Comair Transforming SA Aviation

[Afriviation]

Well Checked the Sunday times and Comair is hiring cadets from the previously disadvantaged groups. Well Done Comair. Well the big boys in SA Aviation are setting the example which should be followed by the rest.
These little strides are vital if we ever going to have representivity in this industry.

[captain cumulonimbus]

Well there go the chances of yet another few dozen deserving,hard slogging white males who've battled on,flying crap aeroplanes around the continent living i warzones and trying to get a decent flying job in their own country...:mad:

[Shrike200]

FFS. Maybe they can donate some money to everybody else so they can also afford to do it...aviation training isn't free. Maybe then their 'heroic' example can be followed by 'the rest'. Until then us mortals will have to comply with basic Financial Reality 101.

P.S. This is old news. I would have thought you already knew about this, being so interested in racial transformation in SA aviation.

[J3ST3R]

I see Afriviation is on his PDI high-horse again.

[4HolerPoler]

A gentle reminder; no reference to skin color; Afriviation, you've made your report; no need for a soapbox.

4HP

[FlingWingKing]

I realy feel sorry for you, I sincerely do.

You just cant let this go, can you? When are you going to realise that everything in life must take a natural course? It takes time for a flower to develop in the beautifull thing it is and for a tree to grow so we all enjoy the shade it provides. It takes time for a child to develop into an adult and if you force the issue, something is going to get lost in the process.

Wrongs were done in the past, we all acknowledge it. But thats just it....its in the past. Lets look to the future and build it together. Why try force stuff down peoples throats just to window dress.

Let go of if man.....allow it to follow its own natural course.....

Fly safe and proud

FWK

[Kittycat]

Here we go again.. Afriaviation, dont you have anything else to share? All your threads are on the same boring path...:zzz:

[beechbum]

Hang in there guys. As far as I know, only two cadets to join shortly. 7 or so resignations in the last few months so things are going to move and I'm sure there will be more to come.
If I can say it.....vasbyt manne!!!!:ok:

[bad]

Well done to Comair! Thank God there are some free-thinkers still in existence. :D

[Q4NVS]

I do not really understand the fuss - Comair has been doing this for a while now...

I do feel that in a certain way, cadets are being deprived of a great deal of "experience" due to these systems of rectifying the past...?

How many of them will still be flying after 10 years (Airline flying can be boring)? But if you have those other aviation experiences to back you up, it is easy to APPRECIATE every second of every flight.

The same as the age old Rich Family scenario:
1st Generation: Very poor and starts working hard towards something
2nd Generation: Builds on these and makes gr8 success
3rd & 4th Generation: Gets it in the lap and lets it slide until theres nothing left.

What i'm saying, if you get it 4 free, you won't mind losing it so easy.

Give them all 200hr ME/IF Ratings, but let them go "work" for the experience first - then lets c how many are still there... The ONE's who really want to, i bet you will be.

It is sad, but on a daily basis I c the elements who really do not even want to fly, but now they have done this thing.....:O

[Wings23]

This post confuses me. How can anyone say that airlines are moving forward because of said cadet training scheme.

BULL!

Go and have a look at 'pilot jobs in africa' post. Hundreds of unemployed pilots of which il guess at a quarter are South African.

Praising an airline for moving forward when they are training guys up to comm level when they could have a local and hardworking guy with 1000+ twin turbine at the least. Moving forward, Get real!!!!!



Cheers,

Wings.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Aaahhh crap!

Here we go again...:rolleyes: :hmm:

[Romeo E.T.]

I do not really understand the fuss - Comair has been doing this for a while now...


Not true, this is the second Cadet course that Comair has. The first saw 4 cadets thru to COMM/Twin/IF and then went into Africa on contract flying. Of the 4 one is currently SUCCESFULLY flying on line for about a year at Comair and another 2 are rumured to start B737 training in May 06.

This will be the second batch of cadets to start training thru Comair scheme.

[Airforce1]

What is with Comair though, heard they lost 9 pilots this week, but still have about 17 guys waitlisted who have passed sim & interviews and have being buying time for over a year (for some) to get their start date.

