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Lord_Flashhart
17th Apr 2006, 14:58
Following a very reasonable letter to BA news from a First Officer the BA cabin crew union's (BASSA) forum has been inundated with threats to use eye drops to poison the person involved.

The letter questioned the effiency of cabin crew rostering and has been met with comments such as ME THINKS EYE DROPS IN THE COFFEE!!! WATCH UR FOOD AND DRINK VERY CAREFULLY MR xxxxxx.

This is not the first time that there has been such a threat on this site.

I have just been told by a freind who is well connected that the posts have been copied and there is serious consideration being given to a complaint to the Metropolitan Police and the CAA.

Rainboe
17th Apr 2006, 15:09
Talking to BA Cabin Crew over the years at times when their tongues were loosened with alcohol (not rare occasions!), it struck me how many proudly bragged, or knew of someone, who had 'fixed' pilots drink or food because of perceived sleights or whatever! I was absolutely staggered that people could be so stupid, but from the number of reports, I know it happened, and some of the old dragons would not shirk from doing it to pilots they disliked. I know for myself I have experienced sudden and explosive, and instantly vanishing, stomach upsets (and inflight!). Fortunately I have retired from that institution with no apparent lasting damage, but just possibly slightly radioactive, but not due to cabin crew 'food additives' I think!

Yes it does happen, and no, nobody is interested!

BTSM
17th Apr 2006, 15:24
Somone said the police are already involved, anyone know?

OzzieO
17th Apr 2006, 17:01
Lord Flashhart sorry but you need to be corrected. Inundated with threats would imply a number of threats have been made.

One comment was made. Get it right mate. It was a comment made in jest.

Da Dog
17th Apr 2006, 17:09
Ossie O, I disagree, the comment was/is full of intent. For the record a complaint to the police has been made.

OzzieO
17th Apr 2006, 17:14
DD I for one find the comment immature and childish. The point of my post was to correct LF he has made it sound like a number of threats were made - this was not the case.

I would be very surprised if the police treated it seriously but you never know.

atyourcervix73
17th Apr 2006, 17:14
Anecdotally, there have been at least a dozen alleged instances of this kind of behaviour at BA in the last 5 years or so.
As a current flight-deck member I cannot begin to comprehend the kind of stupidity that this kind of behaviour entails. From my own conversations with cabin crew, and from those who get a bit "chatty" after a few drinks down route I have come to the conclusion that it is a small minority of bitter individuals, most of whom bear little resemblance to the vast majority of utterly professional cabin crew.

In my opinion those members of cabin crew that condone and do nothing about this activity, are every bit as foolish and reckless, as those who actually perpetrate what is in point of fact a criminal act :yuk:

Eddy
17th Apr 2006, 17:19
Forgive me, but what a horribly misleading thread this is.

A tongue-in-cheek comment made on what should be a secure and private forum has been taken and blown out of proportion. I'm sorry to admit that I work in a company where the rift between the flight crew and cabin crew communities is large and growing. Sadly, a lot of the animosity stems from the Cabin Crew corner but this comment shouldn't be thought of as anything more than lighthearted and, again, very much tongue-in-cheek.

The suggestion that Cabin Crew would "poison" or in any way contaminate the food/drink of our Flight Crew colleagues is just ridiculous.

That's not to say there aren't a few bad apples out there - but I doubt any of them would be foolish enough to publicly outline their plans. Indeed, the people who have engaged in this activity in the past shouldn't be allowed to have their feet hit the floor before being swiftly tossed from Compass Centre, but to make a mountain out of this veritable mole hill just seems a little, um, over sensitive.

British Airways cabin crew have a bad enough name as it is - the last thing we need is those who aren't armed with all of the facts coming here, reading your post and imagining something sinister.

It's a matter of days before this hits The Dail Mail, I guarantee!

Da Dog
17th Apr 2006, 17:20
Ozzie I think you will find the police are obligedto take it seriously

Jet II
17th Apr 2006, 17:20
Following a very reasonable letter to BA news from a First Officer the BA cabin crew union's (BASSA) forum has been inundated with threats to use eye drops to poison the person involved.
Having led a very sheltered life - what does putting eye-drops in the coffee do?
And judging by the coffee I had coming back from Lanzarote the other day methinks it could possibly improve it :uhoh:

The Moo
17th Apr 2006, 17:26
I'm cabin crew for the said comany and would never consider poisoning one of my fellow workers. I would just remain professional and not socialise with them down route.
Secondly I have read the article and yes I do agree that from a daily basis we do seem to work less than the pilots,but what they forget to tell you is that they get 3 - 4 days off extra a month. I do on average 47 - 50 duty hours in a six day block. and only get 10 days off a month ( and I know before alot of the loco carriers complain that you only get 9 ). So the article by the ba pilot was correct in one sense that we do 'seem' to work less but we just do our work in the extra 3 - 4 days a month we work.

Hand Solo
17th Apr 2006, 17:37
I'm sure you do 47-50 hours duty per week, the point of the letter is you do signigicantly less flying than that. At least a third of your duty hours are likely to be sitting around Compass or CAT on industrially required long turnarounds earning allowances but not doing any work. Many of your colleagues seem unable to make that distinction. The pilots you mention are not only getting 3 to 4 days extra off per month but they are also flying more hours per month than you. In addition, many EF crews have a roster with several 'Available' days on which they can be non-opped, which means effectively being granted an additional day off.

The current Eurofleet agreement effectively strings out a small amount of work to fill a long period in order to get more cash, a not dissimilar practice to the Gate Gourment kitchen staff.

Eddy
17th Apr 2006, 17:42
Having led a very sheltered life - what does putting eye-drops in the coffee do?
And judging by the coffee I had coming back from Lanzarote the other day methinks it could possibly improve it :uhoh:
Gives ya the sh1ts....

The Moo
17th Apr 2006, 18:11
I fill all my availables with the longest days possible ie. dme there and back ist there and back I work to pay a mortgage and work as hard as I possibly can. ava = no allowences.
I do as many long duty days as possible

atyourcervix73
17th Apr 2006, 18:20
Sadly this is a clash of cultures and personality, take your average CC member, and your average Flight deck member, and you will continue to get the US vs THEM comments.
It just all seems exacerbated at a place like BA due to all the competing interests, and entrenched outdated work practices.
Put another way..its not going to be solved easily.:ok:

Airbubba
17th Apr 2006, 18:27
These things happen sometimes...

______________________________


Flight Attendant Accused of Spiking Juice

Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:18 AM ET

DETROIT - A former Northwest Airlines flight attendant was charged with assault for allegedly putting a prescription depressant in a toddler's apple juice to stop her crying on an international flight.

Daniel Reed Cunningham, 33, also was charged Thursday with distributing a controlled substance on the Aug. 25 flight from Amsterdam to Detroit.

Arraignment was set for Tuesday for Cunningham, who is not in custody, the U.S. attorney's office said.

The girl's mother, Beate Turner, told FBI (news - web sites) special agent Terry Booth that Cunningham seemed upset when her 19-month-old daughter became restless and began squirming and crying on the flight. Cunningham offered the apple juice three times before Turner accepted, according to the agent's affidavit. The girl suffered no serious injury.

Turner later noticed the juice was bitter and foamy and had blue and white specks floating in it. Ten days after the flight, she took the juice to University Laboratories in Novi, which confirmed the presence of Xanax, a prescription medication used to treat panic attacks and anxiety, the FBI said.

The drug's side effects include lightheadedness, fatigue and drowsiness. The Food and Drug Administration (news - web sites) hasn't approved it for children, the agency said.

Cunningham has denied drugging the child in statements to the FBI. He did not return a telephone message left Friday at a listing for him, and his attorney, Neil Fink, declined comment.

Cunningham also has been charged with importing more than 100 tablets of a non-narcotic controlled substance into the United States on a different flight in October. The tablets included Xanax and Valium.

Northwest spokeswoman Mary Stanik said Cunningham was hired in 1998 and worked for the airline until last Dec. 30. She said she could not discuss his case.

The Moo
17th Apr 2006, 18:29
A couple of things to add.

Firstly the pilots did have the same agreements but gave them up for a pay restructure which most did very nicely out of or indeed one day will ( and I take the point a very small % lost out ) A large no. of pilots resent the cabin crew working practises as they feel there union sold them down the river

Secondly they are called agreements ie. all parties company,unions, employees agreed to these working practises.

Thirdly if they think these agreements are so good I hear they are still recruiting crew at the rivers www.britishairwaysjobs.com (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com).

BTSM
17th Apr 2006, 18:33
Grow up.It's just a bit of banter on a forum.

Things get taken too seriously these days.

Just laugh and get on with it.

I have read the letter and know the person who wrote it. He is a busybody who has done it because he will be standing in the elections that are coming up for BA BALPA reps.

He didn't get voted in last time and it really hurt him. He has been bitter about it ever since. This time he is determined to get in at all costs .

Any publicity is good publicity, and this is all he is up to.

Airbubba
17th Apr 2006, 18:46
>>Grow up.It's just a bit of banter on a forum.

That can sure get you in trouble sometimes in this business. Here's an earlier thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100717

Albert Driver
17th Apr 2006, 19:00
Anecdotally, there have been at least a dozen alleged instances of this kind of behaviour in the last 5 years or so.
:

I can't confirm the "dozen", but I can confirm one other instance. It was a specific threat against me. It was written. I reported it through the "proper channels" i.e. to the CAA, to Security, to fleet management, but not to the police or (although sorely tempted) the Press.

The result was............ I have absolutely no idea!
There was an brief telephone acknowledgement from the Fleet Office and another from Security then.....never heard another thing about it.

The problem, it seemed to me, was that Cabin Crew Management were too powerful and Flight Crew Management too pathetic to impress upon all cabin crew the stupidity and the criminality of even thinking of doing such a thing. The CAA once again "regulated with a light touch" (!!)

I see absolutely nothing has changed.

Hand Solo
17th Apr 2006, 19:02
Firstly the pilots did have the same agreements but gave them up for a pay restructure which most did very nicely out of or indeed one day will ( and I take the point a very small % lost out ) A large no. of pilots resent the cabin crew working practises as they feel there union sold them down the river

Sorry but going to have to take issue with that point, coming as it does direct from BASSA HQ with barely a glancing blow at the truth! The pilots had a meal allowance system which they exchanged for an hourly rate. They did not give up any working agreements in any substantive form, and we never had an agreement which benefited us to sit around being unproductive. The only thing that changed was an overtime payment for delays at the end of duty which were rarely triggered anyway. The pilots do not resent the cabin crew working practices because they feel their union sold them down the river, they resent them because whilst other areas of the company are feeling the pinch the cabin crew are still woefully inefficent by any measure. BASSA would have you believe we're working harder thanks to the hourly rate and thats why we say you are inefficient - its hardly surprising given that they fought so hard to oppose it. We we're working harder than you before the hourly rate, we're working harder than you since the hourly rate, it's got nothing to do with that.

flyblue
17th Apr 2006, 20:10
Albert Driver,

I can't confirm the "dozen", but I can confirm one other instance. It was specific against me. It was written. I reported it through the "proper channels" i.e. to the CAA, to BA Security, to fleet management, but not to the police or (although sorely tempted) the Pres

You mean that you have been tested for poisoning and you had a positive result?

