Gloster Javelin ...its short career

[Brewster Buffalo]

Any ex-Javelin crew/experts who can explain why it had such a short career.

Entering service in 1956 by 1960 there were 12 Squadrons (9 in the UK) but 5 years later there were only 3 left - all based abroad.

On paper it looks to have been a better aircraft for long range interception of wandering Bears, Bison etc.... than the Lightning.

There must be a reason..:confused:

[Archimedes]

Neither an expert nor a Javelin type, but I'll have a crack at opening the batting here: Duncan Sandys...

There is an interesting Air Historical Branch report, declassified some years ago and supposedly in line for publication by Frank Cass (now Routledge after a takeover), which addresses some of the key issues about the position of the RAF in the period 1956-63ish. The RAF's AD units were to be cut back even before Sandys' ahem...somewhat over-optimitic predictions about the obsolence of manned aircraft were made government policy via a White Paper. The rationale behind this was that a manned interceptor was of little use against an IRBM or an ICBM, and that the cash would be better spent having a smaller interceptor force and building Bomber Command to a strength of 23 Squadrons (20 of which were to be Vulcan and Victor units).

The original plan was that the Javelin was to be largely replaced by the Lightning, with a projected 13 Lightning squadrons to be formed. However, once the debate on the strength of the AD force got into its stride, the number of Javelin units was to decrease notably. Once Sandys slashed the size of the RAF, the disappearance of Javelin units increased in pace.

Also, don't forget that the service life of aircraft was relatively short at that time. The Lighting wasn't meant to stay in service until 1988 - this would have been the equivalent of the Sopwith Camel equipping Fighter Command throughout the Second World War and into the 1950s, and would have been regarded with some incredulity.

Put these factors together with what appear to have been the Javelin's somewhat challenging flying characteristics (no aerobatics allowed, IIRC), and I'd say that the relatively swift departure of the type isn't that surprising as a result.

[Jackonicko]

As my learned friend infers, the Javelin's career wasn't short by the standards of the day - look at the Venom, Vampire and Meteor Night Fighters, the Swift, Valiant and Valetta, the Sycamore and the Belvedere, etc. Aircraft like the Canberra and the Hunter were the exception, not the rule.

Moreover, the Lightning/Firestreak/Red Top combination was always intended to replace the Javelin, with a 20 squadron force considered briefly, IIRC.

It was also a nightmare to maintain, with very poor availability, and it wasn't fast enough or fast climbing enough to get to where it needed to be.

[Samuel]

I think I'm correct in saying the Javelin was the only non-aerobatic fighter ever to enter service, and it was slower in re-heat than without it! I heard a comment reputedly attributed to an American exchange pilot that "only the Brits could design an aircraft on which drag equated to the amount of thrust available".

I served at Tengah when both 60 and 64 had Javelins, and they were a class act in loss and accident statistics. Some years later, in 1975 while in ANZUK, I noticed a large pile of Javelin airframes stacked on a corner of Seletar airfield. Just in case you were wondering what happened to the 60 and 64 aircraft. They might still be there!

[Pontius Navigator]

As I remember we got as far as the FAW9 version. The F4 instructors at Coningsby said there was nothing wrong with the concept and the supersonic, thin wing version would have been a much better performer.

Would it have been able to match its contemporaries like the F4 however? Its high tail on a delta was, I believe, it main problem.

[ORAC]

This was in the era of tripwire, the sole responsibility of the fighter force was to protect the V bomber bases till the force was flushed and airborne, at which stage their job was done. In order to do so the enemy bombers had to be detected at maximum radar range and the fighters scrambled to interecept them before they reached stand-off missile launch range, which meant a speed of about M2.0 and a phenomenal climb rate. Hence the design of the Saunders-Roe S.R.53 and the Lightning. Duncan's review killed the new fighters and the Lightning entered service as a stop gap measure. There was no role for the Javelin in such a scenario.

[Samuel]

Didn't someone on the Vulcan thread post that he had once got on the tail of a Javelin?

[henry crun]

Samuel: Not strictly correct to say it was non-aerobatic, but aeros in the looping plane were forbidden.

