SAA Flight-Deck Affirmative Action

[3rdBogey]

With respect to all the issues around the new SAA, accelerated command etc, I would like to know:
The goverment is planning to attain a 70% black, 30% other ratio in the airline, across the board at every level, I hear.....(remember this is a rumour network).
Now seeing as EVERYTHING in the "New South Africa" is SKIN COLOUR, just as it was in the old "Regime".... WHAT IS THE RATIO OF PEOPLE'S SKIN COLOUR WHO BUY THE TICKETS AND TRAVEL ON THE AEROPLANES!!!????
i.e. People who are actually paying, NOT the goverment gravy-trainers!
If this ratio is warped in favour of "Lily white skin people" travelling, why don't they STOP travelling with SAA and start travelling with the private airlines???

[wheels up]

Why don't they recruit pilots in the same ratio that are prepared to pay for their own training and spend years in the pleasure spots of Africa. That would be fun.

[Shrike200]

Well, I voted for the 'free speech' thing, because I'm always for that on principle - if you don't want to see it, don't look. Nonetheless 3rdbogey, I'm afraid this thread has no future. We've been down this road quite a few times on this forum, it doesn't help. :hmm:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Don't mind the thread remaining open but the moment it starts attracting the loonies it's time to flush it.

[porridge]

IMHO it is not going to make a blind bit of difference in a couple of years. Within a short time the ME and Asia will be crying out for flight crews.
Here are some fairly basic facts presented at a GAPAN Instructor forum at RAF Cranwell last week.
1. Emirates are taking delivery of an aircraft a month for the next 10 years
2. Qatar and Oman (population 200k) are rapidly expanding
3. China needs 3000 pilots a year to stand still – they are only training 780 per year at the moment.
How long is it going to be before these areas start sucking in people from SA, starting with the qualified and experienced? Pay will be better than SAR, in USD and also tax free. My suggestion is to find some way to get type rated on jets and some jet experience asap.
By the way Ryanair are pretty desperate as well and this will have some effect on the European marketplace for opportunities for people prepared to get a JAR license.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Is there an age limit for these posts abroad, Mnr Porridge?

I'm already beyond the limit of 43 for EK...:(

[cavortingcheetah]

:rolleyes:

Well, when demand exceeds supply to such an extent as outlined heretofore, supply quality must deteriorate with a consequent similar fall manifested in the machinery operated.:sad:

[Antman]

SRT

Check out http://emiratesgroupcareers.com/ no mention of a maximum age anymore.

[fluffyfan]

With respect to all the issues around the new SAA, accelerated command etc, I would like to know:
The goverment is planning to attain a 70% black, 30% other ratio in the airline, across the board at every level, I hear.....(remember this is a rumour network).

This is not just a SAA issue, this will soon effect ALL airlines in the country, its law whether you like it or not, the government would have done this long ago if they could have, just like every other government venture, however there are not enough drivers of the dark kind..........

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Mercy buckets, Mr Antman...:ok:

One has a CV with EK. Been about a month since an update for what it's worth. No jet time, you see.:( Need to keep trying and find out just how hard up they really are for crews...:ok:

[Heli_Sticktime]

Just wait till Afriaviation takes the bait, yee haa :}

[porridge]

SRT
I don't think age is an issue anymore whereever. I know someone with only 400 hours who is your age who will be joining Ryanair shortly. I think you will find that a time will come where age and maturity will also become a factor for airlines to consider in the not too distant future. There was this school of thought that said an airline needs to get young people in because of the investment they were making in the individuals that they needed them to remain with the airline for a fairly long duration. However, it seems that the low-cost carriers now only keep the staff for around 5 years anyway so what difference does age now make? BA are moving to keep their crews on to age 65 now (instead of 55) as a pension issue mainly, but it also has much to do with retaining staff with experience for longer as well.
It won't be only the pale males who will be moving, as I recall Air Zim sent some cadets to train at Oxford back in the late 80's. Later some of these individuals, armed with a UK CAA license, jumped ship to go and work in the ME for the obviously more lucrative salaries. I'll bet it won't be long before the same thing happens at SAA et al!

[B Sousa]

"If this ratio is warped in favour of "Lily white skin people" travelling, why don't they STOP travelling with SAA and start travelling with the private airlines???"

I think Mr Bogey that beyond the crew makeup, service has been lacking a bit( in the back anyway) and those who can, ARE choosing other means of travel.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Sounds like racism to me or am I just another loony - SRT? :E
Excellent speech by Tutu yesterday? Should do much to restore balanced business confidence in South Africa?:rolleyes:

Archbishop Desmond Tutu has said South Africa's white community has not shown enough appreciation of the generosity shown to them by black South Africans. :=
Ex-President FW de Klerk said in turn that black citizens should be grateful to whites for surrendering power. ;)

I suppose that I should be thankful that I travel on a Moldavian passport these days.:p

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Reckon you, me and Bert are the only sane ones CC...:E




Wibble...:\

[cavortingcheetah]

:cool:

Thank you for the compliment.
I shall now go and watch 'The Blue Max' secure in the knowledge that I am not the only devilishly handsome, glory hunting philanderer endowed with a Gablesque pyschosis problem and an appreciative eye for more than one kind of baubly bubble:E

[FlingWingKing]

70% black and 30% others!!???

Dont think that will happen. There is already a crew shortage and no blacks to fill the posts. I do not hear any black accents over the radio waves, nor do I see black faces at the flying schools!

Unless SAA is planning on "importing" some blacks from other African countries, I'm afraid those figures are just a dream. It is my opinion that blacks do not want to fly, otherwise we would have seen many more in the USA airlines as an example. By the way, it is not just SAA that want to have "locals" on the flight deck, I believe other international airlines are also "promoting" that there should be "representation" on the deck.

It surely is interesting times ahead of us. Bottom line for me, I dont really want to leave South Africa. It is a great country and if we can just sort out crime and stop harping on the past, it will be an AWESOME country.

SAA might perform like the Springboks did a couple of years back, but look at the Boks now. There is hope!

[Cessnafan]

70% black and 30% others!!???
Dont think that will happen. There is already a crew shortage and no blacks to fill the posts. I do not hear any black accents over the radio waves, nor do I see black faces at the flying schools!
Unless SAA is planning on "importing" some blacks from other African countries, I'm afraid those figures are just a dream. It is my opinion that blacks do not want to fly, otherwise we would have seen many more in the USA airlines as an example. By the way, it is not just SAA that want to have "locals" on the flight deck, I believe other international airlines are also "promoting" that there should be "representation" on the deck.
It surely is interesting times ahead of us. Bottom line for me, I dont really want to leave South Africa. It is a great country and if we can just sort out crime and stop harping on the past, it will be an AWESOME country.
SAA might perform like the Springboks did a couple of years back, but look at the Boks now. There is hope!
Flingwing, It seems to me that every 2nd training aircraft I see around Jhb these days has, shall we say someone dark in complection sitting in the left seat, and I'm hearing them on the airwaves too, just give it a few years and these guys will be moving through the system.

[B Sousa]

"Excellent speech by Tutu yesterday? Should do much to restore balanced business confidence in South Africa?
Archbishop Desmond Tutu has said South Africa's white community has not shown enough appreciation of the generosity shown to them by black South Africans."

What do you expect the twit to say. I ran into him a couple months ago as he got off a lear jet in Atlanta Ga.......Not a bad life, flitting around the world.

Hes probably right though in the fact that THEY have control now and if you dont like it try and get out...
FW's statement fell on deaf ears....

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Well yes, importing pilots in order to place the approved reflection in the cockpit? Air Botswana did that some years ago for just the very same motive as mooted by FWK. It didn't really have any internatonal impact but were such an employment policy adopted by SAA; it would attract comment and probably favourable at that from the world press.

Bishop Desmond Tutu of Klerksdorp? A cunning llittle artificer who cloaks his evil humour with such an abuse of ecclesiastical power as to make a medieval paederastic pope appear benign.

Mind you though, I'll wager he has no shortage of passports for himself and his entourage of parasites. A man who thoroughly disgusts me.:yuk:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Agreed.

Not often one comes across a more two faced individual. His delight at the deaths caused by the bombing campaign of the '70s and '80s still sickens me.

[crew-use-only]

why is it that whenever someone makes a comment, on blacks its racist yet that malakka tutu can say the most disgusting things about whites and its not racist.
By the way I'm not south African,but I have been there enough to see what is going on!
The place is fantastic but its going down the same path as Zim, what a damm shame.

this what has happened
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/02/world/africa/02zimbabwe.html?hp&ex=1146628800&en=a80e2e6bcbf48962&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[bman0429]

Too Funny!!!!!!

[flyhardmo]

The goverment is planning to attain a 70% black, 30% other ratio in the airline, across the board at every level

The only racism i see is in the above plan.. If people are getting into the cockpit because of their colour and not their ability then God help those paying pax.. Ive go no problem with anyone that has the skill, experience and level head to be a safe driver.. this usually happens without government intervention or quota's...
If as mentioned that there are alot of black pilots in training then naturally they will filter into the system with time. Sounds like the government wants to appeal to the masses to stay in power and hijacking aviation in its wake..

[bman0429]

You guys kill me!

Can someone tell me how many black pilots are currently flying for SAA. I spent nearly eight hrs at Jo'berg and saw zero. Of this number that you come up with how many are Capts?

How many of you were complaining about how unfair things were 20 years ago? Not a one I'll bet! Its funny fair is only fair when you're in the seat of power.

10+ years of AA ain't gonna fix a century or so of systematic rascist practices, but its a start.

Do you honestly think "oh aparthied is over bygones. let's all compete on merit" is fair when the "indigenous" populace couldn't even hold jobs that would allow them or their children access to the very things you take for granted.

No you've had your leg up and you'd like to keep it that way. No one can blame you, but that certainly does make you a bit racist.:cool:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

In other words, two wrongs do, in fact, make a right.

