians on the other hand generally expect everyone else from non english speaking background to be perfectly fluent in the queens english before they sully the golden shores of good old Oz.

At the end of the day, it aint going to get any better, probably worse. It's like the driving in Dubai, get used to it or get off the road.

[Schnowzer]

I don't want to be the knobber throwing back the ICAO phraseology bull.

Whilst the Aussies are pretty anal about some phraseology, it never ceases to amaze me how the operate ULR flights like they are off on a hop around the circuit. "Report Wagga, Wagga!", "Call Headland" etc etc etc. If I lived in Wagga (thank god I don't) or Headland, I might know what the reporting point they are refering to is called.

Unbelievably, I don't sit up at nights memorising beacons, waypoints and reporting points whilst relating them to their geographical positions.......but I know an aussie that does.:8 (Is the float moving?)

Back to the thread, we all need to help each other out, the biggest improvement to Dubai ATC would be to disband centre. The fact that centre control the holds and have zippo ability to sequence aircraft leads to all sorts of problems in Dubai. I believe the key is better control by centre and coordination with Dubai.

How often have you been told by centre, "At Orsar fly 240, slow to green dot and enter a state of suspended animation"? You then get handed off to Dubai, "Direct Ukrim, no speed control, keep the speed up as long as you can!"

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

mack never said that gov there didn't favour QF. but as for atc we favour the a/c who is in front. i dont spin the an12 just to make the almighty EK :mad: number 1 when he should be number 2. in aus we operate as the rest of the world. there are rules to follow and we follow them. if we see a pilot not following the rules we report them. as far as the departing united pilot there are stories like that for every center all over the world so don't cart out that old chestnut.


Vorsicht Australians on the other hand generally expect everyone else from non english speaking background to be perfectly fluent in the queens english before they sully the golden shores of good old Oz.

as i have said in lots of other threads its not the pilots whose first language isn't english that is the problem. as a rule they realise that they have to work at the english phrases and as a result are actually pretty good. its the us/uk/can/sa/aus or those who "think" their english is perfect that are the ones who cause the most grief regarding r/t.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Schnowzer

The fact that centre control the holds and have zippo ability to sequence aircraft leads to all sorts of problems in Dubai.

thanks for you vote of confidence in my lack of ability to sequence.:ok:

we are required to give dubai 10/15/20/30 nm or more depending on who is on app, what rwy in use and how busy they are. thats what we hand off to them. dubai app have instructed us in the center to give the spacing and just leave it at that. we are not allowed to ask for tracking etc as this increases their workload. they dont offer it on many occasions for reason unknown.

anytime you would like to pop into the center and show us how its done that would be great. i look forward to seeing you, just pm me and we can organise a time.
ps bring your atc licence with you and we might even be able to swing it so you can have a chat on the airwaves.:ok:

[sandstorm inferno]

Air Asia

Mack Tuck

Didn't you mean AERO ASIA (Pakistan)? Dont think Air Asia made it this far yet

[Mack Tuck]

Not that it really matters but you are quite probably correct; it just sounds like air asia on the RT. Good conversation so far and to clarify my position I dont think ALL Aussies are w:mad:ers

[Outta Heresoon]

Looks like to me instead of a civilised thread to open lines of dialoge between "ATC" and the "pilot group" this has digressed very quickly to a mud slinging match of soon to be epic proportions. Sorry got to run, I'll finish this later...my kids are fighting...

[Schnowzer]

Ali,

A bite, I knew I'd get one. Some of the geometry and lack of awareness of speed differential displayed by controllers in this part of the world is truly shocking. I didn't say anything about your controlling abilities (you are not paranoid are you?) however you might want to point out to some of your buddies that aircraft have inertia. Typically I end up spaced not 5, 10 or 15nm apart but 7.6,13.3 or 23.9nm. It is not that difficult if you have a basic understanding of lead, lag, pursuit, closure and inertia. I used to do it for a living!

The reason Dubai need the spacings you have described is due to poor airspace design and maybe megalomania. If Dubai controlled the holds they could then arrange what ever spacing they required. Don't believe me go and check out LHR (Lambourne), LGW (Mayfield), MUC (Sauerkraut)..ok I made that one up. You tell me why Abu Dhabi feel the urge to control the busiest airfield in their region and then give them little or no flexibility to manage their arrivals?

Outa, Good spot!

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Schnowzer paranoid? no. you might want to read my post carefully as i never mentioned my controlling ability either. you made that bit up in your reply.
as far as handing off 7.6,13.3 or 23.9nm. im sure that in all these fantastic places around the world the atc are awsome to watch and the pilots are godlike in their ability to do everything perfectally:D but we atc in the middle east are only human and some of the operators are also less then perfect. so if i give dubai 11nm instead of 10 or 23,9 instead of 20 i hope you will forgive me.
but i will offer again as i always would like to improve the way i sequence
anytime you would like to pop into the center and show us how its done that would be great. i look forward to seeing you, just pm me and we can organise a time.
ps bring your atc licence with you and we might even be able to swing it so you can have a chat on the airwaves.

[sandstorm inferno]

Ali Bin Somewhere

so if i give dubai 11nm instead of 10 or 23,9 instead of 20 i hope you will forgive me

I hope this is not a typical ACC standard reply!
Hey, a lost 1 NM or 3,9 NM is extra delay for the next in the queue.
THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH BUDDY.
Can you imagine places like KJFK, KORD, EGLL, EDDF, EHAM wasting all these miles??? You would be fired (or never checked out). Even Zurich ACC is spacing in very very crowded airspace (exactly) 5 NMs.

