Spin recovery no longer taught

[studentpilotmcuk]

Hi all I was talking with my friends with my up and coming stalls and spins excersise when I learned that spinning the aircraft and spin recovery are no longer taught as it put people off flying.

I was wondering what everyone thought about student pilots not being taught spin recovery.

I have flown gliders for many years and I can remember my instructor always drumming into me that you use rudder to stop the spin and you use rudder to pick the wing up when the wing drops.

My opinion is that it is that is second nature to use aileron to pick the wing up, that is why you practice this again and again so that it becomes second nature to use rudder no aileron.

Therefore I feel it is crucial to learn how to recover from a spin so if it ever happens you dont add to the situation by using aileron.

what does everyone feel about this.

Kind regards safe flying :)

[booke23]

Hmmm.......it is an interesting debate.

I was shown a spin when i trained for my PPL, and to be honest it was so bloody frightening (to a low hour student) that I didn't learn anything from it!

I would suggest that the vast majority of PPL holders tend to fly certified aircraft with very docile stall behaviour. To unintentionally stall in such an aircraft you'd have to be asleep at the yoke.....the warnings are very obvious. Getting such an aircraft to spin...even when you want it to....takes some doing.

I do think if you intend to fly slightly more sporting/non certified aircraft then some spin recovery lessons might be a good idea.

It goes without saying, if you fly aeros you should be able to recover from any spin (erect or inverted) as a matter of instinct.

On balance I think the current practice of teaching stall/spin awareness/avoidance is probably a good course of action.

[C-dog]

Goodness, hasn't spinning been off the syllabus for 20-odd years now?

I got my PPL in the States before then and we were taught to recognise & correct the incipient spin. Actual spinning was long off the US syllabus. However on my return to the UK the first thing I did was to go up with an instructor for a couple of lessons in spin recovery.

However I agree with your thoughts on how unnatural it is to lift the wing with opposite rudder - it's the bane of my biennial check ride!:(

[flybymike]

Spin training has been out of the UK syllabus since 1984 and out of the FAA syllabus since 1949!

And just wait till the instructor forumites pick up on that old chestnut of "picking up a wing with rudder" This thread will run and run and run and...... :zzz:

["aux vaches"]

glider pilots (both ab initio and solo pilots undergoing continuation training) are all taught spin entry and recovery as routine. Gliders loose roughly 400 feet per turn and recovery is VERY prompt. The emphasis is on recognising situations which may lead to an accidental spin (under banked over ruddered final turn, failed winch launch, gusts in thermals) and learning the correct recovery action.

recovery from stall with wing drop is taught with NO REFERENCE to the use of rudder ie stick centrally forward, NO AILERON, regain flying speed return to the normal gliding attitude. Inexperienced pilots may stall with wing drop through poorly coordinated flying so expecting them to recover with highly coordinated flying (including the use of rudder) seems unrealistic. More experienced pilots may well choose to use toprudder to prevent further yaw and apparently prevent the dropped wing going further during recovery.

Glider pilots in thermals choose to fly with high bank angles, a high angle of attack and speeds close to the stall speed for that configuration (within 5 to 10 knots of the stall) This is because they want the highest climbing performance in thermals (excessive speeds mean bigger radius turns and poor or absent climb rates)

This is totally unlike powered flying where students are taught over in that part of the envelope lies stalling and autorotation SO DONT EVER GO THERE.

Aviation is littered with examples of simulation training causing far more problems than the real crisis ever did (practice asymmetric approaches in the canberra anyone?) So if spins are likely to happen and training to deal with it is low (not absent) risk - why not - especially as recovery from accidental spins is quite possible from fairly low heights (circuit height) in gliders. Powered flying = different story

"aux vaches"

[Sedbergh]

Picking up wing with rudder doesn't appear in BGA gliding training these days.

Recovery from incipient & full spins is still taught - and especially from the slow, under-banked, over-ruddered turn = "this is how you kill yourself trying to squeeze in the final turn when you're too low"

[A and C]

As an instructor I can't see how I can let someone fly an aircraft without teaching recovery from ALL the situations that are LIKELY to happen.