[Shrike200]

You guys kill me!
Can someone tell me how many black pilots are currently flying for SAA. I spent nearly eight hrs at Jo'berg and saw zero. Of this number that you come up with how many are Capts?
How many of you were complaining about how unfair things were 20 years ago? Not a one I'll bet! Its funny fair is only fair when you're in the seat of power.
10+ years of AA ain't gonna fix a century or so of systematic rascist practices, but its a start.
Do you honestly think "oh aparthied is over bygones. let's all compete on merit" is fair when the "indigenous" populace couldn't even hold jobs that would allow them or their children access to the very things you take for granted.
No you've had your leg up and you'd like to keep it that way. No one can blame you, but that certainly does make you a bit racist.:cool:

Slow down. 20 years ago I was about ten years old. How much complaining did you expect me to do? Think about it for a second....should I have been toting an AK then, or blowing up bars or something?

Seat of power, my ass. I don't hold anything. I come very much second to any black person trying to get into SAA. And of course there's the ultimate currency, the black female. Sort of like four aces in poker - beats anything. Don't give me 'seat of power' rubbish quotes....who do you think I am? If you think my skin colour gives me anything but disadvantage nowadays, you're clueless.

So, once again: My generation had nothing to do with apartheid, but we get shafted by the current policies. Those who did benefit, are about to retire with 1 mil + p.a. retirements. If you had thought about it for more than a millisecond, you would see why we (or I, at the very least) complain.

Edit: I see you give your location as New Orleans. I assume then, that you haven't experienced the full reality of the situation here, unlike many here whose livelyhoods are directly affected.

[bman0429]

Slow down. 20 years ago I was about ten years old. How much complaining did you expect me to do? Think about it for a second....should I have been toting an AK then, or blowing up bars or something?

Seat of power, my ass. I don't hold anything. I come very much second to any black person trying to get into SAA. And of course there's the ultimate currency, the black female. Sort of like four aces in poker - beats anything. Don't give me 'seat of power' rubbish quotes....who do you think I am? If you think my skin colour gives me anything but disadvantage nowadays, you're clueless.

So, once again: My generation had nothing to do with apartheid, but we get shafted by the current policies. Those who did benefit, are about to retire with 1 mil + p.a. retirements. If you had thought about it for more than a millisecond, you would see why we (or I, at the very least) complain.

Edit: I see you give your location as New Orleans. I assume then, that you haven't experienced the full reality of the situation here, unlike many here whose livelyhoods are directly affected.

So lemme get this straight "20 years ago I was about ten years old" means you didn't directly benefit from aparthied?! So your gonna tell me that your parents (therefore you) didn't have more and more opporunities than your 10 year old black counterpart and his family?! Now you want to compete on a "level playing field"?

If you're mad and want to blame someone blame those who came before you who were complicit in creating the previous system. It was they who made it so. You are having to deal with the aftermath.

The funny thing is I know several south african pilots working abroad. I have never run across one who was black anywhere. I suppose that's just a coincidence!?

As an aside I've spent time in SA and with South Africans and I do not live in New Orleans.

[divinehover]

"The funny thing is I know several south african pilots working abroad. I have never run across one who was black anywhere. I suppose that's just a coincidence!?"

Why would a black pilot go work overseas? It's presented to him on a silver platter at home

[FlingWingKing]

What is the ratio of black to white pilots in the USA? No sinister motive posing this question, genuinly want to get the facts.

[bman0429]

What is the ratio of black to white pilots in the USA? No sinister motive posing this question, genuinly want to get the facts.

Its somewhere between 1-2% of the total commercial pilots. Blacks represent about 11-15% of the population. Give or take. What's the % like in SA? In the states the "guys" say the rato is that way becuase A) It is representative of the % of the population B) They must just not be interested in aviation. BS!! There was a whole squadron of blacks who fought & flew in WWII. When they got out after the war they were'nt allowed to be pilots. The first black pilots in the US was hired in the 70's, shortly after the civil rights amendment was signed into the constitution.

Its so infurating to have to listen to white males complain about not having any jobs or opportunities. In the states there has never been a black CEO at an airline or a black POTUS. They occupy most of the top jobs. I think the real complaint with white males anywhere tends to be when they are no longer able to hold total domination over anything the complaining begins.

Hell wait till open skies hits and the jobs go to the lowest bidders from China and India the we're all screwed!!

divinehover
I have never run across a black pilot in south africa either. In the airport or on an SAA flight.

[Cessnafan]

I have never run across a black pilot in south africa either. In the airport or on an SAA flight.[/QUOTE]
I guess that says it all then, you obviously havent been in South Africa very much, if at all:ok:

[kingpost]

[quote=Shrike200]

Well said Shrike200. All those in promoting the AA policies are the same individuals who benefited from apartheid.

There are plenty of jobs overseas, you just have to do what's necessary to get ahead without competing with the "royal game".

Good luck

[FlingWingKing]

I believe at SAA of the 800 pilots, about 80-90 are non-white. They have at least 2 black captains I know of, and a couple close to command. Considering it can take anything between 12-17 years to get command at SAA, and the country being "free" for only 12 years, the figures do not look too bad. A lot of cadetts are coming through the line as well, Flying for SA Express and SA Airlink, so in due course they should get into SAA and ultimately command.

I do not know this for a fact, but I believe in South Africa about 5% of pilots with commercial licences are black. 75% of the population are black, so the figures dont make sense.

You say the first commercial black pilot in the USA was hired in the 70's. Surely with a 10-15% black population at least 10% of the commercial pilots should be black. Any idea why the figures dont make mathematical sense?

Why is it that airlines like Emirats, Quatar, Cathy, Singapour, Dragon, Mauritius, Kenya, to name but a few, have to employ predominantly white expats to fly their aircraft? Is'nt it perhaps because flying appeals more to whites that it does to other skin colours? AND PLEASE, I MEAN THIS IN NO WAY TO BE A RACIST STATEMENT. It is purely an observation. By saying this I do not say flying does not appeal to non-whites and that flying is a white man's job. What I am saying is that flying attract (as a career,hobby,passion) more whites than non-whites. Not to say that it doesn't attract non-whites.

This is just my penny's worth, and may I reiterate that I in no way intended this post to have a racist undertone. I am just trying, like all of us, to make sense of this and to understand the issue better. I do not think the issue has anything to do with skin colour, i think it has to do with power.

Fly safe

[bman0429]

I believe at SAA of the 800 pilots, about 80-90 are non-white. They have at least 2 black captains I know of, and a couple close to command. Considering it can take anything between 12-17 years to get command at SAA, and the country being "free" for only 12 years, the figures do not look too bad. A lot of cadetts are coming through the line as well, Flying for SA Express and SA Airlink, so in due course they should get into SAA and ultimately command.

I do not know this for a fact, but I believe in South Africa about 5% of pilots with commercial licences are black. 75% of the population are black, so the figures dont make sense.

You say the first commercial black pilot in the USA was hired in the 70's. Surely with a 10-15% black population at least 10% of the commercial pilots should be black. Any idea why the figures dont make mathematical sense?

Why is it that airlines like Emirats, Quatar, Cathy, Singapour, Dragon, Mauritius, Kenya, to name but a few, have to employ predominantly white expats to fly their aircraft? Is'nt it perhaps because flying appeals more to whites that it does to other skin colours? AND PLEASE, I MEAN THIS IN NO WAY TO BE A RACIST STATEMENT. It is purely an observation. By saying this I do not say flying does not appeal to non-whites and that flying is a white man's job. What I am saying is that flying attract (as a career,hobby,passion) more whites than non-whites. Not to say that it doesn't attract non-whites.

This is just my penny's worth, and may I reiterate that I in no way intended this post to have a racist undertone. I am just trying, like all of us, to make sense of this and to understand the issue better. I do not think the issue has anything to do with skin colour, i think it has to do with power.

Fly safe

I certainly appreciate the thoughtfulness of your post. Let me try my hand at answer to some of your questions.

Black pilots in the states don't reflect the same ratio as their proportion in the populace because of two reason I believe:

The first is years of discrimnatory practices by whites. Its hard to argue against this point with any validity.

The second is lack of participation of previous generations (most probably precipitated by the first. You see lack of resources and lack of exposure will limit anyones career outlook.

[bman0429]

bman0429:

The difference between 12 years of freedom and 30 years of freedom as correlated between South Africa and the Deep South in the States is very slight. In your own back yard, there were beatings and killings, segregation based upon creed, impoverishment of non-whites, etc. The only difference is that South Africa labelled this as Apartheid - you didn't. I am contracted in Australia at the moment, and the same goes here. Australia tried to breed out the Abo's, culled and sterilised these indigenous folk. As in the case of the States, the only difference is that the Aussies have not labelled racism as apartheid, but it exists here too. Now, as you are so well-travelled and of such esteemed opinion, tell me all about the affirmative action that was implemented in either your Southern States, or Australia? After all, it was your forefathers who implemented and and administered these atrocities, and even if you were from the Northen United States, your previous generations still stood idly by and chose to ignore the on-goings by their fellow US citizens down South. Now tell me, who's the pot calling the kettle black?
I am so tired of ignorant and ill-informed foreigners passing judgement on our generation of South Africans. And yes, I have always been opposed to the previous racist authority which dominated South Africa. After all, we could have been a mini Super-power had they not cocked it up by installing Apartheid. Nevertheless, when you constantly have to fight your way through the system to gain an equal footing in the work-place, then it does become too much after a while.
Get off your bloody high horse and stop pointing fingers. That's all.

Ummm maybe you need to reread my post?!

I am intimately aquainted with the racism in the USA (all regions)! I was addressing those SAs who would whine and complain about AA. As I said before it ain't fair, but neither was aparthied. Which is/was more unfair?

