Question on Pilot Incapacitation/what to do

[cws]

Dear Colleages,
I have a question and would like to have your opinion and knowledge on this matter.
What are your regulations in case of a pilot incapacition in a two man cockpit?
Are you required to state immediately mayday, and land at the nearest suitable airport or is it feasible to continue alone to your final destination if the other pilot does not need immediate medical attention?
There was just now such a case in my company and the opinions vary but i could not find some binding informations on required actions to be taken. I personally think that it is the safer course of action if the other pilot is in no immediate need of an doctor to continue to your home base instead of landing your ship alone in an unknown airport with no assistance in a country you might not want to be.Not to speak of the operational problems evolving from such a diversion.
Looking forward for your inputs,
happy landings

[FlapsOne]

I really don't think you could ever have a 'rule' as such as it depends on so many different things.

You just have to make the best assessment you can, with the best information available at the time.

Sorry to be vague, but that's the nature of the topic.

[cws]

supposedly the CAA has a standpoint that you are in violation if you continue the flight once you are aware of the incapacitation although making a diversion all on yourself into a remote airfield without an medical urgency makes no sense to me.

[Dream Land]

Sure you have to think of the passengers, but what about the poor bloke in the other seat, he might need some medical assistance?:eek:

[issi noho]

you're never going to get a straight answer to this. You would have to consider all available options at the time. If PNF does not need medical help, will he be able to play a role later, whats wx like pres posn and remainder of the route. complexity/familiarity with airfields en route and serviceability of ac. how well equipped are you to handle the aircraft in the event of failure. Can you monitor rt and get wx on box 2 without risk of missing a call. How well do you feel?

The ANo requires pilots to be in their positions at certain times of the flight, as has been mentioned, this can no longer be the case so you are responsible for ensuring the breech of legislation is as short as poss, but it may still be that the most suitable airfield is your destination. What ever you do make sure you can justify it when you land, bear in mind that those who debrief you have a lot longer to think about the options than you did.

Operational considerations have there place but remember the words 'suitable' airport and look at the BA010 div thread on R and N. If it is important to land somebody else can worry about getting it out again.

[zerozero]

Just because your fellow crew member has turned white doesn't mean CRM doesn't apply.

There may be resources behind the cockpit door.

And remember to always get a second opinion.:8

[Clandestino]

Two things here make me a little bit sad and fairly mad. First, our young colleague CWS finds himself in situation where there are no clearly set rules, let alone checklists, for dealing with crew incapacitation. Second, our not-so-young coleague issi noho states that one can't get straight answers on question to divert or not to divert with CM incapacitation.

Yeah, right.

What's this nonsense about "incapacitated but does not need medical help"? Incapacitation is good indication that medical attention will be needed so get one as soon as possible. Try with "is there a doctor on board?" but get the plane on the ground as soon as it's practicable. Definitively go down on first suitable airport, if it's your destination, go there but under no circumstances pass suitable field below your route. Suitable means with enough rwy, with good enough wx and medical team ready. And for your incapacitated CM sake, get priority handling from ATC. Shout mayday, say "declaring emergency" or elaborately explain what happened and your intentions but by all means get it!

How well are you equipped to handle the aircraft in the event of failure? Well if you're not well enough equipped, you shouldn't be type rated in first place! To get my TR I had to deal with capt incap at rotation followed by flight to T/O alternate, luckilly in a sim. But it was 5yrs ago, maybe the rules & regs are relaxed nowadays and I'm getting obsolete. If you don't have DHC crew onboard you're now first, last and only line of defense in cockpit. AND YOU HAVE EMERGENCY, REMEMBER? No need to listen to wx on box2, ask ATC it's CRM! And don't worry about breaking some ANOs (you won't be breaking any, anyway), now you have only 2 concerns: safety of your plane & PAX and your significant cockpit other's health.