So back on the horse Ali. Try to tighten up the spacing and you'll get rid of your hold a lot quicker :ok:

[Outta Heresoon]

If I can add my 2 Dhs worth...(5 Dhs with inflation!)

I've seen stellar controlling and I've seen pilots that can manage drag and desent profiles to leave all the non-believers in awe. Considering neither knew squat about the other, to see how a good mesh between them works and brings a virtually constant descent to fruition will bring a tear to your eye. Unfortunately I've also sat on the edge of my seat watching how little understanding of either becomes apparent from pilots I've flown with, and the demonstrated lack of forethought from the other side of the radio that there seems to be no right or wrong.

In support of the arrivals sector about comments from others here, with LHR controllers there are fewer "windows" of altitude and speed on published arrival procedures. Unless there is no traffic and ATC waives some of the restrictions, he knows you will be "here" at this "specific altitude" doing "this speed" without question. You will enter the published hold at the regulated speed. Then it's just a matter of breaking you off the hold and issuing minimal vectors to final, to comply with the tower's spacing requirements. It's the design of the system, not so much the ability of the individual controllers (although they are good!). As has been stated on other threads on the forum, we as pilots are just as quilty of non compliance of "instructions" (note the difference as to ""requests") that throws the "good" controllers for a loop. I also believe there are individuals on the ground here that are struggling with the concept and implementation of the "efficient" side of ATC. Perhaps just through sheer inexperience. The region is not famous for providing a sound "package" anylonger for anyone, so the idea of "skimming the cream off the top" is laughable on both fronts.(they do manage a few golden ones on occaision though. All come here for different reasons).

In many of the airports I have flown to all over the world I find generally the most limiting item in the equation is the regulations the controllers have to follow, with perhaps a smidgon of the controllers lack of appreciation for what the latest generation of aircraft are capable of and the pilot's inability to manage it properly.
Having done a tour of several ATC centers in a couple major traffic zones (and here in DXB too ;) ) I've seen there are always two sides of the story with neither party in hand of all the details of the other.

As you can gather I'm well in support of mutual "Fam" experiences from both sides. It doesn't take much to enlighten either party. Can't speak from ATCO's here but assuming your being squeezed as much as we are (hey it's 2006 in the ME, what's new of late?) you've probably got way better things to do with your very little precious time off than to take a trip again to the airport.
Perhaps the company could give us 2-3 hours "credit" for the experience...
...don't get me going on that "cost neutral" issue. I'd be typing here all night.
...resume's to other carriers that is...

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

sandy
you might like to calm down a bit . ever heard of sarcasm to make a point? the point being if we ALL work together then it will run alot smother. less carry by prima donnas in a busy environment would be a start. just because your number3 in a sequence doesn't mean we hate you:D

yes an extra nm or 3 is an extra delay for the next guy, so when i tell the a/c to turn then he should turn not spend the next 20nm after responding scratching his arse wondering if that call was for him or one of the other 15 a/c in the sequence.

when he is told to slow down he should comply not take 3 reminders to slow down ie slow to 250IAS 20nm later confirm slowing to 250IAS? we are 300IAS confirm you want us slow 250IAS. 20nm later whats your speed? 300ias confirm you want us to slow now? that way we get the 10/20nm etc and you get to land earlier.

you sound like a person of some experience with all things atc so i'll extend to you the same invite i did to Schnowzer. pm me, organise a time and come to the center and bring your licence so you can show us how its done:ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

"KJFK, KORD, EGLL, EDDF, EHAM" Yeah right!! These are airfields that probably have a structured modern Airspace and Air Traffic Management system! How many AN12 freighters, AN124's, TU134's and the like are they trying to sequence in the middle of a an RPT arrival rush where no flow control from adjacent sectors or slot times allows everybody to turn up at once. Add to that adjacent units that for political and other reasons will not enter into any constructive dialogue for ammending and improving the current work practices and vice verca :hmm:
Additionally when you have operators that think they are so important that we should call them three times or more for a level or heading clearance in the middle of a busy sequence then I think an extra mile or 2 isn't bad!

As I didn't go to the school of how to be "Gods gift to the world of aviation" as it appears you must have...I will just keep hoping that the acepting unit will take the odd extra mile! :*

Another quote from your post:
"So back on the horse Ali. Try to tighten up the spacing and you'll get rid of your hold a lot quicker"

All I can say to you is let go of it "buddy" otherwise you will go blind! :eek:

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Schnowzer & Sandy i'm still waiting for you to pm so we can organise your visits!

You both appear to have years of experience in the ATC field at busy centers and maybe thats the sort of experience we need to have showing us how its done.

looking forward to hearing from you:ok:

[Schnowzer]

Ali,

Read who mentioned 'controlling abilities first before you accuse me of making things up! I talked about 'centre' not you, that is why I suggested there might be some paranoia.

Cut to the chase, stop getting into a slanging match and rather than bleating on about me wasting one of my 7 days off this month by coming to Centre for a 'patronising' lesson. I've done the NATS and Eurocontrol versions.

Explain to me why the airspace is designed as it is? Why do Dubai not have control of their holds higher up and how can we increase the flowrate into the airport for when the second runway opens with the capacity increasing stagger?