Your point about 12 years of freedom vs 30 (more like 75+ yrs of "freedom") is apples and oranges. Remember that they are the majority populace and they were there first and they got hosed because they didn't look like the people who are complaining today. They were stipped of their natural place in the hirearchy as the majority citizens. Blacks in the states were always a minority group and had to appeal to higher moral code to which the country was founded upon.

I dunno know what's worse being takin from your home and forced into slavery or being a slave in your own home?

I'm not saying who's better or who's worse. I have travelled a bit and read a bit.

[34']

"I have travelled a bit and read a bit" ...although I see some of your country folk need to read and travel more. No offense is intended but is funny ;)

http://www.vincenot.net/connerie/OnTheStreetsOfAmerica3.wmv

[Challenger-Deep]

34' - That's classic! And not to far from the truth...:}

[FlingWingKing]

Would have loved to hear some of his comments!!!

I am a white male who, probably in some eyes, have benefitted from our previous regime. I had opportunities in live, none of which were handed to me on a silver platter. Some opportunies presented itself and some I had to go look for. Nevertheless, had I not recognised those opportunities I would not have achived my goals.

I am thankfull for this.

What happened pre 1994 in South Africa is not unique. Since the beginning of time some groups were dominated by others. That is just a fact of live. Fair or not it happened and will happen again untill the end of time.

Although sitting here in my study, having achieved my goals, who some may argue was because i was advantaged by the previous regime, I suppose to expect the disadvantaged majority to just forgive and forget is too much to expect and too arrogant to ask.

However, although many wrongs were done, as long as we hold on to the past, we will forever be slaves of it. We will never be free to move forward and heal ourselves from the wrongs done by and to us.

Affimative action is something that us whities must accept and deal with. What the non-whites must accept and deal with, is that certain things take time. It takes time to get the experience to be a good commander. Anyone can learn the skills to "drive" an airplane, but good judgement and sound decision making is something that can only be learned with time, exposure and other peoples mistakes. To expect to be given a flying job carrying 100's of passengers just because of the colour of your skin is a very dangerous attitude.

Like they say, Rome wasn't build in one day....but it was destroyed in a couple. Inexperienced pilots MUST be given time to gain the neccessary experience to become good pilots...not just pilots. Getting blacks into the cockpit and getting the figures right will be achieved, but it must not be done with inexperienced pilots just to windowdress.

It sometimesis difficult for me to accept that the roles in my country are reversed, but I am working hard at it. We all want to be successful (or so I believe). Everybody wants to be proud of what they achieved by themselves...not what was given to them. This is especially true with pilots. We are very competative and want to be the best.

Let us not allow the politicians to make us enemies. We pilots, black and white, share the same things......the passion, thrill, excitement and ultimate satisfaction from flight.

Oh I have slipped the surely bonds of earth
and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings.
Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth of sun split clouds
and done a hundred things you have not dreamed of,
wheeled and soared and swung high in the sunlit silence.
Hovering there I've chased the shouting wind aloft
and flung my eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up up the long delirious burning blue,
I've topped the wind swept heights with easy grace
where neither lark nor eagle flew.
And there with silent lifting mind
I've trod the high untrespassed sanctity of space
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

[bman0429]

"I have travelled a bit and read a bit" ...although I see some of your country folk need to read and travel more. No offense is intended but is funny ;)
http://www.vincenot.net/connerie/OnTheStreetsOfAmerica3.wmv

Geez,

Shakin my head, but unsurprised. That is certainly the attitude of many Americans. Invade em, blow em up, set em free, uh where is that again?! Ignorance is bliss in the ole U.S. of A.!

The previous post was well stated and thoughtful. It is really indicative of where peoples heads should be at in regards to the sins of the past!

[shikubaby]

Before anyone of you goes running his mouth (or probably his fingers for those who must be that particular!!!) again, I believe he (or she for that matter) should read the fantastic post by FLYWINGKING. It exhibits wisdom and the only attitude that will benefit us all....

[Treetopflyer]

Bin this thread now or wait for it to go the way of all the other racial tripe? 4HP

Nice to see that this thread will be the first NOT to go that way... thanks to enlightened posts like FlingWingKing's...:ok:

[4HolerPoler]

I agree; remarkably lunatic free thread. The opinion is almost 75% in favor of free speech - I'm closing the poll - carry on with the debate & thanks for keeping it nice.

4HP

[B Sousa]

4hp, you speak too soon......... "I agree; remarkably lunatic free thread."

A beautiful poetic song from FlingWingKing. "enlightened" I think someone mentioned. "Let us not allow the politicians to make us enemies. We pilots, black and white, share the same things......the passion, thrill, excitement and ultimate satisfaction from flight."
Let us not allow.....?? You no longer have a choice.
In the states I always hear that your vote really counts. Then I vote for some moron, as many do, and he does what he wants, not what the public has asked him to do...I think its evident in the polls today. In SA, I believe votes are just something to make things look legitimate.
So should FWKs essay end with.....Now I will stick my head back in the sand and pretend that things will soon get better.....If I dont get carjacked between the airport and home.

" dunno know what's worse being takin from your home and forced into slavery or being a slave in your own home?"
Seems to be the situation for many in SA today....and yes, in many parts of major U.S. cities... Not as evident in the Cape as it is elsewhere, but its bound to move south.

[3rdBogey]

I have a problem with AA.
Many knowledgeable black people from the USA have in the past said: "AA is not a solution, and won't help the previously disadvantaged group. It undermines their feeling of self worth."
If there are sufficient vacancies to select suitably qualified people for a particular activity, then I would go along with AA. BUT, that is NOT the case with the flight deck of airliners in SA.
However, political correctness MUST prevail, not so? One must remember, in the interest of peers eyes,(who will be black in SA) which will be trained on us as to what we say publicly- this will affect our career’s future....... Individually.
If you look at the article about Zimbabwe quoted above, we all wander why this happens..... (Not all)--- Remember, Bob has been VOTED into power, and voted in again time and time again! If the voting population did NOT put a cross next to his name, he would not be there today.
In SA, like many other places in the whole world today, it's PAY BACK TIME!!!
After 350 odd years of the white skinned man being "in charge", it's now "OUR TURN".
I don't mind the previously disadvantaged group running the show, but, sometimes some activities CANNOT be fast-tracked!!!
You agree with fast-tracking on the flight-deck, because it's the only way to save your own position currently.
Would you allow a previously disadvantaged white skinned person living in wherever, who now has been selected as an example of "Brain Surgeon", newly qualified, who did not initially pass his exams and was helped over and over again to pass, to operate on your child's brain??
Remember, if EVER something goes wrong with these AA pilots involved, THEY will never be at fault for what has happened.
If you are black in SA today, it is wonderful. But I still have a problem with fast-tracking people past others, just for the sake of QUOTAS, now!!
When there is more than one candidate applying for a position on the flight deck, and both or all are suitably/correctly qualified, then by all means select the previously disadvantaged majority individual.
By the way, will my children be allowed to call themselves "previously disadvantaged" when they grow up?? Or can only non whites use that angle?
The whole skin colour thing disgusts me to start with. Because, did we not ALL start out together in Africa. One place where we all come from? Now suddenly skin colour IS an issue, not so? So, ARE WE THEN DIFFERENT after all?
In passing, I remember a few years back now, some SAA pilots, cadets I think, (about 5 or so) came forward and said they had cheated at their exams. Later they simply rescinded this and denied it. I always wandered why a group of people would say they have done something wrong of that caliber, then say, "NO, we were joking". What ever came of that issue? Or, must we once again <"Don't go there">????

[FlingWingKing]

"With respect to all the issues around the new SAA, accelerated command etc, I would like to know:
The goverment is planning to attain a 70% black, 30% other ratio in the airline, across the board at every level, I hear.....(remember this is a rumour network)."

Just to refresh your memories, this is what was said right at the beginning of this thread. We dont know for sure whether this is FACT....we assume it is and off course we feel threatended.

I would like to know where government is going to find the black pilots to fill the front 2 seats on SAA aircraft. Maybe I am living in the dark here in Cape Town (as a matter of fact we did a couple of months ago thanx to government's insight into the future demand for electricity), but I do not see enough black pilots being trained to achieve the said figures. If anyone can enlighten me with some facts I would be very appreciative. I once asked our "very esteemed" x-colleague Afriaviation (once again, a belated thank you to 4HP for ridding us of him) to give us figures with regards to representivity of black pilots in SA aviation....his answer....150 out of 3000 CPL pilots are black!!! Can anyone confirm the truth of that statement?

So dont cry wolf too soon............

B Sousa, it is not a question of sticking one's head in the sand and pretend that things will be better soon. It is a question of accepting our situation and finding a compromise that will suit us best. Whether it is to stick around and ride the wave, hoping not to get smashed to pieces in the process, or the other extreme, to go look for a better surfing spot somewhere else. AA is, unfortuanatly for us whities, here to stay. Government made it law. Whether you voted for them or not. I am afraid a couple of white pilots are not going to persuade them otherwise.

I love this country.....Ja Ja, its sounds like a moerse clichè, but I do not want to go work somewhere else. And yes, I am perhaps a bit over optimistic about the future of us white pilots in this country. But I refuse to become negative and distraught, because then I might as well pack my bag and go.

Accelerating people into positions without the neccessary experience is WRONG. That we all agree with....and if there is a black pilot who disagree with me, then I say, "My friend, you are going to kill someone...change your attitude or get out of the flying game."

I want to see SAA, and for that matter South Africa, succeed because this is a great place to be.

Enough said. I have overstayed my welcome on this thread.

[porridge]

I wonder what will happen when they don’t find sufficient AA crews to come forward to fly the aircraft – will they recruit ex-pats as has happened with ATC on contracts to fill the positions rather than give them to the locals?
Everyday I am up in the airways here in the UK I hear the familiar SA accent on the RT, be it Ryanair, Easyjet or those who are on training flights for their JAA IRT’s. Personally I’ve been in progress with 3 SA licence conversions to JAA licenses in the past 3 months or so.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if these experienced ex-Saffers don’t end back home on contracts one day in the future?
The wheel always turns, sometimes you’re on the top of the rotation, sometimes on the bottom; it’s just a matter of time!