My attitude to spinning hardend when a stall spin awareness excecise turned into a full blown spin due to the gross mis-handling of a student who was "just doing" A revision trip prior to a skills test.

The guy's reaction to the spin was to let go of the controls and shout " you have control!". If I had not been in the aircraft the penalty for is lack of training would have been death.

It is all well and good teaching avoidance but when it all goes wrong without spin recovery trainning you are dead..................... I dont think that I can send pilots out into the big bad world without the means to protect themself's from the unexpected.

[IO540]

In normal GA operations, the only place one should ever spin UNintentionally is on a base to final turn, and then you are about 1000ft too low for a recovery, so you will die anyway.

That's what the FAA found from its accident stats, and this is one of the factors which led to it certifying the Cirrus (no officially demonstrated spin recovery capability) and its BRS chute. A chute would save a number of lives whereas spin recovery would not have saved any, well about 0.3% of fatals if I recall.

The only other way to spin a normal aircraft is if climbing to somewhere above its certified operating ceiling (when Vs reaches your TAS) at which point it will stall, and you could spin. But unless you are doing this stupid pointless dangerous exercise above a mountain of just the right height, you will have plenty of height and, on a Cirrus, you pull the chute...

So I think spin recovery teaching isn't worth doing. I did have it BTW, loads of it, as a result of having a rather freewheeling instructor who used to do it with trial lessons, occassionally returning with white-faced passengers :O

[Whirlybird]

From what I've heard, spin recovery training was taken off the syllabus as more people were dying from the training going wrong than were ever likely to from getting into an inadvertant spin. That makes a lot of sense. However, I decided a few years after I got my PPL(A) that I wanted to do it, for safety reasons, just in case.....

I hated it. I was scared stiff, then I got airsick and we had to abandon it. Second session, I got to like it...then I got airsick again! But I'm very glad I did it. However, I think doing that with new PPLs would be counter-productive, scare the **** out of all but the most gungho of them, and they probably wouldn't learn a lot. What would be the point?

But having said that, I'd very strongly recommend that everyone book a session with an instructor (or two, if you've got a weak stomach like me) and do it after you get your PPL. You ought to know what it feels like and what to do, it's a good co-ordination exercise, and it could save your life.

[IO540]

I think that more lives would be saved by teaching people to always have the plane trimmed to the desired speed.

It was only some time after getting my PPL that I discovered what the trim actually does... it sets the speed at which the plane wants to fly in the absence of any pitch input from the pilot. Discovering this amazing little nugget of Masonic-level knowledge drastically reduces pilot workload in all phases of flight (except a spiral dive, perhaps) and incidentally prevents the most dangerous and perhaps the most common PPL student error: allowing the speed to decay to a dangerous level on final and just before.

But no, the standard teaching appears to be that the trim wheel is used to take out the yoke pressure. That's true also of course but isn't the point.

[stiknruda]

if the aeroplane is always flown in a balanced manner (ie the slip ball is always in the middle) then the aircraft can not spin. Even if the speed decays and the aeroplane stalls it will not spin unless the aircraft is out of balance. Mishandling the rudder will cause the aircraft to spin.

Stik

[Aussie Andy]

I agree with all the reasons why they no longer teach spinning on the PPL(A) course - and the "spin avoidance" messages ("don't use aileron when close to the stall; beware of risk of stall/spin on approach" etc) came through loud and clear. I also am careful to think carefully when doing steep-turns (typically in respone to pax requests for photos etc) bearing in mind the real risk of a high-speed stall in the turn.

Yet I also think that there is benefit to PPLs with a few hours / years up their sleaves post-training (even those of us that essentially only fly docile types such as PA28, C172 etc) to experience spins and learn to recover: I just think its one of those things that extends you as a pilot and adds to the bag of skills and experience. I agree with Whirly that it would probably have put me off had I dont it early in the PPL, or even just after PPL, and there were many instructors I knew who refused to teach it. I too had become afraid of even having it demonstrated, until recently when I was persuaded by a friendly local instructor that it really was high-time I did this... see http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19869 for a brief write-up and discussion "in the other place"...

