Flaps as required.....

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

Downwind in a PA-28.

FRCs for downwind checks say "as required" for flaps. Do you select first stage downwind, and second stage on base leg; or do you leave flaps alone downwind and apply 2 stages of flap on base?

Apparently the view on this is different on different sides of the pond........

[Rosanna]

Do you select first stage downwind, and second stage on base leg; or do you leave flaps alone downwind and apply 2 stages of flap on base?

The standard in our FTO is first stage on downwind and second stage on base.

Ciao!!!

Rosanna

[hugh flung_dung]

Straight to 2 stages on base if it's a normal circuit; select 1 stage downwind if it's a bad weather circuit.

On a related topic ... I've often wondered why the UAS taught setting flap to inter when downwind in a Bulldog :confused:

HFD

[BEagle]

We use 2 stages on base leg and reduce to VAPP+10, then the final stage and reduce to VAPP immediately after rolling out of the final turn. Then point-and-power to the chosen aim point for the flare.

[DB6]

I'm guessing the downwind checks are something like BUMPFICH? Flaps shouldn't really be a downwind check in light aircraft, they are something to deploy as and when needed (hence 'as required' - read 'who cares'). Others will no doubt have different opinions but F to me means Fuel - quantity, balance, pump etc.
An exception however will be if your FTO is geared towards commercial training, then they will want to get you accustomed to deploying flaps at a particular stage in the approach, as happens with airliners etc.

[rudestuff]

Flaps as required means that its YOUR choice...
Teaching someone to fly by the numbers is okay for a student, but you really should be able to fly approaches with any combination of flaps, hence flaps as required...

[Rivet gun]

Straight to 2 stages on base if it's a normal circuit; select 1 stage downwind if it's a bad weather circuit.
On a related topic ... I've often wondered why the UAS taught setting flap to inter when downwind in a Bulldog :confused:
HFD

I suspect for the same reason they teach oval shape visual circuits. The UAS (and the professional flight schools more genrally) are not in the buisness of teaching people to fly light aircraft per se. The light aircraft is just a stage in progression to heavier / faster metal.

With a faster aircraft it is normal to take some flap and slow down on the downwind leg and to fly a continuous final turn else the circuit becomes excessivly wide. The UAS are just preparing people for the procedures appropriate to faster aircraft.

[fireflybob]

They are PRE-LANDING checks, NOT "Downwind" Checks!! Eg, you might do a straight in approach.

That said on a square circuit, it is more common to make the initial flap selection on base (this assumes a powered approach, of course!).

As an aside in the PA28-161, I often see pilots hareing round the circuit at 110 kts, whereas I teach 90 kts since a) you have 20 kts less speed to lose on the base leg and b) if you have a PA38 ahead he will be doing 90 kts!

Hope this helps!

[FlyingForFun]

Do you select first stage downwind, and second stage on base leg; or do you leave flaps alone downwind and apply 2 stages of flap on base?
Who cares?!?

For an early student, the most important thing is to have a consistent way of doing things. It really makes very little difference what that consistent way is. At our school we teach 2 stages of flap on base. The reasoning is that (on a C152 at least) reducing power, adding two stages of flap, and slowing to 70kt results in very little trim change overall, so easier to do it all in one go.

Having said that, if a student came to me from another school and had been doing things differently, I would let them get on with it, because trying to change things at this stage of their training is nearly always going to do more harm than good.

With just a little bit of experience, we learn to adapt to the situation, and use flaps as required. I remember when I got checked out on the PA18, with about 60 hours total time, I was baffled by the fact that there were only 2 stages of flaps, and I wasn't sure when to lower them since the PA28 I'd trained on had 3 stages. My instructor said to me "You've got a PPL, you can figure out when to lower flaps yourself by now." How true that turned out to be.

