European pilot unity

[bigbeerbelly]

I was surprised to hear from press reports during the Lufthansa negotiations how many non-union pilot's their are in Germany. I am sure LH is not the only case in Europe like this. The US carriers comparatively seem to have very few pilots who are non-union members. On the rare occasion that a union member does fly with a scab, the scab is treated like sh**. (No one talks to him the entire flight escept for checklist items, etc.) Union dues are expensive, but it is worth it in the long run. My question for European pilot's is how do you treat your co-workers who are not union members? What percentage of your pay goes to union dues? What can be done to increase the negotiating power of the individual pilot groups in Europe as a whole?

[tilii]

bigbeerbelly

With respect to the situation in the UK, here are some answers to your SEVERAL questions:

1. “[H]ow do you treat your co-workers who are not union members?”

Why, we treat them just the same as union members. You see, we recognise the RIGHT of others to decide whether or not they wish to join a union. Since there is only one union in the UK, and that single union does little for most pilots except those within British Airways, this is a right we are likely to continue to uphold for the foreseeable future.

2. “What percentage of your pay goes to union dues?”

Last rumoured to be 1% of union members’, and 0% of non-members’, pay goes to the union. Given the situation as described at 1 above, this seems entirely appropriate. Nothing in, nothing out, so to speak.

3. “What can be done to increase the negotiating power of the individual pilot groups in Europe as a whole?”

You will have to forgive some of us, dear heart, in that we do not yet all think of Europe as “a whole”. Some think of it as a ‘hole’ we are sinking into from which we may find it rather difficult to escape, others as a ‘hole’ into which we all should immediately jump without regard to the future well being of our nation “as a whole”.

And finally, with regard to the title you gave this thread, viz. “European pilot unity”, there is now no such thing and there is, IMHO, no likelihood of there ever being such a thing. In fact, there is no such thing as ‘British pilot unity’ upon which we might build towards the wider European equivalent. Generally, I think it would be fair to say that the average British pilot is a tiny, self-contained, and self-interested, unit of one plus immediate dependent family. Said unit rarely has regard for the interests of anything beyond said unit. Sad but true, and terribly, terribly, British, old bean.

Just browse through other PPRuNe threads or, indeed, watch the responses to this post for proof as to the above assertion. :) :) :)

[Tritanic]

bigbeerbelly,

I'm astonished by your revelation of US carriers treating non-union members in such a derisory manner.

In the "original" land of democracy and freedom of speech, I would have thought it the god given right of every man, woman and child to have their own valid opinions and express themselves in any manner they see fit, and positively un-constitutional to force them to join what are essentially subversive, anti-constitutional organisations such as unions.

As a hard-working, free-thinking individual, I don't consider it unreasonable to be allowed to stand up and fight for my OWN rights, express my OWN opinions and speak my OWN mind.

To be compelled to join a group which speaks on my behalf, tells me what I am, and am not allowed to do and say, and forces me to accept standards below that which I would normally accept, is , I'm afraid to say.. Communism!

In the United Kingdom, less than 30% of all employees (not just aviation related) are part of a Union. The main reason why people join unions in the UK is to protect themselves from 3rd party insurance claims.. not to protect themselves against the company they work for. Back in the 60's & 70's during periods of far left-wing communistic government, there was considerably more union membership which WAS anti-establishment, but that was MOSTLY erradicated during the latter 20th century under conservativism.

It would seem that with the return of labour strength to our country, unions are becomming more powerful again, but it is to the detriment of democracy, and I hope we have a VERY long road to run before we get the segregation that you seem to have acheived in the USA.

I pity you.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Good man Tilii, can't makeout whether the term scab in the US means the same as it does in europe from beerbellies attitude. Over here a non-union member is simply a human being who has exercised his right to choose to join a group or not. He only becomes a "scab" when and if the union members enter into some industrial action such as a strike and he goes against the general flow and turns up for work in the usual manner.

[tilii]

And just to add a little to the good Wingco's post above, since union industrial activity of the kind referred to by the Wingco simply never happens in the contemporary UK industrial environment, then the likelihood of the proper application of the term 'scab' is precisely nil.

[standby1]

At the end of the day, who earns more money and enjoys far supperior terms & conditions??.....The union supporting American or the Anti union, right wing, Brit??...........


Non union members...... you are the weekest link.......goodbye.

[tilii]

standby1

If we are to judge by the thread entitled "Airlines Seek Stay On Pilot Fatigue Rule", it does seem possible that it is us Brits who enjoy the "supperior [sic]" conditions.

There is not much point in earning the most money if you're too knackered to spend it, is there dear heart?

As for the parting phrase you employed, do not overlook the fact that we gave it to you. Jolly good show, what? :) :)

[This message has been edited by tilii (edited 19 June 2001).]

