Porter Airlines [Archive]

J.O.

29th Apr 2006, 19:05

Would it be worth it to leave a job I had now to go there. What are their chances of survival?

The answer to your question may lie in your current situation. Are you feeling like you've reached the peak of opportunities in your current job? Would moving to Porter be a pay increase? Are you experienced enough to get a direct entry into the left seat? If the answer to all of those questions is "yes", then maybe you should give it a go. Just remember, they do not yet have a license, and they are stepping into a political minefield. For me personally, I wouldn't even think about it, especially with the mayor on a campaign to kill the whole idea before it begins, but then again, I can't say yes to any of the questions I asked above, so my perspective is defintely skewed to saying "no". For those who are hoping it's a success, I really do hope I am wrong about their future prospects. I know several of their managers, and they're a good group.

WRC

30th Apr 2006, 14:46

Nothing is for sure, but I will say the Deluces know the airline business, having worked for them in the past.

TRU

1st May 2006, 11:55

They have applied for the licenses and are just playing the waiting game with TC. Typical.

Captain's salary $72K, FO's $40K. Taking delivery of 4 Q400's and then subsequent deleveries to follow at a later date.

I believe last week was the last for interviews. Probably the next round of interviews will be near years end, when the next set of deleveries are set to happen.

aerogull

1st May 2006, 19:38

$72K for Captains
$45K for F/O's

10 scheduled days off a month + 3 to 5 "gray" days

TRU

1st May 2006, 20:28

In my interview I was told $40K for FO's. :confused:

MarkD

2nd May 2006, 01:15

I really hope this airline survives long enough to shove it right up Sparrow and his CommunityAir mates ar$es.

faireydelta

2nd May 2006, 22:05

I had my interview April 17th and was told it would be about 2 weeks before I'd hear anything. Has anyone here been contacted yet?
The interview was very laid back and the people seemed very nice. They interviewed for two weeks straight so they must have talked to quite a few people. Their 1st course is in June, but start date is in fall, so it sounds like they talked to so many in order to set up a "pool"...simply surmising since they said they'd stay at 4 A/C til sometime in 2008. Point being, I don't expect them to interview again soon...just my guess, not based on anything I am privy to.

TRU

2nd May 2006, 23:35

I had my interview last week and was told we should be hearing from them by the end of this week.

No more planes till 2008? I thought they said they would be adding a couple more by the beginning of 2007, when they start to service cities cross border.

faireydelta

3rd May 2006, 00:01

My mistake, I meant 2007. That's the info I got anyway. Good luck to you.

TRU

3rd May 2006, 00:26

Thanks. Good luck to you as well.

Beattle

3rd May 2006, 02:42

Lots of upgrades being done to CYTZ. New ferry terminal, which is coming along nicely. By kicking out Jazz, and moving tenants to other hangers to make room for them, they are planning for a long stay, which, with no compitition might work for them. The only hassle they may have, are the people that live by the airport (the ones who didn't want the bridge) and them complaining about the noise (which isn't very much, as I have seen the Q doing some circuit work on 26). Course, the way I see it, if I moved into a condo knowing there was an island with an airport on it, I would expect to hear planes. I think they will be there for awhile.

I look forward to the day I hop on the new ferry, walk to the end of it, and know it will only take me 30 seconds to get to the other side then the very long 60 seconds it takes now. Its all about saving time. :)

Just thought I would add my two pesos.

brucelee

3rd May 2006, 12:25

Is the bridge still being considered?

MarkD

4th May 2006, 03:40

Apparently Harper's crew are going to run the rule over TPA - not sure how any good's going to come of that but we'll see.

bzh

4th May 2006, 15:10

how can you run a fully loaded Q400 (up to 60000 lbs)on a year round service out of that runway?, they better have good brakes or they'll be in for a swim.....

According to the bombardier website, the Q400's specifications include figures for "airfield performance" -- a measure required by U.S. regulators. For a 70-passenger Q400 with enough fuel to fly its maximum distance, the runway required for takeoff is 1,402 metres, with 1,287 metres required for landing.

the runway is 1220m even with lower fuel it doesn't leave mutch margin for error..........

