Can a type rating extend ME/IR?

[OBK!]

Hi,

I have an expired Multi Engine IR and I'm curious as to what I need in order to start a type rating. I read in Lasors that you just need to have had an IR within the past 5 years prior to comencing a type rating, however I've also been told you need a current MultiEngine IR to begin training?

Can anyone clarify?

Many thanks

[BillieBob]

LASORS is wrong, as it so often is. JAR-FCL 1.250(a)(2) states that "An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi-pilot aeroplane type shall have a valid multi-engine instrument rating (A)." JAR-FCL 1.185 states that "An IR(A) is valid for one year...."

Edited to say: 30 minutes after posting this I received notification that LASORS 2006 had been published to the CAA website - On checking the relevant Section I find that this particular error has been corrected (it's only taken them 3 years!!). LASORS now states that a 'current and valid' MEIR is a pre-requisite for the first MPA type rating.

[OBK!]

Cheers BillieBob, that clears that up!

[lookoutbelow]

Your IR does not need to be current to start a Multi Pilot TR Course, it needs to have been current within the last five years as stated in Lasors.

Your IR will be renewed in your License Skills Test (LST), the test taken in the SIM prior to Base Training, once you have completed Base Training you will have the relevant requirements to apply to the CAA for the issue of the TR onto your license. Therefore when applying for the issue of TR you have a current IR and operate within JAR FCL requirements.

Regards, Lookoutbelow

[OBK!]

Ah, I'm now back where I started.

If I understand correctly, I need one to apply for a type rating, but I need to have had one in the last five years to START a type rating?

Right?

Cheers

[BillieBob]

lookoutbelow - You clearly did not bother to take the time to read the preceding posts or LASORS 2006 before posting. Your post is incorrect, a current and valid multi-engine IR is a pre-requisite to enter a first multi-pilot aeroplane type rating course.

OBK! - Wrong. You must have a valid (i.e. revalidated in the last 12 months) ME instrument rating before starting the course.

[lookoutbelow]

Billie Bob,

I stand corrected then. I had read the previous posts but hadn't noticed the change in section F of Lasors.

The situation is however very strange as in the past you always did need a current IR to begin your first MPA TR, this changed about two years ago when the CAA amended LASORS to say that you were only required to have held a current IR within 5 Years preceeding the date of application for your first MPA TR. Which was the case this July when I applied for my first MPA TR WITHOUT a valid ME IR! The CAA have for some reason made a U turn it seems. To get the definative answer and to rule out the possibility of a miss print etc give PLD a call and they will be happy to clarify.......

[Localiser Green]

a current and valid multi-engine IR is a pre-requisite to enter a first multi-pilot aeroplane type rating course

But LASORS 2006 does not say that, it says that:-

An applicant for the first type rating for a MPA shall
provide evidence that the following requirements have
been met:-

a)......

b) hold a current and valid multi-engine Instrument
Rating (Aeroplanes). This is only a requirement for
an initial MPA type rating and not subsequent type
ratings;

You are an applicant for the type rating once you have completed it, and hence have renewed your IR in the sim as part of the LST. You therefore have a current and valid MEIR on application for the rating.

I have this confirmed in writing from the CAA only 2 weeks ago, having asked them if the TRTO was correct to say that I did not have to renew my IR (issued in the last 5 years but not 'current') before commencing the TR course:

"I can confirm that the TRTO is correct. The requirement for an initial Multi Pilot Type Rating is to have held a current ME IR in the 5 years prior to the course commencement date"

Clear as mud :ok:

[lookoutbelow]

I thought this was the case and fully agree with you localiser green. It certainly applied for my first MPA TR in July this year. The IR is renewed by the TRE (Or as used to be known IRE) in the LST. Then once base training is complete you walk into the CAA with your LST form (IR renewal hence current), TR Course completion certificate, MCC Certificate and of course the fee and they add the type to your license.

[BillieBob]

Localiser Green - LASORS is notorious for getting it wrong, it's riddled with errors like this. Notice that the statement "An applicant for the first type rating........." appears immediately below the heading "Pre-requisite conditions for training". JAR-FCL1 is quite clear, as I've quoted above, that you must have a valid ME instrument rating to start a first MPA type rating course.

All of the TRTOs that I work for have been told by their CAA Licensing Inspectors that they are to make a valid (as defined by JAR-FCL1) MEIR a pre-requisite for a first MPA type rating course.

[OBK!]

Hi BillieBob,

Localiser Green seems to have confirmed what he said with CAA:


I have this confirmed in writing from the CAA only 2 weeks ago, having asked them if the TRTO was correct to say that I did not have to renew my IR (issued in the last 5 years but not 'current') before commencing the TR course:

"I can confirm that the TRTO is correct. The requirement for an initial Multi Pilot Type Rating is to have held a current ME IR in the 5 years prior to the course commencement date"

[Megaton]

I completed my first type-rating on a MPA earlier this year without a current MEIR. CAA were happy enough to add the new type to my licence.