So I could (God willing) get an interview in a month then and perhaps a start date in time for 2010 World Cup when they need me after the cadets who have been disadvantaged since 1994 get their run..................................:E

[beechbum]

Airforce1, no movement = no resignations. Hang in there as I said already. It's hard but vasbyt! As they say good things come to those who wait!It will happen and you'll wonder what you fussed about!
Good luck........:ok:

[Flyer14]

This sort of post makes me pissed. Afrivation you should change your name to agrivation! You clearly have been given a job that you do not deserve, so be thankful and please shut the hell up! I'm a non-white pilot but I don't hold this chip on my shoulder that you do. Do I want that airline job someday - for sure, do I want it handed over to me on a silver plate because of my skin colour - never in a million years. Your ignorant comments make it harder for the guys coming up the normal way, cutting their teeth in the industry to get the recognition they deserve - black or white. Have I worked hard for my CPL and to get were I am now - yes, am I willing to work harder to get that cushy job that's been shoved down so many unwilling, ungrateful, undeserving throats - for sure! Please everyone forgive my anger but this guys incessant and irresponsible whining just pisses me off! :*

[captain cumulonimbus]

ag its the same as everything in this country-"we want it all and we want it NOW" is the attitude...no foresight that good pilots come out of the G.A. ranks,and are not just 'created' to order and fill quotas.

And as for those people who go on and on about how wonderful the BEE programmes are...you're getting it your way,but most of the rest of us find your arrogant crowing quite tiresome.

[Phenomenon]

Flyer14...

:ok: :ok: :ok:

I respect you for speaking up and I know there are hundreds if, if not thousands, of people in your position that feel the same!!!

Respect dude!!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Good man, Mr 14.

Great to see someone prepared to dig in and work for what he wants. You'll be a credit to any airline with the foresight to employ you.:ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

:rolleyes:
Cannot quite fathom the concept here of previously disadvantaged groups.
Previously never had to go to school, never had to learn to read or write, never had to work, never had to take responsibility. Always had special tables reserved, always had special toilets, always protected from Kilimanjaro snowlike trash. Helpfully had to carry reminder of name and address, helpfully had to be in bed with lights out at certain times and helpfully never allowed to carry guns.
Encouraged to sit around doing nothing, smiled at for drinking beer to excess, discreetly prevented from taking up dangerous jobs such as flight crew.
Allowed to play with dynamite underground, allowed to tinker with boats and bicycles, allowed to drive around in very old cars looking distinctly tatty.
All this under a warm sun with the sea side never so far away.
I've been trying to put this sort of retirement package together all my working life.:E

[Stayinalive]

Same kak different day...will be talking about the disadvantaged till 2030 or more in this country.
With 10000 hrs under my belt I'll keep pissing around Africa like the real men in aviation and drink at a real bar with real people who appreciate what aviation is about...
Just another company bowing to the political pressure of playing the numbers game...just the same as in our sport.
Whats new?

[Shrike200]

I see that there were protests recently in the USA about affirmative action at a university there (maybe more than one, and I don't know much more than that unfortunately), so it's clearly still an issue for them. Their education shake up happened in the 60's didn't it? So, lets see, it's 40 years on now....our situation is worse, give it twice as long.....so maybe affirmative action will be outlawed over here in about 2074 or so? Vasbyt! :ok:

Seriously though, this is a problem we're just going to have to work around, not that most of us had anything to do with apartheid. We'll suffer, while those who weren't oppressed will have advantages over us. When we see blatant examples of idiocy though, you can bet we'll make a noise though!

To quote that sage, Homer Simpson: "If you don't like it, go to Russia!" :8

[mikemal]

Cavortingcat - absolutely brilliant.
Your talents are definitely underutilised!

Mike

[Afriviation]

It is rather disappointing to uncover so much outrage at a noble and just intervention. The kind of contention that exists in SA Aviation as a result of affirmative action etc is a latent safety hazard in Aviation Safety. I don't know the people that post on this forum, but it's very possible that i've flown with some and they are disgusted at this undeserving pilot sitting next to them that had everything handed to them in a silver platter. That can have disastrous consequences should a situation requiring the implementation of good CRM to handle an emergency etc. I therefore would support a call for the CRM courses in SA to include an element of improving relations across racial lines. This risk will escalate as more and more non pales enter the Flight Deck.