TRU

4th May 2006, 16:41

Gee, I guess they never looked at the performance graphs. Somebody better phone Deluce and let him know!

brucelee

4th May 2006, 21:42

Is there still an ILS at YTZ? I would assume so.
Don't count the Deluce's out. They wouldn't be doing this if there was no money in it.

Beattle

5th May 2006, 02:57

08 is still ILS. I believe they are working on 26 as well. Lots of work being done, and have seen transport Canada playing around on 26.

Not sure of the specs of the Q, but I am guessing, if they bought some, they took all the factors into it landing at this airport. I have seen the Herc land and take off from 26, i'm sure the Q can handle it. Although, thats just my opinion..... All I know, is my little 172 does just fine :)

MarkD

5th May 2006, 13:59

bzh

The Porter Q4s will not be at max pax load - Deluce has already said this. He is aiming at business travellers as far as I can see so seating is probably going to be nearer 70 than the 78 cram-them-in spec.

faireydelta

5th May 2006, 19:27

Any intreviewees heard back from them yet?

TRU

5th May 2006, 21:32

Still patiently waiting.

rigpiggy

6th May 2006, 02:39

Here are the specs from q400.com

Performance

Range: NM SM KM
Maximum range
(70 pax @ 200 lb) MCR, ISA, SL 1,362 1,567 2,522

Speeds:
Maximum cruise speed 360 kts 414 mph 667 km/h

Airfield Performance:
FAR takeoff field length
(SL, ISA, MTOW, HGW) 4,600 ft 1,402 m
FAR landing field length
(SL, ISA, MLW, HGW) 4,221 ft 1,287 m
Takeoff field length for 500nm sector
(ISA, 70 Pax, IGW) 3,720 ft 1,134 m
Landing field length for 500nm sector
(ISA, 70 Pax, IGW) 3,380 ft 1,030 m

Ceiling:
Maximum operating altitude 25,000 ft 7,620 m

brucelee

6th May 2006, 13:17

Not what I would call a Short Field performer. Everything else looks good though.

MarkD

7th May 2006, 17:00

I suspect those specs have been posted recently to shut up the CommunityAIR press releases that Q400 is unsafe out of CYTZ at the current runway spec, since 70 seats and 500nm is coincidentally where Deluce is pitching his services.

aha... see here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041009201740/http://q400.com/q400/en/specifications.jsp

bzh

7th May 2006, 23:36

still small margin, wouldn't want to get a v1 cut with those number, even landing, you'll see a lot off burn tires and printed fingers on the controls.... i'll sell them brakes pads and make a fortune....for operating cost he's not going to be low cost, not in those condition.... well below gross, wear and all the missed for contaminated runway... good luck and be carfull out there, I had to use good braking on a tailwind ILS there before, I was just a loaded 1900 on a weet runway and fog. With those wage, they are not attracting the most experience guys out there.........75K in YTZ???? TTC bus drivers makes that...with better working conditions and a retirement plan...

rigpiggy

8th May 2006, 00:29

Porter is running the IGW version, so meets the YTZ specs. Anybody with an FOM for the 300 want to comment, FWIW the 300 is limited under 4000 ft as well.

Alphopper

10th May 2006, 21:03

Is the 70$ quote for Captains before or after tax? And it is in CND right? This is interesting as a friend of mine is flying the 400 in the UK.... and the differences in salary between Europe and Amerika is big..

MarkD

11th May 2006, 05:37

maybe they're hoping to pick up South African Express pilots in due course - (they've just had their first Q400 delivered :E ) C$75k sounds more impressive when you convert to Rand.

bcflyer

11th May 2006, 14:36

Alphopper, just curious what your friend makes flying the 400 in the UK? I'm sure its higher but I believe the cost of living is alot higher there as well. Might just balance out in the end.

J.O.