[OBK!]

It would seem you don't need a current IR to start a type rating. I'm starting on 20th Feb with a large UK based charter airline and I haven't got a current IR. I've been told it will be renewed during my type rating.

Just thought I'd clear things up for anyone who was curious.

Cheers

[G-MANN]

Whats an MPA Ham Phisted??

G-MANN

[Megaton]

Multi-pilot aircraft.

[european champion]

In case that i start a type rating while my ME/IR is still valid but it elapses a few days later during my ground or simulator training would i have to renew it separately or would the final check ride count as a ME/IR renewal?

[porridge]

To the best of my knowledge - no. It can however count as your 1 hour dual with an instructor for the renewal of your SEP class rating subject to you meeting all the other requirements.

[Ingo1]

My ME/IR elapsed a couple of months ago and I will start a typerating in a few weeks. I intend to save the money I would have paid for a renewal because I will have get my ME/IR after the checkride anyway.
That is what I have been told.

[ABO944]

I was under the impression that you needed to have a valid ME/IR BEFORE undertaking your first type rating ???:confused:

Perhaps I'm wrong ?

[portsharbourflyer]

Remember that the initial ME/ IR you do in a light twin is a single pilot multi engine IR.

If you do a type rating on a multi crew aircraft (I assume you are referring to multi crew type ratings and not single crew rating aircraft like a King Air or Cheyenne) then when the type rating is issued you will also be issued a multi crew IR, therefore the type rating check does not renew your single pilot IR. However once you have a job on a multi crew aircraft you will no longer need the single pilot IR.
If you wanted to keep your single pilot IR current you would still need to do a renewal in the sim (fnpt2) or aircraft.

[Ingo1]

I will do a Kingair typerating but maybe the topicstarter will do a multicrew typerating?

[european champion]

Yes i am thinking to do a multi crew type rating.

[FougaMagister]

Portsharbourflyer is right: while one needs a valid ME/IR (SPA) before starting a type rating on a multi-pilot aeroplane, once the type rating LST has been successfully passed, you are issued with a shiny ME/IR (MPA) rating, therefore there is no need to keep the ME/IR (SPA) current.

Also, remember that the CAA now requires that every other ME/IR (SPA) renewal should be done in the actual aircraft, therefore requiring more money; however, if you renew your ME/IR on the aircraft, you can combine the IR renewal flight with an MEP renewal and kill two birds with one stone.

In a nutshell, a type rating does not extend an ME/IR (SPA), it replaces it.

Cheers

[flyboyike]

In case that i start a type rating while my ME/IR is still valid but it elapses a few days later during my ground or simulator training would i have to renew it separately or would the final check ride count as a ME/IR renewal?


In the US, it would count as a renewal, provided you did approaches and holds on your checkride, that is to say it was an IFR checkride.

[Grungefuttock]

The Instrument rating revalidations are separate.
An instrument rating in a multi pilot aeroplane is Type Specific and does not include privileges in a SEP or MEP Class of aeroplane. A MEP single crew IR includes privileges in a SEP. An IR in an SEP does not allow privileges in a MEP.
If you want to fly for public transport in a multi-crew aeroplane you must hold a Certificate of Revalidation on each and every type!
Expensive

[Mercenary Pilot]

My ME/IR elapsed a couple of months ago and I will start a typerating in a few weeks. I intend to save the money I would have paid for a renewal because I will have get my ME/IR after the checkride anyway.
That is what I have been told.

We'll I think you may find your type-rating will be invalid then! You need a current ME/IR for your initial TR. :confused: Check it out properly Ingo1 because different JAA states have different rules regarding the Kingair. In Sweden is the Kingair classed as an MPA or not?

[portsharbourflyer]

Do not get current and valid muddled, I believe to start a multi crew type rating you need a valid SPA ME/IR, but it doesn't necessarily need to be current. An IR is valid for five years, but to retain its priveliges you need to renew/revalidate on an annual basis to keep it current. Hence it can be valid but not current.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Do not get current and valid muddled

I Didnt:rolleyes: Stop pretending you know what your talking about!

Pre-requisite conditions for training
An applicant for the first type rating for a MPA shall
provide evidence that the following requirements have
been met:-

a) have completed at least 100 hours as
pilot-in-command of aeroplanes;

b) hold a current and valid multi-engine Instrument
Rating (Aeroplanes). This is only a requirement for
an initial MPA type rating and not subsequent type
ratings;

c) hold a certificate of satisfactory completion of a
multi-crew co-operation (MCC) course (this
requirement is not applicable to those who have
attended a TRTO course which includes MCC).
For full details on the MCC Course and MCC
credits can be found at Section F10.

d) have passed the professional flight crew
examinations at ATPL level.