To cut the long story short: where I fly I'm obliged by ops manual and air law to land ASAP in case of pax medical problems. Now to bend this rule by saying "well it's crew and maybe incapacitation isn't a medical thing" is so :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Hand Solo]

There's an unofficial rule in BA that you start your stopwatch and call for the cabin crew. When the cabin crew arrive you say "GET THAT DEAD B*****D OUT OF MY SEAT!" then you start logging P1 time from the moment the skipper carked it.:E

[StudentInDebt]

Solo, we have a similar checklist but we also call ops on HF to make sure we're getting paid the appropriate increases in salary, sector pay and flight pay!!:cool:

[None]

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Staying-Current-by-Dan-Manningham-1980_W0QQitemZ6915099183QQcategoryZ2228QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewI tem
Staying Current, by Dan Manningham, has an excellent discussion concerning Pilot Incapacitation.

[rubik101]

This situation has always given me pause for thought. If the FO is simply choking on a bit of breakfast and can't breathe he is sure to become incapacitaed very soon. What are the Cabin Crew told to do if a pilot becomes incapacited?
Strap him in, move his seat to the rear, put him on Oxygen if required then resume service! Rules follwed to the letter and some time later the poor guy/girl dies from asphyxiation.
Get the pilot on the floor, back slaps, dig around with a biro in the throat, CRP, 100% Oxygen, trained medical help from the cabin, whatever it takes. The counter argument to this is that the door would have to be opened; so ephing what? Have a Doctor visit the flight deck!! Heaven forbid!!
Our procedures are they the guy/girl stays in the seat and dies. Sorry!!
Any of you have opinions one way or the other about the value of a human life over the percieved threat from terrorists on my flight from Paris to Rome?

[Bealzebub]

I think this is one of those questions for which the best answer is to apply the common sense your company expected when they employed or promoted you. Clearly there are degrees of incapacitation for which the responses might vary.

At the one extreme if the pilot is so incapacitated that they can no longer carry out their function to any degree, and there is no relief pilot available then it should normally be treated in the same way as if any other aircraft system was down to "no redundancy", that is land at the nearest suitable airport.

If the crewmember needs or is likely to need medical attention then the same course of action would also likely result in an early decision to divert.

On the other hand if the crew member is suffering spasmodic or temporary incapacitation, or would be able to realistically perform their function in the event the other pilot became incapacitated then it may be acceptable to continue.

There are so many variables and degrees of severity that it is not possible to pre-judge or define a course of action for all scenarios. However if the incapitation is serious, or there is sufficient doubt then the best course of action is to take the safest course of action and that would normally be to divert and land at the nearest suitable airport ( with emphasis on the word suitable as it may apply to the overall requirements of the scenario). don't hesitate (if necessary) to declare a mayday, as that should provide the suitable level of response and priority that the situation requires. Don't consider the operational difficulties such a course of action may result in. That is not the priority in this situation and it is no different from the many other things that can and do throw up the same difficulties.

I do not want to discuss anything that has security implications on an open forum for obvious reasons, however the best use of common sense would not be in vane.

[Centaurus]

Many operators have a rule that only the captain will conduct a rejected take off. To that end, during simulator training, the first officer will not be given the opportunity to demonstrate his competency at the rejected take off handling from the RH seat. This is a status thing in some airlines rather than an operational issue.

Depending on speed attained at time of event, type of incapacitation suffered by the captain and perhaps other things, it may be safer for the first officer to abort the take off run rather than take the aircraft into the air with an incapacitated captain. An abort conducted from the RH seat is different to an abort from the LH seat in terms of left or right hand on the throttles and distance to reach the speed brake lever.

If operators train flight deck crews for actions in event of incapacitation, the subject must be considered important. That said, the first officer must therefore be competent at rejecting a take off from his position. It has nothing to do with the perceived status of the captain but all to do with both pilots being competent to bring the aircraft to a safe stop from either seat.

[JW411]

I was always given to believe that the first thing to do in the event of pilot incapacitation was to check the incapacitated crew member's position on the seniority list.

If he/she is below you then you should consider landing at the nearest suitable airfield but if the contrary is the case, then you should seriously consider whether you really want to save him/her!

[skiesfull]

1. declare a mayday.
2. ensure the aircraft is flying safely - use all automatics available ( inc. autoland)
3. get assistance from cabin crew - takes 2 people to remove dead-weight adult.
4. land at nearest SUITABLE airfield i.e preferably a familiar one
5. sort through his/her wallet before some other b*gg*r does.
6. contact company to tell them of your improved seniority!

[JW411]

skiesfull:

A very good summary but you forgot mention pinching his shoes/flying boots!