Andy :ok:

[CamelPilot]

There you have it! But what if?

I personally think it is crass that spin recovery is no longer taught. IMHO it should for without it you will could have grave difficulty it getting the sequence recovery right.

Some aeroplanes won't spin. I have tried a few but those that do, like the Chipmunk, have had more than their share of fatals. The Chippies for example require that you must have FULL forward stick for recovery, whereas in other types just central control column will suffice after applying opposite rudder, then centering the rudder then pulling out of the dive.

Some aircraft spin slowly, some spin fast and some take more than one turn to recover. A fast spin can be disorientating to anyone - it certainly will be to a novice who has never experienced one.

I cannot hold with finding out how to recover when you have not be taught. Before the first man ever to have discovered the correct recovery, Captain Parkes (I believe) at either Netheravon or Upavon, generally crashed.

[Aussie Andy]

I personally think it is crass that spin recovery is no longer taughtBut they are, e.g. when people do aeros in types like the chippie - the debate has been whether they should be taught at PPL level.

Andy

[IO540]

Well I think that if you fly a Chipmunk then you need to know about spins, but that's where the context of the discussion comes in :O

You also need to know about spins if you fly an Extra 300, a Pitts Special, etc.

[Mike Cross]

I was taught spin recovery on gliders and as part of my PPL. The killer is the wing drop off the final turn (you won't live long enough for it to develope into a spin).

While most aircraft will recover from a spin with correct technique it doesn't mean that it's a good idea to deliberately do it. I've been in a deliberately induced spin in a Beagle Pup 150 that went very flat and from which it was not possible for the instructor and I to extricate ourselves using the published recovery technique. The RAF have had similar issues with prolonged spinning.

I've also spun a Tomahawk and the creaking and groaning from the back end was extremely unsettling.

By all means do it in a suitable aircraft, particularly if you are going to indulge in aerobatics, but don't think you can enthusiastically throw the average tourer or training aircraft into a spin with impunity. They're generally so docile that the violence you might use on the controls to get them to spin could result in overstressing.

Mike

[flybymike]

Mike, I'm curious. What was the published spin recovery technique in the Beagle pup 150? and what unpublished technique did you have to use?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

There seems to be a misconception here that only low speed will cause a stall and perhaps a spin. It's actually exceeding the max permissable angle of attack (AoA) that stalls the wing - I've stalled at 130knts IAS (pulling through the fourth quater of a loop in the Yak 52 - it flicked, a horizontal spin) and plenty of times seen near-zero airspeed on the dial and not stalled (floating over the top of a loop in the Chippy, for instance).

Low speed can be an indication of too high an AoA, but you can have low speeds at low AoA, and high speeds at high AoA. Once the wing exceeds that critical angle (and for any given wing, the angle is always the same regardless of speed, loading etc), it stalls. If the stall is assymetric, you'll spin.

Those on here who've said demo of a spin and recovery teach little or nothing are probably correct. Best chance of avoiding the stall/spin is to think 'AoA' when you fly - something perhaps beyond the syllabus of the PPL. Best way to learn it is to learn aeros. The aeros pilot thinks AoA all the time, including during that base-to-final turn. It doesn't guarantee it'll never happen mainly because light aeroplanes don't have AoA indicators - they seem to be the preserve of fast jets and Concorde. There's quite q few instruments on the Chippy panel I'd gladly swap for an AoA indicator. :hmm:

SSD

[greeners]

I've been in a deliberately induced spin in a Beagle Pup 150 that went very flat and from which it was not possible for the instructor and I to extricate ourselves using the published recovery technique. The RAF have had similar issues with prolonged spinning.
The RAF 'issues' with the Bulldog involved high rotational spins where the standard Bulldog spin recovery did not work and pilots jumped out at Min Abandon Height. Trials at Boscombe showed that not holding the stick in the fully aft position could induce this type of spin, and the recommended recovery is to (re)apply full pro-spin control input and then carry out the standard Bulldog spin recovery. RAF Bulldog QFIs had to practice this on a regular basis; we do too.
Alan Cassidy subsequently wrote a somewhat controversial article suggesting that the huge Bulldog canopy blocks large parts of the tail in the spin, masking the elevator and rudder and reducing their effectiveness. He proposed 'blowing' the tail with power, making the controls more effective.