Albert Driver
17th Apr 2006, 20:23
Flyblue

It's best to read the title of the thread before posting.

peanutgallery
17th Apr 2006, 20:31
Eye drops are seriously dangerous and do not act as described in this thread. Please see here for more info...
http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/visine.asp

Swallowing this substance can result in a number of nasty effects, including:

Lowering body temperature to dangerous levels
Making breathing difficult, or even halting it entirely
Blurring vision
Causing nausea and vomiting
Elevating and then dropping blood pressure
Causing seizures or tremors
Sending the ingester into a coma

flyblue
17th Apr 2006, 20:41
Albert Driver,

I am asking if you, or anyone, has proof of this (poisoning) really happening.

Rainboe
17th Apr 2006, 20:53
Flyblue, it is a bit difficult to present a 'sample' to anyone and have the appropriate testing carried out! But when you are told many times it takes place, and you can remember times you have suffered inflight 'digestive troubles', you can put two and two together. I appreciate you are astonished and outraged, that is how I felt when gently teasing out of some cabin crew what goes on. The stories made me feel sick. It is not just eye drops- one would feel lucky if it was just that! I have heard of other 'fluids' being used, by the alleged perpetrators themselves, though always well after the event. It is not something someone can understand from another company where normal people seem to work, there is an inherrent poisonous culture afoot in this large airline, and the managerial levels are either desperate to ignore it to prevent further ramifications, or totally apathetic, one doesn't know. One has heard of a certain former CE of the airline in question who has been 'done', and carried his own catering on his own airline's flights, but maybe that is just hearsay! It is something nobody can really do anything about, isn't it? And as for 'proving' it, one can't really do that, either, can you? But they brag about doing it!

Albert Driver
17th Apr 2006, 21:08
Flyblue

Nowadays the threat, alone, is almost certainly a criminal act.

flyblue
17th Apr 2006, 21:14
Rainboe,
thank you for your reply. Of course anyone would be astonished to read that kind of news.
I was asking if there were any solid proof, because in my company you can't even claim "plain" food poisoning on board (it counts as an accident on the workplace in this case, not as a common illness) if you don't get tested (don't let me get specific on what you must test to prove it :D, but you can do it without the help of the company).
I think that it would be wise once and for all try to prove you got poisoned, instead of living on rumors that might, or might not, be legends. Of course the company can't take action on something that has never been proved. All would be different if you indeed had been tested positive to poisoning.

I don't work for BA and therefore has no direct knowledge. But in the 16 years I have been working in airlines, I have never personally witnessed or heard anyone bragging about such a criminally stupid thing. I would immediately have reported if I had, because a person doing this would surely not be mentally fit to fly.

This situation of incertitude is worse than the poison itself, because it is poisoning your trusting in the members of your own crew.

junior_man
17th Apr 2006, 21:19
I hear the TSA is now going to check all the BA crews in the USA with extra care to make sure you aren't carrying any Visine to poison each other with. Bad enough you flying around with 3 engines and all.

May include cavity searches as well.

Rainboe
17th Apr 2006, 21:30
Flyblue- I ask you, is it 'rumours' when someone proudly tells you they have done it themselves? And others tell you they have seen it done? It goes a little beyond rumour. But for me, it was long ago and something I really prefer to pass on now, but I know it happened. Just too many stories. Thing is, they tell you when the target is anonymous, and the event was on a different trip.

crewmeal
17th Apr 2006, 21:57
20+ years ago when the AIDS scares were abundant certain Capts refused to be served by gay stewards incase they would 'catch' something. One in particular made it quite clear he would refuse to eat anything seved by a 'suspect' male steward. What he didn't bargin for was a right hand flavoured yohurt served to him on an SFO flight by a stewardess!!!

Prior to that when flying classic 747's a certain flight engineer would always make himself known to the Johnny Walker black label bottle in the upper deck lounge bar while the main meal was being served on the lower deck. His reputation preceeded him and on one flight he helped himself to one 'Black Label' too many. Later that night he bought it along to a room party and he couldn't understand why no one wanted to share his drink, until he poured a measure - wish I had bought my camera to photograph the look on his face!!!

LightTwin Driver
17th Apr 2006, 22:05
A friend of mine who is BA cabin crew sent me this snippet from her forum:


Next BA News issue , first page

First Officer xxxxxx has been rushed to the hospital with food poisening. Primary supects are the EF Cabin Crew , due the comments made by Mr Dranse on the previous BA News Issue


She said that she cannot believe the attitude of a minority of her colleagues who openly make such threats and then add comments such as "only joking' a day or so later when they realise that their comments may have been taken seriously and possibly fowarded to the authorities.


She says she know for sure that some idiot cabin crew have not only put eye drops in pilot's drinks,but have also done it to 'annoying' passengers,as well as wiping their steaks around the toilet bowl and adding certain fluids to yoghurt !!!


I cannot believe that an airline would put up with such childish and possibly dangerous behaviour.

wotsyors
18th Apr 2006, 02:49
To be told over a few beers that that had been done, never mind the urban myths, changes your approach in the morning.
Trying to chivvy `em up to make an on time departure and then find an hour and half later you`ve been offered nothing in terms of liquid is a bit of a giveaway.
Unless you know them ask for a full large bottle, and then check the seal.
What`s funny about a runny tummy is beyond me, but then again l don`t understand why a CSA would intercept an engineer to explain,wrongly, an imagined problem on the flightdeck.
Surely not penis envy?
The key to this is to give CSA` s licences, with a number, and then we can bin mirrors in the galley.

beamer
18th Apr 2006, 08:33
One knew a loadmaster on cargo flights who pissed in certain pilots teas and coffees for years !

cavortingcheetah
18th Apr 2006, 10:10
:ooh:

Well, that's just fine so long as you're not the one scheduled for the arsenic agenda. Actually, I wonder if it would be self defence were a flight crew member to preempt a poisoning situation by exterminating a cabin crew member in the galley before the cockpit service?:p

bar none
18th Apr 2006, 10:25
As a ground staff member of BA who has served more years than he would care to remember I see pilots and cabin crew members on a daily basis. The scenario described in this thread would appear to occur about 5% of the time, i.e. 95% of the time the two communities get along famously.
In any cross section of society there are about 5% extremists thus the situation in BA is probably the norm

cavortingcheetah
18th Apr 2006, 12:00
:eek:

I doubt that it is the norm for 5% of the population to run around introducing poisonous or noxious subtances into other people's food or drink. However, be that as it may, are we therefore to infer that some 5% of BA Cabin Crew are so pyschologically disturbed or whatever, as to render themselves potentially liable for criminal prosecution or civil damage's actions?
:ouch:

wotsyors
18th Apr 2006, 12:16
Cavortingcheater. The first part of that is surely a home truth for Iraq. And . . the brits tend to understate, so maybe, possibly, having read the advice issued by what passes for your overseas thingy, . er you may be wrong.

Da Dog
18th Apr 2006, 14:08
A certain sparklycart my be regretting their threat to posion a BA SFO.

YYC F/A
18th Apr 2006, 14:24
That certain SparklyCart also made clear that his/her post was completely in jest, and that they absolutely did not advocate endangering flight safety by carrying out such acts 'in real life'.

Whether the humour/'in jest' was appropriate or not is another question, but the OP has made it clear that he/she would absolutely not do such a thing.

I'm sure many of us will have said things in jest or humour which we'd never dream of doing.

If I seriously thought that one of my colleagues was likely to pull such a stunt as 'eye drops in coffee', I'd not only confront them about it, I'd put in the approriate 'heads up' to those who would need to investigate. However, in 8 years of flying, meeting and working with literally thousands of fellow crewmembers, there has only be one occasion where I've ever had to question a colleagues intergrity - and that wasn't at BA.

It'd be interesting to see some of the threads about BA Cabin Crew on the BALPA forum - there apparently is no shortage of pilots who seem to trawl through the private 'membership only' BASSA forums!

Da Dog
18th Apr 2006, 14:34
difference is on the BALPA forum we don't hide behind an alias, yes there are threads from time to time on Cabin Crew, but by inlarge the debate is kept at an altogether more mature level than what I read on the BASSA forum, and threats of a physical nature are definitly not made.

YYC F/A
18th Apr 2006, 14:46
difference is on the BALPA forum we don't hide behind an alias, yes there are threads from time to time on Cabin Crew, but by inlarge the debate is kept at an altogether more mature level than what I read on the BASSA forum, and threats of a physical nature are definitly not made.

Maybe if people didn't hide behind an alias on Pprune, things would be a bit more civil too... some of the threads on here border on questionable maturity!

I have to wonder half the time if the things that some people (BA pilots included) say on here behind the safety of anonymity and a screen name would be said in person on the aircraft, or downroute at the bar?

And, just out of curiousity, how do you read the BASSA forum? Under the terms of use of said forum:

"Upon registration you accept our terms and conditions and must provide a REAL NAME and VALID EMAIL ADDRESS"

and

"You MUST be a member of BASSA Worldwide or Eurofleet."

Da Dog
18th Apr 2006, 14:55
YYC.......please don't try and derail the debate, fact is a very specific threat was made against one of my collegues, a complaint has been made, it is irelevent if it was made in gest or not.

OzzieO
18th Apr 2006, 14:58
Its Jest not Gest.

cavortingcheetah
18th Apr 2006, 15:05
:hmm: :p

No it is not!:cool:
Either will do, although the J word is the more common parlance since 1470.
What a joke!:=
In any event, is not this thread drifting away from matters Hemlockian?;)

OzzieO
18th Apr 2006, 15:11
Sorry my error - must write to Collins to let them know.

YYC F/A
18th Apr 2006, 15:15
Da Dog - not trying to 'derail' the thread. As I've already said, the appropriateness of the joke is questionable, but nonetheless - if 'official' complaints are going to be made then the source of the comment and it's context will need to be examined, and so I feel it's therefore a relevant question as to how you accessed the private site on which the comment was posted.

Cheers

Beriltheperil
18th Apr 2006, 15:16
Even in jest, this fills me with horror.

Reading this thread, this may have grown bigger than it probably was intended, but eye drops, right hand yoghurts???

Why is there so much 'Them and us' between Flight Deck and Cabin Crew? and is this in all airlines?. Personal interest here, of who not to fly with.

Outragous

YYC F/A
18th Apr 2006, 15:23
Beril, for the purposes of your decision making in 'who not to fly with'...

Stories such as the 'right hand yoghurt' etc have circulated for donkeys years, and among all crew at all airlines. Most of them are probably urban myth, and as i've already stated, in 8 years of flying at 5 different carriers working with literally thousands of different crewmembers, I've only once had cause to question a colleagues integrity (and that was whilst working for a US carrier and not BA).

All airlines have their moments, remember the two seperate stories about Northwest Airlines F/A's putting Gravol or Brandy into a baby's juice?

I've heard more tales of 'putting things into customers food' whilst working in hotel and catering than I have in the airlines, and I've never been witness to any such thing happening at BA. 99% of the colleagues I work with aim to provide a great on board service. The other 1% aim to get through the day with as little work as possible. 0% in my experience would purposefully poison a pilot's (or passengers) food.

cavortingcheetah
18th Apr 2006, 15:29
:hmm:

On May 15th, 1930, Ellen Church became the first woman to fly as an air hostess when she flew for Boeing Air Transport, later to become United Airlines.
Standards were high in those days. Perhaps they are not quite as demanding today?
The requirements for stewardesses in the 1930s were strict. In addition to being registered nurses, the women had to be single, younger than 25 years old; weigh less than 115 pounds; and stand less than 5 feet, 4 inches tall.
Would that this were so today!
Perhaps a knowledge of poison is the one remaining link between the high standards of past recruitment and those of the present.;)

Da Dog
18th Apr 2006, 16:07
YYC, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2096902,00.html

Have a read.