Schnowzer

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

firstly i work in the center not in dubai app so i can only assume that the comment "The fact that centre control the holds and have zippo ability to sequence aircraft leads to all sorts of problems in Dubai" would be aimed at controllers in the center.

secondaly i am 100% genuine in my offer for you to come on in. i dont do patronising, occasional sarcasm but no patronising. if someone is going to make the effort to come into the center or call then they deserve to be treated as an equal. you have been speaking as a person who knows how it should be done so put your money where your mouth is and come in and show me.

as to why dubai dont control the holds? who would know. they have been told by their managers that they are to hold in only very exceptional circumstances and not for weather. they have told us not to ask for speeds/tracking just give them the required spacing and leave the rest to them. some crews are great and give tracking to us and the sequence works a treat. other crews don't and we watch a/c either track shorteded or given an extra 20+nm to try and make it work. i have lost count of the ammount of times i have had 8+ a/c line astern 10nm trail only to be told by dubai we need 15/20nm now. when asked why the responses have ranged from "we need to get 2 depatures away" to "it might get busy later so just in case":mad: again come into the center when its busy and have a look.

is it a perfect system? far from it. but you can only do what the next sector and the rules allows you to do. and you can only make the sequence work if pilots follow instructions. until the managers in dubai and the center get together and sort out a better system nothing will happen.

if you read my very first post i came up with a really easy solution. slot times. everyone has been saying how wonderful their shiney new planes are so you get a slot time and you fly the a/c to make it. to early? then hold till a slot becomes avaiable. to late same deal:ok:

[Mack Tuck]

Nowhere in my initial post did I mention any kind of favourtism for EK that both ANSA and Ali alluded to. What I did suggest was to reduce the number of smaller operators at peak times by introducing slots; this leaves the Majors all operating aircraft with similar performance (one would assume making ATC's job somewhat easier) during these periods (only really 2300-0100 and 0430-0630 for arrivals). Looks like some common ground after all.:D

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

mack sorry if i was misunderstood. i wasn't alluding that we have to favour anyone. slot times h24 would be great otherwise yes slot times in peak periods would work.

as far as the smaller operators/freighters go they, like the mojors, have reasons they need to arrive in dubai when they do. a slot time for everyone would alieviate alot of the probs. then the mojors wouldn't have to wait for the connecting pax/freight off the minors and all would (hopefully) be happy.

here is another one that has been suggested both here and in the center. seperate arrivials for either dubai/shj or jets/props. as always there would be problems with this as well.

one of the big probs we have now and will always have untill there is some form of enroute flow/slot time is this. 5+ a/c turn up at amoli within 10nm all asking for decent. we need to have 5nm between a/c for decent so that means find 15nm then we have to hand off to dubai 10/20nm. do the math. slot times would solve this. 2/3/4min depending on rwy etc at amoil means unrestricted decent with agreed speed and height requirements along the star.

as everyone else has said(including me) it works elsewhere so why not here?

well 2 reasons i can think of are
1)owner of dubai airport has decreed that its open skies with no restrictions on arrival/depature times and he has final say in the way things are run at his airport.

2)there are alot of operators here who are average at best. at the risk of opeing up a can of worms, as was posted on another thread, in heathrow they allow an extra nm when EK are taking off/landing due to their "flying tecniques". yes there are some great pilots who fly for emirates and other airlinesbut consider this. EK are supposed to be the best in the region and there are something like 100+ other operators who fly here so if heathrow allow 1nm for EK how many min do we allow in a slot time for the various operators here?

oh well slot times would be nice though... we live in hope:ok:

[Nimmer]

Reading this thread and talking to both controllers and pilots, the one thing we are all in agreement is that the ATC procedures in the UAE need to be changed. Sad thing is the one person who isn't listening is the regulator!!!! Until he opens his ears, or is moved on then nothing will change.

Here are my two favourite "accidents waiting to happen scenerio's in the current system we now operate. Dubai on 12, outbound via Riket slow climber, handed to UAE east out of 8500 for example, straight into the teeth of a Fujeirah outbound climbing slowly heading northbound. The other, inbound to RAK routing straight to the RAV, dropping to 10A, inbound to Dubai dropping also to 10A via Maxmo!!!

Who can design a system like this????

The other really sad thing, will the different nationalities controlling the traffic, we could pick and choose the best ideas and create an excellent system. ATC isn't rocket science.


Anyway, hope it changes, me going back home soon need to get back to the ATC real world not this current Disney land!!!

[W.O.Bentley]

Well done folks... another thread that has given some good ideas ruined by the old "bloody ATC/Pilots if they could only do their job." drivvel.:suspect:

I really wonder why I bother reading this stuff anymore........:(

[Schnowzer]

Ali,

You mention:

i have lost count of the amount of times i have had 8+ a/c line astern 10nm trail only to be told by dubai we need 15/20nm now.

That is because centre fire a stream of aircraft into Dubai airspace from a long range. The lead time required to sort the spacing out does not allow for tactical adjustments at a late stage. The solution has been requested by Dubai on many occasions only to be shot down in flames by RJ. They last asked when the airshow was on.

All they wanted was a hold to the North and a hold to the South under their control. Centre could supply the stream as requested but if Dubai runway requirements or unforseen events caused a change in the spacing at a late stage they could use the hold to finesse things.