11th May 2006, 18:38

Vey few pilot jobs in Europe give equal buying power to comparable jobs in North America, never mind exceeding it.

Alphopper

12th May 2006, 12:05

meaw

12th May 2006, 12:36

alphopper,

What does a decent house cost in Vienna?How big the land and how many square feet for that price?
What does it cost you for groceries for let's say two people a month? etc...

For the 30,000$ or so difference between the 2 salaries I am willing to bet that it is the Canadian who has the most bang for his buck.
I have friends in Europe as well who earn more than me but I wouldn't want their quality of life for a million bucks....it's all relative.

gumbi

12th May 2006, 14:58

Well, I don't know about Austria, but in Paris, a 600-700 sq.ft. appartment (2 very small bedrooms, one tiny bathroom, not to mention a cramped kitchen...) runs at about 150000-180000 euros (150k being in the suburb, 15 minutes from downtown)!!!

So one would have to make more than 70k euros take home to equal our quality of life, no?

J.O.

12th May 2006, 15:15

J.O.... I would disagree with you kompletely... We are very priveledge in Austria, at AUA.. we earn "A" grade salaries.. and my friend who flies also in Vienna with Tyrolean as Captain on the Dash 400 (comparable since we are talking Dash 400) earns a takehome salary per month of 4400 Euro, plus it is the law here in Austria that we get a 13 (June), and 14 (November) salary where the income is only taxed at 6%.... if you can beet that in North Amerika, I would like to know where.. my friend took home last year just around 70 000 Euro after taxes (aprox just under 100 000 Canada Dollars)... for flying 2:00 hr legs on a Dash 400 plus 5 weeks holiday per year.... almost what we earn at AUA!

Alphopper:

I know enough about your cost of living to know that it's about double that of ours in Canada on a dollar for dollar basis. When making the comarison, one must look at the cost of goods and services. Food, fuel, automobiles, consumer goods and housing are all far more expensive in western Europe (I would estimate 60 to 80% more on average). When you live and work near the larger cities (Vienna, London, Frankfurt, Paris, etc) it's even more expensive.

cplpilot

12th May 2006, 16:10

I grew-up in Italy and i have been in Canada for 10 years.
Meat and milk are cheaper in Canada, fruit and veggies are the same than Italy. Rent in Toronto is the same than Milan but the apartments are better there, Hydro and water are chaper in in Canada (almost half).
I have few friends in europe, one is F/O in a Lear 45, he is 37 has a 1 bedroom apt. in Milan paid in Full, a nice car paid in full and money in the bank... he make around 4000 euros (clean money, taxes already out) per month.
Another friens is captain in Milan (DC10), he has a nice house in lower-piemonte (paid in full) 2 kids, a stay-at-home wife and makes around 6500 euros per month. etc...
My friend in Edmonton on the 737 was making 38K gross and had to borrow money from the family often.... there is NO doubt that salaries are higher, you get jet-job also with 400 hours and, come on! the food is the best no?:ok:

Alphopper

13th May 2006, 17:11

I think the others are a little green around the gills!! My family has relatives in Vancouver and where I live in Austria the cost of living is far less than in Vancouver. Just face the facts.... we are better paid, have a better social net (not just 12 days of sick leave per year.... you can be gone for 6 months and get full pay for the first four then a 2/3 after that, plus all medical costs paid for by the government)... and we can start on a 777, 340, 320, 737, Dash8 400, F70/100, CRJ, etc etc etc... with 200 hrs.... while our cousins in Canada visit chief pilots in some northern dump every year just to get to drive the fork lift for the summer (read Buffalo Joe in YellowKnife).... then after a few years of that they have the priveledge of fueling and getting closer to the right seat.... I know this because my cousins went this route and I must say: I have respect for those who do it.... but Aviation in North America is not top notch for guys starting out..... and the salaries at the top end don't match up with Europe... A good house with 1000 square meter garden is around 220 000 Euros, car prices are the same (average) and the food is better too! Austria doesn't allow any gene manipulated food or feed for animals, we have the strictest (worldwide) quality control on food (domestic) and import..... and the majority of what you buy is "biologicaly controlled"..... jogurt is jogurt... not gelatin with some American syrup made from Glucose (from genetically manipulted corn) and colorign for color.... it is the real deal..... mind you the steroid free Charlois beef from Alberta is the best I have ever had!! Ja, after a good bitch.... somethings swing the scale left and some things make it go right......
Happy landings