[wombat13]

In normal GA operations, the only place one should ever spin UNintentionally is on a base to final turn, and then you are about 1000ft too low for a recovery, so you will die anyway.

This is close to all that needs to be said on spinning. All that I would add is that you are not in the mindset for spinning when it happens, thus you are not in the mindset of recovery. Second, you will almost certainly have flap deployed and exceeding vne, never mind vfe, is a real (read distinct) possibility at the back end of the recovery.

So even if you pull a rabbit out of the hat and recover when spinning on turning final, you will rip a flap off.

Good luck with the post spin recovery recovery - if you get my meaning.

The Wombat

PS - I am proud to admit my spinning session in a Grob 115 scared the sh1t out of me and made me sick.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Best chance of avoiding the stall/spin is to think 'AoA' when you fly - something perhaps beyond the syllabus of the PPL.

This is the whole point, though, isn't it? AoA and an understanding of its importance are critical to learning to be a safe pilot. If PPLs can't handle it, they shouldn't be PPLs. It should be the foundation of PPL training and an exam paper dedicated to the fundametnals of Stick and Rudder by Langewiesche should be compulsory.

QDM

[Mike Cross]

flybymike and greeners

Interesting:-

It was 30 years ago but if I remember aright the standard technique was:-

Close throttle
Centralise the controls
Stick progressively forward
Full opposite rudder until the rotation stops
Recover from the dive.

What happened in this case was that the instructor was dissatisfied with my namby-pamby attempts at getting it into a full-blooded spin and did an entry from a very nose up attitude, with power, and with full control deflections (stick back in one corner and full opposite rudder).

When I was unable to effect a recovery she tried and failed too. What did it was, as Alan Cassidy's article suggests, a blast of power.

My take FWIW is this:-

Recovery requires you to unstall the wing, which in turn requires the AoA to be reduced. The pupose of the progressive forward stick is to get the nose down and the tail up so the thing starts to pick up some forward speed and the AoA is reduced below the stalling angle.

In our case we had diddly squat airflow over the controls and a high rate of rotation trying to keep us flat. With little rearward airflow the elevators were ineffective. A blast of propwash over the depressed elevators lifted the tail and got the recovery started.

If you look at a Chipmunk or Tiger Moth you will see some horizontal strakes forward of the tailplane, sometimes misleadingly referred to as anti-spin strakes. My understanding is not that they prevent spins, rather that they give a bit more horizontal tail area, helping to lift the tail when the airflow is predominantly upward, as it is in a flat spin.

Mike

[strafer]

mainly because light aeroplanes don't have AoA indicators - they seem to be the preserve of fast jets and ConcordeAnd also the Wright Flyer!

[QDMQDMQDM]

To hoots of derision I got hold of an AoA indicator for the cub, but it has never been fitted.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58646&highlight=bacon+saver

Four years on, I still think it would be a fascinating, useful and instructive exercise. Here is a good article on AoA indicators:

http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Instrumentation/AngleOfAttackInd/AngleOfAttackInd.html

QDM

[foxmoth]

It was 30 years ago but if I remember aright the standard technique was:-

Close throttle
Centralise the controls
Stick progressively forward
Full opposite rudder until the rotation stops
Recover from the dive.

Mike,
I think you will find you should swap the "Stick forward" and "Full opposite rudder" round to get the correct sequence. Also control centralised comes after the spin stops though the stick should normaly be central (i.e. no aileron) as it is moved forward.
Close throttle
Full opposite rudder
Stick progressively forward until the rotation stops.
Centralise the controls
Recover from the dive.

[Mike Cross]

Well I did say it was 30 years ago!

[greeners]

You surely can't be old enough, Mike! ;)

[flyboyike]

I was taught the PARE acronym.

Power out
Ailerons level
Rudder full opposite the rotation
Elevator full down

[Whirlybird]

Doesn't what you do depend to some extent on aircraft type?