Irrespective of how good or bad the controllers or the pilots are, proper airspace design can only reduce the workload of all the players and lead to more efficient airspace and runway utilisation.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Thats funny Schnowzer, cos some crews in Dubai manage to work with us and make the sequence work. It takes the Dubai Coordinator to actually look out on a bigger scale screen and actually work out the order of the sequence. Then he calls either West or East and gives direct to final approach fix if thats appropriate or asks us to give increased spacing specifically between specific aircraft. Hey presto, the sequence threads together from east and west. What annoys Centre controllers and pilots alike is we vector the backside off the aircraft on West to achieve our required 20 NM in trail spacing and then on first contact the recently shafted aircraft that has been pulled back to 250 kts IAS gets given direct Ukrum high speed to the field?????? Yes the procedures need to be improved, and yes slot times would be great, but also the present system could be worked better than it is. I am not trying to sledge all Dubai controllers, because some of the guys and gals, do as I explained first, and the traffic gets on the ground in a much smoother way, than when the latter kind of Dubai coordinator is on and he tells you to hold an aircraft at DESDI when the aircraft in 2NM to run to DESDI.

To Mack Truck, minor or major is irrelevant when it comes to who should come when into Dubai. Slot times in another place would be great, I just can't even begin to comprehend trying to coordinate a slot time requirement for an aircraft arrving through ORSAR from Tehran. We have enough trouble getting the very simple standard stuff out of them.

[Schnowzer]

ANSA,

Still no one from centre has answered why Dubai cannot control its own holds. If there was an appropriate stack for the active runway with a timing pattern, from the hold to the runway, it would solve just about all of the problems you describe.

Centre could manage the aircraft through their airspace, deconflicted by altitude to the hold. Then Dubai could pick off the aircraft as required and finally finesse the aircraft after they have left the hold to guarantee the spacing on final to fit in the departures.

Dubai wouldn't need a 'robo-coordinator' and centre's workload would be massively reduced. If the procedures in force are not optimum; change them. They should be simple enough that even the lowest common denominator can operate them. Don't blame the coordinator until the procedures make sense. I know there is a bit of history between various individuals on both sides of the divide but surely everyone can rise above it. If we can sort the airspace out it will benefit Centre Controllers, Terminal Controllers and Pilots alike!

[Vorsicht]

At the end of the day though guys, who really gives a sh*t. I just put on more gas and sit in the hold or take the vectors until i can fit in. It's their train set, they make the rules, put on more gas and reduce everyones stress levels.

I long ago gave up any concern about efficient operation for this outfit. You could lose a lot of sleep worrying about it, to no avail, or you can pull out the kite surfer and let the bean counters worry about how much it costs to carry 2 tonnes extra.

I'd much rather be having a beer at the IV with the ATC crowd than arguing on this forum about something that none of us can control.

[Zomp]

vorsicht,
you are so right, I couldn't care less about EK and ATC, they belong to the same guy, it's his money not mine, if I stress out and save some gas he'll give the extra profit to a football team or else.
let's see where EK is in 10 years from now.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Schnowzer I can't give you a reason why Dubai shouldn't control the bottom of the holding pattern because there is none. Dubai should at least have the bottom level of the stack. You take him in, we drop the next guy and give him to you, you bring him in we drop the next guy and give him to you. That still doesn't solve the problems of spacing when we aren't holding (which is getting less often but still the majority of the time). I honestly don't think slot times will work, because that relies on our neighbours being a part of the whole plan, and that won't happen. We can't get aircraft as late as we do and then try and implement a time to meet requirement on them. So the only quick improvement I can see right now would be more specific flowing from the Dubai coordinator. That is rather than a blanket 20 NM in trail spacing, by the Dubai Coordinator being more proactive and working out the order of the sequence 100 NM out from Dubai and then adjusting the spacing requirements to East and West as is required there would be a lot less wasted slots into Dubai and similarly a lot less cluster farks in the DB TMA when the aircraft have been vectored to achieve required spacing only to be vectored all over again once with Dubai. My understanding is that during training in DB TMA the coordinator position is a bit of an afterthought, and very little if any training time is spent there, whereas I think it is one of the most important positions in the operation. Some people who have worked as a Flow controller back in there home countries are a joy to work with and they make the sequence work from both sides, whereas in some cases you go to Dubai Corrdinator with a request for an aircraft 60 NM out of Dubai, and the reply is "Who?" as they haven't even looked at the aircraft yet. Again this is not trying to slag off Dubai Controllers cos on the whole they do a good job, and there are sequences handed off by guys in the Centre that make me wince with embarrasment, so there are problems on both sides, but I think there needs to be improvement made. Fire away!