I've seen some threads being closed etc, because of hint of racial tones. Where does the freedom of expression concept start and end here at pprune? Racial issues/ Affirmative action affects everyone in SA Aviation and everyone talks about it in corridors etc. this is a perfect forum for these issues to be trashed out. I believe the more people talk, they are able to unload the burden. 4HP your comments please.

Le me close by re-iterating Well Done Comair, Change is overdue and SA Aviation needs more.

[hyenacackle]

Know what you can do with your "noble and just intervention"
OOPS:ooh: to deep?

Really hope so

hie hie hie hie hie hie hie

[Swoosh]

For all those who are frustrated with the Airlines in SA, show them the bird and come to Cathay. It's great over here. Keep applying and you will be selected purely on MERIT.

[Phenomenon]

Afriviation...

It seems that it is always you that manages to twist it back to racial lines.

I only have 2 points to state at this time...

1. Any pilot who has an understanding of CRM would not let whatever conflict there is between the crew, affect their performance in the air. Do your job, finish the flight and then sort the problem out on the ground.

2. The conflict is not their because of racial differences but purely because of the point... Do you deserve to be in that position?

I can gaurentee you Flyer14 will never have these "problems" you are having and when he gets to the airlines, he will have the respect that he deserves because he paid his dues, like all of us, to get there.

[4HolerPoler]

4HP your comments please

Do you think I'm the guest speaker? In fact what makes you think that I want to be drawn into this drivel, you supercilious xenophobe? As mod I am obliged to trawl through your crud and deflect overzealous responses to your baited statements. That is the only reason that I even read this crap.

I'm tired of your ill-founded expectant stance; your constant grand-standing on something that you believe has to do with aviation, yet is actually politically motivated and downright racist. You believe that because you're a non-pale that you should get some kind of a head-start over someone who was born a different color? Goes to show how screwed-up things are in SA. The sooner professional placements are made on a merit and qualification basis and you leave skin color out of the equation, the sooner I will believe that you lot are serious about this equality thing. Until then, you Sir are the racist.

4HP

[Margarita]

Exactly, and that is not only applying in the south.

[Desperate Wannabe]

Good on ya, 4hole poler, could not have said it better myself, order up, my shout at the bar, and only a pleasure:ok: :ok:

Desperate Wannabe
Will fly for food:{

[reptile]

4HP - you are a gentleman and scholar..........and a fine judge of horses. My hat off to you.

[fluffyfan]

I therefore would support a call for the CRM courses in SA to include an element of improving relations across racial lines

Afri, I am more and more convinced you are not in SAA, because if you were you would know that that very subject is being addressed as one of the topics in the new CRM "Threat and Error module" currently under way, and it all boils down to the fact that we need to respect eachother and put our differences aside and try to understand where we are all coming from, you are making it very difficult for us to do that with your continued stance, try reading some of the posts in reply to yours, dont just glance over them actually see what people are trying to say to you. I will say again I dont think you are in SAA because I have not met anyone who is as blatantly racist as yourself, and you better change your mindset because you will not get into SAA with your attitude.

4HP I salute you

[FlingWingKing]

This thread is aimed at Afriaviation, seeing that you are the expert in the field of representivity in SA aviation.

I must agree with my colleague fluffyfan in regards to your current employer. I have met and spoken with many non - white pilots at SAA and although some of them has very strong standpoints about various issues, I have not perceived any of them as the racist you are.

Afriaviation please enlighten us with your great wisdom and knowlegde regarding the SAA and Comair cadett schemes.

1. What is the selection criteria?
2. What is the representivity?
3. What is the cost per cadett?
4. When they have completed the CPL, where are they placed and what criteria is used to place them?
5. What is the success rate of these cadetts? In other words, how many get washed because they do not perform? Are they in fact washed or just given another chance?
6. How is the scheme advertised?
7. What is the typical "carreer path" of a cadett?

I have many more question but fear not even one will be answered by you, judging the way you addressed previous posts requesting a response from you.

You make many statements but seem to lack the knowledge as to how these should be implemented.

To 4HolerPoler regarding your post in "Comair Transforming SA Aviation": Sir, I salute you. I think you have summed up Mr "Agrivation" very accurately and hopefully pushed his piles back a bit. Thank you for saying what many of us were burning to say.