[Fuji Abound]

I think the key comment here is that spin training should be linked with the type of aircraft flown. In most training types it is difficult or virtually impossible to encourage the aircraft to spin. This being the case there seems little point teaching or even demonstrating a recovery from a situation that is highly unlikely to happen.

Practically since very few pilots train on their own type and even then when they do they are likely to be benign there would sem to be no justification for including spin training in the syllabus.

However, there are types on which I would suggest spin training should be mandatory even if the intention is not to aero. Fujis for example are aerobatic - +6, -4 and cleared for most basic manoeuvers however the stall is very benign with almost no wing drop. Unless the pilot knows exactly what he is doing they are difficult to spin. Compare and contrast this with an Extra for example - the spin whilst predictable is more likely to "catch out" the untrained.

Of course if you have any intention what so ever of flying aeros you must undertake spinning training at the very least and you should regularly spin the aircraft. Know the recovery and entry for your type, it is very dangerous to assume they are all the same or one recovery technique will always work. The standard recovery will work on most type, but that is not good enough.

Finally if you want to spin, whether you are training for your PPL or not, excercise some caution about who you get to demonstrate a spin and ensure they are using a "suitable" aircraft. You will either hate it or love it :) , but it will be an experience.

[Ptkay]

I was lucky to do my PPL on Morane MS885, and now fly my own Socata Rallye 150. Except PZL Koliber I have never flown any other aricraft, and don't wish to...
The above mentioned family of aircraft is almost impossible to get into spin. The automatic slats pop out as soon as you try AoA, which would make you stall or spin. But one of my CFI, test pilot for PZL, managed to spin a Koliber, but recovery was almost impossible then...
So, I never trained any spin, I never expect to be in one, but therefore I never wish to fly any other machine, than my Rallye... (Maybe a Cirrus with chute).
So I will stick to my "tin parachute" rather than do spin training...

[egbt]

that you use rudder to stop the spin and you use rudder to pick the wing up when the wing drops.
It might be a good idea to read the AAIB report into the loss of G-FORS with 2 lives, probably casued by practising this.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/march_2006/slingsby_t67c_firefly__g_fors.cfm

Summary:

An instructor and his student were conducting a training flight when the aircraft was seen to enter a spin. The aircraft was still in a spin when it impacted the ground. There was no evidence of a mechanical problem; however, it is possible that the engine might have stopped during the spin. Whilst it was not possible to establish what the instructor planned to do on this flight, the investigation concluded that the aircraft probably entered an unintentional spin during an exercise involving oscillatory stalling. This particular exercise is not part of the UK Private Pilot’s Licence syllabus. As this exercise is considered inappropriate for ab initio flying training, a recommendation has been made to the CAA to ensure that flying instructors do not include oscillatory stalling during early flying training.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I would add is that you are not in the mindset for spinning when it happens, thus you are not in the mindset of recovery.

This where 'thinking AoA' is the lifesaver. If you have that mindset, then as soon as the aeroplane falls out from under you (or preferably just before it does - there are subtle clues) you have that stick nailed forward to unload the wing and you don't spin. If you do that imediately, chances are you'll live. There isn't time to think about it - it has to be instinctive and that only comes from having been there many many times at safe heights.

To the pilot who isn't flying (thinking - or has the mindset of) AoA, the instinct is to pull back - the very worst thing you can do.

SSD

[pilgrim flyer]

The aeros pilot thinks AoA all the time, including during that base-to-final turn. It doesn't guarantee it'll never happen mainly because light aeroplanes don't have AoA indicators - they seem to be the preserve of fast jets and Concorde. There's quite q few instruments on the Chippy panel I'd gladly swap for an AoA indicator.:hmm:
SSD[/QUOTE]

SSD You have an AoA indicator in every aircraft you fly- it's called the stick/yoke, the wing will stall with it in the same position regarless of speed/nose attitude/stall warner/buffet/any other symptom you care to mention.

There are threads about stalling and spinning in the FI forum which dispel moist of the myths - some of which re-appear here.

I don't propose to unpick all of them, but if you only remember this - if when pulling the stick back the nose doesn't pitch up then you are stalled- (works the other way upside down) - then you have the basis of all you need to know.