[The Real Pink Baron]

Vorsicht.
Were is the IV I would like to catch up with the ATC guys again, been a long time!
More fuel = Less blood pressure. Simple!
Pink

[cat man do]

[QUOTE]Here are my two favourite "accidents waiting to happen scenerio's in the current system we now operate. Dubai on 12, outbound via Riket slow climber, handed to UAE east out of 8500 for example, straight into the teeth of a Fujeirah outbound climbing slowly heading northbound. The other, inbound to RAK routing straight to the RAV, dropping to 10A, inbound to Dubai dropping also to 10A via Maxmo!!!
Who can design a system like this????[QUOTE]
Great example, lets see now. The slow climber is not complying with the climb gradient, ACC has released traffic from FJ (yes, they are subject to release) and 2 in from DARAX, one for RAV and 1 MAXMO. So let's recap, no produre followed thus dangerous, how am I doing? If the ACC guy releases traffic from FJ when he has a dicey situation only has himself to blame. My next question is: at what point does the years of training as an ATC actually kick in? All over the world procedures are flawed and ATC's are trained to deal withit, it's our job! Traffic will always conflict at some or other point. To design airspace with no conflicts takes our function away. You have a licence, start using it.
Getting back to the thread, the solution is for DB to introduce flow and stop this open skies policy where it's a free for all.
Cat out
:zzz:

[readytocopy]

I know how to solve the problem....go to Boston, New York, Atlanta and get new ATC personals that dont freak out when the airspace has 5 aircraft or when the vis drops to 1km.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Try more than 15 aircraft. Some guys still think Dubai is some dusty backwater with no traffic. As I illustrated on the previous thread, if compared to LGW, ie. single runway versus single runway, Dubai is less than 50 movements a day less on average than the average movements per day for LGW, that is about 630 versus 680. Dubai traffic is growing at between 10-15% annually while Gatwick trafic is growing at about 3-4% a year. So by the middle of next year Dubai will overtake Gatwick for traffic numbers.

You can try and get some yank controllers if you like but the one that came here lasted a matter of minutes before he stuffed up and was sent home. Nice guy but just goes to show you can't generalise about different nationalities. I see great Aussie pilots every day and really bad aussie pilots, the same goes for Poms, Yarpies and yanks. I know you are a wind up merchant readytocopy so congrats you got me to bite.

To Cat, I think he is referring to the inbound RAK being one from the WEST, ie inbound through DESDI, and so I have to agree that it is an accident waiting to happen. The Dubai guys are trying to thread the RAK arrival through the PAPAR departures, and then not let him run up the back of the LALDO/TONVO departures, so he takes him nth of SHJ only to try and hit the MAXMO inbound. And this twaddle about not meeting climb gradients?????? Yeh like that will float in the investigation later when the Cathay 742 in August carrying a belly load of rubber dog poo, climbs out through RIKET, 2 minutes after FUJ has called for a release of the FUJ traffic. The FUJ traffic pops up nose to nose with the 742 dragging his belly on the mountains and your only choice is to turn the FUJ departure to the right, that is right into the mountains. While we are on bad procedures try holding down to 10 thousand at Bubin right hand pattern with a run of departures through RIKET all assigned 13,000. Now you may say that the BUBIN pattern is separated from RIKET departures but when some of the operators decide to enter the hold at 270 or 280 kts they tend to go pretty wide on the turn. Now even those amazing controllers from ATLANTA, Boston and wherever else would jump at that one.

I agree procedures need to be fixed, and I haven't even started on the DARAX inbound versus outbound scenario. But we work with it best as we can, and so a bit of respect and appreciation goes a long way from the pilots. Not gonna get that here though are we.

[chinawladi]

readytocopy:
Spot on. How did the Japanese start out in the car business? They took the best, copied them first, and then improved.
Good for them they didn't have any dish dash movers on the decision making floor.

[410]

Sad to see this thread degenerate, almost from the first reply, into the slanging match I was attempting to get away from by opening the new thread. (I’m tempted to add my tuppence worth as well, particularly on Australian ATC, but I’m going to put away my tape measure, zip up my fly, and let it remain a mystery as to whether I’ve got a bigger one than the ATC bloke (or bloke-ette!!!) on the other end of the radio.)

So, avoiding the personal barb posts and the slanging off from both sides, and attempting to paraphrase the posts that actually came up with constructive suggestions, we have the following contributions:

1. Restrict the ‘minors’. I must say that I believe they are only a very small part of the problem and restricting them is unlikely to make a huge difference.

2. Slot times. But more than one respondent says they’re unlikely to work because of the difficulties they would create with nearby ATC agencies. I tend to agree with the naysayers on this point.

3. The A330. Slippery little sucker, we’d all agree, and with the best of intentions, many of its drivers find it difficult to adhere to ATC instructions and remain within EK company configuration requirements (which have been laid down in an attempt to avoid unstable approaches and unnecessary go arounds). To this, we could add -

4. Some EK pilots choose not to obey speed control. I have to admit to seeing this myself, when I’ve had FO’s adopt a speed other than what we’ve been told to take up. So I can only assume other captains condone or commit this.

5. Less than perfect co-ordination between UAE Area Control and Dubai Approach. If anyone believes there is no room for improvement here, they spend their working days at a desk and not in a cockpit or on a radar scope.

6. Poor R/T discipline (the clear inference being, ‘by some EK pilots’). I have to plead guilty of that myself on occasion at oh dark thirty at the end of a long night’s grind.

7. The gem from Outta HeresoonI find generally the most limiting item in the equation is the regulations the controllers have to followI think this hits the nail squarely on the head if we want to properly address the problem that is the subject of this thread.

8. At the risk of causing offence, it’s probably worth adding the rest of his comment…with perhaps a smidgon of the controllers’ lack of appreciation for what the latest generation of aircraft are capable of and the pilot's inability to manage it properly.I think few would argue that this can sometimes be a part of the problem. Bring on the famil. flights and I think this problem would disappear in a matter of months.