[B Sousa]

"It is a question of accepting our situation and finding a compromise that will suit us best. Whether it is to stick around and ride the wave, hoping not to get smashed to pieces in the process, or the other extreme, to go look for a better surfing spot somewhere else. "

Makes a bit more sense now.....You also must consider the Airline industry today is in a real turmoil. For those who don't follow things much let me say many Airline types in the states have lost entire retirement savings plans and are really devastated as they near the end of their careers. That has to follow down to SA.
If your going to stick around, your also going to have to find a place to stuff your money if you want to have something at the other end. It would be very unpleasant to be retired and have nothing to live on in SA. I also think some parts of SA are a great place to retire if you do have something.

"Accelerating people into positions without the neccessary experience is WRONG"
A real key to the failure of AA in many places, even more so in SA... Folks go from the Bush to CEO in the stroke of a pen.....The damage has been done in lots of areas, in Avaition as some others it an be fatal to many.......Med School ??.. eish!!!!.

[bman0429]

I agree that placing people in safety sensitive positions when they aren't capable is a bad idea, but that's not what we are talking about.

AA isn't just some policy put in place to penalize whites. It is about redressing a REAL grievences!

That's the part that demands consideration and debate! So often people want to talk about why a policy is unfair to them personally. As a policy is AA effective?! In some ways yes. It does what is was intened to do. In some ways no, but what is the alternative? Most of the unaffected don't care.

As to the unprepared arguement all around the world there are examples of pilots who are relatively "inexperienced" being placed in the cockpit of airplanes. From cadet programs in countries with no developed GA base to military pilots flying around multimillion dollar jets with massive destructive capabilities there are numerous examples.

[FlingWingKing]

"As to the unprepared arguement all around the world there are examples of pilots who are relatively "inexperienced" being placed in the cockpit of airplanes. From cadet programs in countries with no developed GA base to military pilots flying around multimillion dollar jets with massive destructive capabilities there are numerous examples."

There is a huge difference in putting a relatively "inexperienced" cadet co-pilot in the cockpit with an experienced captain. And that is the real issue here. Accelerating inexperienced co-pilots to command just to get the figures right might end in disaster. Most cadet programs are flawed in the sense that the cadet does not get enough command experience. Apart from the PIC hours he is required to fly in order to get his licence, he is never realy exposed to the decision making process on a first person basis. SAA cadets go from the training school to a feeder airline and then to SAA with mostly co-pilot hours......half of which are deemed "command" hours towards his higher licence.

With regards to "inexperienced" military pilots: They operate in a "war" enviroment where colatoral damage is acceptable. They also seldom fly with 300 passengers onboard!!

AA definatly has a place in aviation, I am not disputing that, but it must be done responsibly. I am of the opinion that no airline will hire a profesional co-pilot. They hire you because you have the potential to be a commander. Commanding an aircraft requires experience, good judgement and sound decision making. The decision-making process takes years to develop, it is not something that can be taught in a classroom.

[fluffyfan]

Have to agree with you FWK, AA is not nice, but its necesary, how else is SA going to address the imbalance, please we have had 10 years now and the ratio of flight crew has barely changed, what other practical methods are there to address this issue, there is no way 70% 30% will be achieved in the near or distant future, simply not enough black pilots. lets just hope the AA is implimented in a controlled fashion

As for experience levels, well I think you will find a great number of SAA Cadets now working as first officers have more relevant experience than a great number of the first officers operating for the likes of CE and 1time, and probably a few of the Captains too, VB pays crap because his crew are expendable and he can replace them tomorrow with a 200h wonder if he so chooses.

[cartexchange]

IAA isn't just some policy put in place to penalize whites. It is about redressing a REAL grievences!.

OK then its about re addressing unbalances and injustices...hmm what about Rwanda and black on black genocide there! is there an AA plan put into place for the Hutu and the Tutsie's!

I'm not going to go in longwinded, But you all know what I mean

[bman0429]

OK then its about re addressing unbalances and injustices...hmm what about Rwanda and black on black genocide there! is there an AA plan put into place for the Hutu and the Tutsie's!
I'm not going to go in longwinded, But you all know what I mean


Uh gee yeah I see what you mean?!

Rawanda is messed up but that is/was a civil war! Also point of fact Hutu's and Tutsie are indigenous to Rawanda.

FWK I should first point out where we agree. AA has a purpose and it is not punitive.

Here's where we disagree: Military pilots hold greater killing capablility to kill than a single screw up by some commercial pilot. He's dead maybe 300+ people are dead in an accident. Military pilots run around many times solo carrying conventional and nuclear weapons. Most scarcely have any total time relative to their civilian counterparts and even few years of experience. And after they do their destructive thing the get to live and do it again.

Cadet programs are what are being used around the world to hire "locals" to create equity in the pilot ranks between the locals and the gringos. IT is usually as you say an experienced Capt with a well trained (if inexperienced FO). Usually that exp. Capt is a Foreigner! Which is where many experienced non natives are finding good paying gigs.

[FlingWingKing]

bman0429, this thread goes about addressing the issues in SAA cockpits, and I can assure you, they do not employ "foreign" captains.

As for the military pilots....they go through a vigorous selection process in order to prevent the trigger happy ones from getting their hands on the destruction that you refer to. Once again, civilian pilots are to military pilots like a strawberry is to a mango. It is two diffirent things. Like I said, military pilots are trained to operate during war situations. They are soldiers obeying orders from the higher ranks and their "killing" is during war.

Civilian pilots are not at war. We are dependant on the general public to use our "bus" service. If we put inexperienced captains in the cockpit, and there is a cockup of some sort where people are killed, that airline will be sued for every cent it has. Public opinion of an airline is very important. After all, they are the one paying our salaries!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

There is another aspect to this of course.
I was recently visiting in England and went to a Prison Reform Trust evening at the House of Lords.
The prison population in England is disproportionate to the extent that a very large percentage of a minority of the population successfully occupy a vastly greater number of places than do the majority. Given that all the population start on a level playing field; it is therefore axiomatic that some people are better at some things than others? QED in so far as aviation is concerned? :confused:

[crew-use-only]

Uh gee yeah I see what you mean?!
Rawanda is messed up but that is/was a civil war! Also point of fact Hutu's and Tutsie are indigenous to Rawanda..

so are you saying that AA does not apply because they are "indigenous"

The whites have been in Africa for hundreds of years, some of them longer than many black tribes, if you take close look you will see that huge immigration started into Africa when the whites settled it and made it into an economic viability.
I know you hate the thought but its a fact and its the truth.
And the reverse has happened in ZIMBABWE, the blacks gained control, the economy is a mess and they are wanting to emigrate. ( for gods sake you cant even get a decent bit of paper to wype your @arse these days)

Anyway this debate has been going on for centuries and people will always have a different view.

I don't think anyone would have any objections to who is flying the aircraft as long as they have the correct and valid skills, not because they are black or white or Indian or a female...... its all to do with skills .........

[JG1]

1. With regard to the employment of low-time black pilots to SAA, I think in reality it's not the experience issue which many here are concerned about, it's the fact that these low-time blacks are 'jumping the queue' and putting more experienced white pilots out of a job. Complaining about low experience is simply a cover for complaining that you are being nobbed by affirmative action. There are hundreds of low-time (250hr) pilots flying commercial jets in Europe.

2. White culture in SA is very different from black culture. Very very different. Blacks and whites here think differently. Lots of whites cannot understand why Mugabe gets voted back in time after time. Lots of blacks can - they see him as the Chief Who Kicked the Whites Out and no matter what he does, or whether or not they like him, due to the inherent respect of heroes and elders in their culture, the majority will continue to support him to the end.

3. Blacks in Zim (and here, I suspect) would rather live in ruins than under 'the white man's yoke' again. The logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners' ie. jungle rule #1.
Consequently no matter what the whites think, to the blacks it has been and always will be an us-against-them thing. In their tribal culture, until as recently as 3 or 4 generations ago, this us-against-them mindset ensured that their different tribes lived in a constant state of aggression. We see that clearly today in SA, it's not just the Black vs White thing, its the Zulu vs Xhosa thing, etc.

4. The whites here, thinking differently, and being a product of a society in Europe which had de-tribalized and learned to compromise many centuries ago, don't think like this. When we voted 'Yes' in the Referendum it was to end apartheid and racism, and to forge a harmonious compromise between all for the betterment of the country/us/me.

5. The transition happened, but it seems that whilst the Whites have been bending over backward to keep their side of the compromise, the Blacks are becoming more and more uncompromising (refer the Tutu speech recently) and are set to impose their policies whether workable or not. Again, the logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners, you fall in line'.

6. The Blacks in SA find life very biased toward them under affirmative action. It is not just preferred employment. If a Black wishes to start a business, he/she gets free grants, preferential (often interest-free) loans, and preferential contracts and contacts. This will remain so, as long as their culture remains 'strongest survives'.

7. Its my belief that the reason there are so few black pilots is because to get to the stage of being employable as an airline pilot (even a 250hr one) takes dedication and a lot of hard work. Since transition if you were a black pilot your future was as rosy as could be, it was almost handed to you on a plate, yet, there is still a significant shortage of black pilots. Why? because although a SAA job would be handed to you on a plate, you had to do some hard work first. No, there is more money to be recieved/taken/applied for under other facets of Affirmative Action - as a Black you can get rich far quicker in other ways. Only someone who has a real passion for aviation would go through the hard work and study required to get to ATPL level.

8. Apart from affirmative action, the other downfall in Africa is the Handout Syndrome which started with sailors long ago handing out free beads/mirrors/what have you to the locals. The White Man has been seen for generations as The Giver/The Provider thus relegating the Black Man to the status of The Taker/The Demander.