[Afriviation]

Some enlightening research. I did not cook these figures, they're from a reliable economist in South Africa

IT SEEMS that some circles cling to the belief that affirmative action has devastated the prospects for young white people and — to a lesser extent — coloured people.
Yet however much some people cherish this perception, the data show it is simply wrong.
Even if we take skills and age into account, unemployment remains highest among Africans, especially African women. Management in the private sector is still heavily dominated by whites with remarkably little change in representivity since the mid-1990s. And the poverty rate for whites is a fraction of the rate for the rest of the population.
The figures on joblessness demonstrate that non-Africans still have first claim on most jobs. In September 2004, unemployment ran at 46% for Africans under 30 years old. In contrast, it was 30% for coloureds and Asians in that age group, and 10% for white youth. Among African women under 30 years old, three out of four were unemployed.
Some of the discrepancy reflects differences in education. But significant differences remain even if we look at people with the same educational achievements. Thus, one out of 10 African university graduates under 30 was unemployed in September 2004. The figure was under one in 20 for other groups. In short, it is clear that the inherited racial hierarchy still largely determines who will get a job.
Even if they found employment, Africans were less likely than whites to hold powerful positions. In 2004, Africans constituted two-thirds of all employed people while whites made up a seventh. But Africans held just 14% of senior management positions in the private sector not counting the self-employed. Coloureds and Asians contributed 17% and whites 54%. Compared with data in the October household survey, representivity among private-sector managers had worsened slightly since 1996.
Even in the public sector, senior management was far from representative. The public sector accounted for about a fifth of all employees. Africans held 47% of senior management positions, coloureds 15%, and whites 39%. In other words, whites were over-represented by a factor of two.
As might be expected, the relegation of black people to lower levels in employment was reflected in the distribution of incomes. In 2004 only 7% of whites earned less than R1500 a month compared with 61% of Africans and 31% of coloureds. Meanwhile, Africans accounted for only a fifth of the top 5% of income earners, while whites made up nearly three-quarters. True, the situation was better than in 1996, when Africans constituted just a seventh of the high-income group. But the change was hardly overwhelming.
Perhaps the most disconcerting facet of persistent racial inequality relates to tertiary education. A university degree often forms a prerequisite for economic and social power. Yet in the early 2000s, Africans made up just more than half of all university students and less than half of students in historically white institutions. Meanwhile, whites made up a third of all university students, and two-fifths of those in the privileged schools.
True, lower levels of education contributed to worse economic prospects for Africans. But educational discrepancies should not be blown out of proportion. According to the September 2004 Labour Force Survey, Africans accounted for two- fifths of university graduates, about the same proportion as whites. The average African under 30 years old had about 10,5 years of formal education, compared with 11 years for the average coloured youth and 12 years for the average white. Given these data, why does the myth persist that affirmative action has had a tremendous effect?
One factor is that some individuals view the loss of privilege, not as a requirement for equality, but as a loss of entitlements. They resent the fact that they can no longer count on an assured career with the competition suppressed by law.
A second explanation lies in high unemployment itself, and especially the job losses of the late 1990s. It is fatally easy for some workers to blame ethnicity for the shortage of jobs, rather than the economic shifts associated with downsizing in the public sector and tariff reductions.
Ultimately, the only solution is to reduce the unemployment rate to well below the current crisis levels. No one wins if every group seeks only to increase opportunities for itself while a third of the labour force remains excluded from the economy.

The statistics referred to above are across the board in SA business. Aviation is on the other extreme with much less presence of non pales.

[Margarita]

What the above has to do with aviation? However, what are the requirements to be counted as african? Is it enough that one is born there and family been living over 100 years? From what country most of these wealthy whites are coming from, Europeans or Americans?

[Q4NVS]

Afriaviation, you are really boring the :mad: out of me.
As for your last post, copying something from an article, is the easiest thing to do, you know?

Manipulating numbers, to reflect the picture that one needs/wants to see, is even easier. :mad: , one can even manipulate a Roulette Table to promise you a Million $'s.

What are you trying to say, or should we ask the Moderators to create an African Racial Forum with Soap Box, specifically for you..?

Get a life man, while ur at it, get a job as well!
:*

[FlingWingKing]

I have said it before........

LEAVE THE FLYING FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO FLY, pale or non-pale (to put it your "politically correct" manner).

