flight delayed 3 hrs while new FA flown in.

[Ultralights]

is this usual procedure, a flight attendant on the flight from Syd to Wagga was incapable of working the return flight after a pax dies, of a heart attack, so the flight is delayed 3 hrs to fly down a replacement FA... this seams a little unusual to me...

The terminally ill woman was flying home when she had a heart attack about 9am (AEST) today, an ambulance spokeswoman said.

At the request of the woman's husband, with whom she was travelling, she was not revived.

"I believe it wasn't unexpected," the spokeswoman said.

"When the ambos got there they obviously found that she'd died and took her to Wagga Hospital for formal identification."

The incident greatly distressed the flight attendant, a Qantas spokesman said.

"... She could not operate the return flight, and we had to send another flight attendant from Sydney," the spokesman said.

The return service was delayed for three hours while the new crew member was flown up, he said.

AAP




i guess if the flight was a Dash 8, then i can understand...

[ditzyboy]

Medical situations can be quite harrowing for cabin crew at the best of times. We have limited medical knowledge and resources. Obviously larger aircraft you are part of a team and have extra support by way of MedLink and defibrillators. Also on larger aircraft you are more likely to have a pax who is qualified (and willing!) to assist.

I have only ever had one situation I would class as serious (drug overdose) and the sense of helplessness (even though I was one of 5 FAs) was overwhelming. One does what one can but it never seems enough - given the limits of the environment we work in and our training.

A death on board would be even more traumatic for all concerned. Especially given this was seemingly a solo FA who probably had no back up in the cabin and no access to neither MedLink or a defibrillator.

I do not think this FA should be chastised in any way for his or her inability to operate the return sector. I do know of FAs who have done so after similiar events but we all deal with things differently. Remember FAs are supposed to be seen as in control of the cabin and such events make it hard for reasons stated above.

In answer to your question I would say the three hour delay to replace the crew member was MORE than normal given the circumstances. Even a larger aircraft may have had this prediciment if minimum crew could not have been maintained.

[sinala1]

I would imagine that sector is operated by an Eastern's Dash 8, so that would explain why mimimum crew could not be maintained.

I agree with Ditz, these incidents can greatly affect you, although you do the best you can at the time to deal with it. I have had some pretty intense ones (suspected heart attack, miscarriage, double pulmonary-embollism, 2 separate blocked catheter incidents) and then some less intense but confusing nonetheless (a lady with a 'goiter' that appeared on her arm immediately after take off :bored: ).

As a side note, and am open to correction here, but I thought under our duty of care we are required to attempt resuscitation - even if it is against the wishes of the family? Obviously we don't have the full details of this particular incident, but from reading the newspaper article

At the request of the woman's husband, with whom she was travelling, she was not revived.

it appears that resus was not attempted?

Any thoughts?

Best wishes to the flight attendant involved, I am sure she did everything she could in the situation she was presented... I hope she is able to return to work soon

[Capt Claret]

Ultralights,

Unusual that it's not a common occurrence to have some one die onboard a commercial flight. Not unknown, but nonetheless not common.

Depending on an operator's Ops Manual, the flight might be capped and operated with reduced cabin crew but still at the ratio of 1:36, or part thereof.

I have no difficulty empathising with the F/A who decided they were not fit to perform their duties. I've not had the experience but doubt I'd feel too good afterwards.

[Buster Hyman]

I don't think you'd want your only FA to operate in a distressed state, especially if you need them to be focussed in the event of another emergency. I think the right thing was done here.

Interesting point that the husband requested no revival. I imagine some nasty implications if other family members disagreed with his decision...

[Deaf]

The terminally ill woman was flying home...
Maybe it was a "do you want to die here or in Wagga?" situation

[disco_air]

As a side note, and am open to correction here, but I thought under our duty of care we are required to attempt resuscitation - even if it is against the wishes of the family?

As a provider of First Aid (a la cabin crew) you are only bound to administer it when under consent from the casualty. An unconscious casualty however is incapable of giving consent obviously so one can administer First Aid straight away. I believe the Next of Kin (in this case the husband) may hold the power of consent however, if they are present with the unconscious casualty.

I take out $1M insurance every year in case of being sued for administering first aid :ugh: Doesnt anyone else?

..Disco

[*Lancer*]

Ditzyboy, given that it wasn't a medical emergency, surely the distress in this case shouldn't have been so intense? :confused: Their call of course, and definately not a good idea to fly when you're shaken.

Husband is the next-of-kin, so its his call if the patient hasn't or is unable to communicate their wishes. Poor bastard. I imagine any arguing on an aircraft would become security issue more than a medical or legal one.

