First Empowered Master post disappears.

[Lied2again]

It would appear that the first Empowered Master Post has now been
dis-established by an Oxon Sqn Commander, despite previous assurances from PMA that the demise of commissioned NCA would not mean the complete removal of NCA from the management chain:mad:

Are there any other instances of this occuring or is this, hopefully, just a one off.

PS I fully expect to take a fair bit of stick here from our 2 winged bretheren buy please spare a thought for the loyal and long serving NCA who were promised this situation would never arise before taking the pi@@ tooooo much:ok:

[Ginger Beer]

The problem that's always been there since the birth of Empowered Masters, not soooo long ago, is that as soon as they leave the Leaders meeting , the self proclaimed grown-ups, who have done the slightly longer course will say, Mmmmmmmm now what do WE really want to do chaps ?

It always was and still is, cheaper FOFLs, it's purely cost driven,

Those individuals that would prostitute themselves for the posts are fools,

Stinks

Ginge

[roush]

It would appear that the first Empowered Master Post has now been
dis-established by an Oxon Sqn Commander, despite previous assurances from PMA that the demise of commissioned NCA would not mean the complete removal of NCA from the management chain:mad:


Which post are you talking about?
I've told that an Empowered Master post is next.....so that's back to the kippers then.:{ :yuk:

[Blacksheep]

Empowered Master Post? WTF is one of them? Is it like letting the SWO moderate a Forum? :}

[roush]

Empowered Master Post? WTF is one of them? Is it like letting the SWO moderate a Forum? :}

Exactly, but with flying pay.

[buoy15]

Lied2
Are you referring to the post of CASWO, who is a MACR or WO, appointed by the CAS, to advise him and his dept on problems such as,TOS, living -in SNCO's, deployments, family concerns, pay and allowances, PVR and lots of other grieviances.

[Lied2again]

Bouy,
I am referring to the position Crewman Leader, an empowered Master's post that has been scrapped as part of a new Sqn Cdr's management plan.

This means that control of the Sqn crewmen will be devolved to pilot Flt Cdr's, a situation we were promised would never happen, and has removed any direct input from those best placed to nurture and guide young NCA.

I posted to see if this was the beggining of a trend and not simply the inappropriate flexing of a young Wg Cdr's muscles:mad:

[Ginger Beer]

B15,

An Empowered Master is one who has taken over from the old Flt Lt Leaders of NCA sections instead of being Dep Ldr. They are used as a cheaper alternative to Flt Lts as the Air Farce has decided it wants to get rid of ALL Commissioned Rearcrew by 2020 (so they say anyway).

The farce going on in above thread does not surprise me in the least, did we honestly think it wouldn't happen?

Ginge

[dessert_flyer]

I dont think there is a section on any sqn at the secret oxfordshire airbase where there is an empowered Master. There were, but they all seem to of been taken over again, (they didnt last long). Maybe this is a station policy? Is it happening anywhere else? Seems to me that this goes along the same lines as the pyrimid system, that seemed to dissapear as well?

[Spit the Dog]

I think you will find there is still one ,and I hear doing an excellent job!

[Floor Point]

Well guys,

This just further proves to everybody that it's all Lies, Lies and Damned Lies that are spewing forth from the bowels of the career management team at Innsworth.

I for one feel both let down and bitter at the descision to further undermine the WSOp branch and especially the ALM fraternity by removing another layer of 'Top Cover' and giving experienced, proven and capable ALMs any further career goals once the have attained MACr rank.

Considering the marked shortfall in manning levels in the ALM world, currently running at over 25% on my sqn, what other incentives are there for ambitious, talented and currently loyal MACr to aim for?

I am also saddened that the individual concerned may now feel that he has been so undermined that he feels it necessary to move on and start afresh elsewhere. A sad loss to the sqn and yet another hack at the ankles of crewman experience levels.

