Best to Approach and Land a PA28-180 Cherokee

[RoosterBooster]

Hi ya,

I wonder if anyone can help me in this rather awkward situation. I converted to a PA28-180 Cherokee from a C-172 about a year ago. I originally managed to sort it reasonably well but have not been flying for a few months. I now don’t seem to be able to land itconfidently. I just can’t seem to flare at the right time. I think I’m not looking at the right place to judge my height etc.

Can anyone suggest the best way to set up an approach and perform a good safe landing on a PA28-180 Cherokee. Feel free to mention the approach speeds you’re using etc.

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Thanks guys.

RB

[IMC007]

Hi RB

You mention the PA28 180 and also Cherokee, the 2 are not the same although the same family. The Piper family consists of:-

PA28 140 = Cherokee
PA28 160 = Warrior
PA28 181 = Archer

There is quite a difference in the landing technique for the Archer than the other two, the Archer is slippery, does not slow down quickley and will float for ever as opposed to the other two whose wing will quickley loose lift and will drop onto the runway.

If you are referring to the Cherokee (PA28 140) then fly the Circuit at 2400 rpm and accept whatever speed that gives you (normally about 85Kts). Turn onto base and reduce power smoothly down to about 1600 - 1700 rpm and hold the nose up to bleed the speed of, when in flap limiting speed deploy 2 stages of flap and don't let the nose drop (again this is another area where there is a difference, the Archer, the nose will go up when you deploy flap, the other two nose will go down) and trim to hold a speed of 70kts (trim is the key here, she should be trimmed to be able to fly down hands off) - adjust power as required but smoothly and small amounts.

Turn onto final and when lined up and at the correct glide path and 70kts deploy the last stage of flap (if using it) and trim again to hold that 70kts (hands off). Continue down maintaining 70kts until over the airport 'fence' when you can reduce the speed further to 65Kts (you don't have to, you can continue down all the way at 70kts). Now when you are about 10 feet of the ground smoothly reduce the power to idle (slowly) and at the same time raise the nose to fly her straight and level then look at the far end of the runway slightly to the left and watch for that sink, as soon as you see/feel it ease back on the stick in small increments and hold to stop her descending and continue this until she touches down.

The other thing you should consider if you are not already doing it is to sit on a cushion as I have always found the instrument panel very high on the piper family compared to Cessna's and other makes and therefore you see less in the flare on a piper than a cessna which affects the judgement, try the cushion, I know it helped many of my students to get that flare and touch down right.

If flying the Archer (PA28 181) add 5kts to the base and final set up as per the cherokee but she will be harder to slow down and will float for ever especially if only using 2 stages of flap, so there can be a tendancy to ballon on the archers.

Hope that helps, happy landing.

[Keygrip]

IMC - Don't you like the 151? Why no credit?

[RoosterBooster]

IMC,

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain. The cushion I'll definitely try, I'm 5ft6 and do find the vis over the panel quite restrictive.

I’ve just check the aircraft details, I does say PA28-180 Cherokee. It’s quite old, if that makes sense for the type.

I’ll try your tip in my next trip.

Keep em coming guys.

Ta, RB

[ORBITAL]

There is a PA Cherokee 180.
The main difference between the Cherokee and Warrior is the wing , the Cherokee has a smaller wing [SLAB] and tends not to float as much.
Landing the Cherokee is about getting the speed right , 65 kts approach is right 2 stages flap and full flap on short final if not to much crosswind.
Keep a bit of power on during the round out and slowly close throttle during the flare [they tend to sink fast if power reduced to quickly]

[Dude~]

IMC007 wrote:
when in flap limiting speed deploy 2 stages of flap and don't let the nose drop (again this is another area where there is a difference, the Archer, the nose will go up when you deploy flap, the other two nose will go down)

Sorry but there is no way the nose will go down when you extend flap on any PA28. Certainly on the Warrior the nose will pitch up very sharply when extending flaps and not using the elevator to control it. Many people confuse the initial pitching tendancy with the resultant new nose low attitude required to maintain level flight compared to flapless.

[IMC007]

Dude

By holding the nose up ie holding the same external attitude when deploying 2 stages of flap (and as you have correctly said the nose in a cherokee will adopt a lower nose attitude) allows the speed to bleed of to that 70kts at which point you trim. If you allow the nose attitude to drop when deploying flap then it will take longer for the speed to bleed of and as you have more drag a descent will commence, the whole point of base leg is to get your refernece speed, 70kts in this case, start your descent and then trim, not start descending whilst still trying to get your 70kts.

The Archer on the other hand will adopt a nose up tendency when flap is deployed, so again ease forward on the stick to hold the attitude, get your speed, start your descent and trim.

[homeguard]

RoosterBooster
No tricks are required but with reference to correct approach speeds use the correct speed indicated in the POH which will no doubt be in MPH as will be the ASI.
With all the Cherokee series the wing is a 'slab wing' or as the americans call it a 'Hersey Bar' wing (a parallel cord) which do not have a tendency to float to the the extent that the later and greater span and tapered wing of the Warrior/Archer but will certainly not float to the extent of the Cessna that you are used to.
Having said all that a characteristic of most aircraft with stabilators - different from say the Cessna you are used to flying with a tail plane and elevator -is that there can be a distinctive loss of pitch control at low airspeed and the nose can drop quite suddenly.
1. make sure that you hold off at the correct speed and height.
2. The PA28-180 has a very long straight nose. Look at the profile of a C172 and you will see that the nose profile curves down. You may be reluctanct to raise the nose attitude of the PA28-180 sufficiently high in eye line attitude and therefore will be landing heavily on the nose wheel. Doing so will cause a 'porpoise' and loss of control.
3. Remember that the larger more powerful 180hp engine has a much coarser prop and if you snatch the power to idle on hold off as you may be used to doing in the C172 the loss of speed and pitch down will be very marked, therefore hold off and smoothly reduce power allowing the main wheels to settle on before closing the throttle.
4. The PA28-180 will PITCH DOWN when flap is lowered

[Dah Dah...Dit]

Homeguard,

Thanks for your rather enlightening tips 2&3 - I hadn't really thought about those issues.