9. Nimmer’s very astute observation:…the one thing we are all in agreement is that the ATC procedures in the UAE need to be changed. Sad thing is the one person who isn't listening is the regulator!!!! The current procedures are costing the operators a lot of money daily in totally unnecessary fuel burn, so much so that I can’t believe they’re not screaming for, or demanding, major changes to the system immediately if not sooner. But I suppose we’re making up part of those losses by delaying starting our APUs until we’re approaching the stand. Holding aside, surely it would not be impossible to come up with discrete arrivals procedures for each runway that will allow a constant descent to the ILS glide part? The current below 13,000’ requirement at ESAVO (sp?) etc ensures a fuel gobbling drag in over God alone knows how many miles for every aircraft in the arrivals sequence if the approach isn’t a straight in. Surely the 4Ts and the 3Vs could have different height requirements at these points to allow a constant descent?

10. I’ve saved the last suggestion I gleaned from the posts for last and in stating it, I’m NOT slagging off the controllers on UAE Area Control. The problem isn’t the controllers, but is stated clearly in Points 7 and 9. If Dubai controlled the holds they could then arrange what ever spacing they required.I have to agree 110% with Schnowzer on this point. Let’s have close in holds that will allow us to remain clean (ie, 230 knots or above) until we commence the approach. DESDI and BUBIN could still be used in exceptional circumstances, but let Dubai Approach look after any holds on a near normal day. And let’s have STARS that allow a constant descent to the FAF if holding isn’t required.


Vorschit and Zomp, I understand where you’re coming from, but… all too often, throwing a couple of tonnes on for Mum and the kids simply isn’t an option.

[Vorsicht]

Well for me, I have never experienced a flight when i can't carry extra fuel into Dubai.

So, during the peak periods i always do.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I cannot believe how quickly this thread degenerated into a squabble...:ouch:

For me the following would help at DXB enormously;

1/. Seperate Clearance delivery freq,
2/. Seperate Ramp and Grnd Freq,

The political farce that is the airspace surrounding DXB is beyond our control so live with it like the professionals we are supposed to be.

[BullerBoy]

An interesting thread following on from the R/T discussion !

My summary .........

1. EK pilots are by far the most professional in the ME, if they get special "treatment" at LHR or other places then big deal, compared to the other operators in the ME (MSR, QTR) they are tops. At least they monitor the freq and answer first time. Yes, some spacing is excessive, but after repeating the same thing 3 or 4 times to some drongo on the other end of the radio, plan "A" is always going to turn out differently after running an extra 15 track miles playing 20 questions.

2. I started a thread some weeks ago asking pilots if they are able to meet separation requirments when instructed to make a time over a fix, as we have been attempting to do for some months to create some sort of arrival flow into one of our units. The summary was yes, but many pilots choose not to follow the requirement and couldnt care less.

3. Based on that, timed flow control has been largly abandoned, and we will not bother vectoring A/C all over the FIR to create gaps, we have got the go ahead to hold everybody and use timed approaches from the hold. Hopefully it will catch-on and be used more widely in the region.

4. Air Traffic Management in the ME is non-existant, the airspace is poorly designed and the route structure creates more conflicts than it solves. What worked 10 years ago is not suitable for the traffic in the ME today (and tomorrow, or for the next 15+ years)

5. On this thread some Pilots and ATC may be bitching about each other, but the common theme is that they all recognise that the current airspace around DXB and adjacent FIR's (and all of the associated procedures) is inadequate and inefficient.

6. There is no prevention and there is no concept of forward planning. It will require a major incident to invoke any change. Many people have given up trying to make the airspace safer and more efficient, more time is spent just maintaining basic separation, so therefore efficiency and finese have been pushed aside.

7. Even if the local management push for changes they are still governed by the CAA and other "interested parties" higher up, or by an adjacent unit who only have their own interests at heart, it is no joy ride for them either.

8. Yes, DXB is the busiest unit in the ME. Based on that, an airspace restructuring exerecise should be conducted centreing on DXB and involving all of the adjacent FIR's in an attempt to create a seamless route structure throughout the ME with flow control procedures for DXB from 200+ miles out.

Yeah, Right.........:{

[sandstorm inferno]

ANSA
Try more than 15 aircraft. Some guys still think Dubai is some dusty backwater with no traffic.
What exactly is the sector loading in Dubai, do you know? I heard max 8 or something, so forget the "Dubai rocks the boat effect" ;)

Ali Bin Somewhere

sandy
you might like to calm down a bit . ever heard of sarcasm to make a point?
Calm as always...Sarcasm? eh yeah, but no, not really. Try to stay focussed and factual, that might help!

yes an extra nm or 3 is an extra delay for the next guy, so when i tell the a/c to turn then he should turn not spend the next 20nm after responding scratching his arse wondering if that call was for him or one of the other 15 a/c in the sequence.

when he is told to slow down he should comply not take 3 reminders to slow down ie slow to 250IAS 20nm later confirm slowing to 250IAS? we are 300IAS confirm you want us slow 250IAS. 20nm later whats your speed? 300ias confirm you want us to slow now? that way we get the 10/20nm etc and you get to land earlier
Why do you guys keep whinning. Write a fecking occurrence report until the problem is solved. Yeah yeah I know your reply its a never ending story etc. Do something about it.

you sound like a person of some experience with all things atc so i'll extend to you the same invite i did to Schnowzer. pm me, organise a time and come to the center and bring your licence so you can show us how its done

Schnowzer & Sandy i'm still waiting for you to pm so we can organise your visits!
You both appear to have years of experience in the ATC field at busy centers and maybe thats the sort of experience we need to have showing us how its done.
Do you want me to replace you???