Hand Solo
18th Apr 2006, 16:15
YYC - We have to remain anonymous on here because we've seen how your community react when someone has the audacity to write something controversial in BA News - lots of threats of poisoning followed by "I was only joking" when it looks like they're going to get into the trouble. You're like the naughty boy caught with his hand in the biscuit jar who says he was going to put the biscuit back!

flt_lt_w_mitty
18th Apr 2006, 16:41
YYC - I suspect Da Dog is either c/crew or co-habits with one or more of them of any of the genders, and therefore can access the site. Any resulting inappropriate access is the responsibility of the site members and there is not much that can be done.

Da Dog - let's hope some of the folk you have abused on PPRune with your posts do not press charges?

I must admit, some BA flight crew do seem to relish putting themselves 'at risk' with their unique approach to working with c/crew. The temptation to 'adjust' their supplies must be intolerable in some cases. Perhaps all BA flight decks should carry a 'heavy' food taster.:)

YYC F/A
18th Apr 2006, 16:50
YYC - We have to remain anonymous on here because we've seen how your community react when someone has the audacity to write something controversial in BA News - lots of threats of poisoning followed by "I was only joking" when it looks like they're going to get into the trouble. You're like the naughty boy caught with his hand in the biscuit jar who says he was going to put the biscuit back!

Nothing like sweeping generalisations or 'tarring everyone with the same brush' eh... :ouch:

Many of us are able to debate the issue sensibly and without jokes or deragatory comments. Just as there are cabin crew quick to 'slam' flight crew who make remarks about them, so are there pilots (many on here!) who are quick to slam cabin crew who try and post a different point of view.

Ah, but presenting a balanced view isn't nearly as much fun as accusing all cabin crew of being reactionary and 'caught with their hand in the cookie jar'...

Back on topic, and to re-iterate, I do not support (whether in humour or otherwise) discussion such as putting eye drops into coffee etc. I think you'll find most of my (your!) cabin crew colleagues agree.

Hand Solo
18th Apr 2006, 17:52
Many of us are able to debate the issue sensibly and without jokes or deragatory comments

Have you ever thought about doing this on the BASSA forum? Perhaps it might temper the rabid ant-pilot diatribe that went on there! Lots of posts and all playing the man, not the ball. You'd think he'd committed heresy! Come on YYC, you've worked for other airlines and I know you've worked or bmi. Can you put your hand on your heart and say that you think Eurofleet crew are rostered efficiently?

Da Dog
18th Apr 2006, 18:08
YYC, Mitty might be right, put it this way I did'nt put a gun to anyones head:cool:

Mitty maybe you could post a link to a thread where I have threatened someone physically?

Ozzie O glad your still trying to score points on the spelling front, looking at the wealth of illiterate ramblings over on the BASSA forum it truly must keep you busy. How do you spell boeing again?

YYC F/A
18th Apr 2006, 18:12
Hand Solo - With regard to EF scheduling...

More and more of the trips are minimum rest, with links added to the beginning and the end of multi-day trips. BA uses Carmen which, supposedly, constructs the trips in the most economical way / maximum efficiency within the current Industrial Agreements.

The main 'gripe' from Flight Ops and other departments with regard to EF scheduling seems to revolve around the CAT and Compass turnarounds. Two things here:

First, we could go 'a la midland' and do multi-sector trips on the same aircraft with no break. I did my fair share of 4 and 5 sector DUB and BFS trips at BD. Fact is, they ARE tiring, and whilst BD might be more 'efficient' in their scheduling, ask anyone who is ex. Midland on their views about this... they'll say the same thing - great crew, but knackering - and that's one of the reasons why BA is able to swoop up so many ex. BD crew. Better T&C. Also, as you know, we did trial fixed links, but the whole thing fell apart over disagreements with other areas such as CSD on EF etc.

Second, we're back to the allowances thing again. Midland (and Easy, and the Charters) all have a higher basic than BA new contract crew. Remember that 'new contract' guys now represent 65%+ of main crew on EF now. Whilst the basic pay is what it is, the union will fight to protect the allowance system which is the only way that the pay is able to come out decent. If we look at getting rid of CAT's and Compass turnarounds, thereby reducing potential allowance earnings, then the basic pay will have to be relooked at. It's not something the company is particularly keen to do. Much cheaper to have pensionable pay set at £10k a year and exclude all those allowaces!

I support efficiencies with scheduling, but the issue is more complex (allowances etc.) than just slashing turnaround times.

The North American system of block hours where one works 75 block hours a month gives crew the option to bid for 'light days' with extended turnarounds and long layovers and good $$ for per diem, but you need to work more days to meet your monthly quota. Alternatively, you can work more 'efficient' days such as 8hour hard time 'there and backs', less $$ for per diem, but you max out quicker and get more days off. Crew have more control over lifestyle, and the company wins too...

It's a totally different system from the BA Cabin Crew agreement, but maybe something like that is what we need? However, I doubt it would ever happen as the company and the union just wouldn't see eye to eye over losses to allowances etc, and quite frankly, for new contract crew, we can't afford to lose the allowances.

Final note - with the 767 longhaul flying coming to EF, there is a real possibility that many crew will start to edge close to the 900 hours, thereby working the same number of hours as the Flight Crew community.

keeperboy
19th Apr 2006, 20:30
This letter in the BA news has accomplished everything the management wanted to....a bit of BA news propaganda. It has raised an issue that management obviously wanted raised, BA wide. Its not just the pilots and EF crew that are talking about it. WW crew are talking about it. Engineers, baggage handlers and check in staff are no doubt talking about it. And obviously about the issue at hand.....the amount of flying that EF crew do.

I am cabin crew @ LHR WW (post '97 contract). I have been suprised the amount of conversation that has been going on in 747 and 777 galleys about the letter and conditions on EF. I am ex EF and many on WW are quite shocked when I tell them about the turn around times, CAT payments etc.

Point is, the management would love to have the fleets, and indeed different departments, calling for each others T&C's to be reduced.

But fact is, BA being BA and with it's history, most departments operate to working practices that would seldom be seen at other carriers. It isn't just the CC. It's the baggage handlers, check-in staff, dispatchers....and oh yes who could forget the BUS DRIVERS.

I read the F/O's letter and I think it is everyones right to raise an issue they feel passionate about, or express an opinion they feel strongly about.

BUT...the guy has to work with the people he is complaining about on a day-to-day basis!! WHY THE HELL ADD YOUR NAME TO THE LETTER WHEN YOU COULD HAVE PUT 'NAME AND ADDRESS SUPPLIED'???

Eh ho.

And on the 'POISONING' subject. The original post in this thread starter from the Bassa website has been edited. Following the eye drop statement, the posted continued....'and before anyone jumps down my throat I am only joking'.....

Keeps ;-)

stroppy jock
19th Apr 2006, 20:49
Firstly the pilots did have the same agreements but gave them up for a pay restructure which most did very nicely out of or indeed one day will ( and I take the point a very small % lost out ) A large no. of pilots resent the cabin crew working practises as they feel there union sold them down the river

Secondly they are called agreements ie. all parties company,unions, employees agreed to these working practises.

Thirdly if they think these agreements are so good I hear they are still recruiting crew at the rivers www.britishairwaysjobs.com (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com).

Moo you are talking out of your udders. BA Flight crew have never had the same scheduling agreements at least since the advent of bidline in the 70'. the restructuring did not involve giving up our agreements and the resentment is not against Cabin crew agreements but against the inefficient use of our cabin crew within that agreement.

Eddy
19th Apr 2006, 21:50
WHY THE HELL ADD YOUR NAME TO THE LETTER WHEN YOU COULD HAVE PUT 'NAME AND ADDRESS SUPPLIED'???

Seems this gentleman is looking to run in the Balpa elections again and certainly, as mentioned in an earlier thread, often and publicity is good publicity - and he's certainly got it!!!!!!!

I'm sure you'll remember the letter of about a year-and-a-half ago from a LGW CSD, Yode O(somthing). Yode's a lovely guy but many took great offence from his letter and it kicked up mass anger in the crew community. Again, this was another letter that most people would look to withold their identity from, but Yode had his name, rank and base published.

It's either bravery (i.e. not giving a sh1t about what people think as a result of thier opinions) or simply an effort to make a name for themselves; be it good or bad.

To the writer of the letter in the BA News, while I haven't actually read the letter as I haven't been in work for two weeks, I have to applaud his candor and congratulate him for sharing his opinion without hiding behind anonymity. Regardless of one's take on the subject of the correspondence, that's truly admirable.

M.Mouse
19th Apr 2006, 23:27
I think the gentlemen who wrote the letter was not being brave or deliberately controversial but was certainly naive and, if I read things correctly is a little contrite and embarrassed over the whole business.

I see it as such a shame that an honest opinion cannot be countermanded with sound argument instead of unpleasant abuse and physical threats, however seriously or otherwise they were meant.

The whole business rather epitomises the sad attitude of some, but far from all in BA.

As one of the many thousands who work very diligently to do the best for our passengers, despite our management, I read this thread and despair that it makes all BA flying staff sound as though they are still at primary school and hate to think what any intelligent member of the public at large makes of such aggressive, unpleasant and puerile writing and behaviour.

christn
20th Apr 2006, 09:08
The "us and them" culture is deliberately created and nurtured by management. Just imagine the industrial clout if flight crew, cabin crew, engineers,ground staff etc etc stood together!

NLB
20th Apr 2006, 10:18
Returning to the original topic.
Cabin crew 'interception' of flight deck crew food & drinks is certainly not 'urban myth'. Try asking a few junior crew in any airline & you will find many who will confirm that it happens on a regular basis.
It is certainly not only a BA phenomenon, in fact it is probably more prevalent in other airlines who do not have the option of being able to select their crew from a large number of candidates. The charter & lo-cost airlines have to take whoever they can get these days.
This is a flight safety threat which must be addressed. I would suggest as a start that all flight deck food should be sealed. This can be addressed very easily & cheaply. The issue of drinks is obviously not so straightforward, many flight deck crew now do not risk hot drinks & settle for a bottle of water.
The sooner these issues are dealt with the better, whether it be instigated by the media, a court case, or some other means. I am sure a prison sentence for endangering an aircraft would provide an excellent deterrent to other crew to re-consider their actions.

OzzieO
20th Apr 2006, 10:48
Happens on a regular basis? I don't think so in fact I think someone is pulling your plonker.

I have been in the airline industry for 20 years now with two carriers and I still maintain the whole subject of "eyedrops" is urban myth.

However I do think in the unlikely instance that anyone is caught putting eyedrops into food/beverages/etc should be made to account for their actions.

Bang Or West
20th Apr 2006, 13:28
Police now involved allegedly.