9.Unfortunately AA/BEE and the Handout Syndrome fit hand in glove to ensure that the Givers/Providers get fleeced in an optimal way. The Givers/Providers get to pay tax, but have no say in governance - they are turned into economic prisoners. When their powers of Providence wane, they are of no further use and will be chopped. History has shown this over and over.

10. The Black Man is in charge in SA now, the White Man must either overthrow him or leave for greener pastures, there is no compromise. Which is why we hear all the SA accents in all the other regions of the world. There is no compromise, from now on the White Man will provide the loaf and get the breadcrumbs.

11. No matter how you gloss the facts, this is the situation. Personally I have no hatred/dislike/disdain for blacks at all, I just like systems to be optimised. So a biased system based on unworkable principles really get under my skin. Just as Apartheid did.

12. The old Regime also disadvantaged white males in that they had to do National Service - forced to forfeit 2 of the best years of their lives to support the Apartheid Regime. Not only were these two years lost forever - many of those servicemen still bear the psychological scars of that time and many of their lives were, and still are, affected negatively by this experience in a tremendous way.

13. What I'd like to see is all of us just get on with it, forget old grievances, and stop turning the racist past into a racist present. "The past was simple, the present tense, and the future perfect"!

[FlingWingKing]

BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT!!

You have summed it up masterly!

How long before we become Zim? When Zumgabe gets voted in perhaps?

[B Sousa]

JG1...Very Interesting read.........

[crew-use-only]

absolutely fascinating read JG1
One of the best pieces I have seen in ages!

[PAXboy]

Never before have seen the ZA/African situation summed up so well. I have been trying to convey this to my friends in the UK, so that they can understand.

It is one of the interesting facts of human behaviour that, when a group (by class/colour/gender/etc.) have been given a good kicking by their opponents - when they get to be top dog - they will repeat the kicking. On a minor scale, we see this when an individual is abused as a child and will often repeat this in adult life. On a grander scale, Israel is now kicking the Palestinians. This is what humans do.

[AfricanSkies]

As far as the SAA situation goes, if I judge it correctly, some fears are :

That Affirmative Action candidates (Black, female) are to get fast-tracked to Command, bypassing the seniority system;

AA Captains being 'babysat' by more experienced white F/O's whose chances of Command have been reduced to 'extremely remote';

As more AA crew are employed there would be a change in the makeup and therefore common mindset of SAAPA, to the further detriment of standards;

That SAAPA would be weakened by a majority of politically-appointed crew members, leading to its' eventual loss of power (breaking of the union);


and there are probably a few more, but these are the important ones.


To be an SAA pilot is the goal which most pilots in South Africa try to achieve. SAA pilots are renowned for their high standard of training, their high standard of operating, their enviable safety record and not least, their high standard of pay. This has not happened by accident. SAA pilots have set this standard. They stick together and part of this bond is the discipline to maintain these standards.

No matter what the policies of government are, SAA pilots at the present time still hold the reins of power in SAA. If they are to maintain these high standards, remuneration and power in their union and avoid the rot which affirmative action brings, including the points cited above, they still have the power to insist that they and they alone be responsible for crew hiring policies at SAA, through threat of industrial action.

By doing this they will maintain the high standards within SAA, and through a knock-on effect, the standard of the industry in SA, as well as protecting the system from political interference.

[fluffyfan]

JG1 well said, you should send that to a newspaper, a very good summary of how most of us feel.

[birdlady]

JG,

Couldnt have said it better myself. Sums up the situation very nicely :ok: :ok:

[bman0429]

1. With regard to the employment of low-time black pilots to SAA, I think in reality it's not the experience issue which many here are concerned about, it's the fact that these low-time blacks are 'jumping the queue' and putting more experienced white pilots out of a job. Complaining about low experience is simply a cover for complaining that you are being nobbed by affirmative action. There are hundreds of low-time (250hr) pilots flying commercial jets in Europe.
2. White culture in SA is very different from black culture. Very very different. Blacks and whites here think differently. Lots of whites cannot understand why Mugabe gets voted back in time after time. Lots of blacks can - they see him as the Chief Who Kicked the Whites Out and no matter what he does, or whether or not they like him, due to the inherent respect of heroes and elders in their culture, the majority will continue to support him to the end.
3. Blacks in Zim (and here, I suspect) would rather live in ruins than under 'the white man's yoke' again. The logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners' ie. jungle rule #1.
Consequently no matter what the whites think, to the blacks it has been and always will be an us-against-them thing. In their tribal culture, until as recently as 3 or 4 generations ago, this us-against-them mindset ensured that their different tribes lived in a constant state of aggression. We see that clearly today in SA, it's not just the Black vs White thing, its the Zulu vs Xhosa thing, etc.
4. The whites here, thinking differently, and being a product of a society in Europe which had de-tribalized and learned to compromise many centuries ago, don't think like this. When we voted 'Yes' in the Referendum it was to end apartheid and racism, and to forge a harmonious compromise between all for the betterment of the country/us/me.
5. The transition happened, but it seems that whilst the Whites have been bending over backward to keep their side of the compromise, the Blacks are becoming more and more uncompromising (refer the Tutu speech recently) and are set to impose their policies whether workable or not. Again, the logic applied here is not 'what is the best for me/us/the country', it is 'we are the winners, you fall in line'.
6. The Blacks in SA find life very biased toward them under affirmative action. It is not just preferred employment. If a Black wishes to start a business, he/she gets free grants, preferential (often interest-free) loans, and preferential contracts and contacts. This will remain so, as long as their culture remains 'strongest survives'.
7. Its my belief that the reason there are so few black pilots is because to get to the stage of being employable as an airline pilot (even a 250hr one) takes dedication and a lot of hard work. Since transition if you were a black pilot your future was as rosy as could be, it was almost handed to you on a plate, yet, there is still a significant shortage of black pilots. Why? because although a SAA job would be handed to you on a plate, you had to do some hard work first. No, there is more money to be recieved/taken/applied for under other facets of Affirmative Action - as a Black you can get rich far quicker in other ways. Only someone who has a real passion for aviation would go through the hard work and study required to get to ATPL level.
8. Apart from affirmative action, the other downfall in Africa is the Handout Syndrome which started with sailors long ago handing out free beads/mirrors/what have you to the locals. The White Man has been seen for generations as The Giver/The Provider thus relegating the Black Man to the status of The Taker/The Demander.
9.Unfortunately AA/BEE and the Handout Syndrome fit hand in glove to ensure that the Givers/Providers get fleeced in an optimal way. The Givers/Providers get to pay tax, but have no say in governance - they are turned into economic prisoners. When their powers of Providence wane, they are of no further use and will be chopped. History has shown this over and over.
10. The Black Man is in charge in SA now, the White Man must either overthrow him or leave for greener pastures, there is no compromise. Which is why we hear all the SA accents in all the other regions of the world. There is no compromise, from now on the White Man will provide the loaf and get the breadcrumbs.
11. No matter how you gloss the facts, this is the situation. Personally I have no hatred/dislike/disdain for blacks at all, I just like systems to be optimised. So a biased system based on unworkable principles really get under my skin. Just as Apartheid did.
12. The old Regime also disadvantaged white males in that they had to do National Service - forced to forfeit 2 of the best years of their lives to support the Apartheid Regime. Not only were these two years lost forever - many of those servicemen still bear the psychological scars of that time and many of their lives were, and still are, affected negatively by this experience in a tremendous way.
13. What I'd like to see is all of us just get on with it, forget old grievances, and stop turning the racist past into a racist present. "The past was simple, the present tense, and the future perfect"!


JG,

Wow!

I am unsure if I understand the tone of your post, but it comes off rather arrogant!

And the nodding heads in agreement proves something. Whites colonialists (and their descendents) don't feel any culpability for what they have done to Africa and its people. Read that to mean exploit!

Anyone care to disagree?!

The continent of Africa is rich in natural resources yet those resources have been sucked right out of the place for the benefit of white Europeans. This has gone on for centuries! The borders that exist where drawn up by Europeans for the benefit of the Nations that claimed lands they had no right to in the first place. The tribal warfare that the "civilized" are so quick to malign is caused because of national borders drawn up by whites and it doesn't exist in Africa only. The conflicts among different "tribes" in Iraq, India, Pakistan and many others are examples of such. The tribes weren't consulted in the division of the land and they were forced to live amongst each other under an oppressive regieme.

Robert Mugabe is a creation of colonialism and his support is an after effect of that. Anyone's inability to understand this probably stems from the fact that they have never know what it was like to be victimized in your own home. You glorify your leaders faults and all!

Example:

Someone comes into your home by force rapes and sodomizes you steals all of your possesions and then by some remarkable bout of conscience decides to leave and now you want the victim to just shrug and say bygones!

Aparthied wasn't an accident or a mistake. Nor was colonialism. It isn't a history you can wish away. Ten years of freedom and power over their own destiny is not nearly telling.

The white man has never seen the black man as an equal. Not then and not now especially in SA!

"the White Man must either overthrow him or leave for greener pastures, there is no compromise"

Sure there is live as a minority as is your place in that country and fight for repesentation and the better ment of your country for everyone! That's what minorities have to do and just societies arise to that eventually and not with out much pain and struggle.

The problem is white people have never really experienced this, ever! They don't know how to deal with it and it emasculates them as a culture. History has shown a need for whites to dominate (even though they are a minority as a race on this planet)!

SA is a beautiful country and no one can take away the fact that it is what it is today due to the influences of whites. It has a brilliant culture and history and has the potential to be something spectacular. If whites believe that SA is their home then they shouldn't be afraid to stay and see it realize its potential. It needs you! The blacks need you although they may not see it.

Whites SAs aren't victims, but they must stay and stand and becounted. They can be stewards to making the African continent and the African people realize its potential.

But I have digressed from the point of the thread. Can anyone give the numbers for the number of "fast tracked" AA Captains at SAA. Is this a real and present threat or an imagined one?