However, just before I go completely mad, when initially deploying flaps (stage 1&2 atleast) in S&L on a PA28-180, the nose of the a/c will most definitely pitch up! Rather opposite to say a PA 38 - which will most definitely pitch down!

Any other theories most welcome.

DahDah

[Dude~]

Like I said, if you don't touch the control column when extending flap, all PA28s will pitch nose up. Not to be confused with the need to lower the nose to maintain altitude.

Homeguard, I don't know what kind of PA28-180 you fly but all the ones I teach on most definately pitch up with flap.

[P.Pilcher]

I have had this sort of question asked on numerous occasions as a club instructor and I have, after saying much of what has been said above, suggested a couple of dual circuits. Invariably the person concerned has flown two good circuits ending with two safe landings - often suprising themselves. The problem is confidence. As said pilots no longer had to worry about what happened because there was an instructor present, they flew and landed confidently in the way they had been taught. I was invariably assured afterwards that they no longer had problems.

P.P.

[homeguard]

Dude
The Warrior and Archer series pitch up but many other PA28's such as the PA28-140 and PA28-180 Cherokees pitch down when flap is lowered. Is the aircraft that you fly a PA28-181 Archer rather than PA28-180 Cherokee. There does seem to be some confusion with names.
All PA28 aircraft certainly do not pitch up when flap is lowered!

[Dude~]

Well I stand corrected, indeed it is a 181 Archer that I fly along with the 161 and 151 Warrior, all of which pitch up with flap. I shall look forward to experiencing a Cherokee. Thought I understood the PA28 variants fairly well...:uhoh: !!

[Oktas8]

Just a thought for the pitch up & down people:

(1) In a low wing aircraft, application of flap will tend to cause a pitch down.
(2) In a high wing aircraft, application of flap will tend to cause a pitch up.
This is because the increase of drag at a low point (high point) on the airframe will give a pitch down (pitch up) tendency.

(3) In an aircraft where the tailplane is in the downwash of the wing, application of flap will tend to cause pitch up. This is because downwash increases with flap application.

(For those thinking "why?" consider this: Relative airflow from the wing will be approaching the tailplane from ahead & above it. The tailplane will be operating with negative angle of incidence, and generate a downwards lift force which will increase with increased downwash.)

- T-tail aircraft such as the Arrow and Tomahawk have tailplanes well clear of downwash, so might be expected to pitch down with flap application.
- High-wing Cessnas and similar aircraft, where the tailplane is squarely in the wing's downwash, experience (3) quite strongly, so might be expected to pitch up with flap application.
- Warriors and similar have middling effects, because the stabilator is affected by the wing's downwash but is not in the strongest part of it. You might have to go and fly them to figure out whether point (1) or point (3) wins out when the pilot extends flap!

- Designers use lots of subtle tricks to minimise trim changes with flap, so all of the above is only a crude explanation... :ok:

[Centaurus]

Most manufacturer's POH landing performance tables assume throttle off at 50 feet. This is perfectly safe providing the correct airspeed is attained at that point. Leaving partial power into the flare in order to attain a smooth touchdown has its drawbacks - primarily the elevators are very sensitive due to the slipstream effect and thus a balloon may occur and also the extended float is undesirable.

Unless the manufacturer's POH states otherwise, the throttle should be fully closed as the aircraft is flared for landing. This is especially important if the idle RPM is found to be higher than the POH figure during engine run up before departure. This is because high idle RPM leads to the problems described above. Record the defect in the maintenance document.

[jamestkirk]

It does both.

Initially a pitch down due to the rearward movement of the CP.

Then a pitch up due to increased effective angle of attack.

Someone is bound to come back with an argument to that. Before you do, check your Principles of Flight ATPL (or similar) notes.

[homeguard]

Many factors will prevail for a particular type but, staying with the basic principles. The question arises; why there is a difference from type to type, in that some aeroplanes pitch up and some pitch down?
This is simply owing to the relation of the coificient of drag in balance with the other three forces. The effective lever of total drag on a high wing aeroplane will remain quite long and therefore very effective even when flap is lowered (increased drag) resulting in a pitch up. Albeit that the lowering of the flap has reduced the effective lever arm the total drag is of course increased.
It was quite common then that on many low wing aircraft the effective pitch up lever arm of the thrust/drag ratio became so miner that the Lift and Weight elements became dominent and the aircraft pitched down. Quite attractive with regard to the stalling angle of attack. However not so attractive with regard to landing when the pilot had to overcome this pitch down dominance to 'flare' when landing. The pitch down also had the effect of increasing the stalling speed owing to the increased loading from the additional negative lift of the tailplane required when raising the nose.
Piper and others later reverted to arranging the forces such as to create a pitch up moment when flap is lowered. Such being considered more desirable.

[RoosterBooster]

Thanks Guys for your comments and helpful advice. I've got a flight during this coming weekend, so will try out some of your comments/suggestions.
One thing that has come to light is that I don't look in the right areas.
Cheers once again.
RB