Hand Solo
20th Apr 2006, 13:37
That you know of......:E

captcat
20th Apr 2006, 14:40
Frankly, this thread is worrying and ridiculous. To see grown ups send their knickers in a twist over the Big Bad Cabin Crew is disarming. I've been a CC for more time than I care to remember, and never ONCE I've heard someone even joke about putting anything on a pilot's meal/beverage. Only people talking about it are a very small number of pilots (who incidentally are the same people who seem to think that CC are not flying on the same plane as them) that can swear it happened to them/got it from someone they know/happened in their pal's company. Too bad no one ever bothered to prove it. If this phenomenon was so widespread as someone in bad need of anti-paranoia medication seems to think, why is it that no one, not even those who claim they were victims, bothered to substantiate the allegations?
So yes, let's seal pilots' meals, or why not provide a taster, or even better, make the Big Bad CC taste it first?
Am I the only one to find all that ridiculous? :rolleyes:

Rainboe
20th Apr 2006, 16:55
Captcat, you obviously haven't been reading the thread properly. I would say on at least five occasions it has been proudly admitted to me that food for certain individuals has been tampered with, including extremely unpleasant actions on the food of one or two Captains regarded as unpopular in BA. This was always done when tongues were loosened with alcohol, and obviously when no witness was present to hear. They were saying it, I assume it was not just bluster. From symptoms I infrequently suffered, I am convinced that one or two old dragons at Gatwick took such action on me, but I could never prove it. To simply deny or shrug it off is not going to work when so many people have admitted indulging themselves.

JohnWaynePlane
20th Apr 2006, 20:28
Oh my god, please help me - what does eye drops taste like ! ! ! ! ! :{

tristar500
20th Apr 2006, 20:49
Whats the big deal with eye drops... Maybe Iam blind to their detremental effects here but this thread is focusing on eye drops, as a 'poison' to put in crew dinners etc.

Would someone in the know please explain...

JohnWaynePlane
20th Apr 2006, 20:50
Many apologies to my grammar I should have said what DO eye drops taste like not to take too much focus from the issue.

Golden Ticket
20th Apr 2006, 21:02
John Wayne Plane, they taste like chicken, or is it that the chicken tastes like eye drops.

JohnWaynePlane
20th Apr 2006, 21:05
Ok so it's beef for me from now on!

tristar500
20th Apr 2006, 21:07
Golden Ticket

Been advised by a friend (Captain Birdseye) they taste like fishfingers:ok:

click
20th Apr 2006, 21:17
So, they constrict yer bowels and open an orifice. Now the question begs, how can you tell if your food's been spiked if that's the same reaction I get with normal crew meals? Twenty minutes before TOD and I am breaking out in cold sweat:E .
Since I married an FA, should I expect the eye drops to be replaced by strychnine in twenty years? :}

tristar500
20th Apr 2006, 21:43
Well said CLICK! Have you tried the BA meals? I wouldnt give my next door neighbours evil dog one...:yuk:

JohnWaynePlane
20th Apr 2006, 21:46
Next doors dog is probably what the meal is made of - Jesus think about it what the hell are we eating never mind everyone trying to poison us !!!!!

tristar500
20th Apr 2006, 21:47
Have you seen the expiry date on some of the BA food? It will outlast all of us!:uhoh:

ChewyTheWookie
20th Apr 2006, 21:53
I can't believe that this minor joke has been taken completley out of context... Absolutely pathetic...

For a start, when you are at the back of an aircraft flying along at 500mph and 35,000 feet, why on earth would you deliberatly endanger one of the only 2 people on board who can safely control it? It's idiots overreacting about tiny jokes like this that force the cabin/flight crew divide wider and wider...

Rainboe
20th Apr 2006, 22:03
Why do you say it is a joke? People have admitted doing it. They are grown up- if they didn't, why say they did? I did not see it as a joke. Unfortunately I know there are only too many people out there in the cabin who would do such a stupid thing.

JohnWaynePlane
20th Apr 2006, 22:05
I totally agree with you, why the hell would you poison us but hey I'm afraid to say there are some small minded people out there who believe in this rubbish.

I think joking about it is the best way to deal with it - nobody really believes that anyone would actually go through with something that stupid . . . . . . . . . . .

NLB
20th Apr 2006, 22:15
I can't believe that this minor joke has been taken completley out of context... Absolutely pathetic...
For a start, when you are at the back of an aircraft flying along at 500mph and 35,000 feet, why on earth would you deliberatly endanger one of the only 2 people on board who can safely control it? It's idiots overreacting about tiny jokes like this that force the cabin/flight crew divide wider and wider...
You would think so !!
At a recent discussion in a bar downroute on this subject, I pointed out exactly this to a couple of young cabin crew who had been boasting about their activities with the food of a particular captain. There was complete mystery on their faces until they thought for a few minutes & realised that they had in fact endangered their own lives.

captcat
20th Apr 2006, 22:30
With that hoard of cabin crew confessing, I wonder why no one ever thought of reporting it. I for sure would have. If I had ever heard about it.

captcat
20th Apr 2006, 23:02
I have read 5 pages too many.
And regarding useful contributes, I am still waiting for facts.
This thread should be on jet Blast.

Flying Lawyer
20th Apr 2006, 23:22
I'm not sure what 'facts' captcat (or anyone else) expects to be posted.
Date, time, place and named victims? :confused:


It's hardly surprising people don't bother reporting confessions made informally. The chances of anything coming of it are about nil.
The perpetrator would almost certainly claim no incident actually happened/that the confession was made in fun, and it would be difficult if not impossible to prove otherwise.


FL

captcat
21st Apr 2006, 00:58
Flying Lawyer,



if someone told me that he did in the past endanger the safety of the aircraft, or intended to do it, I would not hesitate for a second to report it, even if it had been told informally. We have procedures for that kind of things, and no one would blame us for expressing a doubt concerning safety. On the contrary, we are constantly encouraged to do so.



Speaking of facts, I was not expecting to see any of it posted actually, because I know there isn't any.

Let's sum up: some pilots have heard CC brag about poisoning other pilots' meals, and some think they have been the victims themselves, and have not reported it (and they never requested to be tested, even "knowing" that it is a common occurrence. Maybe not through the company, but through the Union?). I think any person being aware of a piece of information like this would be as criminal as the perpetrator not to report it. And that makes me think that if no one ever did it it is, maybe, because as fascinating as feeling under a threat may be, they know deep down that it is all rubbish, or it never actually happened to them. Yes, just plain old urban myths to scare the pals around the campfire. Or are we saying that the ones in charge of even reporting that a spare bulb is missing don't bother to report a matter of this gravity?



The perpetrator would almost certainly claim no incident actually happened/that the confession was made in fun, and it would be difficult if not impossible to prove otherwise.


Maybe, but that surely would cure them and their pals from "joking" in such a stupid way. There is also a very efficient tool called CRM, that should tackle a problem like this, even if only not to spread stupid rumors that some fool might want to put in practice one day.

What I'm saying is, that if it is recognised that we indeed have a problem, it should be tackled in no time, and that any person aware of it should have the duty of reporting it, and not only spreading rumors in an anonymous board where it is only harming the good name of a whole fine company where thousands of fine professionals do their best every day to achieve excellence, and earn their bacon while they're there.



Finally, one of the laws of aviation is that whatever you are hiding your head in the sand from, will surely sting you in the butt at some point. Refraining to look into a phenomenon like pilot poisoning (you can never know what it will turn out: how can you be sure that it will only be an upset stomach?) would be plain stupid on a company's behalf, and if it was really so widespread as some think it is, it would have been addressed at some point.



I see a lot of animosity and agressiveness here which does not help objectivity. Let's prove that what moves some comments is not the wish to score cheap points but the will to tackle a problem. It is not a match of them against us. Let's stop throwing accusations and whip a pet conspiracy theory like cream and do something constructive.

Flying Lawyer
21st Apr 2006, 01:28
captcat

Some say it's a 'conspiracy theory' or urban myth; others say it's not.
As an outsider, I'm obviously not in a position to say who's right.

However, I've read (for example) what Rainboe has said on this thread and have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve him. I read his posts regularly and regard him as a reliable source on airline matters. In one post, he said "Thing is, they tell you when the target is anonymous, and the event was on a different trip." That doesn't surprise me in the slightest; it's what I'd expect.
Also, although I don't have access to the BASSA forum, I have read similar claims/comments in the CC forum here over the years - by people who either appear to have a 'chip' about pilots generally, or are irritated about some incident which they saw as a slight to their perceived status.

If people are sufficiently irresponsible and immature to make the claims, I don't have any difficulty in believing they may be sufficiently irresponsible and immature to do it.
If it doesn't happen, why do some cabin attendants say it does?

FL

peanutgallery
21st Apr 2006, 08:04
Whats the big deal with eye drops... Maybe Iam blind to their detremental effects here but this thread is focusing on eye drops, as a 'poison' to put in crew dinners etc.

Would someone in the know please explain...

Eyedrops contain tetrahydrozoline. (see here http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/visine.asp)

One thing tetrahydrozoline has not been known to do is to cause sudden onset bouts of severe diarrhoea.

Drinking it can (and has) caused severe depression of the central nervous system.
I repeat what I said earlier.

Swallowing this substance can result in a number of nasty effects, including:
Lowering body temperature to dangerous levels
Making breathing difficult, or even halting it entirely
Blurring vision
Causing nausea and vomiting
Elevating and then dropping blood pressure
Causing seizures or tremors
Sending the ingester into a comaDo not even consider using eyedrops in a prank it can kill.

Rainboe
21st Apr 2006, 08:07
Protestations that one should demand to 'be tested!' don't really lead to anything. Tested for what? Your steak being wiped around a toilet? The eye drops trick? Body fluids check? Check what? How? Especially when the organisation one would turn to for help (the airline itself) is not readily available in an out of the way place, and has a quite positive vested interest in squashing the whole suspicion of the problem! There is always the question that were one to accuse someone of uncorroborated comments, the word would get around and guess who cannot trust his food anymore? It's quite an accusation to make against someone, but then it's also quite an admission for them to make, but they have always known to make it without witnesses- so if it's word against word, where do you stand? That is why official complaints have not been made. But I know that the admission has been made to me and many others very proudly! I truly believe it is the culture, and it is a culture that is bad in BA, and these people who do such things just don't think that they are poisoning the very person who keeps them alive. It's spiteful, nasty and vindictive, and it starts as soon as people join in that damn training school where bad attitudes are instilled right from the beginning before they even see an aeroplane, and fostered by some of the daft leaflets and statements sent out by BASSA!

captcat
21st Apr 2006, 12:40
peanutgallery
thank you for your post. That is what I call facts. And it deflates the urban myth of eyedrops causing diarrhoea.

Flying Lawyer
I don't tink that you have any reason to disbelieve Rainboe either. I believe him when he says that he heard things said by people heavily imbibed, while he was maybe having a glass or two himself. But do you have any reason to disbelieve me either when I say that in years of flying I have never, ever once heard anyone admitting or even hinting at something that would be criminal and stupid?
I have met CC that by personal choice didn't particularly like pilots, or one pilot in particular. What I have witnessed is:
-pilots spending the layover on their own
-the Upper Deck CC position being taken as last choice
-exchanges being kept to the professional minimum
but, I repeat never ever any food or beverage being tampered with. And I must add I'm at my 5th airline.

If it was true that someone boasted having done so, it would be imperative to report the matter, to investigate it further, take the appropriate action to prevent that kind of rumour and subject to become a joke, and have a good talk with the ones in charge of the recruitment about the requirements needed to take up a post where maturity and responsibility are a must.