[mad_jock]

Speaking as a wannabie

Is there not some serious safety issues with not talking with you partner?

It seems that the whole thing goes completly against everything i have been taught ie MCC etc.

I thought the whole point of CRM was to make the flight deck a place for the free flow of information not childish "i won't talk to you because your not in my gang stuff"

MJ
(who is proberly wrong again)

[tilii]

Well said mad_jock

With that attitude, you're the kind of wannabe who will always be welcome on our flight decks. :)

[mad_jock]

What you see/hear is what you get with me.

Thanks for for your reply it's nice to see that i am slowly heading in the right direction and some of this expensive training is paying off.

And if your fleet requires in the future a 30 year old ex mechanical engineer who love's to work. Email me and i will make sure that your first on my list that i send my CV too when i am all done. Failing that i am always game for a beer with a similar thinking person :)

MJ

[tilii]

mad_jock

There is no doubt that our outfit is one of the first to whom you will apply.

Part of our selection procedure involves asking sticky questions of the applicant. The kind of response you posted above will put you head and shoulders above most applicants.

I look forward to having that beer with you in due course. Keep up the good work. It's clear you are doing well.

[Haulin' Trash]

BigBeerbelly - attitudes like yours cause accidents. Union member / non union member /scab / whoever - as long as they are qualified pilots, should be working together to ensure a safe trip. CRM doesn't seem to be much on your agenda. Industrial militancy has no place in a cockpit - it should be kept for the picket lines. You and others like you are a danger to the travelling public and a slur on your profession

[Ignition Override]

Many present unionized pilots in the US forget that whether they started as pilots in a military plane or a regional Metroliner, Jetstream, Shorts etc, a great many flew for a while with no union on the property, and had no true comprehension of the issues.

I can't speak for others, but often it is hindsight which allows us the leisure to decide whether we should have organized (often at the risk of being fired/failed on checkrides...), or not. Many of us were hired by really small regionals (4-6 planes) which were not very solvent-we were the last to know, once airports began to seize starter units, hesitate refueling planes etc. When fairly new and still young in the business, we were often too conservative, naiive or both to have even considered "rocking the boat"- risking the rath of a chief pilot or the company "president".

[Underdog]

tilii,

Just a quick note. I too thought of Balpa as being the 'BA line pilots association'.

Now that I'm in BA I find that they do more for outsiders than they appear to do for us! It's a worry really! :rolleyes:

Anyway, the main reason for any union not doing anything for anybody is because they don't have the remit to act. You have to have a critical mass of members to get the union to act. The membership IS the union and unless enough people join, then of course nothing will happen and people will continue to get shafted by their employers. It's really quite simple.

Having said that - if a non-union bloke were sat next to me I would treat him/her exactly the same as anybody else. Courtesy and professionalism demand it!

Regards,

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Underdog

[You splitter]

After reading the initial couple of postings I had pretty much made up my mind on a certain issue. SUrely enough, reading on I find many of you have highlighted that very issue.

Not talking to your co-pilot because of his/her union status (or lack of)is not only very childish, its also bloody poor CRM.
IMHO, safety first. Pay, conditions,beneifts etc should take a very back seat in comparison.

[tilii]

Underdog, et al

You know, I really like the way this thread is panning out. Restores my faith in human nature and elevates this website to where it truly belongs. Well done, guys! ;) ;) ;)

[exeng]

Underdog,

Your statement <The membership IS the union and unless enough people join, then of course nothing will happen and people will continue to get shafted by their employers.>

Very true, and I wouldn't dream of acting any differently on the flight deck to a non union colleague; the peeps behind pay for a professional job done as well as it can be.

I do however attempt to discuss the matter over a few "channel 4's" in the hope that my colleague will understand that joining the union and then showing a face of unity might give him/her the chance of retiring on a pension that I will enjoy.

I have found that most agree and join (1% of not a lot is not a lot) but a small percentage obviously want to die poor!


Regards
Exeng

[bigbeerbelly]

I am glad that I started this thread. It really gives me the impression that most pilots in Europe are lackadaisical about what a strong pilot group can accomplish. I can infer from the numerous posts that the words "strength in unity" fall on deaf ears to the average European pilot. I would really like to hear some posts encourageing the pro-union attitude from a European pilot's standpoint. In regards to those of you who say that it is people like me who cause crashes and that not talking to the scab is dangerous, I ask how? If the sterile cockpit extends to cruise flight as well then is it not even safer than chatting about friends, family, policy, or reading a magazine. I do not mean that it is now a one pilot crew. The scab does his job and you do yours, you just do not talk about things in between. My company does not have non-union pilots. Most people have never been to a union meeting though. That is ok, they are silent members. They pay their dues an do their job. But pilot's who want to have a retirement plan, company paid vacation, the chance to bid for their monthly schedules instead of just an assigned line, get paid actual block instead of just scheduled block yet are unwilling to give up 3% of their pay are the scum of the earth and rightly called "scabs" They may think that the union does nothing for them at the moment, but the countless contract negotiations that preceeded them are what they should be willing to cough up 3% for.

