Another pilot in alcohol realted incident

[Ronnie Honker]

A US Airways pilot was detained Friday afternoon at Los Angeles International Airport after someone told authorities he had alcohol on his breath.
The pilot was scheduled to fly to Philadelphia later in the afternoon. The flight was delayed for more than four hours while the airline found a replacement.

Police released the pilot without charges,
A breath test showed that the pilot's blood-alcohol level was at or below...
The pilot's blood-alcohol level was nothigh enough for police to charge him with public intoxication, so they released him to US Airways.
TOTALLY in line with my line of thinking! (http://70.86.224.210/~aqwquuwt/forum/viewtopic.php?t=321)
Wackers!

[ironbutt57]

'Released him to USAirways"...what the rustheads got their own prison?:confused: :}

[Airbubba]

Yep, those authorities are just being mean again...
_______________________________

Pilot at LAX Grounded by Alcohol

A US Airways flight is delayed for four hours after a passenger reports smelling liquor on the officer's breath.

Tests show he had alcohol in his blood.

By Jill Leovy and Jennifer Oldham
Times Staff Writers

April 8, 2006

A US Airways pilot was detained at Los Angeles International Airport on suspicion of being drunk before his flight Friday, and was later found to have alcohol in his blood.

The pilot, who was not identified, was scheduled to fly US Airways Flight 18 to Philadelphia, but the airline removed him from duty.

The search for a replacement pilot delayed the flight more than four hours after its scheduled 1:45 p.m. departure.

Airport security officials said a passenger smelled alcohol on the pilot's breath at the security checkpoint in Terminal One and reported it to screening officials, who summoned police.

The pilot was taken into custody for tests and failed a field sobriety test, security officials said.

At the LAX police station, a breath test was repeatedly administered to the pilot, airport officials said. They said that on the fourth test, the pilot's blood alcohol level registered 0.04%. US Airways contends that the official reading was 0.03%.

The higher level meets, but does not exceed, the legal limit allowed by the Federal Aviation Administration, US Airways spokesman Phil Gee said. The FAA's rule for pilots is half California's 0.08% blood-alcohol limit for driving.

The FAA temporarily took possession of the pilot's flight certificate, and an investigation was launched, airport security sources said. The FBI is also looking into the incident, they said.

Gee insisted that the pilot had not violated the law. He said that US Airways has stricter standards for drinking and flying than the FAA, however, and that the airline will investigate the pilot.

He declined to give specifics about US Airways' internal rules for drinking and flying, saying only that they were several times more stringent than the government's.

"Legally, the pilot still could have operated the aircraft. However, we hold employees to a higher standard, and we want to continue the investigation ourselves," Gee said. [many U.S. carriers have .02% as a limit for removal from duty and sometimes termination of employment]

If the pilot is found to have violated US Airways' policy, "we have absolutely no tolerance for matters like this," he added.

It remained unclear Friday how long before the flight the pilot was drinking. US Airways officials said he was stopped more than an hour before the flight. But airport officials believe that it was less than an hour before the scheduled departure. Airport police referred calls to the airline.

The issue of commercial airline pilots' drinking has come under scrutiny in recent months with a few high-profile incidents.

In February, an American Airlines pilot was arrested in Britain on suspicion of being drunk shortly before a flight to Chicago.

And last summer, two former America West pilots were convicted of operating a plane leaving Miami while drunk.


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-pilot8apr08,0,4986499.story?coll=la-story-footer

[Ronnie Honker]

In a nutshell, this is the TRUTH of this beat-up
"Legally, the pilot still could have operated the aircraft."
Maybe, in the minds of some (Airbubba, for one) pilots ought to be recruited from the ranks of Quakers.

[IronWalt]

Do they treal Pilots in Europe as crappy as they do here in the states???

[ChrisVJ]

Without commenting on this particular case and not condoning any amount of alcohol at all in a pilot's blood:

If a person was known to have taken a drink in the few minutes before the test there might be reason to take a further test a while later when the alcohol had been absorbed into the blood stream. However if a person had been drinking some time before, the comment "A third test was taken and the blood alcohol level reached .04%," does smack rather of the attitude "We're going to go on taking tests until we get the result we want."

[DBate]

If it comes to alcohol - yes they do!

Btw. did you all know, that when you eat a strong mint-candy (e.g. a Fishermans Friend) or use mouthwash/spray and take a breathalyzer test thereafter (10 mins), the results will be positive?