FFF
---------------

[Centaurus]

To tell a student to use flaps downwind in a Warrior - Cessna - or similar light trainer -simply because the big airliners do, is as stupid and illogical as one school I know that teaches two mile wide circuits so as it's airline cadets get used to the perspective of the runway as seen on downwind in a Boeing 747!

Worse still are those schools that teach students to check undercarriage down and locked as part of the before landing check - even though their aircraft all have fixed gear. Strange thing is that the manufacturer's POH for fixed gear types makes no mention of gear down and locked.

Flying light singles and twins used to be so straightforward and easy when I learned to fly many years ago and one wonders why it is all so complicated now. We flew without needing a checklist to tell us what to do next. Can you imagine a Battle of Britain Spitfire pilot in a scramble and carefully reading a long checklist before starting his engine. Not ever!

[FlyingForFun]

Centaurus,

I agree with your post. But I was taught to lower one stage of flaps downwind (in a PA28) by a school which has absolutely no suggestion of training people for airline jobs - in fact, the oposite was true at that school.

It was DB6 who originally raised the issue of airline ops; my school use the AFE checklists which (for Cessnas, at least) have a "BUMFFICHH" check downwind, with the second "F" being flaps. I would guess that this particular third-party checklist is more likely to be where the practice comes from than airliner ops. I teach my students to ignore the U and the second F.

FFF
--------------

[BigEndBob]

Centaurus...the problem is we are not teaching Battle of Britain pilots...they may eventually only fly once a month or less.. the checklist is there to remind them whats need checking.
My first instructor was ex BofB, he said they were taught BUMPFICH on the basic trainer, the same was used whether they later flew Spitfires or Lancasters..formation of good habits i suppose.

[scubawasp]

I too don't teach flaps on downwind. But I get my students on their prelanding checks to say out loud what type of approach they will make (i.e. flapless, normal etc).

[DFC]

Flap extension (or retraction) is not a function of position in the circuit it is a function of speed. Initial flap extension reduces stall speed permitting the aircraft to fly slower while retaining an appropriate margin above the stall.

If the speed used at the end of downwind is sufficiently above the clean stall in the turn onto base then there is no requirment for flap.

The problem is that many schools use approach speeds that would not make any difference if the aircraft was clean or had flap extended.

Thus if the aircraft is slowed to an appropriate speed downwind (or at a certain distance on a straight-in approach) then flap may need to be extended.

That means that the argument should be "do you slow up downwind to a speed that requires initial stage of flap?"

Those that slag off airline ops (or those that think they are following such SOPs) should know that SOPs in airlines require a flap extension and retraction schedule to be followed. That schedule is with respect to speed. The only issue with regard to height is that departing the aircraft must be at or above the minimum flap retraction height (obstacle clearance) and on arival must be in the landing configuration (flap setting appropriate to speed and engine availability) by 1000ft.

Regards,

DFC

[maxdrypower]

Flying ga from a busy fairport also presents a quandary . As an instructor you have to consider the students pocket as they are paying for the hour . If you deploy flap on the downwind leg then more often that not you will be reducing airspeed , eg Pa38 90kts to below 80 more usually 70 . Now from time to time you are asked to hold at the end of the downwind leg so shiny orange aeroplanes can land . This involves orbiting , you can also be asked on occasion to expedite your approach . The deployment of flaps on the dwonwind leg prior to atc making these decisions would appear to be uneccessary . If you are fying at 90 and asked to expedite then you can if you are flying at 70 when asked this would mean upping the flaps and increasing speed . i would also say that inexperienced pilots in a hold at 1000 feet at 70 knots is considerably more fraught with brown sticky and smelly stuff than orbiting at 90 , as we are constantly told you are more likely to spin in and become crispy critter on turns to finals when a/s and height are lower , this would seem to heighten the risk. We dont generally descend on the downwind leg , unless its a glide approach so why deploy flap there is plenty of time once you have turned base to set yourslf up for a greaser .
I think ???????? but Im just a cods head PPl, but thats my thoughts ,
Please dont all shout at once:O