Fox3snapshot

How many AN12 freighters, AN124's, TU134's and the like are they trying to sequence in the middle of a an RPT arrival rush where no flow control from adjacent sectors or slot times allows everybody to turn up at once
DXB has got aprx 300 daily arrivals right? EK has got aprx 80 modern aircraft, which some of them will arrive a couple of times daily due to short routes etc., plus the odd number of other western build aircraft from several other airlines, lets say aprx 100 (BA, LH, GF, QR etc.), let say a total of 220 western build aircraft. Thats almost 75% of all arrivals then. Where's your problem? The number is probably higher anyway..

As I didn't go to the school of how to be "Gods gift to the world of aviation" as it appears you must have...I will just keep hoping that the acepting unit will take the odd extra mile!
I'm no Gods gift, just professional in my spacing and job.

[EffohX]

I agree with Chimbu Chuckles. Could I add "Give us data link for pre departure clearances." You can't get a word in edgeways on Ground freq during the 2 am and 8 am rushes.

[Fox3snapshot]

You really do have tickets on yourself buddy....goodness you didn't work at Heathrow or Gatwick did you.....

I'm sorry, I'm not worthy....:yuk:

[sandstorm inferno]

Fox
you didn't work at Heathrow or Gatwick did you.....

Honestly no I didn't

[Fox3snapshot]

Hmmmmmm.....

Wow, now I am confused Sandstorm. :uhoh:

I was led to believe that there was only two places in the world that really know how to control...so pray tell, what other Mecca of Air Traffic Control exists, or have you playing TRACON on your home PC and waiting for an interview with NATS!

:E

[sandstorm inferno]

I was led to believe that there was only two places in the world that really know how to control

And its not UAE Centre!
Maybe its not you Fox but some of your colleagues definitely aren't the sharpest knives in town! Come on I've seen guys try to **** up 2 aircraft inbound AUH just to get 10 NM even after the AUH ATCO accepted level separation and the poor ACC guy with years of experience ended up with 20 NMs!!! HELLOOOOO... this is not a PC game as you like to refer to but the real world where fuel prices are a big burden on airlines. You most agree on that one (unless its you :E ) thats not good enough in ATC.

If you wanna know I dont do Tracon or flight sim, hey I get enough from the real world and have a life outside the working hours (unlike some ATCs who fly London - Cape Town on flight sim.... well what else to do on your off days :confused: )

[Fox3snapshot]

So Sandstorm...how much sequencing did you really do at those remote S.A airlfields????

:rolleyes:

[sandstorm inferno]

Fox

you're really not good at guessing (as well as controlling probably :( )

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

For a person who claims to have experience as a controller, you really have no idea how it works. To say that because 25% of our traffic is Russian built stuff that in many cases is extremely slow compared to the Boeing and Airbus stuff we don't have a problem is amazing. Back wherever you supposedly worked, how many sequences did you do well where you had 1 in every 4 aircraft unable to increase above 200 Kts IAS. If you have a sequence of 10 and even 1 of them let alone 2 of them are AN12's and you have to give 20 NM in trail spacing to Dubai, you will have big problems. Of course you are gods gift, so I'm sure you would manage.

Anyway this thread has run its course and still the two sides of the fence are miles apart. I still feel there are a minority of pilots here, who because they really don't understand the pressures and limitations on the ATC'ers, feel they can continue to belittle the job we do, and show absolutely no respect for the job we do. We will continue to do the best job we can do, and to the pilots on here that appreciate what we do, thanks.

[ruserious]

ANSA, as you mention it, I have to say that more slings and arrows have been thrown by your side of the fence. Have a look at many of your own posts, they are not always the most constructive.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

If trying to get pilots to meet ATC requirements and to say what we need to hear on first contact is not constructive, then so be it. I thought that pointing these things out might help, but obviously you don't think so.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

I know how to solve the problem....go to Boston, New York, Atlanta and get new ATC personals that dont freak out when the airspace has 5 aircraft or when the vis drops to 1km.


even better get rid of all the pilots who attempt to fly here and replace them with REAL pilots form {insert prefered country here} then at least we would get pilots who could fly/have correct r/t/meet requirements etc etc...............:E

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

The almighty sandy

Do you want me to replace you???

if you can do a better job then yes i'll go and retire to some app/twr unit somewhere...

Write a fecking occurrence report until the problem is solved. Yeah yeah I know your reply its a never ending story etc. Do something about it.

incident reports are filed whenever an a/c stuffs it up.

still waiting for you to organise a time. instead of carrying on like a pork chop on here put your money where your mouth is. the longer you put it off the more we know you are full of :mad:

[ruserious]

ANSA, first off apologies, as I have just re-read both the threads and for some reason I had associated you with some of the more negative, defensive and churlish comments posted by others. No excuses, I was wrong!

[sandstorm inferno]

still waiting for you to organise a time. instead of carrying on like a pork chop on here put your money where your mouth is. the longer you put it off the more we know you are full of ....

Ali Bin Somewhere (Toys R Us??)