Finally, if you really have read similar claims/comments in the CC forum here over the years
may I point you to the "report to Moderator" button facility that is available to report any post that you think might be overstepping the limit?
One of the CC Forum Moderator is a Captain, so I think that he would not be too inclined (nor the other Moderators, I should add) to tolerate one of those claims/comments.

bealine
21st Apr 2006, 13:36
I really hope no member of our cabin crew would ever consider poisoning their colleagues.

Chrissakes! I've often said that if only British Airways could only get us all to work as a proper team, we'd take the whole world by storm!!!

The one incident in my life I am really, genuinely ashamed of was when I was in the army on steward duty! We had an evil Warrant Officer on our Landing Craft Logistic (LCL) and I spiked his steak with Senokot!

Crikey! I thought I'd killed him! It started off as a joke, watching him disappear to the heads clutching his stomach halfway through the dessert course - but when he had to be airlifted off from the Minches and flown down to RN Haslar in Portsmouth, I really imagined the undertakers would have to be called! He was very ill for weeks afterwards and, although he was evil to us squaddies, he didn't deserve the full measure he received!

Practical tomfoolery can be serious!

sikeano
21st Apr 2006, 14:40
just when i thought it was safe to apply for a job with ba :p
some times people do miss to see the funny side of a comment

Flying Lawyer
21st Apr 2006, 14:49
captkat

I have no reason to disbelieve you but, with respect, your various posts on this thread give me the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that you are reluctant to accept something you haven't experienced yourself, and that it would be very difficult for anyone to persuade you otherwise.
I have no reason to disbelieve that you, in years of flying "have never, ever once heard anyone admitting or even hinting at something that would be criminal and stupid" - but (for example) Rainboe has.

Yes, I "really have read" similar comments/claims in the CC forum over the years.
Even if I had the time/inclination to try, and the 'search' function went back more than a year, it would be difficult to find them because the comments I've seen have been made during the course of discussions, not as a topics of their own. From memory, they have usually been contained in what I can best describe as one of those 'Who does he think he is' type posts. (FAs referring to a Captain.)

I'm familiar with the "report to Moderator" facility, but it's never occurred to me to use it to report such a comment and I wouldn't in the future. Contributors are anonymous. People who've made the comments don't give names, date, airline, company, victim etc
We'll have to agree to differ about the value of reporting such claims - either to PPRuNe or to the company.

"the requirements needed to take up a post where maturity and responsibility are a must."
That's about as realistic as if I tried to persuade you that the requirements to be a lawyer are such that no immature or irresponsible people get through. All jobs, no exceptions, have such people and further, IMHO, we're all capable of behaving immaturely and/or irresponsibly on occasions. The attitudes displayed by some cabin attendants in CC forum discussions about pilots do nothing to make me think it's inconceivable that such behaviour could occur. Similarly, although I haven't seen the post in the BASSA forum, if it's correctly quoted, it doesn't suggest that the 'maturity and responsibility' aspect of CC recruitment is infallible - even if the comment wasn't meant seriously.

I stress - I'm simply an unbiased outsider observing the discussion. I don't claim to know if such behaviour actually occurs or whether they are just the comments of irresponsible and immature people.
On the other hand, I am in a position to express an opinion about whether there is any point in reporting imprecise comments/claims made about some incident on some unknown day in the past, and I think Rainboe is being more realistic than you.

theskiesthelimit
21st Apr 2006, 15:57
Well, after reading all this about a moaning old pilot and supposedly some murderers to be cabin crew , i had a good old laugh!!! but saying that , working for the said company as EF cabin crew , i am not surprised at all about this story ! We all know that in any airlines, i mean ANY, there is bitterness and jealousy from one department to another i.e : ground staff vs flying staff , cabin staff vs flight desk ........
This kind of attitude can be encountered from time to time and it shows how some people are very small( and i have no time for them!!! )
As someone said earlier on , there are bad apples out there but saying that ?most of the people i work with have a very decent attitude , they are respectful and respected! Unfortunately you need one person to write a letter , and he has set fire to the powder!
What the guy who wrote the letter should know that, we all work together , obviously he doesn't know ! I am sure the said company likes to see its staff divided!
i will end this post up with a french saying: divided you lose, together you win!

stroppy jock
21st Apr 2006, 18:54
The actual point of the letter was that BA's crewing for EF CC is dreadfully innefficient and that if it was improved there would be less need for new recruitment and thus a saving to all of BA. There was no criticism of Cabin Crew or their agreements - it was a criticism of BA mis-management generally and IFS-crewing in particular. Many Cabin Crew have been upset about it but nobody has disproved the central point - and until you do that point still has credibility.

As for the unfortunate comments on Bassa - they are akin to joking about having a bomb in your bag as you go thru security at Kennedy - in another time it might be funny but not now.

mutt
21st Apr 2006, 19:43
In bygone days I used to have quite a number of inebriated (NON BA) FA’s frequent my bar. I was aghast the first time that I heard a FA boasting about dropping eyedrops in the Captains coffee, the stories continued to include washing their fruit in the lavatory and sprinkling cigarette ash on the salad. They always did it just before descent into London so that the Captain was sick during the layover, they also reckoned that he could land safely prior to getting sick.

Were they boasting or joking? I have no idea.

Mutt

RoyHudd
21st Apr 2006, 21:00
Strangely, I have sympathy with Cabin Crew's alleged actions, crazy though they may be, given their embedded resentment of Flight Deck. (Massive generalization, I know).

The resentment is bred from mis-guided CRM trainers, who convince the semi-skilled and comparatively unqualified CC that they are the professional equals of FD, in safety matters and in general. This is nonsense, but is fed as doctrine to a group of people who are paid a fraction of the salary of FD. (I believe CC may be somewhat underpaid, but this is a personal viewpoint.) Outcome....resentment and heightened sensitivity to perceived slights/insults/officiousness by the pilots.

Thus, when problems arise in the air between FD and CC, real or imagined, the CC is in an ideal position to get their own back. Spoiling the "demanded" food or drink is so easy. And talked about so often. An attack of diarrhoea in a pilot is hardly an incapacitation, but if a diversion and subsequent night-stop is the outcome, well so what? More allowances, and another night away. Childish, yes, but understandable. Sadly risky also. Even dangerous.

The fault of these poor CC members lies with the CC trainers (well, some of them, by no means all), and these influential people are unlikely to modify their attitudes. Why should they? A fatal accident is unlikely to result, when all is said and done. Maturity of the CC trainers is the main hope, but I see little to convince me that this ridiculous problem will not continue. And a change in FDs' behaviour is unlikely, given the nature of the personality required to do the job.

Sorry, no answers, maybe just some thoughts to help improve this stupid situation.

woodpecker
21st Apr 2006, 22:32
These are the same CC trainers that teach the new entrant CC to remember the extinguisher locations in the flight deck of a 757 by.... "Water behind the W*nk*r and BCF behind the B*rst*rd".

Perhaps I'm of a different generation but I object to such practises, am I wrong?

No wonder when the new CC they get on line they have already been indoctrinated.

jettesen
21st Apr 2006, 23:54
Notice how everyone IGNORES your posts fly blue...............................;)

Flying Lawyer
22nd Apr 2006, 00:37
Roy Hudd & Woodpecker

Friends in the industry (mainly pilots) have made similar comments.

Do you think the attitude has become worse over the years?
I ask because, in a recent conversation with a CSD who's been with BA for about 20 years, she said younger CC tended to have a very different attitude from those of her 'generation.' I quote: "an over-inflated opinion of our status." In her view, management policies encouraged that notion and were partly to blame for the problem.

Do you think companies -
- do enough to resolve the problem?
- ignore it because it's so embedded there's nothing they can really do to change it?
- ignore it because they regard division amongst various groups as being to management advantage?

StohDznehDoPrikaza
22nd Apr 2006, 00:59
As a wrinkly old BA Cabin Crew member (20+) yrs on longhaul, I am happy to dispel the 'eyedrops' myth.

It came from the old US airline days....of PanAm/TWA folklore.

Yes, the type of eyedrops in those days did give the proverbial 'ass**le' Capt. or First Officer the sh*ts, purportedly at 3 drops per cup in cold liquid. (Cor blimey...nothing worse than after yer average meal on Bugis Street, Singapore....unless you were unfortunate enough to be bitten by one of the rats!).

I'm happy to say that, certainly with the drops available (outside of the sealed med. kit on BA LH) that you could drink as many eye drops as you could find aboard and you won't get the sh*ts or be 'poisoned'. In fact, medically, the eye drops are probably purer than the a/c tap water. Ask any Dr.(or Med. 'in the know').

The Cabin Crew have to ask Capt. permission (on BA) to open the 'sealed' medical kit. If said Capt. (or F/O) feels guilty that they've been a S.O.B. to the 'hand that feeds them' then there are some dodgy things that can have nasty side effects (ex the opened/sealed med kit)....so beware...hehe!

Said in jest, as, in truth the chances of any C.C. 'spiking' food & drink these days is about as likely as being struck on a golf-round twice by lightning (yes, I can imagine the posts back about some obscure chap with a magnetic personality getting struck 15 times in 5 mins...etc.,)

The original 'myth' was true from the specific formulae of the eyedrops that used to be carried (openly) on US airlines. (I know what they were called and what the active ingredient was and I certainly ain't about to tell anyone).

The worst-case scenarios in all my wrinkly BA days was a pillok of a Capt. called 'Gilette' who was such a plonker he had his Steak wiped round the lavvy pan (certainly not by me),.....he survived that and went on to a ripe old age as a pillok Capt. (Legendary, in BA). God rest his soul! R.I.P.

Another case was the retired Capt. nicknamed 'Catering Officer Pain'.(Deliberately altered spelling).... (Again, BA folkloric stuff). If you want the full story, then PM me.

The final major incident was a Capt. who, during the start of the AIDS scare/epidemic/paranoia (circa 1985+) refused to be served by male cabin crew on BA. He also carried his own spoon on a chain round his neck, so as 'not to get infected'. He got his yoghurt w*nked into by a steward, for that. I'm sure he survived and is probably alive and kicking, in his retirement. (Again, nothing to do with me).

In 20 yrs +, I can say lots of bad things about a very small minority of flight-deck crew (and CC as well), however, I wouldn't dream of taking it out on them, physically. I'd get my own back in my powers/skills of dealing with people (as I've always done with SLF/PAX) who 'act-up' .....with a smile on my face, subtly, discreetly.....that they're in no doubt. It took me at least 10 yrs to perfect that skill......hehe.....(Not feeling smug, just real!)

K :O

Heliport
22nd Apr 2006, 01:14
Hmmm!

'Steak wiped round the lavvy pan'
'his yoghurt was w*nked into by a steward' ("Big deal. I'm sure he's alive and kicking", you say. :rolleyes: )

So much for recruitment policies where "the requirements needed to take up a post where maturity and responsibility are a must."

StohDznehDoPrikaza
22nd Apr 2006, 01:36
Hmmm!

'Steak wiped round the lavvy pan'
'his yoghurt was w*nked into by a steward' ("Big deal. I'm sure he's alive and kicking", you say. :rolleyes: )

So much for recruitment policies where "the requirements needed to take up a post where maturity and responsibility are a must."

Heliport,

In over 20 yrs+ in a job that involves countless tens of thousands of flights and crew, I don't think the above is that shocking. I mean how many restaurant eaters do you think might have had their food 'doctored' in that timescale worldwide for whatever misdemeanors?
I can only speak for BA CC and this is a non-event of a story. I elucidated the 3 examples above (which are well known in BA).
CC in BA just aren't inclined to do such a thing, especially nowadays.
99% of FD have and always have been superb, in my experience. Same goes for CC.