[Cutoff]

Having spoken to the CAA on this subject with the LASORS information to hand, in order to get a MPA IR issued (type rating) you need to have a CURRENT and VALID ME IR Single Pilot at the time you start your type rating, it can however, lapse during trianing and not be renewed and providing you pass the MPA type rating you are eligible for its issue. This is for the first type rating, for subsequent it does not matter.

[Ingo1]

Mercenary pilot:
In Sweden the Kingair is a SPA but most of the operators fly in a two pilot concept where both pilots logg the time.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Hmmm. I think the rules for the Kingair in the UK are probably the same as if it was a MPA in regards to an initial TR but I can’t be 100% sure. I would definitely check with your National Aviation Authority before spending your money. Last thing you need is your TR to be invalid!

[BillieBob]

The BE200 is an SPA and is so treated in the UK. It is not necessary to hold a valid IR to commence a BE200 type rating course.

The uncertainty regarding the requirement to hold a valid MEIR prior to commencing the first MPA type rating is due to one of the many cock-ups that the UK CAA made (and continue to make) when producing LASORS. The requirements of JAR-FCL 1 are quite clear - JAR-FCL 1.250(a)(2) states that a pre entry requirement for a first MPA type rating course is "a valid multi-engine instrument rating (A)" and JAR-FCL 1.185(a) states that "An instrument rating is valid for one year". There is no distinction under JARs between 'valid' and 'current', so why the UK CAA insist on continuing to use both terms in LASORS, confusing the hell out of everyone, defies explanation.

[Ingo1]

Actually, I have had another SPA (multi-turbine) typerating a couple of years ago so this is not my initial typerating, if that would make a difference?
I will call them up just in case!

[Mercenary Pilot]

so why the UK CAA insist on continuing to use both terms in LASORS, confusing the hell out of everyone, defies explanation.

Yeah but when did that stop them! :p

[portsharbourflyer]

The way I always interpreted the ruling was the from the point of doing the initial IR it is current for 12 months, that is you can exercise your IR privileges for 12 months. If you choose not to renew it after 12 months then from the point of the initial IR test you have a five year period where the renewal can be done by any IR examiner. If you go over five years without a renewal then the renewal has to be done by a CAA staff examiner (essentially redoing the initial IR test). Hence I always thought this five year period referred to the validity period of the IR, where as current referred to the period where you can exercise its privileges after a renewal.

[european champion]

Mercenary Pilot according to those requirements my IR has to be valid when commencing my type rating but it doesnt matter if it expires during my training for the rating,so in that case i should be fine.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I'd get written conformation from the CAA via E-mail if I were you. For the sake of a couple of hours in a sim renewing your IR its hardly worth risking it anyway.

[european champion]

Ok i think i got it,if i do the type rating as long as my ME/IR (on single pilot airplane)
is valid when starting my training then after finishing the training i will get a ME/IR for multi pilot airplane and the endorsement of the aircraft type.
Does that mean that my Multi Engine class rating is renewed or would i have to renew this separately?

[Mercenary Pilot]

It would be seperate because your ME is actually an MEP i.e. Multi Engine Piston rating.

[european champion]

I called CAA and i got the answer,they say that if i do a type rating i also get an IR that is valid for one year for Multi Pilot Aircraft,the SPA IR has nothing to do with it,if i want to renew it i have to do the renewal separately on a single pilot aircraft.But they didnt mention anything that the Multi Engine Class rating would be renewed during my type rating training,i think Mercenary is right,this would have to be done separately.

[3legs]

If you complete a type rating on a MPA and you have renewed your IR on type can you still excercise the privilages of your IR when flying privately? Or do you have to keep the MEP/IR current as well?

Thanks

3legs

[BillieBob]

To commence training for a first multi-pilot type rating, the candidate must hold a valid multi-engine instrument rating. JAR-FCL 1 states that an instrument rating is valid for 12 months and so the IR must have been issued, re-validated or renewed in the 12 months preceding the first day of the MPA type rating course.

The Licensing Skill Test for the MPA type rating includes a validation of the instrument rating only on that type. The MEIR for single-pilot aeroplanes is not affected and, if required, must be re-validated on a SPA separately from the type specific MPA IR.

Similarly, an instrument rating valid on, say, a B737, is not valid on any other aeroplane type and, if multiple type ratings are held, the IR for each type must be revalidated separately.

So -

An IR validated on a multi-engine, single pilot aeroplane is valid for 12 months on any single pilot aeroplane.

An IR validated on a single-engine, single pilot aeroplane is valid for 12 months on any single-engine, single-pilot aeroplane.

An IR validated on a multi-pilot aeroplane is valid for 12 months only on the aeroplane type in which it was re-validated