Are you completely stupid or what? Don't you need some simulator exercises to tighten up your spacing instead of wasting your time on me?
You should know that people just can't walz into the centre a plug in without an OJT permit, a contract, acc course etc. Stop wasting your time on this subject. I don't have an Area rating and I'm not looking for one either. I might see things differently but my qualifications are purely in an approach and tower world. And if I may say; I'm pretty good at it too :}

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

snady

first you offer
Do you want me to replace you
I'm no Gods gift, just professional in my spacing and job.


then you find all the excuses not to follow through.
You should know that people just can't walz into the centre a plug in without an OJT permit, a contract, acc course etc. Stop wasting your time on this subject. I don't have an Area rating and I'm not looking for one either.

not to worry. i'll have a chat to the sim guys and pop you into the sim runs that are just to practice vectoring/holding. no ojt permit required, no contract, acc course etc etc just a chance for you to show me how its done.......:ok:

[sandstorm inferno]

first you offer

Re my first quote. You kept inviting me and I replied with a question. It wasn't an offer. Quote two doesn't really have anything to do with your invitation.

Call it excuses or whatever, I just didn't consider the sim since you probably booked it for yourself and a few others :E

Enough said in this matter I believe. This thread have lost its intension because you and me. Sorry to others but just as a last comment people can read that it isn't only ATC vs Pilots its also ATC vs ATC.
I will stand firm on this one: UAE doesn't foster the sharpest knives in ATC :hmm:

[OmanAir]

Sorry for interrupting your friendly little chat, but could somebody please raise the DXB ATIS antenna? The range is now extremely limited.

As for the single runway ops into DXB, I have only one thing to say; Job well done, ATC! It's a nice and tight operation. The only problems I've encountered have been caused by fellow drivers, not ATC.

Over all, I don't have much to complain about. Sure, speed control can be a bit confusing at times, but that doesn't bother me much. Very seldom do I get long vectors and holding does not happen.

I really don't like the long initial call to DBX arrival, but that’s probably written down as a local requirement somewhere. How hard can it be to do it right?

We want local ATC to operate like European ATC. OK. Shouldn't we operate to the European standard as well? You would NEVER EVER line up in LHR or FRA without being completely ready. You would NEVER EVER sit on the runway for 60 seconds after being cleared for immediate take off on any of those airports. When you're told a speed, you maintain it. You bloody well know you're going to fark it up for somebody if you don't.

Why should operating in and out of DXB be any different?

[sandborne]

Oman Air
Have passed on about one hundred complaints on the DXB atis, still no change.
Sandstorm Inferno
Thanks, you've been really constructive.

[EffohX]

Nice to see a post from someone who's making a constructive suggestion rather than trading insults. Pity we couldn't just cut out all the name calling posts and stick with the subject of the thread.

I have to say that I've been pleasantly surprised lately at the way DXB Twr has been handling departures lately, squeezing one in between arrivals with absolute minimum tolerances. I was cleared to line up a day or two ago with an A330 at 7 miles final. Wouldn't have happened a few weeks ago. Keep it up gents, and please disregard the comments from those very few EK pilots who unfortunately have dominated this thread.

[Yakkity MK2]

Hey all,
I can see from all the posts /threads on Dubai that NOTHING has changed in the years that i have left. The same pilot bitching and comparing to other ATC units worldwide.
Dubai , unfortunately is governed by the GCAA and that does tie their hands somewhat. So if the operators are that concerned about procedures and delays , etc. they should direct any anger towards them and not at the ATCO's.
We're all out there trying to do what is the best for all concerned and a bit of understanding from both sides tends to make things run just that little bit smoother.
Does EK still send it's pilots to the ATC when they are doing type conversions /ratings??

[Fox3snapshot]

Whilst GCAA are the administrators, the current flow control requirements (up to 30 miles every arrival at the busier times) are instigated by Dubai.

Their reasons may or may not be justified as it varies from crew to crew and whether the moon is lined up with Jupiter!

At the end of the day whilst we have independant administrations and everybody running their own programs, outdated equipment, not enough staff and everyone operating from different centres....the shambles will continue. :ugh:

Given the chance for all the coal face controllers to catch up for a beer, wine or spritzer, solve our differences and then given the opportunity to influence management policy we might get things on the rails.... :) till then we will just have to put up with things deteoriating on a daily basis...:D

The good news the regional airlines are all expanding at an unmanageble rate and we should be really excited about that! :suspect:

[Yakkity MK2]

Yes i agree with all you say, but the main point i should have brought up is that policy is handed down from GCAA....even though the flow spacing is Dubai's the holds etc were moved by the GCAA and Dubai's airsapce was REDUCED in size when asked for more ....go figure.
Was just trying to say that a better understanding of policy by all would maybe lighten up the die hards.....
You say short staffed , believe the quota for the year is filled ???? Pm me with more info...i'll come back :rolleyes:

[Fox3snapshot]

The quota is based on an academic figure of controllers plucked from the depths of statistics.....:hmm: Not what the industry norm dictates throughout the real world...

The fact is no position has a permanent planner. If you do use planner on your undermanned crew (ie. less than 6 when it suits) ...then you have ummmm no breaks and God forbid you need 2 planners for the 4 permanent positions!, no stand alone supervisor and 1200- 1300 moves a day with this figure increasing relative to the inflation rate we enjoy here in the Capital!

Ho hum....one of my two buckets is filling up rapidly...:(

[Yakkity MK2]

LOL as i said.....nothing changed since i left........:}

[Fox3snapshot]

Only that the traffic has trippled and you have to buy your own rugs now...:E