Noone is obligated to resuscitate anyone unless they're an on-duty medical professional.

[priapism]

As someone who works with these type of medical emergencies on an almost daily basis the circumstances where resuscitation efforts may be withheld are;

_ an adult ( 18 years or over , where a "refusal of treatment" certificate has been completed for a current condition which most likely has caused the cardiac arrest.

Or

-A child ( < 18years ) where a court order is provided to the attending ambulance crew indicating that Cardio Pulmonary resuscitation is not to be commenced.

I believe these rules came about by legal precedent when a family situation became ugly in the wash up when a person, who happened to be a the major benefactor of the deceased's will, in the absence of other family members ,asked for the deceased not to be resuscitated.

That said this would not reflect in any way on the unfortunate crew member .

I sympathise with he or she. Such incidences are never pretty , even if death is expected. I am not surprised that he or she was unable to work the remaining sectors.

[disco_air]

priapism

Cheers for clearing that up :ok:

..Disco

[B A Lert]

I would hope that Management at Eastern would have given, and will continue to give, this FA all the support they can muster and make every effort to get over what must been a very traumatic day. I am sure this is the case and cannot believe that anyone could be critical of, or even question, either the FA or EAL.

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Don't you believe it BAL. Bet they put pressure on her to crew the return flight. The FA manager is a cretin.:yuk:
The only staff treated worse than there ground handlers are FAs and pilots.:mad:

[compressor stall]

to see NFR on patients' notes is not uncommon - "not for resuscitation". It can be determined by the medical profession for any number of reasons.

[sinala1]

given that it wasn't a medical emergency
You are saying that this situation wasnt a medical emergency? :confused:

[bellsux]

Funny or in bad taste??? Witty journo puts up on the news.com.au site "Terminal" as the headline of the story...:confused:

[QNH1013.2]

Disco_air, just as a matter of interest, nobody in Australia has ever been sued for administering first aid. It is highly unlikely and you are essentially untouchable; but I agree with anyone who says you *could* be sued.

[disco_air]

Cheers for that. I agree the chance is highly unlikely, but still there... and at $15/year its not really a big issue. The certifying authority (St. John) suggests it and is valid as long as my qualifications are current.

Think of a scenario. Perform life saving first aid on a casualty which ends up meaning some sort of permanent ailment. Who can someone blame? May not stand up in court, but may!

This insurance only covers me as a private citizen as well. Im covered under my emergency service when im working for them.

..Disco

[Green on, Go!]

I'll admit to being somewhat surprised that it isn't company policy to stand down the FA whenever this sort of event occurs.
I understand that it would be logistically difficult to take a whole cabin crew off-line if something terrible happened on a particular sector, however, for the protection of the staff-member(s), airline and ultimately the fare-paying pax on the next and subsequent sectors, would it not be prudent to stand-downs the member(s) until some sort evaluation of their fitness to continue working is completed?
For example:
- A train driver acquaintance recently had his third 'run down' incident over a thirty year career (none were his fault). Being his third such incident, the rail organisation forced him to take 6 weeks paid stress leave with compulsory counselling.
- A controller has an incident. Regardless of fault, the controller is suspended pending investigation. The cynics may suggest otherwise, however in this litigious society it protects everybody concerned (ie controller, company and airspace users).

[ditzyboy]

Jetstar had (read 'pressured') a cabin crew to turn the aircraft around ex-OOL after two cabin crew performed CPR on the inbound for around 40 minutes to have the pax pronounced DOA. Disgusting :yuk:

Touloune -
Interesting comment about the EAL FA Manager. Having worked under her myself I always found her to be totally supportive and compassionate under such conditions. As 'ballsy' as she is in a business sense I can't imagine she would have acted any differently in this case.

*Lancer* -
You are fine to have someone die infront of you then carry on as normal? Caring when customers complain about seat allocation, meal preferences and that you didn't put enough ice in their drink?! Not easy after such an event I reckon. When push comes to shove many probably would cope. It is certainly not ideal or expected, however. YES! This event was a medical emergency, by the way!

[OperationsNormal]

Wasnt there a simlar incident in Canberra recently with an Eastern or Sunstate crew ?

[*Lancer*]

ditzyboy, you can't retort what I say and then agree with it: "many probably would cope". Yes, I think I would cope, but that's for the individual to determine. If you're not fit to fly, for any reason, then that's that! I'm not criticising the FA's decision, just suggesting that given first aid was not to be administered, there wasn't quite the life-and-death urgency in this particular case as the examples you had posted earlier.

I always thought a 'Medical emergency' implied that you require immediate emergency assistance?