The reheat was for high altitude use only because at low level, where fuel demand was greatest, the reheat robbed the main engine of fuel which resulted in a small overall loss of thrust.

[antipodean alligator]

My old man used to relate a story that he vividly recalls seeing one falling out of the sky in flames at Horsham St Faiths.....Did they have a number of engine fires?

[John Farley]

Samuel

I would submit that every jet aeroplane that has ever flown has a drag equal to its thrust

The issue is at what speed this occurs.

[SirToppamHat]

You've probably already found this:

Javelin Spotters' Site (http://www.btinternet.com/~javelin/index.htm)

The Javelin always struck me as having come out of someone's imagination of what a supersonic Interceptor should look like, with everything fitted-in to the space available after the shape had been created. I always thought it looked very odd with its extended nosewheel leg - as if same was necessary following a dreadful error with the AoA required of the wingfor take-off that wasn't discovered until too late! But I have never even seen one fly, so what do I know. One thing does occur to me though; if (a BIG if, I acknowledge) Typhoon were marinised to fly off a boat, would it need a similar huge nosewheel leg????

Regards

STH

[Pontius Navigator]

A Vulcan got on the tail of a Javelin?

You mean which Vulcan did NOT get on the tail of a Javelin. We could out turn and out climb at any time.

As for falling out of the sky in flames, I believe this was a 'centre-line' closure problem. I could be wrong but I believe that the combustion chamber was in two halves and at high temperatures it form a figure of 8 rather than an O. The turbine blades with then hit the walls and induce an engine failure and fire. I think the Victor and possibly the Canberra all suffered from this.

Bit like the Valiant main spar 'fatigue', or the Comet cabin fatigue, Metallurgy was in its infancy. Digressing, the Valiant spars were found to become fatigued after being made and before they were fitted to the aircraft.

[Jackonicko]

I was always told that the Javelin had an unusual fatigue programme, in which the forward attachment points for the underfuselage tanks would fail, leaving them to drop onto the ground, still attached at the rear. If this happened while taxying, they would split and catch fire.....

[LFFC]

I used to fly with a nav who'd ejected twice from Javelins. I think I recall him telling me that its high tail and delta wing gave it a superstall problem - hence the restriction on looping manouevres.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Sir TH - thanks for the web site - new to me

The V-bomber force was vulnerable to a first strike particularly from ICBMs - 3 minute warning and all that - to which any fighter aircraft was no defence. There was the intention to disperse the force, on the assumption that there would be some prior of hostilities, and there was a belt of Bloodhound missiles as a last gasp defence

The Javelin couldn't out manoeuvre the Lightning (nor the Vulcan apparently :D) nor climb as fast but compared to the Lightning it would seem to have made a better long range interceptor (rather than a true fighter) with its greater armament - 4 missiles and guns, 2 crew, longer unrefuelled range, better radar (I'm guessing as the Lightning's must have been constrained by the air intake around it)

Perhaps it just needed further developments - though to get to a Mk 9 after a few years is going some,

[GeeRam]

Sir TH - thanks for the web site - new to me

The V-bomber force was vulnerable to a first strike particularly from ICBMs - 3 minute warning and all that - to which any fighter aircraft was no defence. There was the intention to disperse the force, on the assumption that there would be some prior of hostilities, and there was a belt of Bloodhound missiles as a last gasp defence

The Javelin couldn't out manoeuvre the Lightning (nor the Vulcan apparently :D) nor climb as fast but compared to the Lightning it would seem to have made a better long range interceptor (rather than a true fighter) with its greater armament - 4 missiles and guns, 2 crew, longer unrefuelled range, better radar (I'm guessing as the Lightning's must have been constrained by the air intake around it)

Perhaps it just needed further developments - though to get to a Mk 9 after a few years is going some,

But the 4 x AAM capability wasn't until the Mk.7 version appeared......:rolleyes:

[ORAC]

Remember that even IRCMs were not in production when the SR53/Lightning were in development, the only threat to the UK was the manned bomber, the Thor was not commissioned till 1959 and the Soviet equivalents could not reach the UK. When the Soviet IRBM/ICBM could reach the UK the role of the AD force during Tripwire became even more redundant, being limited to the peacetime air policing role and the engagement of the follow on manned bomber raid in war - which they had insufficient endurance to meet.