K:cool:

Dizzie
22nd Apr 2006, 01:39
As BA EF C/C I have read the concerned thread on the Bassa website and on here and while the comment made about putting eyedrops in the concerned FO's drink were at best stupid and naive IT WAS A JOKE!!! I have NEVER seen or heard anyone even mention doctoring anyone's food.

As mentioned on a previous post here do any of you really believe that any of us would be so stupid as to knowingly poison one of (probably) the only 2 people on the a/c that know how to control it?!?! Hello!!! We want to get home safely too!!

Also people on here have said that it has been said to them by crew that they have added substances etc to flight crews food/drinks after they had been drinking - while I don't know if these comments are true or not - is it not possible that these comments were (Wrongly? Stupidly?) made to try to make the individuals look big or clever. I doubt there are many people here that haven't said anything stupid while drunk.

With regards to the attitudes between flight and cabin crew would it not be worth both sides treating each other as they would wish to be treated themselves? I have absolutely no problem with flight crew at all and a lot of the guys I have flown with at BA have been great. There are cabin crew out there that have an active dislike of flight crew but equally there are at least as many flight crew that have a dislike for cabin crew too - you only need to read some of the previous posts on this thread to see that! There has been several occasions when I have got on the bus at Compass to go to the a/c and said hello to the flight crew and been completely ignored - hardly sets a good tone for the rest of the day does it??

Dizzie
22nd Apr 2006, 02:06
The resentment is bred from mis-guided CRM trainers, who convince the semi-skilled and comparatively unqualified CC that they are the professional equals of FD, in safety matters and in general. This is nonsense, but is fed as doctrine to a group of people who are paid a fraction of the salary of FD. (I believe CC may be somewhat underpaid, but this is a personal viewpoint.) Outcome....resentment and heightened sensitivity to perceived slights/insults/officiousness by the pilots........Copied from RoyHudd.

I'm sorry but I don't seem to remember any of my trainers - CRM or otherwise - telling me I am more important than the flight crew, or any other crew member for that matter! We're meant to be a team. Without flight crew obviously the aircraft isn't going to go anywhere, but you guys also need us cabin crew too! Much the same as we would obviously look to you guys should there be an emergency such as an engine fire etc, who would you look to should your colleague in the flight deck have an incapacitation....cabin crew I'm guesing! If there's a fire in the cabin - are you going to fight it?.....I'm guessing that would be us cabin crew again! If there's a really disruptive pax and it's got to the stage that the restraint kit needs to be used - would you be leaving the flight deck to try to get the handcuffs on him? I'm guessing not - no, that would be cabin crew again! I'm not saying at all that we're more important than you guys at all - we're meant to be a team and work together - but if cabin crew weren't necessary would BA, or any other airline for that matter, really be paying out salaries etc for over 13000 people they didn't need?? On one hand your comment seems to be demeaning to us then in the same breath you say you believe we are underpaid??

Heliport
22nd Apr 2006, 08:31
StohDznehDoPrikaza "how many restaurant eaters do you think might have had their food 'doctored' in that timescale worldwide for whatever misdemeanors?" As CC yourself, you might get away with that comparison. Some CC object to being compared with waiters/waitresses.
I suspect most people would think it's disgraceful behaviour even in a restaurant, but at least the chances of the victim being about to fly an aeroplane (or do something else upon which people's lives/safety depends) aren't as high.

BTW, I notice you've now removed your "Big deal" comment from "his yoghurt was w*nked into by a steward".
Is that because, on reflection, you think doing that to someone's food is actually a 'big deal', even if the victim was still 'alive and kicking' afterwards?


Dizzie
Are you suggesting StohDznehDoPrikaza was drunk describing those incidents, one of which was so bad he/she is only prepared to give the details by PM? The posts seem lucid and reasoned, whether or not people agree with the reasoning or opinions.
A few drinks can make people less guarded and speak more freely, but surely it doesn't mean incidents they relate are necessarily untrue?

The discussion has widened from the originating eyedrops 'poisoning' to other unpleasant things allegedly done to pilots' food.

stroppy jock
22nd Apr 2006, 08:53
A couple of things to add.

Firstly the pilots did have the same agreements but gave them up for a pay restructure which most did very nicely out of or indeed one day will ( and I take the point a very small % lost out ) A large no. of pilots resent the cabin crew working practises as they feel there union sold them down the river

Secondly they are called agreements ie. all parties company,unions, employees agreed to these working practises.

Thirdly if they think these agreements are so good I hear they are still recruiting crew at the rivers www.britishairwaysjobs.com (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com).


Perhaps you might back that up with facts - when do you think this happened and what di the pilots give up. Cos rostering was not sacrificed for pay at any pay deal recently.

And the letter did not attack agreeements, it attacked poor rostering within those agreements.

stroppy jock
22nd Apr 2006, 08:59
Sorry StohD, but
"The Cabin Crew have to ask Capt. permission (on BA) to open the 'sealed' medical kit."

We only have to advise you after the fact, not request permission -imho.

cavortingcheetah
22nd Apr 2006, 09:52
:ugh:

Some one on this thread asked the rhetorical question:

As mentioned on a previous post here do any of you really believe that any of us would be so stupid as to knowingly poison one of (probably) the only 2 people on the a/c that know how to control it?!?! Hello!!! We want to get home safely too!

:hmm: Yes well, I fear that that question has already been answered. QED.:yuk:

rupert the bear
22nd Apr 2006, 10:10
Storm in a teacup:}

Hand Solo
22nd Apr 2006, 11:03
do any of you really believe that any of us would be so stupid as to knowingly poison one of (probably) the only 2 people on the a/c that know how to control it?!?! Hello!!! We want to get home safely too!!

I've flown with a crewmember who volunteered that she'd tampered with the smoke detector in the lavs on a charter flight so she could have a cigarette. With that kind of stupidity I'll believe anything can happen. Cause and effect are not concepts readily understood by people like that. I am also aware that some cabin crew think we have two pilots on board because it's part of our industrial agreement and the aircraft could operate just as well with one so there'd be no worries about an incapacitation from them, it would just be an inconvenience.

Rainboe
22nd Apr 2006, 11:16
I've got to say I'm quite stunned by the last two pages of this thread! They seem to admit that it does happen, there is a problem, how and what, then says it's a 'storm in a teacup'. Bewildering, disgusting and frightening at the same time.

Flying Lawyer
22nd Apr 2006, 11:17
Blocking a smoke detector in the lavs for a cigarette to interfering with pilots' food is quite a leap, and not one which IMHO can be logically and reasonably made.
I don't think that does anything to support claims that CC have been known to interfere with pilots' food.

Rainboe
My reaction to several of the recent comments was the same.

Albert Driver
22nd Apr 2006, 13:36
..........as does the mere "threat" to interfere with the flight crews' performance of their duties - under penalty of a long prison sentence.

So, who wants to go first?

EffohX
22nd Apr 2006, 15:33
I once had an FA tell me she'd 'panned' a captain's steak. When I told her, rather pointedly, that she'd endangered her own life as well every other person on the aircraft, it was quite obvious she hadn't considered that implication at all. She was NOT a junior crew, either.

RoyHudd
22nd Apr 2006, 17:23
Got a long-haul flight tomorrow. Just been to M & S to buy myself pre-packed food for the trip. Which is better than what's on offer from crew food anyhow, but.....

Safer and sadder, I admit. But why should I need to do this, when probably 99% of our CC would never consider such stupid and dangerous behaviour? We are working with some really sick people, going by the contents of the previous contributions. I feel sick. (No joke)

ChewyTheWookie
22nd Apr 2006, 21:52
Sorry StohD, but
"The Cabin Crew have to ask Capt. permission (on BA) to open the 'sealed' medical kit."
We only have to advise you after the fact, not request permission -imho.

I can confirm that, the crew do not have to ask permission.

etrang
23rd Apr 2006, 05:13
As mentioned on a previous post here do any of you really believe that any of us would be so stupid as to knowingly poison one of (probably) the only 2 people on the a/c that know how to control it?!?!

Sadly, yes i do. And if you read the thread you will find that several others do as well.

Albert Driver
23rd Apr 2006, 10:14
Rainboe was right when he pointed the finger at BA Cabin Crew Training. For decades now disenchanted older CC have gone into Training and spread their poison to the new trainees completely unchecked. It is the younger CC we all have to fear as they are the ones who might just do this without the common sense or experience to realise the possible consequences to themselves as well as everyone else on board.
BA Cabin Crew Training needs to be taken apart and rebuilt, for the sake of BA as a whole.
When I had my incident the only written acknowledgement or communication I ever received came from Cabin Crew Training, who wanted to talk about it.
It's my biggest regret now that at the time I was so angry with the whole CC thing that I couldn't bring myself to follow it up. That was a bad mistake and I hope that if ever any other Flight Crew get an opportunity to point out the failings of BA Cabin Crew Training they grasp it warmly by the throat.

Hot Wings
23rd Apr 2006, 10:57
I also point the finger at BA Cabin Crew training. They instill a negative view of pilots or "Flight Deck" from day 1. For example, refering to feeding the "Flight Deck" as "the tosser service".

Remember, BA pilots, your job is to fly cabin crew to shopping malls around the world whilst helping them get box payments along the way!

skiesfull
23rd Apr 2006, 17:08
Suddenly freighters look more appealing!

OzzieO
23rd Apr 2006, 21:44
It is certainly not only a BA issue. Cabin crew tampering with flight deck food allegedly occurs in almost every airline in the UK.

old-timer
23rd Apr 2006, 21:56
From my experience the food 'as is' is pretty dodgy anyway so I don't think
a few eye drops will do much worse ?


From my point of view I always treated EVERY member of crew with respect
including the guys & gals on the ramp - I'm old school (which is sadly boring these days I guess), but in my book everyone is equal, irrespective of role -
I never experienced the problems reported - times change I guess - but
progress sucks in that case !

Keep safe everyone !:8

411A
23rd Apr 2006, 22:40
Like the posts above, I very seldom had much of a problem with CC, but when I did, they were offloaded, PDQ.
Simple as that.

As for catering, if I suspected a slight 'problem', I would stroll back and cook my own, and serve it up, accordingly.

THEN, offload any malcontent in sight.
Period.
GONE.....:E

PS: The company backed me up, every damn time.
Strange as it seems, it worked, without fail.

Malcontents....color 'em just that, and bye bye.:ok:

overstress
23rd Apr 2006, 23:50
Nostalgia's not what it used to be, 411A! ;)

alibaba
24th Apr 2006, 00:06
You are being quoted in the People newspaper if you can call it that, guy's and gal's. "BA CABINCREW POISION PILOTS" or something like that. :(

Time to stop being petty and get on with our jobs. The public are looking at this and they probably don't like what they are seeing. :ugh:

Stop trying to damage the reputation of the company. It's a free world and we can all express our opinions but trying to rile a section of our work colleagues is out of order and bad CRM.

Rainboe
24th Apr 2006, 00:24
Yes, it is horrible, isn't it? Why does it happen (allegedly)? How does someone actually DO that to another human being? And one who is actually flying them at that? Is it possibly the most stupid human act on record? 'HeHeHe' (to quote StohdohRayMeFahSoLahTeeDoh......just read the last post on page 5). Immensely sad, but most of all, utterly moronic.

britanniaboy
24th Apr 2006, 00:47
Sadly yes, when I started in this business 20 years ago cabin crew were generally, well educated decent people. This has deteriorated gradually to the situation now where to be cabin crew is a last resort for most.