Strongly recomend some lessons with an instructor to sort out any doubts/fears. I believe Greeners runs a good outfit.

As for unspinable 'tame' trainers, my FI examiner demoed quite a nice one in a Warrior 3 up on my test..

PF

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

SSD You have an AoA indicator in every aircraft you fly- it's called the stick/yoke, the wing will stall with it in the same position regarless of speed/nose attitude/stall warner/buffet/any other symptom you care to mention.

Yes, I know. I've read 'Stick & Rudder'. However, I've yet to fly an aeroplane with an instrumented stick.


if when pulling the stick back the nose doesn't pitch up then you are stalled- (works the other way upside down) - then you have the basis of all you need to know.

Quite right. But on that base to final turn, it's too late to use that as a clue. The stick is coming back v-e-r-y slowly. By the time you notice it's no onger pitching the aeroplane up by the few degress a second you are dialling in, it may well have departed.

SSD

[stiknruda]

I wasn't going to post again on this thread as so much good stuff has been wrtitten and a few myths have been proven false...................

But PilgrimFly has it totally right:-

I can only stall my aeroplane at two stick positions, regardless of attitude and speed and can therefore only spin it IF the rudder input is so configured to ameliarate spinning.

Inverted spinning from an errect entry ( stick fwd to stall and full rudder) is quite an interesting and certainly memorable ride! Inverted spinning from inverted is quite enough, generally.

The comments about about "ailerons neutral" in previous posts are very obviously aeroplane specific instructions. In my particular mount, I generally accelerate the spin (errect or inverted) with in-spin aileron; flatten it with out-spin aileron and to recover if I have moved from central to out-spin or in-spin - I usually combine opposite rudder with opposite aileron then aileron neutral, before popping the stick forward

Very obviously if I've applied power to flatten the spin then this has to come off before I start anything in the preceeding paragraph.

For competition spins there are ways of ending the spin exactly on heading that I couldn't possibly divulge here!

Stik

[foxmoth]

When I said normally "no ailerons" in my post I should of course have added that this was:-
a) Standard spin recovery and the POH should be read and complied with when flying any particular aircraft.
b) may be used to modify the spin - but only when you know what you are doing (or with someone that does).:ok:

[englishal]

The Rallye's aeilerons remain effective right into the stall, and in theory you could just "falling leaf" to the ground and walk away - urban myth says this has been done in the past anyway.

Interestingly my Rallye is cleared for spins (as well as loops, rolls, stall turns and a few others....)........

[Ptkay]

The Rallye's aeilerons remain effective right into the stall, and in theory you could just "falling leaf" to the ground and walk away - urban myth says this has been done in the past anyway.
Interestingly my Rallye is cleared for spins (as well as loops, rolls, stall turns and a few others....)........

The aeilons are slated (like Fowler flaps), and realy work well all the way,
the "falling leaf" landings were demontrated many times by Socata test
pilots at air shows.

Maybe your Rallye is a special one... ;)

(...mine is plain mean of transportation...) :)

[Confabulous]

MC, was that the recovery technique that included unstrapping and holding yourself against the instrument panel to move the CoG forward? I've heard it works, not one for the fainthearted though.

[mckrll]

A quick thought from the Canadian PPL syllabus.

Spins are not required to be demonstrated on the checkride but do have to be taught and have their own lesson in the syllabus (Ex 13) between Stalls and Spirals.

The book reason for doing it is "to learn recognition, avoidance and recovery." To quote my instructor, I wouldn't want to be in the air with a pilot who hadn't experienced and learnt how to recover from a stall.

IMHO the recovery goes suffieciently against instinct that all PPLs - who may well be flying in the same airspace as me - should know how to deal with an occurrence, however unlikely.

Just my 0.02.

Andrew

[Mike Cross]

MC, was that the recovery technique that included unstrapping and holding yourself against the instrument panel to move the CoG forward? I've heard it works, not one for the fainthearted though.I'll have you know that 30 years ago I was positively sylph-like! I left it to the instructor (she was bigger than me)