[Pimp Daddy]

Wasnt there a simlar incident in Canberra recently with an Eastern or Sunstate crew ?

Yes the FA's were paxed home (on another flight) and the Techies ferried the aircraft back to Sydney.

[winchop]

As an Air Ambulance Aircrewman, it is my understanding from legal sources that you cannot be sued as a first aider. The only people who can be sued are 'professional' medics such as doctors, nurses, paramedics etc. The precedence has been established in court in previous cases over this too.
As far as 'do not resuscitate' goes, this poor person would most probably had some kind of serious ongoing illness or a terminal illness and this scenario would have been discussed between the patient, doctor and the family beforehand. It's not something that you and I make a decision about when we're fit and well. It is a common practice in hospitals and is sorted out beforehand not as an on the spot decision.
As far as the FA not being able to continue on the next sector, I agree totally, as this person is not a medic and will not deal with something like this on a day to day basis and can be quite shocking and to split hairs about how much of a 'medical emergency' it is isn't fair. I wouldn't want to fly with an FA who had been traumatised by such an event and have that person then have to deal with an inflight emergency on the next sector.
In my job I see this happen more times than I wish and it isn't pleasant and for someone who sees it for the first time it must be awful and for anyone to criticise the decision to not continue on has obviously never had it happen to them and I hope you never do.

[tea_coffee_me?]

Im stunned at the things that have been written here.... as an EAA f/a i have to say something!!

Why the hell wouldnt you be upset as the operating f/a on this flight??? being put in a position like she was and then being told not to administer first aid?? then having the woman die on board?? what kind of person would find that a normal situation??? i know i wouldnt feel up to operating the next sector!

the flight was on a dash 8, was a single f/a operation so the delay for another f/a was fair and reasonable as surprise surprise we dont have a WGA base!

i really dont understand some of the postings in this thread and wish that some people thought before they posted! think people think!

[ditzyboy]

CaptBob -
My encounters with said manager were FAR from intimate, let me assure you! :) :yuk: Although I here she is getting paid more in her role at EAA. These managers are like puppets on a string really. Pay them enough and they will turn. One only has to look at a certain 'manager' within Jetstar to figure that one out. Organiser at the union one minute... Enough said.

Re the drop-down oxy on the Dh8... We are STILL trying to find the rear ventral airstairs on the 717s. At least she's consistant!

Lancer -

"ditzyboy, you can't retort what I say and then agree with it" - Yeah? Well I did! :)

I do agree with you... I realise my post was a little vague. My point was it is quite normal for someone to be shaken by the death of a pax. I think I have made it clear as to why an FA cannot be expected to operate after such an incident. We agree to varying levels, I guess. Being a FA myself makes me a little more than sympathic/empathetic to the FA concerned (assuming you are not a FA?). This was a medical incident though (a traumatic one at that). I cannot understand why you would think it was anything but. I agree that people like yourself (aparently) may be able to do another few sectors afterwards. I just think that the flight delay for replacement crew os totally acceptable under the circumstances - I think this is where we disagree?

tea_coffee_me -
You said it! This situation was COMPLETELY normal, in regards to the delay. As mentioned I think being a FA gives us a little more insight as to how this individual must have felt.

[goddamit]

I have had a passenger with a similar do not resus order. Apart from the moral issues(imagine an unaccompanied minor sitting across from the person), there is also legal issues. F/A are trained to provide due care with respect to their training. If this request did not pass the company's legal department, serious repercussions could occur. As a result from my case I denied the pax unless willing to accept medical assistance if req'd. I feel for the f/a in ths case. It is however the responsibilty of the Captain to make the decision whether to carry or not & to consider the crew members as well as the legal standing of the company. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Animalclub]

My wife had a do not resus order when she was suffering from lung cancer... no one could resus her without having an assault charge levelled against them... and I supported her... it was a quality of life thing.

As a steward/traffic officer (as we were called in them days) had a baby die in flight - had to carry on as counselling facilities were a bit slim in the hills of PNG in the 60's.

[arcs'n'sparcs]

Didn't feel like continuing? Good for the F/A! Having never been in the situation he/she was in (and hopefully never will be) I really have no idea what it would be like to have a person die in front of me. Don't forget there are (probably) 35 other people in the cabin, in close proximity, with no-where to go, watching you and your reaction to this incident. To be then told not to resuscitate when a F/A's whole job is the safety and wellbeing of the passengers would have to be incredibly distressing. What do you do? Ignore her? Just continue serving the rest as though nothing happened? I certainly would prefer to wait an additional 3 hours for a replacement F/A than run the risk of shock setting in half way through the next sector. We are all only human, after all.