[TDK mk2]

I know this is slightly off topic, but kind of close.

I was at my base airport recently taking my sister for a flight and reporting for duty. She checked in and went to security and I went through staff search (in uniform) and went up to the passenger concourse to see her off at the gate. I waited outside the security station and had seen her waiting in the queue so was just checking out the local talent (in the other direction) while I waited. Some time went past and I looked back to see where she was but couldn't see her. While I was scanning a female security supervisor approached me and asked if I was waiting for someone. I told her I was and she asked me if I realised I was not allowed to observe security operations. I was tempted to mention the 100 or so passengers waiting in the queues on the other side but thought better of it. I half expected her to quote some rule saying that pilots aren't allowed to fratenise with airside passengers so I quickly scuttled off and waited for my sister from a distance.

They are known to be fairly 'judicious' at my airport but that's a bit over the top don't you think?!

[niknak]

With respect guys, what do you really want?

Pilot gets breathlysed, result negative, flight delayed by four hours - a pain the butt for all concerned, but the pilot is vindicated and life goes on.

If he had consumed alcohol before flying, hadn't been tested and subsequently made a mistake which resulted in serious injury or loss of life, would you be so quick to condemn?

[CAT3A]

In Europe as far as I know, No alcohol at all 8 hrs before the flight.
Its not that hard to remember!!! and keep things simple

TDK I suspect a certain London airport....(similar exper. my self)

[captjns]

Some contracts provide no booze 24 hours before flight.

[Kalium Chloride]

With respect guys, what do you really want?



On this forum, niknak, it's assumed that pilots are gods who can do no wrong. ;) It'll be seen as the equivalent of persecution, and stuff the fact that, if a cop smelled alcohol on your breath as a driver, you'd reasonably expect to be blowing into the bag.

While I'm basing this only on the reported information, alcohol levels 'below limits' isn't the same as 'no alcohol'. It might be technically legal, but it's not what I'd describe as being in the spirit (no pun intended) of good practice.

It's hard luck on the pilot involved, who I'm sure is generally an all-round good egg, but it's not like there isn't a precedent for this. If you want to be in charge of a couple of hundred people and fifty million dollars' worth of aluminium, then - regardless of your honesty, morals or seniority - you should expect the same scrutiny as would be given to any other critical part of the airplane. Don't like it, be a cab driver.

[Ronnie Honker]

K C, You look like an incoholic, your eyes are glazed - in MY opinion, you slur your words like one (an inco-alco-holic).........and did I mention that you look like you walk like one?!
Prove to the authorities (to whom I've reported my suspicions) that you're NONE of the above!
(Then I might feel half safe to fly..... I think I saw you having a glass of red wine with your meal yesterday! We'd prefer you didn't drink in the WEEK preceding your flying!
Be a terrorist - THEY don't drink!)

[Faire d'income]

If he had consumed alcohol before flying, hadn't been tested and subsequently made a mistake which resulted in serious injury or loss of life, would you be so quick to condemn?

Can you point to a single commercial accident where alcohol was identified as a factor?

Being over the limit on duty is not acceptable. Neither is being harassed daily by passengers and over-zealous security who have no mandate or expertise in identify potential accident causing odours.

[arem]

I can only think of one - and that was a JAL freighter DC-8 out of ANC many many moons ago.

Which of course means that one must assume all in the other accidents the pilots were sober - which in turn casts serious doubt on the current rules regarding the consumption of alcohol before ( or even during ) flight

[niknak]

F.D

No, I cant and I hope that remains the case, but I for one, would be quite happy for pilots to be tested if there is even the slightest hint that they may have consumed alcohol.

As an ATCO, (who enjoys a drink away from work) the same rules to apply to me and I wouldn't have any problem with random testing if were ever introduced.

Prevention of accidents is easier and cheaper than cleaning them up.

[IronWalt]

Don't like it, be a cab driver.

Last time I checked, they didn't let cab drivers drink and drive either.

[RevMan2]

Can you point to a single commercial accident where alcohol was identified as a factor?


No, so isn't that proof of the effectiveness of the strict FUI (Flying Under the Influence) rules?

That's just my opinion - of course, I could be wrong

[fmgc]

Trouble is we will end up with a situation where every time a pilot goes through security that some smart arse member of the flying public will go upto a security guard and claim that he/she could smell alcohol on the pilot's breath, then the breathalizer process beings.