Which lead to the farce of the Lightning force doing survival scrambles followed by a recovery and turnround to meet the attack. Anyone else remember the Binbrook "trombone" across the Blueway? What fun we had trying to slot the F3s in before the F6s, let alone those that missed their stream numbers....

[Pontius Navigator]

<<There was the intention to disperse the force, on the assumption that there would be some prior of hostilities, and there was a belt of Bloodhound missiles as a last gasp defence>>

Mixed metaphor here.

The Bloodhound 'ring of steel' was around the main bases only and intended to protect the force before dispersal. If there was time then the force would disperse in 2s and 4s with only the original QRA (2 or 3 ac) increased to 4 ac and on the main bases. Cranwell of course was within the ring of steel.

Had the force not dispered it is questionable how many would have got airborne - imagine 24 ac even at 15 sec interval.

The Bloodhound 1 force was quite large with sites at places like Marham, Woolfox Lodge, Haxey, Woodhall Spa etc. I don't know all of them by any means. They were also intended to protect the Thor bases at Coleby Grange, Shepherds Grove etc. That requirement ceased about 1962 and the Mk 2 Bloodhounds were deployed in their stead.

The Mk 1 Boodhound was a short range, high level missile although one engaged a 500 foot target at about 8 miles. A Bloodhound 2 engaged a target at a considerably lower altitude. I remember the height but not the range - near 5 miles I seem to recall.

[AdLib]

Jackonicko.
Come on. It's time to fess up. You've just blown your journo cover, so what do you really do?
"As my learned friend infers, the Javelin's career wasn't short by the standards of the day ..."
He implies.
You infer.
Sorry.
I'll get me coat.

[SirToppamHat]

If I might jump to Jackonicko's defence ... he has never claimed to be anything other than a journalist on these forums. Whether you agree with him is another matter.

At least you know what you're getting with Jacko - not like some of the currant bun types who occasionally appear on here (normally just following some alleged mil cock-up), freshly registered and in search of a cheap headline.

In the main, I would say Jacko brings as much to these forums as anyone else, and more than most.

STH

[Dr Jekyll]

While we are on the subject, what made the RAF decide to buy the Javelin instead of the DH Vixen?

[Samuel]

Thank you John, but it was a quote, perhaps apocryphal, and besides you're smarter and infinitely more knowlegeable than Me!:D

Again, from memory, I recall an article some years ago written by Bill Gunston in which he compared every British post-war jet issued to the RAF with an American equivalent of the time,and in most cases the Yanks came out on top with a superior product.

In defence of Jacko, he has never denied being a journo.

[Foxed Moth]

Um, is it not about time that someone had a good word to say about the Javelin?
They were much used for trials and experimental work and .. er, the Mk8 had a pretty good radar at the time and I believe it could be flown in some quite dreadful weather.

Plus I think some overseas interest was shown, the Belgian air force sniffed around to the extent of conducting an evaluation and ... and there was a pretty red and white Javelin operating from Boscombe Down until the mid-70s.

Besides, it was British! so come on somebody who knows it better than I do, give her at least a few positive words!

As for why the dH design was shunned in favour of Gloster's, a good question! Both were essentially designed to satisfy the same specification but my hasty research suggests that although orders were placed in '49 for both RAF and RN Vixens both orders were then cancelled, apart from two prototypes. Then some five years later the RN got enthusiastic again and changes were made to make the design sea-worthy with the title Sea Vixen appearing in 1955.

And one day at Farnborough "Simon's Circus" flew Sea Vixens in such a way as to remain in my memory almost 40 years later... but for all that I don't know that any other air force looked at the Sea Vixen as a purchase.

Which is perhaps odd because with all due respect to the Javelin, the dH design was much more dashing to the eye and faster too ...