Go and become a politician.....maybe YOU can then single handedly transform SA Aviation.

Flyer14 is a great example of some-one who is doing this flying thing for the right reasons. I think some of his qualities should rub off on you........Oh, I forgot, nothing can rub of on you, cause water just flows of a duck's back.............

[Afriviation]

4HP and some of you have referred to me as a racist, well according to the definition here below, I cannot be a racist. Furthermore you choose to continue to being subjective about this issue by attacking the messenger, It will not work as I will not succumb to your insults and if I die tomorrow the problem will persist. Amazing how this forum perceives my posts as racist, whereas there have been hundreds of posts here lashing at policies aimed at transforming Aviation in SA. Trouble is, my posts are from the other side of the fence, I represent the other side of the story which is never heard. I WILL NOT SHUT UP.

Flyer 14, if you're really non pale, you might be enlightened by the last paragraph of this definition.

Racism is a global system of material and symbolic resource distribution management more comprehensively defined, in accordance with each of the following principles:
Principle I. Racism is an ideological, structural and historic stratification process by which the population of European descent, through its individual and institutional distress patterns, intentionally has been able to sustain, to its own best advantage, the dynamic mechanics of upward or downward mobility (of fluid status assignment) to the general disadvantage of the population designated as non-white (on a global scale), using skin color, gender, class, ethnicity or nonwestern nationality as the main indexical criteria used for enforcing differential resource allocation decisions that contribute to decisive changes in relative racial standing in ways most favoring the populations designated as 'white.'

Principle II. The aim of this peculiar post-1492 stratification process has been to aggregate an upwardly mobile and putatively 'white' racial group that is stratified internally and that strives to validate its own ascendancy using a shifting range of 'white' cultural practices which are defined as 'white' not on any presumed biological basis, but on the basis of "ideological whiteness"--a field of racial discourse and representation.

Principle III. The conceptual content of this historic and politically-charged discursive field is sustained by racial agents who in many ways articulate and justify the suppression of "ideological blackness" (and every form of non-whiteness this may entail) which may be accomplished by many formal and informal means of institutional domination, routinized interpersonal interactions, cultural imperialism, or by any other racialized means of information control.

Principle IV. As a generative principle of racism, "ideological whiteness" refers to a dual behavioral process entailing enactments of identify formation and resource access legitimation, both of which were practices once overtly recognized as aspects of "white supremacy," but which now may be more subtly and covertly reproduced as an observable and routine set of implicitly prescriptive, but explicitly disavowed white supremacist beliefs and practices to which all who identify as 'white' (or who behave as 'whitened') are expected to adhere--especially white males--if they wish to maintain their own racial standing as members of these two privileged 'white' groups and assert their negotiable right to privileged resource access.

Flyer 14 Note
Princple V. Collectively, the 'white' and/or 'whitened' members of this racially privileged global population tend to bolster their shared political intent to impose patterns of restricted resource access on racially subordinant populations, and aim to preserve their presumably non-negotiable right to prescribe, and even dictate, lessor resource access rights for certain upwardly mobile members of the 'non-white' population whose internalized racism, reliable complicity, and carefully scrutinized willingness to cooperate with racial dominates is always required and rewarded.
Dr. Helan Enoch Page
Associate Professor, Anthropology Department
University of Massachusetts-Amherst Distributed at the American Anthropological Association, 1993
Updated and extended, 1999

[FlingWingKing]

You just confirmed the fact that you should be a politition............

Find another forum...you are realy BORING!!!!!!!!!!:bored:

By the way...anything on my request of information on the cadett schemes Oh Knowlegdable Pilotition????????:suspect:

[hyenacackle]

This will be my last reply on any subject that afriviation may post or
comment on. Not only pprune that can block is it.

We all know what the word racist means in our context and you are
surely not that st...????????

Ok, maybe you are.

But a racist, YOU? Never :E

hie hie hie hie hie hie

[Afriviation]

FWK, the websites of the airlines concerned or perhaps their HR departments will give you the most accurate information. Would you trust any figures from a "pilotitian"?

[AfricanSkies]

Afriviation,

First of all, when are you going to contribute to this forum with something other than
Unashamed baiting of your white colleagues in aviation?
Cant you see that with every post, their opinion of you is lowered further? If you
Keep posting your long-winded and nauseating prejudices, soon, we won’t even reply.