[buoy15]

Lied2 and Ginger
Thanks
Never heard about Empowered Master before
The Front Line Strategic Kipper fleet has employed Sqn WO's for at least the last 5 years.
They have immediate access to their Sqn Cdr, and their TOR's cover all aspects of discipline and welfare of the Sqn, and they advise the Boss of any problems regardless of rank
I should also mention that Maritime has now reversed the "Pyramid" which is now the the right way up - compared to other fleets! Ha! - How many Master Loadies - Wow! How Many! Never - How Many! Say again - Wow

[Could be the last?]

Innsworth would do well to observe the current situation at the secret SH base in Oxfordshire. 2 Sqns and 2 different ways of leading NCA, which one is working? Ask the guys on the coal face!:ok:

[Sponge Bob]

This was not a proper empowered Master post anyway. The concept, driven by the results of the AASS, was that SELECTED individuals would be posted in to fill SO3 or FOFL posts, not only on Sqns but also at HQs and the like. Whilst I do not fully agree with the complete removal of the career opportunities associated with this decision, I do believe that properly selected individuals could successfully fill the posts were they to be allowed to so. By that I mean that the empowered Masters should be treated as SO3s, which was the idea in the first place. After all, the personality involved is more important than the rank. I guess we all know of good/bad NCA leaders -not wishing to hi jack this thread!!!
In my opinion, the empowerment principle has been fudged in concept, certainly on SH. Flight Masters are doing what they have always been employed to do, look after tha NCA on their Flight. A Master selected to fulfil the Leader post should do just that and work for the Sqn 2ic and be an independent voice direct to the Sqn Cdr regarding NCA issues. In turn the Sqn Cdr would be wise to then use any advice given, mindful of the environment in which it is presented.

[Could be the last?]

It is my understanding that Innsworth left the decision as to how empowered MACR are employed to Sqn Cdrs; in fact, if the OCs so desired they could still have FOFLs.
What they really need to do is define the policy, so everyone knows exactly what they are working towards. But then that would require them to put the goal posts on the pitch before they moved them!!:confused:

[nutmeg]

COULD BE,

Not strictly true, the policy and implementation should have been initiated by those that administered the branch, ie the commissioned types. But, owing to a combination of intransigence and not caring too much about what had happened as their own rug had been pulled, no real direction has been given and, in the main, the transition has been ad hoc. Amongst the SH peoeple however, I understand that a commissioned Crewman fought for and achieved a Master replacing him and his full powers, including representation at Sqn execs (DHFS), perhaps a model for how things should have been and could be done.
As for the remaining JO crewmen, the only reason we have commissioned leaders now, like the dinosaur Sqn in Oxfordshire, is to allow those who have not done so to have a command tour for their career progression. Those that have not done a Leader's tour are not, in my humble opinion, worthy of promotion to sqn ldr.

[Could be the last?]

The last point is very interesting? Especially with a number of "Branchies" on the move up and falling into the last category!:confused:

[Hoots]

Buoy 15,

Empowered Master are employed on the Kipper fleet, they were first thought of from the Airmen Aircrew Sustainability Study and were put in place with the Disbanding of 206 and the Sqn restructuring. Hence the posts of WSOp Ldr (EW), WSOp Ldr (ACO) and the Air Eng's had one in place from just before the restructuring, but in all Sqns now. All have the proper PICs associated with them, so a proper established post. The Sqn WO can be any of the Sqn's MACR and is not an established post as such. So maybe your just slightly confused about the term Empowered Masters.

Hope this clears things up.

[Could be the last?]

I'm guessing by the lack of replies that the MACR are generally not that bothered and have just accepted their fate?:bored:

[Ginger Beer]

OK,

Let's think, extra responsibilities for few extra (non remuneration) rewards, mmmmmmmmmm How many of the commissioned brethren would sign up for that without the carrot of promotion or enhanced pay?

If it's not good enough for them, it's not good enough for us.