[PAXboy]

Whilst I understand the reason for AA, the question is - When will it be removed?

If there were N years of apartheid, will there be N years of AA and then back to a neutral balance and allow market forces to establish themselves, as if the previous N + N years of swing had not occurred?

[Propellerpilot]

It was very interesting to read through this whole thread it portrays very well, what is happening in this country and explains different mentalities, maybe not for certain individuals but on a general level.

AA is wrong as it is undemocratic and does not provide equal opportunity for all populations - period. Not once was the presence of our large coloured, malay and indian community in our country mentioned - these are even more affected by AA as the white population.
It is also not correct for people to assume that black=poor.

I myself and many others I know, have gone and are still going through a lot of sacrifice to achieve a basic CPL - working like a dog in a nine to five job for years to realize the goal of flying professionally - flying 2-3 hours a month because the cost of living did not allow for more. But we do this because this is our passion and we live this dream. I accept this because I have started my aviation carreer relativly late (because it took time to jump into a salary group, where I could afford flying - it took studying a different field and aquiring a university degree...). I think things would have been different if there would have been other possibilities directly after school. The point is I am not moaning about this ! - but I do not understand why a black man should not have to go through the same thing? He will achieve his goal if he is serious and is passionate about what he is doing. The same opportunity of finacial aid programmes should apply for a young white kid, coloured kid or whatever his or her race may be, irrelative of percentages, as the individual is not then not merited for his/her personal abilities.

From another perspective I think AA is also not really fair for those it is meant for, as one might think it subjects them to a subtle but intense pressure to prove that they are really fit for those positions. In fact more than one of those that I have come across in training institutions (who over time have actually proven unfit :uhoh: and suddenly dissappeared out of the scene and not paying up their outstanding accounts) have presented a dangerous flair of bold arrogance in their personalities to cover insecurities, namely of fear of being judged or making the wrong impression, instead of retaining a natural humble and modest attitude towards instructors and collegues and being human. We are not flying because we have to prove our egos. But SAA has CRM to sort that kind of stuff out...
I have been around the GA scene in Cape Town - here I have personally not come across ANY black pilots - even in small business jets or turbo-props that belong to black businessmen - they have employed white pilots too. The only exeption I know of is Anglo American Corp. Mentioning the idea to forcefully employ black pilots especially for single pilot ops for charter companys creates a nightmare scenario for the latter - to risk their "multimillion transport investment vehicle" and only source of income to someone pushed through by AA is not an option - it will not happen, they would rather close down the business and do something else.

As closing note I firmly believe there is a way for all of us, maybe not as SAA pilots - aviation makes this big planet smaller... the demand for pilots will increase substancially across the globe - if they don't mess up the whole OIL-Issue in the Middle-East - this is a far more threatening and really worries me, because if hell breaks loose in Iran - we will all be affected - you can consider becoming Captain of a solar-sailingship but that is a topic for another thread... :=

[crew-use-only]

Bman if you think that JG1's post has arrogant undertones then it only reinforces his point! (that black people will never see it)

AA is not practical.

Here in Australia we have had a policy and continue to have a policy where in our government a large percentage of candidates have to be female.

They want to increases the female representation and that has led to some disastrous moves, A person was given the post based on what was between their legs! not their abilities.
The labour party still has this policy and look at what has happened to them, they have the numbers in their party and they have no talent and still cannot win government and they wonder why!

Hopefully SAA will continue to employ and train pilots on their capabilities not the colour of their skin!

[bman0429]

I have yet to hear one person's alternative to AA. The only thing I have heard is maintain the status quo.

Also AA isn't ment to place unqualified people in places they shouldn't be. It is meant to take proactive steps act getting people previously deined access to jobs opportunities. The forementioned policy is called a Quota system and that certainly isn't "fair". But llife rarely ever is.

To all who have posted I really do appreciate the civility shown. It says alot about character. And the only reason I started in on this was because the debate seemed pretty one sided and I love SA! Just love it and I know why its painful for you to want to leave.

I also know what its like to be discriminated against, for real and as a culture. Now many might say that I have done well for myself as a pilot, but I would tell them it certainly had nothing to do with AA. You see cause in this biz we maybe hired for what ever reason (AA, cronyism, nepotism) but your peers will know if you can fly or not and shame on you if you can't.

To be honest I wish I could live in SA and earn a living.

[FlingWingKing]

bman0429, I salute you as the only black pilot (I am assuming you are) posting on this thread, for your honesty and understanding of our situation in this wonderful country. You have made some very valid points and your concern is indeed appreciated.

First let me say again that the post by JG1 was brilliant. If you read his first point you will see that he actually touched the nerve of this whole SAA AA issue. Also read point 11 again. Some of his points might lean towards the extreme side of things, but I think in general he wrote a very balanced post. Off course, you are welcome to disagree.

bman0429 you certainly have valid points regarding the miniral issue in Africa. I for one, fully agree with you that Europe and the USA have been exploiting Africa for decades. They have taken what they wanted and damn the rest. If they coudn't get what they wanted, they just destabilized the particular region and looted the place regardless. There are many examples of this, but we will leave that for another thread.

WOW, we are really digressing from the issue here!!!

"Can anyone give the numbers for the number of "fast tracked" AA Captains at SAA. Is this a real and present threat or an imagined one?"

I know of only 1 black pilot who jumped the queue...127 places that is. In a company with 800 pilots, that was a big jump! The circumstances around that issue is not realy important right now, so I will not elaborate. SAA put together a group to come up with a workable solution to address AA. I have heard that the group recently disintegrated because they could not agree on certain issues. Pity!! Personally I think some of us are crying wolf too soon with regards to fast tracking. SAA just became a full member to Star Alliance who prescribe certain conditions. It is in the interest of SAA to adhere to these conditions. It is also in the interest of the whole STAR network to ensure SAA does.

"I have yet to hear one person's alternative to AA. The only thing I have heard is maintain the status quo."

There is, in my opinion, only one solution to AA in aviation. DO NOT COMPROMISE SAFETY. If you are suitable for the job, regardless your skin colour, you must get it. That is the bottom line. You can NOT fast track people in this industry, or any other where lives are at stake.

[JG1]

Thanks for the kind words, folks.

bman0429, I am sorry you found my post arrogant, I was intending to portray the actual situation as I see and experience it now. (As you may have gathered, from a white man's perspective).

You say that the white man has exploited Africa and Africans. I can see how blacks feel that way - they were living in a place rich in natural resources and the white man came and developed these resources. The white man, with his superior military technology, undeniable technical and organisational superiority and his policies also subjugated the black man, and repressed them.

There is however another perspective to this -

1. Exploitation of Resources - the blacks living in Africa before the white man arrived were not even aware of the existence of most of these resources and were completely unaware of their potential applications. The development of these resources and their associated improvements contributed to the betterment of society as a whole with advancements in engineering, medicine, agriculture, commerce, communications, transport infrastructure, etc. Without the 'exploitation' (which most would call 'development') of these natural resources, advantages such as higher life expectancies, better healthcare, and education would not have come about, and the natives would still be handicapped with high infant mortality rates, little or no healthcare, short life expectancies, subsistence agriculture, and very low standards of education, communication and transport.

2. Subjugation of the Natives - As I mentioned in my previous post, the way of life of the African tribes at the time of the white men's arrival was very warlike. African men were not firemen or bakers or artists, they were warriors. They were brought up to fight and kill the enemy, the other tribes. Little wonder that when the white men arrived, they were attacked by the native Africans. Unhappily for the Africans, their military prowess & technology was behind the state of the art at the time by several hundred centuries. So, yes, they were beaten, and subjugated. It could be argued that the victors were benevolent by not only sparing the vanquished's lives, but by incorporating them into society, and albeit in a limited way, affording them the advantages of developing circumstances.

So, to summarise the Black perspective - the white man came <and the black man attacked him, the white man won> and took the resources, and enslaved the black man.

The European perspective is that humankind lived in a time of exploration and development of the entire globe. In one part of the world (Europe) there existed the most advanced societies on the planet at the time, whose advanced development of their levels of agriculture, commerce, engineering and science led them to expand their frontiers.

Had they discovered more advanced societies in other lands, whose level of development exceeded theirs, in line with the development of all mankind certainly they would have learned from these societies and used their teachings to further European civilisation.

This was not the case. They encountered warlike peoples living in resource-rich lands with levels of developments several millenia behind their own. Consequently, and in line with the insuppressible development of humankind, they annexed these lands and sought to improve them to their state-of-the-art.

It was not exploitation, it was the natural progression of advancement of mankind. For the benefit of all. Note the quantum development leap of the blacks from the pastoral warriors of 4 generations ago to the 21st century jet-captains of today. Such a progression took the europeans perhaps a thousand generations. This 'exploitation' has been an undoubted super-boost to the black race, comparable to us meeting a more advanced extra-terrestrial race today.

On the subject of alternatives to AA, my view is that as much money as possible be spent on providing a free education of the highest quality, to tertiary level or beyond to the previously disadvantaged. This way we get highly qualified, competent individuals who can fulfil their own goals and satisfy the demands of society. Employing incompetents because of their skin colour is not the way forward.

[Metro man]

An Apology To The Black Race
From A White South African

10/27/2004 2:16:17 PM
Arthur Kemp


Commentary -- TO THE BLACK MAN FROM THE WHITE MAN:


We apologize for giving you doctors and free medical care, as a result of which you have been able to survive plagues and catastrophes and grow in numbers;

We apologize for teaching you to read and write, and for building you thousands of schools which we have repaired after you vandalized them and burned them down, After all, if you could not read how could you have learned the words of Karl Marx, Mao Tse_tung, and others who taught you how evil we are and how oppressed you are?