That said, what "they" SHOULD have done back then was to develop the Folland Gnat ...I have vague memories of picking up a (Farnborough) brochure regarding a supersonic Gnat ... and I do know that it was good enough to sell more overseas than the Javelin and the Sea Vixen combined!

And finally, because where I am writing from it is deep into the night and way past my bed time ... I would suggest, with as much energy as I can summon ... that Folland's or Mr Petter's Gnat was the forerunner of the F-16 and IF it had been developed could well have been the F-16 many years before the US put it all together.

Right, don't know what has got into me .. two posts in just a few days after a year of silence ... most odd.

[ORAC]

The DH110 was the competitor against the Javelin for the RAF night fighter contract. On 6 September 1952 one of the 2 prototypes, WG236, broke up in midair killing the crew and 27 of the spectators. The next month the RAF, possibly influenced by the disaster, selected the Javelin. The RN persevered, since thw Javelin wasn´t carrier capable, and it evolved into the Sea Vixen.

[Ray Darbouy]

Samuel: Not strictly correct to say it was non-aerobatic, but aeros in the looping plane were forbidden.
The reheat was for high altitude use only because at low level, where fuel demand was greatest, the reheat robbed the main engine of fuel which resulted in a small overall loss of thrust.
I am sure that may have been the case for the average Sqn Chap in what may have passed for its Release to Service. But, Darbouy vividly remembers, as a scaly quarters brat, at Leuchars in the late 50's, watching a Javelin performing a sequence of loops in the overhead :eek:
Also, after a rummage through Darbouys dear departed dad's memorabilia, the frontispiece from the 1957 Leuchars yearbook:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_Loop.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/Loop.jpg)

There must have been two of them doing it in the same piece of sky, together, to make the pic.:eek:
Then again, given the old girls dragmasterly qualities, they may only be throttled back at the top-of-drop :D

[Pontius Navigator]

And another reason why the RAF did not buy the Sea Vixen? Because it was a naval aircraft. Just like the Buccanneer, Scimitar, Lynx, Attacker, Sea Hawk etc etc.

Their airships would not buy anything their lordships bought.

[Ray Darbouy]

One remembers chaps coming back from Tengah. The word being that the actual straw that broke the camels back was severe cracking in the tail fins. Being obsolescent, the old girls were effectively cat 5'd as they taxied in :(

[Brewster Buffalo]

And another reason why the RAF did not buy the Sea Vixen? Because it was a naval aircraft. Just like the Buccanneer, Scimitar, Lynx, Attacker, Sea Hawk etc etc.

Their airships would not buy anything their lordships bought.

But both ended up buying American !! :O - despite all the planes the UK air industry designed/produced for them in the fifties..

[Samuel]

I also heard, from someone who flew both the standard issue US F4 and the British Spey version, that the re-engineering was more political than practical!

"But both ended up buying American !! - despite all the planes the UK air industry designed/produced for them in the fifties". Perhaps Bill Gunston was right?

[Ray Darbouy]

I served at Tengah when both 60 and 64 had Javelins, and they were a class act in loss and accident statistics. Some years later, in 1975 while in ANZUK, I noticed a large pile of Javelin airframes stacked on a corner of Seletar airfield. Just in case you were wondering what happened to the 60 and 64 aircraft. They might still be there!
I kept my badge! (Tengah '75):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_ANZUCK.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/ANZUCK.jpg)
Oi, that's ANZUK, not ANZAC for some of them impudent young pups out there :p
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/malaya-korea/anzuk.htm

[Ray Darbouy]