Hmmm. And when I started in this business 5 years ago, it was Flight Crew of your "opinion" that I disliked the most: arrogant, presumptuous and stuck in the "good old days".

The majority of Cabin Crew are well-educated and respectful people. Me? I have a degree in Geology but enjoy flying. One of my friends gave up a good job for a major telecoms company and who also has a degree in Management. Several other of my friends attended college prior to choosing flying.

Most crew have chosen to be crew as it is something we enjoy and want to do; it is not a "last resort". It is still a difficult job to get into, as the number of poeple who are rejected year-on-year will testify to.

Perhaps if you are of the opinion that you seem to be, commercial aviation is maybe not your best niche. Maybe it is your last resort as clearly you lack the interpersonal skills most other jobs require.

ChewyTheWookie
24th Apr 2006, 00:56
At least the media have picked up on this at last.
http://www.people.co.uk/news/news/tm_objectid=16981858%26method=full%26siteid=93463-name_page.html
What a load of crap. The paper isn't even correct. It was not posted on a pilot's website, it was posted on the cabin crew website, for cabin crew only and was blatently a joke. Are people really banned from having a private joke these days?
NLB, why are you happy that the media have picked up on this? Are you one of the people who is trying to destroy BA and the airline industry? BA are conducting an internal investigation and that is exactly where this should lie, INTERNALLY, if it has to be investigated at all. I find an investigation completely over the top anyway.

britanniaboy
24th Apr 2006, 01:04
Today, 23:47 #131
'britanniaboy', calm down, no offence intented, your reply is hardly relevant to this discussion.

No offence intended? Forgive me, but how exactly would you expect to Crew to take that comment? Fortunately, I don't tarnish all Flight Crew with the same brush. You should give it a try. :E

You posted it.

I replied to it.

Therefore: relevant.

ChewyTheWookie
24th Apr 2006, 01:04
I just personally think that anything in the media which portrays the airline industry in a negative light should be frowned upon.

ChewyTheWookie
24th Apr 2006, 01:23
In my opinion this is all a massive overreaction. How often has a pilot become ill during a flight due to food being tampered with? I have NEVER heard of someone actually doing anything, despite hearing the odd joke made.

If you are genuinely worried about this happening to you then I suggest you simply look at the way you treat the cabin crew. If you are polite and value them and their job then you have nothing to worry about. If, like a minority of pilots, you look down your nose at them and speak to them like they are idiots then you may have more of a problem, BUT it is highly highly unlikely that anyone would do anything.

The fact that pilots often eat out in places (especially in Africa) where hygiene is very poor and then fly home is much more of a worry for me. A steak wiped round the bog is probably safer than a meal at some of the places that pilots like to frequent, often eating the same thing!

Idunno
24th Apr 2006, 03:40
The majority of Cabin Crew are well-educated and respectful people.Yeah, and there's a minority who are utter bimbos.

Linden
24th Apr 2006, 05:49
Once again the stories of crew meals being interfered with comes up and everyone adopts their fighting position. On the one side we have the pilots who mostly accept that this happens and the cabin crew on the other side who mostly assert that it does not. In the middle we have those who don't know, those who want to sidetrack to other issues, and those who just want to make smart comments. Battle stations everyone.

Surprisingly, in spite of clear evidence that eye drops can not and do not cause a person to "get the runs" people are choosing to ignore that and are still trying to keep the myth going. Those who have understood that the myth has been sprung have moved on to other horrible things that cabin crew are alleged to have done (to the food) in an attempt to "make their point."

Some have asserted that they know from experience, or have been told, or have heard about these things - without even stopping to think that the person telling the story might just be having a lend of them. It seems to me that the same old thing about human nature is holding true - why believe something good of a person when there might be something bad you can talk about?

I've been hearing these stories for years and would be extremely reluctant to give them credit. As others have said, some sort of proof is needed and proof does not arise from stories told in a bar or in any situation where people have been drinking. Most of the cabin crew have denied outright that this sort of behavior exists but there are people here who prefer to believe the minority who like to tell their stories. Interestingly, it seems that a lot of the pilots who have posted here have believed the stories almost without question. Some pretty senior pilots amongst them too. I am not sure if this demonstrates the truth of the tales or the gullibility of pilots. ;)

I was somewhat surprised though to see a mod from the helicopter division enter the fray - I mean, helos are not normally known for carrying cabin crew or serving meals are they? Unless a person has worked in the specific environment, they cannot be expected to know too much about it - just my opinion of course. Mind you, nobody who visits here on a regular basis could really fail to notice Heliport's antagonistic attitude towards cabin crew so it is not surprising that he prefers to be in the "I believe every word of it" camp regardless of his lack of experience in the arena. He never misses an opportunity to snipe at cabin crew.

I am more of a lurker than a poster, I know, but I just wanted to add my ten cents' worth to the discussion. For what it's worth - I've never heard of it happening and I don't know anyone who has ever done anything like that.

bigflaps
24th Apr 2006, 09:39
Sadly yes, when I started in this business 20 years ago cabin crew were generally, well educated decent people. This has deteriorated gradually to the situation now where to be cabin crew is a last resort for most.

nlb i think u had better re-phrase ur comments which i find deeply insulting. becomming cabin crew 4 ba is definatley not a last resort for most.
i have flown with this f.o who wrote the letter about crew not being utilalised efectively and all i can say is (I disagree with him.)

Edited

overstress
24th Apr 2006, 10:19
What's up, OzzieO? Feeling touchy this a.m.?

OzzieO
24th Apr 2006, 10:21
Touchy no not at all.

Having been involved in the Kegworth incident I really think good crm between pilots and cabin crew is vital. Posts like yours do nothing to help.

I am not going to say anything more on the matter.

overstress
24th Apr 2006, 10:31
Good crm can be categorised as follows: (CAA)

Co-operation - teambuilding, consideration, supporting, conflict resolution

- Leadership/Managerial Skills - assertiveness, providing & maintaining standards, planning & coordination, workload management

- Situational Awareness - anticipation, awareness of system, environment

- Decision Making - problem definition & diagnosis, generation of options, risk assessment, choice of options, review of outcome

Having one of my colleagues referred to as a t*sser by a cc member causes me to dig deeply into my 'co-operation' resources as listed above, that's all.

It's best we all leave this now, I guess.

flybywire
24th Apr 2006, 20:59
These are the same CC trainers that teach the new entrant CC to remember the extinguisher locations in the flight deck of a 757 by.... "Water behind the W*nk*r and BCF behind the B*rst*rd".
Perhaps I'm of a different generation but I object to such practises, am I wrong?
No wonder when the new CC they get on line they have already been indoctrinated.

I've been told about this thread by a friend, and to be honest haven't managed to read all the posts. I didn't know whether to laugh (oh yes I laughed so much!) or to cry.

I wish I had met such trainers in BA who use these innovative teaching methods!! My trainers instead were professionals, and the training course so good and intense that when we finally got tested for evacuation procedures it felt real.

There are about 16000 cabin crew in BA, and even if what you guys have been saying is true, you cannot generalise on such numbers.
BA cabin crew are always bashed for things like money, rosters or perks etc. but we are a group of professionals, and we would NEVER endanger the aircraft and our own lives! If this is the idea you have of us then maybe it's YOUR CRM trainers that have to do some extra work!:rolleyes:

I have just come back from a day trip. We weren't busy on the way out and I spent 15 mins in the F/D chatting to the Captain and a brand new F/O.
We had a laugh. Yesterday I was the galley slave (term regularly used by pilots in BA to identify the forward galley CC position, by the way, but none of us gets upset by it!:hmm: ) and had a great day. I cannot speak for LHR but at LGW we have an excellent relationship with our Flight Crew. Of course there are exceptions, but the majority of CC and FC enjoy each other's company downroute and during the flight. We look after each other and despite our fleet is the one that works the most we end up having a very good time at work almost every day. It's not unusual for who works at the back of the plane to receive a call from the F/D asking how we are and vice versa.

To say that BA trainers are doing such a bad job like somebody else has mentioned in another post (and giving such details) is an accusation that if it's true you have to prove it and then it would be your responsibility to report it to the company. As far as I am concerned they're professional people who know their job inside out. The CRM training I received in BA was the best of all the companies I worked for and nobody said anything bad about FC.

As for being jealous of FC money....hahaha. I don't see all this jealousy that you guys are talking about...I just don't see it. We do different jobs, full stop. Besides, there are some CSDs at LHR that earn more than some pilots!!!!
And this unfortunately might create some resentment on your side of the F/D door....:ugh:

This is the first time I've read something that not only isn't true, but also isn't interesting at all and I am surprised how some people that I would call professional pilots can even bother to start a thread like this and keep stirring things up more and more.......I think I err the opposite way, and I might have to start thinking a bit less of you:\

Just call it a day, please, and if you have problems with your CC during your flights, just approach them and talk to them. You can obtain that a) you solve the possible conflict situation before it can develop and you might gain more respect, and b) you might even discover that you get along after all as you've only misunderstood each other.

You have a tongue, USE IT!!!! (and this can be interpreted the way you like it :E)


Enough now, I am off for some serious CRM with my very own Water Extinguisher. :}

FBW :)

apaddyinuk
24th Apr 2006, 22:52
FBW....What an excellent last post on the matter.
And Chewie, Im also with you on this one.
This is another example of this PC world gone mad where one group of people are totally unable to say something with a pinch of salt and not have it thrown back in their face! We jest all the time about doing things to those who disagree or confront us in ALL walks of life...but it does not mean we will actually act upon them. Its simply a way of venting out emotions and the crew forum is simply a tool for that.
If people are going to take everything seriously then they really need a smack in the face....ooohhh, actually, maybe I should clarify, no im not going to hunt you all down to smack you in the face!!!! GRRRR

Albert Driver
25th Apr 2006, 08:45
We jest all the time about doing things to those who disagree or confront us in ALL walks of life...but it does not mean we will actually act upon them.

Try that one on Security at Heathrow or Gatwick sometime.

overstress
25th Apr 2006, 09:31
If people are going to take everything seriously

Paddy I think it's a bit like one of us making a spoof alert call, telling you we're about to crash, then saying 'only joking'. If a BA pilot pulled that stunt, reports would soon wing their way to your management, don't you think?

Once you've opened your mouth and made an inappropriate remark, as I well know, you can't take it back and expect everything to stay the same.

Rainboe
25th Apr 2006, 09:35
Try and squash it all you like, many times over the years I have had it said seriously and truthfully to me that flight deck food has been tampered with, and I have even asked them to confirm it and they have. It does happen, I know it goes on and you should stop pretending it is an idle threat. It is going on all the time when certain people feel they have been aggrieved, and rather than try and squash all mention of the whole problem, we should be looking at how to stop these particular individuals carrying out this practice every time their noses are put out of joint. Some of the cabin crew postings here make it quite plain the practice is ongoing. It is up to cabin crew to stamp this out. So rather than bury the problem and pretend it doesn't happen ( it's only a 'joke'), why not keep your house in order?

flybywire
25th Apr 2006, 10:02
I fly an average of 3 sectors every day, six days a week and never once I heard the call "SCCM to the F/D" for a pilot incapacitation. Never once I went into the flight deck and got asked for sick bags etc. And food poisoning can show its effects almost immediately as it's a defence of the body to get rid of the offensive element as quickly as possibly.