We will end up being breathalied every time we go through security, where will it all end?

[Pilot Pete]

Cat3a
In Europe as far as I know, No alcohol at all 8 hrs before the flight.
Its not that hard to remember!!! and keep things simple
I would go and re-read the regulations if I were you as each state sets it's own rules and you WILL fall foul of many European jurisdictions if you use your 'simple' rule.

In the UK these are the DofT rules from the Railway and Transport Safety Act 2003

93 Prescribed limit

(1) A person commits an offence if-

(a) he performs an aviation function at a time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit, or
(b) he carries out an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function at a time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit.
(2) The prescribed limit of alcohol is (subject to subsection (3))-

(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(3) In relation to the aviation function specified in section 94(1)(h) the prescribed limit is-

(a) in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(4) The Secretary of State may make regulations amending subsection (2) or (3).

(5) Section 94 defines "aviation function" and "ancillary activity" for the purposes of this Part.

94 Aviation functions

(1) For the purposes of this Part the following (and only the following) are aviation functions-

(a) acting as a pilot of an aircraft during flight,
(b) acting as flight navigator of an aircraft during flight,
(c) acting as flight engineer of an aircraft during flight,
(d) acting as flight radio-telephony operator of an aircraft during flight,
(e) acting as a member of the cabin crew of an aircraft during flight,
(f) attending the flight deck of an aircraft during flight to give or supervise training, to administer a test, to observe a period of practice or to monitor or record the gaining of experience,
(g) acting as an air traffic controller in pursuance of a licence granted under or by virtue of an enactment (other than a licence granted to a student), and
(h) acting as a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer.
(2) For the purposes of subsection (1)(h) a person acts as a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer if-

(a) he issues a document relating to the maintenance, condition or use of an aircraft or equipment in reliance on a licence granted under or by virtue of an enactment relating to aviation, or
(b) he carries out or supervises work on an aircraft or equipment with a view to, or in connection with, the issue by him of a document of the kind specified in paragraph (a).
(3) For the purposes of this Part a reference to an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function is a reference to anything which falls to be treated as such by virtue of subsections (4) to (6).

(4) An activity shall be treated as ancillary to an aviation function if it is undertaken-

(a) by a person who has reported for a period of duty in respect of the function, and
(b) as a requirement of, for the purpose of or in connection with the performance of the function during that period of duty.
(5) A person who in accordance with the terms of an employment or undertaking holds himself ready to perform an aviation function if called upon shall be treated as carrying out an activity ancillary to the function.

(6) Where a person sets out to perform an aviation function, anything which he does by way of preparing to perform the function shall be treated as an activity ancillary to it.

(7) For the purposes of this Part it is immaterial whether a person performs a function or carries out an activity in the course of an employment or trade or otherwise.

(8) The Secretary of State may by regulations-

(a) amend this section;
(b) make an amendment of this Part which is consequential on an amendment under paragraph (a).

Enforcement
95 Penalty

A person guilty of an offence under this Part shall be liable-

(a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, to a fine or to both, or
(b) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum.


PP

[Warlock2000]

I wonder what's more dangerous, a pilot in control of an aircraft with 0.04% blood alcohol level or a fatigued pilot frequently maxing the 100 hrs in 28 days and 900 hrs in 365 days rule micro-sleeping on final approach with 0% alcohol level.

As an Emirates pilot, I regularly fall into the later half of the above but despite all the warning bells no-one seems to care.

Come on you bunch of blood sucking journo's, sink your teeth into this! :}
I dare you!

[flown-it]

K C, You look like an incoholic, your eyes are glazed - in MY opinion, you slur your words like one (an inco-alco-holic).........and did I mention that you look like you walk like one?!
Prove to the authorities (to whom I've reported my suspicions) that you're NONE of the above!
(Then I might feel half safe to fly..... I think I saw you having a glass of red wine with your meal yesterday! We'd prefer you didn't drink in the WEEK preceding your flying!
Be a terrorist - THEY don't drink!)
I thought this is thread is about a US Airways pilot so Ronnie Please explain.

[cabingal]

It is a well known fact that staff are not allowed airside unless on duty. When you sign for a security pass this is one of the things you are agreeing to comply with. :=

[Flying Microphone]

Btw. did you all know, that when you eat a strong mint-candy (e.g. a Fishermans Friend) or use mouthwash/spray and take a breathalyzer test thereafter (10 mins), the results will be positive?