grippen

14th May 2006, 14:16

Why is it then Hans, that United Nations rank Canada the 3rd best country in the world to live in and your beloved Ostereich is number 15? How did your relatives end up in Vancouver if things are so much better over there in Austria? Glad to hear that you're happy with your lifestyle but there is more to life than gelatin free yogurt my friend. And for people who start on a 777, 340, 320, 737, Dash8 400, F70/100, CRJ, etc etc etc... with 200 hrs they will miss a huge deal of experience and will never learn what Aviation and Flying is all about. Turning the autopilot on at 50 feet and working the MCDU can only be so much fun and if that's all they're gonna do for the rest of their careers I can only feel sorry for them!:ok:

Alphopper

14th May 2006, 19:25

Hej Nils-Emil!Seems we struck a nerve eh? If flying around in some northern dump on bush aircraft is where it is at... then why do I sense that 99% of the boys and girls on this webpage all want to fly something like: 777, 340, 320, 737, Dash8 400, F70/100, CRJ, etc etc etc? And since you like to assume names from a basis of region.... I take it that you are Swedish... so for your pleasure: Translation for Nils-Emil! AKA grippen...
"Hej Nils-Emil! Verkar som du blev lite upprord, eller? Ar det hogsta i livet att flyga omkring i ett litet bushflygplan nagonstans i vischan...varfor har jag kanslan att 99% av alla killar och tjejer pa den har sjaten vill flyga nagot i stil med 777, 340, 320, 737, Dash8 400, F70/100, CRJ, etc etc etc? Och eftersom du gillar att harleda namn av regioner sa tror jag att du maste vara svensk...har ar en oversattning for Nils-Emil!"
Or are you one of those Prolate Canadians that only speaks English? When you do make it to the big game let us know onboard (ofcourse)...and BTW... the family that went to Canada... did so because Canada needed a specialized heart surgeon and the best of them come from Austria........

Alpine Flyer

14th May 2006, 22:06

plus it is the law here in Austria that we get a 13 (June), and 14 (November) salary where the income is only taxed at 6%....

Dash 8 and CRJ pilots at Austrian Arrows are probably better paid than their US counterparts. Have a look at http://www.tyrolean-brb.org for contract info and a salary table.

13th and 14th salary are not a law but in the contract, though. (Although 99% of employees get it through various umbrella CLAs.)

All my visits to Toronto have been very brief and I doubt that cost of living is hugely different from Austria. Buying food seemed about equally expensive while housing and cars are probably cheaper. Consumer goods (all electronics) were at least 10% cheaper over here when I last visited.

As for quality of living, that's depends a lot on what you like. For many Europeans Toronto isn't so much a "city" at all, as it is a lot of houses and people. "Downtown" Toronto seems a bit lame when compared to European cities, but that comparison is probably as unfair as asking an Austrian for the nearest floatplane flying school.

Alpine Flyer

14th May 2006, 22:11

Flying backcountry and GA sure gives a lot of experience. Unfortunately most 200hr-pilots given the choice of flying a 172 by the hour or getting into a Dash 8 or CRJ with 14 fixed salaries per year would take the latter even if it requires three years bonding.

European Airlines have been putting 200hr (or less) pilots on "medium to big" iron for decades and the system seems to work. Most captains over here had about 10 hrs twin-engine time (on a Seneca) when they joined.

What you lose in hands-on experience you also lose in chances to form bad habits. (I had about 600hrs without any meaningful twin time before I first sat in the right seat of a 50-seat Dash).

J.O.