Ginge

[Could be the last?]

A little short-sighted Ginge.

The fact that the system has promoted you (generic) means that you take on the extra responsibilities associated with the rank. If you don't want them, then don't accept the promotion etc etc.

However, as this empowerment has been adopted as the future of NCA, then why not exploit it to its full potential? Find the SO3 jobs you want, rattle a few cages and make sure you get them.

Or B, roll over and take it up the :eek: !

[Ginger Beer]

If I'd wanted an SO3 job, I'd have gone to Cranditz (had the offer and turned it down(gnd Commission)) and done the course however, as I have chosen to remain NCA, I am happy with the prospect of being MACr and deputising for the Leader, and not happy about taking up their role full time for 10k less a year than they were getting:mad:

I'm perfectly happy and willing to be the Leader as MACr NCA and do the job, as long as I get the dosh. I don't need the pretty badges and waves to get off in the morning.

There are plenty of MACr who are more than capable of holding down the role of NCA Leader.

It's not short-sighted, it's a reluctance to being taken advantage of:ok:

Ginge

[k1rb5]

How much more would a Flt Lt (Eng/ALM/AEOp) get than a PAS Master on the top few levels?

[Avtur]

For the 2006 rates of pay;

Master Aircrew (max level 20) get £54,664
Rear Crew Officers (not Nav) get £ 62,543 (max level 28)

So £7879 pa difference for doing the same job.

[Tourist]

No, thats £7879 for working harder at school.

[Hoop Stress]

£393 extra, per month after tax for "working harder at school" seems like wasted effort to me.

[Avtur]

And for the non-Aircrew who worked harder at school; they need to make Wing Commander (level 1) to get payed more than a Master.

[Tourist]

That entire post explains why you are a DW.
Work harder for 2/3 years, get paid more for life. The equation works for me.

[Avtur]

Sorry Tourist, you will need to explain what a DW is. I guess I would have known had I worked harder.

[Admin_Guru]

Tourist: You should change your 'handle' to tool. I have NCA equipped with a degree and not one in philosophy or some other uni get-out clause either amongst the boys & girls who work on my sqn.

I know of a Sarboy NCA with a Law degree, and one with a degree in Aerodynamics that the RAF are leaning on to become and Eng O and he wishes to remain NCA.

So take your pathetic ramblings and put them where the sun dont shine, for if you are a peer, you make me ashamed.

[ratty1]

Tourist: I have NCA equipped with a degree and not one in philosophy or some other uni get-out clause either amongst the boys & girls who work on my sqn.



You have personal NCA? They belong to you do they? You own them? Your squadron?

[bigley]

I'm still wondering what DW means?

[Could be the last?]

AVTUR:

So what is the chances of a Flt Lt getting to level 28? The reality, promoted into a job of greater responsibility or out of the service. So for doing the leaders job it would probably cost more long-term to employ MACR. Thoughts?

GINGE:

Sorry, how do you work out the system would take advantage of you for doing the Leaders job? Surely, like I said before, if you don't want to do it then don't accept the promotion and stay a Sgt. It is not a secret, the responsibilities and duties of a Sgt, FS and MACR/WO are all written down in QRs.

If you think the system would take advantage, compare your wage to a civvy company. How far up the tree would you have to go to get the equivalent? Then compare the responsibility and decide who is being taken advantage of. :{

[Ginger Beer]

Could be,

tis a valid point however, my point is this- if the job is worth paying someone 62K/yr, then pay them for doing the job. If the MACr is up to it , then pay him, don't be cheap. I'm not MACr so it doesn't apply to me, I just don't like the penny pinching ways of the service when I've already witnessed the crass wastage of millions of pounds of tax payers dosh:suspect:

GB

[Spit the Dog]

These are all valid points, however, nobody has addressed the subject of future positions once an individual has completed an Empowered post. It was always taken as read that a section ldr would gradually spiral up the posts or rotate around the Sqns, (wilts). But where do you place a 41 year old MACR post empowerment? Is he supposed to then sit on the side lines on a new a/c type under the management of another up-and- coming young MACR. ?