Any ex-Javelin crew/experts who can explain why it had such a short career.
Entering service in 1956 by 1960 there were 12 Squadrons (9 in the UK) but 5 years later there were only 3 left - all based abroad.
On paper it looks to have been a better aircraft for long range interception of wandering Bears, Bison etc.... than the Lightning.
There must be a reason..:confused:
Just going back to the original post, we must remember that the OR was laid out in 1947 when the known opposition was the Beagle and the Tu-4 Bull (B29ski). It's easy to look back and criticise using 20:20 hindsight. However, with 525kts and 40,000ft, 4@30mm Aden cannon with lots of rounds plus 4 stonking great IR AAM's it would have ripped them to shreds. It has been said before that the old girl was like the Rock of Gibraltar as a weapons platform. :cool:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_XA632.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/XA632.jpg)
Given that the Soviets were in a state of total Stalinist, paranoid security where a loose word got you shot, and that was only between Russian design offices, we were not too clued up on the Bison, Badger, and Bear which only came out and into our ken by the mid 50's. By this time, cutting edge wise, our chaps were probably polishing a turd, sorry. :sad:
Anyway, the guys did their stuff, 50 years ago, as duty calls, so, time for some pics. Back to the time where aircrew wore collar and tie with the mask and bone dome, intakes were proper round things with no funny stuff, there were sgt pilots on front line jets and the chaps wore their bonnets for head protection and saluting the sirs as they taxied out :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_Oxy.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/Oxy.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_Night2.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/Night2.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_Night1.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/Night1.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_Crewin2.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/Crewin2.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_Crewin1.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/Crewin1.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/th_Chaps.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/Darbouy/Chaps.jpg)

[Samuel]

That link doesn't work, and wasn't that insignia issed to ......err....the Army? I certainly never wore it!

Also, this link, I'm sorry to point out, is seriously misinformed, especially on the air component at Tengah!

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/malaya-korea/anzuk.htm

[Ray Darbouy]

That link doesn't work, and wasn't that insignia issed to ......err....the Army? I certainly never wore it!
Link should work. It works here; it was just a google anway:
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/malaya-korea/anzuk.htm
Certainly was issued to the RAF! Wasn't worn on ones KD. Didn't you get yours old boy, or were you seconded to the SAF? Army were at Nee Soon Barracks.

[tornadoken]

1. Lots of schemes/prototypes, 1949, no production funds as MBF took it all.
2. Korea seen as Spain-style tryout for Red surge on Antwerp, c.1955. Re-arm W.Germany, lots of MSP-$ for anything likely to fly for 1955. $ paid for Sea Hawks, Sea Venoms, Gannets, Swifts, Hunters, Javelins, which is why we took so many, in interim mod. states intended for just a couple of years' utilisation, no Major Service. Javelin chosen over DH.110 as RAF F(AW) because Sapphire/ reheat seen in 1952 as less risky than Avon/reheat and because Gloster/HSAL were less loaded than the DH Enterprise.
3. 1955/56 were indeed dodgy. Threat thereafter seen to change: no flock of Bulls or Badgers, but stand-off warheads on ASMs. Get up high - so rocket- boost notions, which became Lightning plus long range all-aspect AAM. HSAL bid thin-wing Javelin, but Gloster had lost Systems credibility.

[Brewster Buffalo]

..is that by 1960 the main threat was seen to be a missile strike for which the Javelin wasn't much use.

The Lightning could be both a fighter and an interceptor and whilst Javelin was just a (better) interceptor, so get rid of the Javelin and save some money..

Doesn't explain what all those Bloodhound missiles were for though?
Reassure Joe Public???

[Flatiron]

I was talking last night with an old mate who was once the youngest Javelin pilot before Dick Johns assumed the mantle. He made the point that the Javelin was designed as a high level bomber interceptor yet while it could reach Mach 0.96 at FL550, it could also intercept a MiG-21 at 200ft and fly at 400kts on one engine. Not bad for a 1944 design!

[Blacksheep]

Doesn't explain what all those Bloodhound missiles were for though?
One plan was to put nuclear warheads on them and explode them next to the 'incoming' before they reached their targets. Would have been the ultimate fireworks display if it ever happened... :rolleyes:and fly at 400kts on one engine. Not bad for a 1944 design!A bit like a Spitfire eh?

[Pontius Navigator]

Just to put in a plug for the Javelin and Valiant. They were a superb flight-refuelling duo.

One Valiant could trail one Javelin from UK to Singapore stopping over at El Adem, Aden and Gan. Made life simple, no Tanker-tanker brackets, no priming the route with tankers and launching tankers to recover the inbound tanker etc.