15th May 2006, 00:09

Alpine Flyer

15th May 2006, 06:50

J.O., do you happen to know if the Flash Air and Gulf Air F/Os were indeed cadets. What happened there could have been a problem of no seniority or excessive deference to the captain in a non-western cultural setting as well.

Many European Airlines rely on cadets to fill their ranks and while your argument about experience seems valid the safety record seems to fail to back it up.

With the projected pilot demand, the estimated training capabilities and the relation of the number of "experience-getting" jobs vs. airline seats to be filled we will have a lot more cadet type pilots over the next decades. There is not nearly enough outback flying, pipeline patrol, glider towing, etc. being done to give even 1000hrs experience to every pilot required. (ICAOs proposed solution to get rid of single-pilot training alltogether with the MPL license can't be the right solution for this problem, though.)

(Maybe one big flaw in the "getting experience through working one's way up the ranks" theory is that flying with modern airline-type equipment gives you far better chances of learning from a mistake while living through it thanks to various protective systems.)

From an individual pilot's career perspective a pilot with 3000 hours, 2800 of which are in a Dash 8, CRJ, Fokker 70/100, A320, etc. will simply have better chances to land an airline job than someone with the same number of hours in (prop) Cessnas, etc.

cplpilot

15th May 2006, 11:59

Cadet programs place First Officers with no real world experience in real world situations they occasionally can't handle. It's all well and good when a good Captain is in charge, but what happens when the Captain gets in over their head? Cadet First Officers who lack experience sometimes lack the assertiveness that's needed when the crap hits the fan. Gulf Air's A320 crash, and Flash Airlines at Sharm al Sheik are prime examples of an accident where an inexperienced F/O was incapable of assertively assisting a Captain in trouble. This may also be a finding in the Helios accident.

If cadets do make it to Captain, they usually have little if any experience in handling events which aren't addressed in the book, like the accident scenarios I've mentioned above. I've flown with low time cadets and with high time bush drivers, and I'll take the experienced bush drivers every time. Any "bad habits" as you call them are all down to training and SOP and they are easily addressed in a good training program. Experience only comes from many hours in the real world, including scaring the "you know what" out of yourself once or twice.
I know for fact that Europe has the same safety records than north america... no point to discuss about cadet programs or not then....
In Europe i got instructed by a former military-airline pilot in retirement with tens of thousands of hours, here the instructor have often less hours than me and they are soooooooo inexperienced. In fact, they teach to gain experience, not to pass it to the student!!! that for me is not good at all (specially if you pay 40$/hour) and maybe is one of the reason why companies ask for 3000 hours to fly a beaver, nobody will teach you... you learn by yourself... sound dangerous to me ...sorry.
Canada is a beautiful country with a lot of opportunities in many field.
UN ranking was, Canada at the 3rd place but i think the first 2 were european country (Zurig is the best city in the word) but i guess UN does not consider aviation and pilot salaries.... sorry but bad argument there.... go aroud a try againg...:= :ok:

brucelee

15th May 2006, 19:31

This is an argument that goes back many years. Wether you train pilots in a cadet program or hire "experienced" pilots hasn't had any huge impact in terms of safety. Both records are good. The old concern was that the so called cadet program would put young, inexperienced pilots at the controls. In reality the experience gained from sitting next to a real experienced airline pilot in real airline flying is most valuable. The record speaks for itself. On the other hand, the so called experienced bush pilots that canada is so famous for developing have scared the **** out of me a few times and when I question them, I get the old "never mind kid" response. Still though, no cause for concern I guess and the record speaks for itself. Years ago I converted my private licence to a European one. The one thing that stood out in the mind of the European examiner was that in N.America we have good hands and feet but lack in knowledge. I tend to agree.

4JAHED

15th May 2006, 19:59

Hello all,

Interesting discussion. My two cents:

I love Canada, great place to live and IMHO the best place to live. I've spent much time in Asia, ME, Western Europe living temporarily (six months and less per stay) and I am born and raised Canadian. I have little & big Bus, skinny & fat Boeing, long and short haul experience and I worked the bottom right through the system in Canadian aviation to where I am now. I have flown with many and varied FOs from all ages and many countries.