We apologize for building factories and highways and buildings that gave you employment;

We apologize for developing farms which to this day feed the bulk of Africa;

We apologize for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric instead of leaving you wearing the animal skins which you wore before our arrival;

We apologize for taking minerals from the earth which you neither used, nor wanted, nor even knew were there;

We apologize for those among us who have established welfare organizations and have devoted their entire life towards making life richer and better for your people;

We apologize that we have built roads and railroad tracks between towns and cities which you now use every day without thinking;

We apologize for paying the lion's share of taxation while spending less on ourselves than on you;

We apologize for giving you law and order and a strong central government which prevented your own warrior nations like the Zulu and the Matabele from slaughtering black people by the hundreds of thousands as they did year in and year out before we came;

We apologize for teaching you the English language which has opened to you the entire world of European thought, culture, and commerce;

For all these sins we humbly beg forgiveness, and if you will only accept our apology we will be happy to take back all of the above evil and horrible things we have done to you and return to our European homeland.:rolleyes:

[cavortingcheetah]

;)

Above all; we must apologise for not being in too much of a hurry to find a cure for sickle cell anemia?:p

[4HolerPoler]

This thread is heading downhill fast - poll's open again. I have to ask myself - what has this got to do with aviation?

4HP

[cavortingcheetah]

:ugh:

As interesting as it might be to some - nothing. But then there is some thread running on about religion on Pprune and that has about as much to do with aviation as the aeodynamics of a flapping angel.:D

[AfricanSkies]

Most of the posts are on topic - affirmative action - which will inevitably lead to some racial discussion; lets keep it balanced and respectful. :ok:

[AlternativeProcedure]

Well 4HP, I'm glad your not the only one that spotted that, it really has digressed from aviation related issues to constant racial insults. I think this issue is starting to get a little bit old now and seems to be very divisive.

[FlingWingKing]

I must admit that some post did well digress from the issue. However, I think that it is in some ways good to discuss different viewpoints, even if we do digress a bit. I think it might help us to understand each other a bit better.

BUT.............THERE IS NO PLACE HERE FOR RACIAL SLURS!!

If it continues, I am all for HP4 to bin this thread.

If I in any way offended someone, my apologies.

FWK

[fluffyfan]

Which racial slurs are you talking about FWK? I happen to think JG1 wrote a brilliant post, bman0429 then wrote an equally good reply which was also well thought out and gave us his side of things, JG1 then replied with another brilliant post (hard to dispute the facts he stated in his second post).

Where is the problem? maybe the way to solving our problems in SA are to talk about these things and get them out in the open, we are all so scared of offending anyone that nobody says anything and we all harbour deep resentment against eachother.

Well done JG1 and bman0429. 4HP why not let the vote decide the fate of this thread, like it has the fate of SA?

[fluffyfan]

bman0429, you ask what the alternatives to AA are, as I said in a earlier post....there are non....AA is neccessary in order to get this country to where it needs to be (yes SAA and the rest of the airlines need AA), lets just hope its done in a well thought out sane manner, unlike the land redistrubution was done in Zimbabwe.

And sorry one more point, you seem to imply that the worlds problems are all due to the white man imposing colonial boundries, yes that has caused problems, but by no stretch of the imagination was the world a nice peaceful place before the white man came along, just ask Chaka Zulu, or Gengis Khan, they murdered hundreds of thousand as did the Spanish Inquisition and the holocaust. We know very little about African history because it was not recorded, but I think we can assume it was as bloody as the rest of the worlds.

[bman0429]

bman0429, you ask what the alternatives to AA are, as I said in a earlier post....there are non....AA is neccessary in order to get this country to where it needs to be (yes SAA and the rest of the airlines need AA), lets just hope its done in a well thought out sane manner, unlike the land redistrubution was done in Zimbabwe.
And sorry one more point, you seem to imply that the worlds problems are all due to the white man imposing colonial boundries, yes that has caused problems, but by no stretch of the imagination was the world a nice peaceful place before the white man came along, just ask Chaka Zulu, or Gengis Khan, they murdered hundreds of thousand as did the Spanish Inquisition and the holocaust. We know very little about African history because it was not recorded, but I think we can assume it was as bloody as the rest of the worlds.

Hi guys

I guess the motto should be AA its better than nothing?!

I don't think this thread has denegrated into ethnic slurs or name calling. Quite the contrary it has proven to be an opportunity for people with diverging view points from across the planet to share and debate an issue of which they care. Sure we may digress abit, but we must talk about the story of what has come before as it is paramountly relevant to the topic of AA today!

On colonialism. It is/was bad thing. Save the apologies because they are as hollow as the spirit in which the things whites "gave" Africans. The spirit of Altruism was not involved in the exploitation and colonization of the African continent.

The different between development and exploitation is that development treats that which is to be developed with care. Similar to an adult and a child or mentor/mentee relationship. Exploitation is when you take that child and Pimp them out on the street for your own enrichment. I think the latter example is what has been called the "development" of Africa.

JG1,

It is impossible to deny the military superiority of Europe during the time of colonization. It is also hard to deny what they came to Africa for and it wasn't the development of "mankind". It was for selfish geopolitcal power grabs and it wasn't right or fair. It is almost akin to saying that since I live in the US and we are the biggest most powerful military force on the planet perhaps in history, we have the right to invade and take over what ever countries we wish for their resources without any consideration or deference to the people of that land (damn that's not to far from reality is it:sad: ) That wouldn't be right or fair, even though the Dutch have some stuff I really like;) !

Sure the minerals in the ground weren't of great importance to subsitance farmers, but it was their land and their home and they should have been treated and compensated fairly.

I guess my whole point in being here is to really try and appeal to the conscience and compassion of whites out there and say " yeah things are changing rapidly and sometimes not for the good, but don't be afraid don't run away. You are needed! Do not fight with us as we find our way, but participate. Do not try and shape this land in your image help us shape it in one that is ours. Dominoin is not the goal, but Africa must be in charge of its destiny. Warmer and more hospitable people I have yet to find in my travels. Forgiveness is in their hearts as compassion and understanding is in yours."

Colonization could have been so much better and so much more instead it was just as screw job.

I like your proposal of free education as an alternative to AA, but it alone isn't enough. The people making the hiring decision may still hold a bias. The organizational culture maystill hold a bias (as it sometimes appears to). The power must be balanced! Not in a the sense of numbers, but in the sense of shared destiny and interest! That will not happen untill blacks hold positions of power in all aspects of life and in significant amounts. This must be balanced by a respect for minority groups and an inclusive national agenda.

OK off my soap box

Regards

[FlingWingKing]

If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong.

HP4 is on the brink on binning this thread which I happen to think its quite an interresting one and would like to see it continue. I was merely pointing out that we should not engage in any racial insults as AlternativeProcedure pointed out.

So dont attack me.....READ MY POSTS DUDE! I happen to agree with bman0429 AND JG1....and with some of YOUR statements too as a matter of fact.

HP4, why not restart the voting....

[fluffyfan]

Back to the topic.....What are the alternatives to AA, at the moment there are non, why? because the government failed to make a plan 10 years ago, according to the Act it is the company that are responsible for implimenting the AA policy. But the company did nothing, ie the government did nothing.

What they did do was leave it to the pilots to sort out, and the SAA pilots union (SAAPA) are the ones trying to comply with the act and do the companies job for them. What was needed and perhaps a solution for the future instead of AA is for the government to invest heavily on the youth that wish to or show an interest or aptitude for aviation, not only the government, why dont some of the black elite who earn millions (some even fly to work in helicopters ;) ) invest in a flying school / training establishment.

There are lots of alternatives to AA, I personally think that the right place to start is to educate and inform the black youth about aviation, to plant the seed and let it grow then let them find there own way like the vast majority of pilots out there have, however the whole situation has been left so long that the quick fix to the horribly one sided pilot ratio is AA.

And just one more thing, as I have said before, the act encompasses all companies of a certain size, its not just SAA, its all the other airlines as well, thats the law, however its only SAA (with a few token gestures from the others) that are enforcing it at any sort of scale, with the Cadet programme and possibly a few accelerated commands (they are negotiating at the moment about this however last I heard is that this negotiation has fallen apart), to date only a few pilots have had there seniority adjusted because of the past.

[Propellerpilot]

Why not do AA for cadet programmes and give that opportunity to those "less priviledged" that are seemed suiteble for the job. However when it comes to those, that are ready entry pilots, whether they went through the cadet system or through their own means or individual training, they be taken for their level of experience and competence and not by their skin colour.

I have heard that many cadets do not even make it through the program. I have heard from SAA interns that the attitude of some P3's are not even to persue a carreer in aviation - they are quote: "just sitting for the ride, literally sitting jump seat, polishing or laquering their nails, to get some nice cash and then one day become something like a graphic designer". Some are just there because the opportunity was offered to them and not because they would have thought of it themselves and their own aspiration. Sorry but if those rumors I've heard are true - it is ridiculous !

I am happy to see black people coming to our flying club and do their PPL's and CPL's thing like everybody else is and I am sure they will prove that AA is not needed to change things, it will happen by itself sooner or later. I would love to fly with these guys and gals anytime and I know most of my fellow white South Africans would too.

Quote Fluffyfan: "why dont some of the black elite who earn millions (some even fly to work in helicopters ;) ) invest in a flying school / training establishment" Unquote: I think this is a marvelous idea.

[FlingWingKing]

Rightly said fluffyfan and Propellerpilot.

AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system.

The cadet scheme is also flawed in many ways.

1) Most of the cadets are well connected and thus get "selected" for the program. While some of them realy want to fly, a large percentage (as Propellerpilot pointed out) are just there for the ride. Some cadets' fathers are so wealthy that they can afford to buy them a plane, let alone sponser them their CPL's. They arrive there in fancy cars with lot of spending money and an attitude that sucks.

2) A large percentage of cadets find that it is just too hard work and either quit, or get washed because the passion is just not there. They see it as just another job. Those with this attitude arrive at SAA, fat and happy, but dont see a 30 year+ career through...they quit after a while or fall pregnant.