At Gan in Sep 64 3 Valiants and 3 Javelins streamed through one day. Can't remember exactly but they may even have double staged. Imagine how many prods to get a Lightning out there. I know they did it to get 74 there and back.

[Brewster Buffalo]

One plan was to put nuclear warheads on them and explode them next to the 'incoming' before they reached their targets. Would have been the ultimate fireworks display if it ever happened... :rolleyes:

The proposed Bloodhound 3 was to be fitted with a nuclear warhead but the project was cancelled in 1960..don't know why though..

[GeeRam]

Imagine how many prods to get a Lightning out there. I know they did it to get 74 there and back.

7 prods between Tengah and Akrotiri as 74 didn't come all the way back as they delivered their F6's to 56 Sqn.

[John Eacott]

And one day at Farnborough "Simon's Circus" flew Sea Vixens in such a way as to remain in my memory almost 40 years later... but for all that I don't know that any other air force looked at the Sea Vixen as a purchase.

Foxed Moth,

Just for you, out of the archives: Farnborough 1968 programme :D


http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/Simon's%20Sircus%20small.jpg

[NutherA2]

[As for falling out of the sky in flames, I believe this was a 'centre-line' closure problem. I could be wrong but I believe that the combustion chamber was in two halves and at high temperatures it form a figure of 8 rather than an O. The turbine blades with then hit the walls and induce an engine failure and fire.]

Pontius.

The Sapphires installed in the Javelin developed a number of interesting technical failures throughout the aircraft’s career.

Turbine failures were an early example, the “solution” was to install a form of armour plating around the rear end of the engine, so as to catch the exploding bits of blades before they destroyed the airframe.

Engine fire warning light illumination was a fairly regular occurrence; this could signify either a fire or a hot gas leak. Most of the time, though, it signified a faulty detector unit; if the red light(s) were a nuisance, particularly at night, one “cure” was to take the bulb(s) out during the RTB.

Centre-line closure was the most significant engine problem we encountered and was, I think, recognised only after the Dragmaster started flying further afield, since some tropical weather conditions provoked the failure. The problem affected the compressor, not the burner or turbine assembly; it happened when the engine was operating at high power and was subjected to rapid cooling (climbing up the middle of a tropical Cb was a good way to achieve this). Uneven contraction rates within the compressor then led to the rotating bits meeting up with the static bits, with dramatic results. I had a close up view of this when in close formation with a Mark 9 which did just this. The pilot did not survive, but the navigator’s subsequent account confirmed that the disintegrating compressor had immediately severed the hydraulics so that the flight controls were inoperative (from the spectators' viewpoint, the aircraft pitched nose down so sharply that neither I nor the number 3 could follow it through the cloud); the electrics were destroyed to the extent that not even the generator warning lights worked. Without intercom, the first indication he had that the situation was irretrievable was when the pilot’s ejection seat fired.

Once centre-line closure had been recognised, the initial reaction was to ban Javelins from flying in cloud. A couple of T3s of the Instrument Rating Squadron needed to return to Middleton St George from Nicosia and were given dispensation from the ban for the return flight. On their climb out of Orange as a close pair they met up with an embedded Cb and lost 3 engines out of the 4; the “glider” pilot ejected successfully, the other managed to get back to Orange with very much reduced power available on the surviving engine. The technical solution to centre-line closure was the Rockide (sp?) mod. which amounted to coating bits of the compressor with heavy duty abrasive, so that the blades would file themselves down, rather than go to bits.

Later on, Victor crews became worried that their Sapphires, too, might suffer from the closure problem. I believe that manufacturers' experts reassured them that, because of the difference in intake design this could not happen. This expert opinion changed only after a Victor pilot flying from Tengah earned his AFC by coping with failure of 2 of his Sapphires; at one stage he had only 1 engine functioning.

I also heard that news of this Sapphire problem did not surprise the USAF, who had already encountered something similar years before on the B47.:confused:

[guest022]

Hi everybody. check article 6274232796 on ebay - my javelin stick for sale
regards