What a blast! My back does a twitch when I reminisce about the first three thousand hours or so of starting at the bottom in Northern Canada. It was a lot of awkward lifting - chartacter building, they say... The places, people and things you see! The stuff you haul! People have called me a liar to my face when I talk about some of those things - it really is unbelievable stuff to all except who have done it. Priceless.

Would I have preferred to go through the European Cadet System? Yep. Do I like the way Canadian aviation is by career progression? Nope. Do I envy the guys/gals who get a Captain slot at a major at age twenty five? Yep. Do I think that we could learn a lot from our European friends by way of training methods and standards? Yep, and we are slowly to much faster in the future as we evolve. Because of our "out of the bush" progression, do I think we have something many Europeans don't in the "bag of tricks"? Yep.

I have lived in YZF, YVR, YYZ, YYC and many smaller towns/cities across Canada as well as the previously mentioned world-wide regions. Specifically; DUB, DXP, JED, ALG, MLE, MXP, CDG, HLP, MAN, AUH... I digress.

With reference to YYZ's downtown core and comparison to a European city, you are right. You will find, as a European person, that you will come to any Canadian city or town and become bored out of your mind. If you are coming to Canada to enjoy our country because of our night life and downtown cores - don't bother, save your money and go somewhere else (Halifax/Montreal being the exception:} ). Our country is based on its country. If you want to come to Canada and slow right down, taste life and enjoy the scenery from skates, skiis, canoes, kayaks, ATVs, big SUVs, snowmobiles or a light Cessna - then you're coming to the right place.

What's my point? Your European cities are beautiful for a short and fun time and the history...wow! Your career progression has us in envy. Your countrysides are beautiful as well. I prefer Canada. It is big. It is beautiful. It is diverse. It is still maturing. It is full of polite people.

Hole is dug'n da helmet's on!

Alphopper

15th May 2006, 22:26

After reading your posting... I think you are very correct... and very humbble... thank you for making a good posting. I think I may have been a bit to "coarse" on my postings... you are an experienced person and I wish that there were many more guys like you around.. sounds like you have had a "life well lived-flown"!!

sec 3

15th May 2006, 22:42

Nice post 4jahed. I started my career in the Canadian Arctic, worked with a large charter operator out of YUL, visited many European cities along the way. Now I'm in the ME and experiencing different parts of the world and loving it. I agree with 4jahed's view of Canadian vs European aviation. Where I am now, I see 30yr old ex-euro and asian pilots in command of heavy jets and have nothing but good comments, but I'll never forget my roots and appreciate all the good experience I gained in Canada. Unfortunately for me, I had an ex-wife with a couple of kids and was forced to leave as I was living under the poverty line as a widebody captain :{

yyzdub

16th May 2006, 09:53

4jahed -

Could not have said it better myself!

yyzdub

Alpine Flyer

16th May 2006, 10:29

Just to make it clear, I was not trying to state that Canada is a bad place to live. It just depends on what you want and if you want what Canada is famous for YYZ is maybe not the best place to find it.

To most Europeans Canada is the best way of living in America without having to bother with the US ;)

4JAHED, wonderful post! I haven't seen a tenth of what you have (and I was not a cadet).

click

16th May 2006, 11:59

Meanwhile, back at porter airlines.....

alw

28th May 2006, 15:23

Ex Q400 F/o living in Canada, havent heard from Porter as yet. Q400 is an exellent machine for the job. Would they mind me commuting from YYC I wonder?

Just to add to your little discussion, I am a Brit living in Calgary I moved here last October and very happy to do so. My family and I are much happier here. Licence conversion was straight-forward with no pointless questions. Flight test just as taxing. Taxes about the same. My house is a Palace in comparison to what I'm use to. Sking at the weekends was great. Tv is prehaps not great but then that is the perfect excuse not to watch it. No flying job yet but I'm sure it will happen in time.