If what you say is true and you have the proof that it's happened for real, by all means report the offenders now, do not wait for another FC to fall victim of these "vicious" CC. :hmm:

It all depends how you treat your crew.......my Flight Crew treat me (us in general) very well, they take care of us and we do the same. When I am "galley slave" I make sure they choose what they want to eat first, I offer Club food to them if there's some left...when we board at 5am I make sure I give them a cup of tea or coffee (I ask do you like it strong/weak with lots of milk etc) and I steal the Club biscuits and give them to them - everybody loves the Bourbons and the Custard ones.:ok: If I work at the back I make a point to call them even during a short flight and if the workload permits I go for a short visit in the flight deck.

I am not obliged to do all these things, it's just out of courtesy but our Boys and Girls have earned to be treated in such a way as they are really good with us. They involve us in some decision making and they always show lots of respect for us. We have a degree of familiarity and understanding that I've never experienced in any other airline. We talk, joke, laugh together :} and the days fly by quickly. From a human point of view we're on the same plane :E (excuse the pun but it was necessary!) while we still remember who is in charge.

That new F/D door has become a bigger communication barrier than I ever thought. But it's up to you not to let it come in the way, and especially do not use it as an excuse for not interacting with each other!!!! You're not sitting on a throne and if you see that the CC aren't very "sociable" to start with, you're not 5y.o. anymore, you can start the conversation yourselves!!! In many cases you'll get a positive response. If not......well, just learn to tolerate each other without making things difficult for each other!!!:{

Sorry for this serious tone, but I think you guys are trying to find excuses!
The mature way to deal with this matter would be : you have the proof that someone has done it to you, then report them. But remember you must have the proof. Talking about it on these terms on pprune won't make things better. It can only make things worse.

Cheer up, chill out and have a safe flight.

FBW

Capt. Queeg
25th Apr 2006, 10:05
there are some CSDs at LHR that earn more than some pilots!!!!Well I'm not sure if earn is the right word for it...... :E

flybywire
25th Apr 2006, 10:43
Well I'm not sure if earn is the right word for it...... :E

You've just proved my point! Thank you :}

ChewyTheWookie
25th Apr 2006, 12:23
Paddy I think it's a bit like one of us making a spoof alert call, telling you we're about to crash, then saying 'only joking'.

It worries me that a few commercial pilots, responsible for multimillion pound aircraft and hundreds of lives, cannot see the difference between a joke comment on a private website and a spoof alert call on a scheduled airline service.

The way some of you are talking there's no wonder you worry about your food getting screwed about with.

whatdoesthisbuttondo
25th Apr 2006, 14:02
Isn't this forum part of the Flight Deck Forums.

I thought it was a kind of club for pilots.

I think the hosties have their own section. I wouldn't dream of posting on it.

Actually I've just checked the hostie forums and It seems that loads of pilots are milling about there.

I blame CRM myself.

overstress
25th Apr 2006, 16:47
Chewy. That's why I said it was a bit like it. Not the same as.

You're worried? What about our customers?

Joke wasn't funny, anyway, and a 'private website' comment has found itself on here.

ChewyTheWookie
25th Apr 2006, 18:41
Chewy. That's why I said it was a bit like it. Not the same as.
You're worried? What about our customers?
Joke wasn't funny, anyway, and a 'private website' comment has found itself on here.

Personally I don't find it one bit like it at all...

Whether it was funny or not is irrelevant. It was still said on a private website and it's not the authors fault if a nosey pilot sneaked on and took a peek...

Flying Lawyer
25th Apr 2006, 19:22
As an outsider observing the discussion, I'm puzzled by the attempts by some to suggest that a joke (allegedly) on the BASSA website is the beginning and end of discussion.
Maybe the eye-drops suggestion was a 'joke' and there has been an over-reaction.
Or maybe it's reasonable to be concerned that such a suggestion should be made on a private website for people whose job includes serving food.

Either way, the attempts seem to completely overlook food tampering mentioned in this thread on this website - including by one CC poster with many years in the job (StohDznehDoPrikaza) who said eyedrops incidents were a myth but related some other rather disgusting incidents. (He/she offered the reassurance that food tampering was a very rare occurrence.)

ChewyTheWookie
25th Apr 2006, 21:47
Everyone has gone way over the top with this! I doubt there is a crew member out there who can say they have never cracked a joke about doing something to someone's food, be it passengers', other cabin crew's or pilot's. Until someone actually does it and it can be proven just get over it.

I operated a flight the other day and when one of the engines was shutdown during taxi, the FO turned to me and jokingly said they'd thought about doing it during the cruise to save fuel. Going by what some of you are saying here, should he not have said that? Do you consider that comment inappropriate? Should I be demanding that the company investigate it?

wotsyors
25th Apr 2006, 21:51
Ah yes, but people can only speak for themselves. Because they haven`t done a particular thing doesn`t make it a myth, and what they have done, allegedly, doesn`t make it widespread.
Still worrying though.

apaddyinuk
26th Apr 2006, 02:11
And can I just add.....If I remember correctly eye drops were removed from the basic first aid kit on BA flights YEARS ago. They are in the M5 kit but after all, if thats open the pilot will know about it long before the crew even get a chance to spike his/her food....OOPS, HAVE I JUST SUGGESTED THAT AT THIS MOMENT I AM SPIKING A CAPTAINS DRINK???

Seriously, Im sure a similiar thread like this has been done to death in the past and it should really go down as an urban legend and those stupid enough to actually do it should have the A4 size hard binder copy of FCO's thrown at them!

sikeano
26th Apr 2006, 09:13
ah it is so boring :yuk:
can we call time on this please now:ok:

chornedsnorkack
26th Apr 2006, 12:10
Everyone has gone way over the top with this! I doubt there is a crew member out there who can say they have never cracked a joke about doing something to someone's food, be it passengers', other cabin crew's or pilot's. Until someone actually does it and it can be proven just get over it.

A Garuda FA did actually poison a passenger, and that was proven.

apaddyinuk
26th Apr 2006, 13:32
A Garuda FA did actually poison a passenger, and that was proven.

Yeah, and the passenger was a politician and it was considered assisination...A totally different thing altogether!

Rapid
26th Apr 2006, 19:07
Todays Manchester Evening News

A row has broken out among air crew amid claims air hostesses threatened to poison a pilot.
The row is said to have started after a BA FO wrote a letter to an airline newspaper criticising cabin attendants rosters. But he recieved an unexpected response from members of a cabin crew's union internet forum.
One disgruntled chatroom member reportedly said "Me thinks eye drops in the coffee!!" Watch ur food and drink very carefully Mr xxxxxxx".
The alleged comments on the private British Airlines Steward And Stewerdesses Association (BASSA) forum caused a storm of protest after they were quoted on a pilots website.
One writer on the widely read Proffesional Pilots Rumour Network ( PPRuNe ) said the FO had been "inundated with threats" to poison him with eyedrops.
Another said "The stories make me feel sick. It is not just eyedrops. One would feel lucky if it was just that". One commentator said " I'm cabin crew for the said company and would never consider poisoning one of my fellow workers."
Another said "Grow up. Its just a bit of banter on the forum. Things are taken too seriously these days. Just laugh and get on with it".
It is not the first time that chatroom pilots have expressed concerns about alleged threats to spike their coffee during a flight.
One writer in 2004 quoted a cabin attendant as saying "If he wants a cappuccino he would ave the best one ever - specially made - but i can't let you all in on my special bland. It's all in the beans, of course!"
BASSA is part of the Transport and General Workers Union. A TGWU spokesman said " Maybe if the pilot had thought before opening his mouth, he would'nt be at the butt end of the story now".
Balpa, the pilots union, woiuld not comment.
A spokesman for BA said "We have spoken to the pilot and he has not made any complaint."
It is believed eyedrops cause diarrhoea when they are swallowed. Some contain tetrahydrozoline, which can be dangerous if swallowed.

Few Cloudy
26th Apr 2006, 21:19
Proffesional?

Not very eh?

ChewyTheWookie
26th Apr 2006, 22:37
Anyone else find it a little odd that the person who posted the apparent newspaper article chose to type the whole thing out himself instead of copying and pasting? This is quite obvious due to the abbreviations used... The fact that some of the phrasing and poor grammar are certainly not of mainstream media standard leads me to wonder if the article is genuine, especially considering that I have searched all over the place now and cannot find the original... Can someone please post a link to the article itself to confirm is authenticity?

Rainboe
27th Apr 2006, 00:37
I don't think newspaper articles are important. Peculiar cryptic messages from Shohraymefahlohtatedoh that are not understandable, treating the problem as a joke whilst hinting in the background some of this disgusting practice has occured, and is ongoing, is important. Rather than we all try and pretend numerous references to it by many, many cabin crew people to many other crew is all 'a joke' (some joke), perhaps we should look at how to stop it. Too many people over far too long have hinted and admitted it happens to try and pretend nobody was serious. The response appears to be 'the pilots should treat us better.....or else! Now let's shut up about this before the press gets hold of it!'.

It is a severe problem. From the comments I have heard on trips, I am of the opinion that often more than one person in a galley knows it is happening and goes along with it. So let's forget the origin of unimportant articles and go back to how to stop the problem, however cabin crew may feel they have been sleighted, insulted, treated badly or whatever?

ChewyTheWookie
27th Apr 2006, 01:08
You speak like this is a common problem and it happens every day. IT DOES NOT. I have never ever seen it happen or heard of it happening. Yes I have heard jokes made about it, yes I have made jokes about it myself but there is a big difference between saying and doing.

If I can work full time as cabin crew, doing on average 3 sectors a day for a major airliner and never see any evidence of tampering with pilots food then it is clearly not as big a problem as people are making out. I really do suggest that everyone stops overreacting about this.

If some people are gullible enough to believe everything that goes around on Galley FM then I have serious worries about them flying airliners.

Karma-Air
27th Apr 2006, 02:34
Maybe you guys out there can enlighten me?

Is this stuff just paranoia? or what?


K-A:eek:

Rainboe
27th Apr 2006, 09:27
It's not paranoia when you are proudly told Bennie O, Toad of Toad Hall and Ron 'the Blade' (all from years ago) have been 'done', many times. When it comes up in conversation, occasionally over the years with assurances it has been done, but 'no names', up until just a few years ago, but then I decided I didn't want to socialise with such people. Sweep it under the carpet, but the problem doesn't go away. Maybe you are being naive in thinking because you have not indulged yourself, nobody else is, but there are a lot of spiteful people amongst the general good who quietly get on with it. They do it, and sometimes readily admit to such, but without names. I do not think I am being paranoid when it has been admitted in my hearing several times over the years. At room parties, a bit of gentle probing brings out the admissions. Maybe I am simple and too black and white, but I believe when people admit something there is robably a bit of truth in the rumour.

Jumbo Driver
27th Apr 2006, 10:20
I'm with Rainboe on this - I may even have been at the same room parties in years gone by!

It's a minority that is involved, of course, but it has happened. The classic characters he mentions unfortunately used to attract such treatment.




[Benny, Bunny, Bob, Robert, Godfrey - his name changed so often .... aaah, such nostalgia ... :{ ]