[tilii]

Bigbeerbelly

You say “most pilots in Europe are lackadaisical about what a strong pilot group can accomplish”. To be fair to us, I think it is true to say that most European pilots have never actually witnessed a “strong pilot group” (perhaps the current Lufthansa action is a notable exception). The British Airline Pilots Association (and let us be clear on the fact that this is the ONLY British pilot union) does not have a history of either strong representation or a willingness to lead its membership into industrial action from the front. Thus it is extremely difficult for the UK pilot body to even imagine what a ‘strong pilot group’ might accomplish, though some of us do, I am sure.

Given the above, it seems unlikely that we will even begin to comprehend the words “strength in unity”, let alone hear encouragement for the pro-union attitude. After all, if we do not hear such encouragement from our sole pilot union, from whence is it likely to come?

Since your company does not have non-union pilots, I presume you have not had to exercise the option of refusing to communicate with same. Yet you ask us why we feel your so-called “sterile cockpit” is likely to cause crashes, why we hold that it is dangerous.

With respect, it is not, as you imply, about avoiding “chatting about friends, family, policy, or reading a magazine”. Rather, it is about hostility on an airliner flight deck. Hostility can, of course, be overt or covert, and avoiding communication beyond checklist duties undoubtedly falls into the covert hostility category. Further, though harsh words may sting, communication via body language and the unspoken word is often a great deal more damaging, as well you would know because to employ this technique is actually INTENDED to be harmful to your so-called “scab” colleague. The “scab” colleague, perhaps the Captain, may be so distracted by this conduct, so uncomfortable and frustrated, that he/she is many times more likely to make errors of judgement and action. Let us be realistic here: there is little to be gained from smiling smugly at your “scab” colleague’s induced discomfort while the flight becomes a CFIT statistic, now is there? This is why it is a wholly unsafe practice.

You are entitled to hold your views with respect to non-union pilots reaping the benefit of the long-term effort of unions and their members. And you may well be right. That does not entitle you to forego the fundamental responsibilities that are with you when you take an operating role on the airliner flight deck. You owe it to your passengers and crew, not to mention yourself, to conduct yourself at all times in a manner consistent with safe operation. If you feel so strongly about this issue that you feel compelled to refuse communication with your operating colleagues (“scabs” or not), then you should, perhaps MUST, stand down from the job, get off the flight deck.

For what it’s worth, bigbeerbelly, if a fellow pilot refused to communicate with me while in operation, I would hold it to be a gross violation of safety and I would not only refuse to fly with that individual, I would take the matter up forcefully with my company management and/or the regulatory authority.

Paying your 3% does not in any circumstances give you the right to jeopardise safety. Nothing gives you that right, absolutely nothing. It’s as simple as that.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Fatbelly

Good god man, I'm quite astounded by your attitude!! I quote:

"But pilot's who want to have a retirement plan, company paid vacation, the chance to bid for their monthly schedules instead of just an assigned line, get paid actual block instead of just scheduled block yet are unwilling to give up 3% of their pay are the scum of the earth and rightly called "scabs" "

How can you misapply such a venemous term as "Scab" to an individual who believes in the principle of personal choice???
If someone elects NOT to become a member of a union you can't outcast him as if he has comitted some dastardly deed. Have you ever thought of communicating with him and asking him why he chooses not to join? It may be that he has a perfectly good reason and any reasonable individual should seek to ask why.Then (and only then) should you be in a position to make a PERSONAL judgement and I stress "personal" because that will remain your very own opinion.

Do you guys over there have unions in the military? If not, which I'm guessing is the case do you refer to your entire Defence (sic) forces as "Scabs"? Jesus H man, if you are representative of your kind you have an awful lot to learn about CRM.

I honestly thought after your original posting that you were defining scabs as individuals who have broken some form of industrial action and not individuals who simply choose not to join your little club.

Would you be from the deep south perchance? A Klu Klux Clan member even?
God help you that's all I can say. But please don't come over this side of the great divide to work. We don't need guys like you.

[bigbeerbelly]

Tilli, many good points. Keep this thread going for me, I start a 4 day trip today and can't reply for a while.

Wing Commander, very deep south actually is correct...the heart of Bavaria. But no I hate racism and am actually in an interracial marriage myself.

Take care guys and keep up the good work!