On the definition of racism you submitted – plain and simple, it’s incorrect.
Firstly, it only allows for the racists to be white, when we have seen numerous examples
From other parts of the world, eg, Bosnian/Serb, Hutu/Tsutsi.

You have obviously suffered a tortured upbringing, and still live in total abject fear
Of being subjugated by the white man. Afri, those times are gone, it’s time you
Understood that we are all in this together now, black or white.

Can’t you just relax and start to live and forgive, start enjoying life without constantly
Undermining the pleasure you should be taking from just being alive every day?
Not that it’s much of my business, but I thought I’d just give you some advice.
Thank you.:cool:

[4HolerPoler]

I've had enough of this. After giving a few seconds thought to whether I'm abusing my remit, I have removed Afriviation's privileges to interact on this site. As aviators, we come to this site to relax and enjoy ourselves among others of our ilk. Afriviation's posts and agenda have served only to aggravate the great majority of the members and have little to no significance in aviation matters.

If you don't agree with my heavy-handed decision please feel free to make your report to [email protected]

4HP

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
:hmm:

What Ho Afriviation !:)
Your five enumerated principles represent quite an achievement.
Each paragraph of principle is such a run - on sentence as to compound grammatical unintelligibility with lack of intellectual forethought and reasoning. Such mental meanderings could only come from the pen of a socially disassociated liberal, steeped in the traditions of self exculpatory rhetoric so endemic within the confines of United states east coast Ivy League institutions, of which Amherest College is one.
You should be embarrassed to be associated with such tripe (sic)! The definition amounts to nothing more than an arguement that at some time in some place, the supposedly cranially more developed peoples suppressed those of lesser intellect. As a rational arguement; it's drivel.

On a slightly different note, might I be so presumptuous as to commend 4HolerPoler for the reasoned moderation of the reply he made to a demand that was, to say the least, impertinent.

Cheerio! Got to catch a taxi!:E

[FlingWingKing]

At last..............

thanx 4HP

Maybe now we can get busy with the right stuff...excuse the pun

[cavortingcheetah]

:suspect:

In the good old days of the Roman Emperors, well, specifically the Julians, those who nurtured the sort of thoughts held by Afriviation and who abused rhetoric in order to publish the aforesaid mental perambulations, would have been proscribed.
One amongst the nicer formalities of proscription was the nailing up in the Forum of the proscribed one's name, thus ensuring that he (usually) became totally unemployable, thereby saving the state further grief and disarray.
Possibly not a reasoned flyer in today's day and age but sheer Vitriol, dare I say it, Vitriol. :(

[beechbum]

4HP good man! I was very loathed to comment on this dim wits' view of SA Aviation - again - but thankfully you have seen the light and removed this imbecile(sp?) from these forums. His painful views continually crop under every thread imaginable and it was about time!
Well done! And good ridance Afrivation who caused so much agrivation.:mad: !!!

[Romeo E.T.]

Afriviation, If you are still able to read these pages, fly well my friend, now at least you can concentrate all your efforts on flying, and not at infuriating all you fellow aviators. Well done 4HP

[Phenomenon]

nuff said... :ok:

[Scruffy]

Skies....

Lovely:E

[Shrike200]

On the definition of racism you submitted – plain and simple, it’s incorrect.
Firstly, it only allows for the racists to be white...

Yeah, I was wondering if I was the only other one to spot that tiny little slip up!



Thanks 4HP, thats a relief...

[AfricanSkies]

Cheers, Scruffy:}
Was wondering if anyone would catch:E

[fluffyfan]

Afri........Where did you get that definition? the Ku Klux Klan? did you just replace the word the White for Black and hope nobody would notice?

Why not try the Oxford Dictionary Version
racism

• noun 1 the belief that there are characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to each race. 2 discrimination against or antagonism towards other races.

— DERIVATIVES racist noun & adjective.



Dude........to put it simple....like you........ that means any colour/race/creed against any other colour/race/creed

[fluffyfan]

AfricanSkies..............Very Eloquent, well said

You are Chuck on this post.....Chuck Norris that is

[4HolerPoler]

If you guys don't mind, I'm going to pull the plug on this one. Personally, the sooner it slides off the bottom of the page the better.

Thread closed.

4HP