3) The cost involved are too high....I heard a figure of R500 000 per cadet.

4) Cadets block the market for everybody because they are placed at airlines like SAX, Link, Solento, etc to be groomed for SAA. When they eventualy get their appointment at SAA after 3 years at the feeder Airlines, they have approximately 2500 hours but NO command experience.

"There are lots of alternatives to AA, I personally think that the right place to start is to educate and inform the black youth about aviation, to plant the seed and let it grow then let them find there own way like the vast majority of pilots out there have, however the whole situation has been left so long that the quick fix to the horribly one sided pilot ratio is AA."

As a solution to getting the figures right, I think fluffyfan made a spot on observation/comment. Instead of spending R500 000 on one cadet (who most probably wont see his career to the end because he has little passion for what he does) why not spend R50 000 on 10 wannabe's.

Assuming roughly 10 cadets obtain their wings at a cost of R5mil to the taxpayer, why not then spend half the amount, but expose 50 black kids to aviation by giving them a PPL. Select the top 20% and see them through to the feeder airlines, if you must. The rest must fend for themselves, work hard like all the other wannabe's do to get their CPL's, go give instruction and later on find a contract job.

This way the same amout of "cadets" gets pushed into the market, with a possible 40 more to come through the system in due course with a lot of depth due to contract work etc.

[Propellerpilot]

I think FWK has written up a great solution and alternative - I think that would be great it should be refined and presented to the gremiums concerned. It would boost our local flying clubs who do need more members and students and will actually help them survive and help maintain a higher standard of training. It would improve the GA infrastructure as a whole and in the end also our feeder airlines and SAA in the end will benefit.

The R500000 taxpayer money would be far better invested because of the direct return and the standards of pilots actually making it into the airline will be better, as they have more choices.

[AfricanSkies]

What a great idea! Put the R500K into a bursary fund, then hold selections which include exams with questions which someone who has been passionate about aviation from a young age will be able to answer. Not technical things, things like "name 10 types of WWII fighter' and 'what engine did most marks of Spitfire have'? etc, then you will get the right candidates. Give them the money for a PPL, and their CPL exam fees & course fees and from then on its up to them.

For a start you will have ten more black pilots entering the aviation scene, instead of just one who might turn out to be a lemon.

And as FWK said, it helps the whole industry from the ground up, it doesn't constipate it in mid-flow with the injection of cadets into feeder airlines as the current system does.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[flying paddy]

What a great idea. Spread the net wider.

I have always believed that you should look for the child with his face up against the airport fence watching the aircraft. They are the ones with the passion for flight.

I would be a great thing if they where given the chance to fulfill their dreams.

Cheers
Paddy

[B Sousa]

"A person was given the post based on what was between their legs! not their abilities."
Crew Use, could that not be What or Who???

[3rdBogey]

I recently saw a program on TV interviewing different rock/music artists about politics. I loved what Chris Cristofferson(SIC) had to say about the American AdministrationS... "There is only one goverment in the USA: The war goverment!"
Well, I would like to know what ONE Saab Grippen is going to cost the taxpayer. IE Purchase price.Spares stocks.Maintenance costs.Personel training etc....... Who needs teacher/police/nurses?? You've got GUNS to look after you!.....
Now take one of these, and SPONSOR "Previously disadvantaged persons", for the cost of training as a professional pilot. Give back to them, timeously, what they spend towards training-:as they progress. NOT before!
We used to have this.
Can it be faulted?
Why?

[B Sousa]

Fwk Posts:
"If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong."


Then He posts:"AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system."

Racial comments only good if they meet your side of the agenda............??

[porridge]

Quite agree with 3rd Bogey
Now take one of these, and SPONSOR "Previously disadvantaged persons", for the cost of training as a professional pilot. Give back to them, timeously, what they spend towards training-:as they progress. NOT before!
We used to have this.
I benefited from a subsidy for my Grade III back in the early 80's and I only got it after I passed the test having paid for the training myself. I didn't cover it completely but it amounted to about 80% and was most welcome at the time. Was it money well spent by the DCA? Well I'm still instructing and I still have a valid SA Grade II.
I definitely think that something like this would benefit only sponsoring sufficiently motivated people who were previously disadvantaged i.e. start with the PPL; then with the CPL exams passed, then sponsor for the CPL, then the IR and with instructors ratings complete put them back into instructing the next batch coming through. Then with a 1000 hours put them in to the airlines - just like it used to be in the old days for the advantaged!

[FlingWingKing]

Fwk Posts:
"If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong."


Then He posts:"AA figures in aviation will not be achieved because there are just not enough black pilots coming through the system."

Racial comments only good if they meet your side of the agenda............??

There is a huge diffirece in racial "negative" comments and the statement I made (in bold avove). I stated fact and proceeded with a suggestion as to a possible solution to get "enough black pilots coming through the system". It would be appreciated if you would stop "stirring" and maybe contribute with some constructive participation.

FWK

[bman0429]

There is a huge diffirece in racial "negative" comments and the statement I made (in bold avove). I stated fact and proceeded with a suggestion as to a possible solution to get "enough black pilots coming through the system". It would be appreciated if you would stop "stirring" and maybe contribute with some constructive participation.

FWK

B Sousa

Hey FWK is a good guy who's I think ultimately understands that there is a need to address the aims of AA. Whether AA is the ans. is up for debate. Sponsor ship programs sound good, but will it really work on the scale in which we are talkin in SA?

I think what is really needed is exposure and mentorships. People who've been excluded from a field previously may not nessicarily feel as though they can participate in that field going forward. They need to see people that they identify with in those positions. Everyone isn't comfortable being in the vanguard. I think this must be coupled with a cultural change in the work force. Meaning the ideas of superiority vs inferiority must be completely erased from the workplace and those who make policy.

FWK, brother together we can make a better future for us all!

[B Sousa]

"It would be appreciated if you would stop "stirring" and maybe contribute with some constructive participation."
Striing just translates to "Its not your opinion"

"I think ultimately understands that there is a need to address the aims of AA."
Heres a no-brainer. The aim is to replace white with black. End of story. Its not unique to SA and they do not hold a patent on it. It will be here long after we are gone. What would be interesting is to have applicants resumes without name, race, gender on them and see who filters to the top.
No need to have folks offended by the truth....
SAA is also unique in that they live on the taxpayers tit. If that were to go away it would certainly change the ballgame. Based on the managers through there in the past few years it would probably close the book on that airline.
It would also take the Pilot problem away from the taxpayer.
Throughout the world Pilots get jobs based on the resume, the majority of whom have struggled to build that resume. Its been some 10+ years now for those who at that time wanted to fly and few if any have grabbed their own bootstraps to make them viable in the world of aviation. Much easier to reach out and say its not fair.
If you want to replace all SAA crew with Blacks, just do it. The world will understand. Take those applicants through a screening process, train them and Voila, problem solved.
If this thread is any example of how there are no easy answers , let it be a lesson.
Time for the 4hp fireaxe.

[FlingWingKing]

B Sousa, I agree that this thread has outlived itself. Furthermore, I agree that AA is not right, a fact I stated in a previous post. But right or wong, it is here to stay....unfortuanatly. We need to find some way to deal with it.

FACT: there is not enough black pilots to replace the whites....otherwise they would ALL have been at SAA roaming the passages, earning a fat salary...cause if you think about it, that is ultimately what AA is about....enrichment.

I'm out of here....for good this time!!

[fluffyfan]

"If you read this thread very carefully you might notice that there is a bit of a racial "issue" sticking its head out. It has become somewhat racial and some people might have perceived some statements to be very strong."


Well I may be stating the obvious here but the post is about AA how much more racial do you want, why are we all cringing away, if we dont chat about these things there will be no progress.

Heres a no-brainer. The aim is to replace white with black. End of story.

Sorry but I dont agree, its not the aim at all, the aim is to get the ratio correct or at least try to rectify a horribly one sided ratio the best you can, nobody is going to get fired at SAA or anywere else because they are white, hence they are not being replaced.

SAA is also unique in that they live on the taxpayers tit

Yes they do and a few people remind us of this every day on this forum, we all know this, was just wondering if you cared so strongly about the "poor old Taxpayer" issue when SAA was flying 20 passengers in a 747 around the bulge to Israel and a few other allies during the bad old days or is it easier to champion the taxpayer cause now that the regime has changed?.......just a thought

[B Sousa]

"Sorry but I dont agree, its not the aim at all, the aim is to get the ratio correct or at least try to rectify a horribly one sided ratio the best you can, nobody is going to get fired at SAA or anywere else because they are white, hence they are not being replaced."
Fluffy, please..We have that shoved up our backsides in the states." correct the ratio", give me a break. Here in the States that crap has been going on for 50 years and the kids today are still screaming life is not fair to them. Based on your statement its the same thing. What is the Ratio of Black to White in SA?? Given that there will only be a couple left seaters in the whole company with the last name Van Something.
Problem is folks like you believe AA will stop at a magic number and everyone will love everyone.......And if you think some white faces are not getting the boot in SA to make room for others off the street, you had better wake up. Maybe not yet so at SAA but its happening in the real world.

"cared so strongly about the "poor old Taxpayer" issue when SAA was flying 20 passengers in a 747"
Sounds like a serious management problem. Could it have then been 20 pax and some serious cargo?? If you want to go back a few years you may even find that SAA may have been funded by the taxpayers, but it was also doing a ton of "Government Business" Think theres a thread out on a crash that sheds a little light on that. Maybe even a "government" Airline subsidized by some paying passengers.
Taxpayers around the world, not just SA should NOT be in any commercial business with the Government managing things. Governments traditionally cannot manage economically.

[fluffyfan]

just wrote a nice reply but as soon as I submitted the post it told me to log on and dumped the reply........will reply soon

[B Sousa]

I'll bet it was a doozy.........Im prepared ,but its a forum, a soapbox. The threads that contain the most passion are the longest.