That may be true DBate, but come the time for the second test, you'd be very, very negative for an alcohol reading. If it was still positive the "Honestly Guv, it was only an extra strong mint" routine may wear a little thin!:hmm:

[b777900]

I agree, this is getting ridiculous, once paxs realise they have the power to give pilots grief and delay flights simply by whispering in some security persons ear, It will spiral out of control. I think it should be compulsory to get the paxs name and details, and if it is unfounded, the pilot and the airline should be able to take them to task. The same should apply to security staff.
An annomous whisper from a paxs, who is then allowed to continue on with no accountability for their accusations is ridiculous.

Add to this the securities simple minded buzz of gaining recognition, even on the news for "catching a pilot" and your asking for trouble.

Its so ridiculous been accused because "they think" they smell alcohol on your breath, when they do not even appear intoxicated, yet the CAA, FAA,DCA allow pilots to fly daily fatigued, when it has been proven that fatigued causes the same affect as been under the influence of alcohol.

Look at how many pilots are complaining of fatigue because of airlines rostering practices that has been ignored for years by the authorities. What the hell are these authorities reason for existance if not to remedy this dangerous practice, but mention alcohol on the breath, and they think they have found there reason for existance.

[Flying Microphone]

I agree, this is getting ridiculous, once paxs realise they have the power to give pilots grief and delay flights simply by whispering in some security persons ear, It will spiral out of control. I think it should be compulsory to get the paxs name and details, and if it is unfounded, the pilot and the airline should be able to take them to task. The same should apply to security staff.
An annomous whisper from a paxs, who is then allowed to continue on with no accountability for their accusations is ridiculous.


Hang on a minute b777900

I'm only a PPL and enjoy reading this forum (thought I better state that after the recent postings about the Eirjet incident :oh: ), but surely the primary concern here must be safety?

On how many occasions each year are pilots stopped and breathalysed following pax tip-offs? How many occasions with stops following security staff suspicions being raised? I don't have the figures, but I'm guessing from reading these pages that it can't be an every day occurrence???

In Britain more than any other country I've lived in, we have potentially fatal inbred characteristic... the "Let's not bother reporting it... someone else will already have done it won't they? Bound to have!" syndrome.

Whether it's a car alarm going off in a car park or, more seriously, someone staggering to their car after a beer or six in the pub... "Leave it Stan, we're not the only one to have seen him. Someone else will already have told someone".

Sound familiar?

Now add to that that Harold and Hilda going on their package hols to Spain think they've seen aircrew necking a shot before going to the sharp end of an aircraft. They're already reticent to tell anyone 'cos after all "Someone else will have already told someone, won't they", but now they know that should they tell someone and it turns out to be innocent/a mistake/not what it appeared, that they will be sued for slander and dragged through the courts for a big defamation pay-out.

Hmmmmmmmmm, let's see... ain't gonna happen is it?

Surely, if one pax or security person fingers one pilot at some point and prevents God knows what from happening, then its worthwhile? Or am I missing something?

I'm sure it's a complete embuggerence to be stopped as aircrew and told you've been "seen drinking/staggering" by someone. In reality though, how long can it take to prove otherwise? Maybe it's the system and what happens when an accusation is made that needs tweaking.

Don't shoot the messenger!

Cheers

Chris

[harpic]

The moral is DON'T DRINK within 24hrs of duty and not at all during the tour of duty.

Boring I know, but easier than you think, and you won't be giving the moronic jobsworths who appear to be in charge these days any more opportunities than than they already have to make life difficult.

[radeng]

If you have ketosis, your breath may well smell as if you've been drinking cider. In that case, though, I believe there's a good chance that you're an undiagnosed diabetic, if not worse, so maybe it's a good thing to have it found out. But I suspect the jobsworths wouldn't go that extra stage to check why.

[SkyFish]

This is the called the 'Professional' pilots rumour network

- Since when did drinking before flying become good airmanship? or even (boohoo) 'Another Pilot Beatup'

If your breath stinks of booze the next day - you're still drunk ....

[DBate]

That may be true DBate, but come the time for the second test, you'd be very, very negative for an alcohol reading. If it was still positive the "Honestly Guv, it was only an extra strong mint" routine may wear a little thin!

Of course you are absolutely right about that FM. I posted this in case someone wondered why he/she was tested positive after having a mint, brushing teeth or something similar. Never was my intention to give somebody a way for an excuse in case their tested positive.

Myself I go along with harpics lines:

Original posted by harpic:
The moral is DON'T DRINK within 24hrs of duty and not at all during the tour of duty.

No booze at work - no problems. Simple as that.

[GreenOnGo]

Dbate and harpic, my hat is off to you. No alcohol 24 hours before a duty and none when at work! Wow! That would give me about 3 days a month when I could enjoy a (single) beer, looking at my last few rosters. Unless I started drinking with my cereal when I get in from most of my flights. Something I prefer not to do. (Kids and all that!)

I don't consider myself to be a flight risk when I am always able to stop myself before having more than three beers within twelve or more hours of sign on.

Surely moderation is the key here? I can have one beer at the departure gate and be in the same state as the guy who finished his bottle of whiskey twelve hours before. If you want to get plastered, do it on your own time with lots of time to spare (as you get older, you may need more). If you want to have a glass or two of vino with dinner with more than 12 hours to go, then I can't see the harm.

[DBate]

Original posted by GreenOnGo
Dbate and harpic, my hat is off to you. No alcohol 24 hours before a duty and none when at work! Wow! That would give me about 3 days a month when I could enjoy a (single) beer, looking at my last few rosters. Unless I started drinking with my cereal when I get in from most of my flights. Something I prefer not to do.

No alcohol 24h prior duty and none while at work is something I do personally and wich is fairly easy for me since I don't drink alcohol regularly (about 3-5 times a month).

It's not company policy (which is 12h from bottle to throttle), and I do not condemn any pilot who enjoys a glass or two of beer/wine for dinner.
And I also do not think, that those pilots pose a safety hazard (GreenOnGo's last post seemed to imply that I think they are).

I am no babysitter, everyone should know what they're doing when it come to alcohol. The bottomline is:

Drink responsible - we all know the rules, and we all know the risks.

[eal401]

Nice to see so many drink drive supporters here.

Or is that different?

As said by others, surely no drinks in 24 hrs resolves the issue? If you cannot get by with a drink, then you need a doctor.

[Charles Darwin]

Do they treal Pilots in Europe as crappy as they do here in the states???
No they do not. The Europeans still treat people as humans.

[411A]

>>As an Emirates pilot, I regularly fall into the later half of the above but despite all the warning bells no-one seems to care.<<

Nor should they Warlock 2000, it is no less than your 'problem'.

IF you feel so fatigued, you should thell your company and stand down, not moan about it here on PPRuNe.

Can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen (FD).
Simple as that, old boy.

[fmgc]

Excellent, classic 411A, on the top of his form!

[Zero"G"]

If you are on the "safe"side,respect the 12hs,have your 3 beers/2glasses of wine.Protect yourself from "witch hunters"Keep a "HALLS" handy in the morning,it will do the trick,even if you have "bad breath"....:ok: oh..and a good over the counter"eye drop"it will keep the "stone throwers"and "witch hunters"away....BOO!

[bjcc]

DBate

I think you may be the victim of urban myth.

I have breath tested a lot of people. Some of who have just taken mouth wash, been asked about it, as per the proccedure, after telling me, waved thier option to wait 20 mins before the test. They were a big fat 0. Nothing, bugger all. Same goes for mints and pickled onions.

Unless you drink a bottle of the stuff, in which case you will, if it's alcohol based be above the limit anyway, (as the offence is alcohol not liquor), then 5 mins after you take it there is no chance of being over because of factors other than alcohol or possibly diabetes.

As for the silly suggestion, that for reasons of their own, the public will grass on pilots with no good reason, the legislation has been in force for over a year in the UK. It's well known about by security staff at airports, and it hasn't happened.

[Flying Lawyer]

bjcc

As for the silly suggestion, that for reasons of their own, the public will grass on pilots with no good reason, the legislation has been in force for over a year in the UK. It's well known about by security staff at airports, and it hasn't happened.

If by "grass on pilots" you mean members of the public making allegations about pilots to airport security and/or the police, then that has happened - as reported in previous threads.
You're entitled to your opinion about what constitutes "good reason."
In one instance at Manchester, some police constables saw fit to breath-test both pilots following a complaint about the landing from a passenger who claimed that the pilots must have been drinking. It was discussed at length on this forum at the time.
Opinions will differ about whether that constitutes "good reason" and about whether the constables acted reasonably in requiring both pilots to submit to a breath-test.


FL