[Avtur]

Could be the last? My thoughts...

In the (unlikely?) event that a Rear Crew Flt Lt gets promoted, he will still remain at the same level on the PAS as PAS does not recognise Officers' rank. He can only progress up the PAS annually and if assimilated to age 55 could make level 28 at which he is capped.

All Rear Crew Officers (not Nav), irrespective of rank, can therefore only ever earn £393 net per month more than a Master who is eight levels below him on the 2006 pay scale, so employing a Flt Lt in an SO3 post will always, in the long-term, cost the Treasury £4716 pa more than a Master would.

The question is; given the additional responsibilities and grief for no financial gain, should a Rear Crew PAS Officer ever accept promotion?

[Avtur]

Spit:

You would probably post him into another empowered position just as Flt Lts were posted from one JO post to another.

With the Rear Crew Officer being phased-out, more and more JO/SO3 posts are likely to become available and will need to be filled by Masters willing to take on the responsibility. Perhaps raising the PAS cap by two levels or so for "Empowered Masters" would provide some encouragement?

The bottom line is, as with most recent changes, the concept was not fully analysed or thought-through before implimentation.

Incidently, I believe there is a Master who is running an RAF Careers Office, so these JO/SO3 posts are not necessarily limited to flying posts.

[Spit the Dog]

Avtur

You are quite correct about the Careers Office, with more to follow I hear!
Regarding the SO3 jobs you refer to, the majority of the empowered MACRs will be on the PAS, which as we know indicates an individual will only be employed in a 'Flying related position'. I can not see that there wil be enough posts to meet that criteria.

[Avtur]

The term "flying related" can be stretched quite considerably with some imagination: The CIO Master would be, amongst other things, responsible for recruiting Aircrew and is therefore a "flying related" post.

I am sure that this sort of imagination is already being used for Commissioned PAS Aircrew who have been posted away from flying duties.

By the way, do you know what a DW is? I'm longing to know!!

[Wilkiknife]

Unfortunately, the NCA world is reaping the seed that has been sown by a minority of MACR and ill thought out policy. The minority :{ who have reached the so called top of the tree and are unwilling to go that little bit further to look after the more junior of their brethren exist in every trade and branch and when there are weak SO3's who are happy to rest until their 55 or other exit point then nothing will change. The secret Oxford base has some excellent Commissioned ALM's and there are others, who I am told, have fought and been over-ruled.

I suggest that that the masses get behind them and propose a work around rather than accept it and do what the masters mafias have been doing for years.......winge. My condolences to the empowered master concerned, a good man and a bad situation just going to get worse. :uhoh:

as boris says - 'Tin Hat on!'

[Could be the last?]

Wilki:

Your argument will have far more credibility if you don't winge! Come up with a plan that answers all the excuses that may come at you.

The next stage is to sell it to the Execs. There will always be those that require a hard sell but slowly, slowly catch the monkey. Ultimately, you have to sell it to the Sqn boss. Be positive! Highlight what he will gain for his Sqn. Give specific examples that may be affecting the Sqn, issues such as manning, and then give solutions. Build the credibility of empowerment by providing answers and eventually he should see the light. More importantly he will realise the assets he has.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Last..

Have you been reading 'Management for Goldfish'????:\

more LAter;
'J' Bloke!!:cool:

[Floor Point]

There have been a lot of really constructive and heartfelt contributions to this thread, but the question still out there; where do we go from here?

Is there anything to be gained from holding an ALM conference with a wider spectrum of views than the old 'Loadie Leaders Conference'? The matter of empowerment would certainly be a riviting area for many of us and would probably culminate in a united way forward.

The most important thing is that we, as a trade, come together with a strategy to tackle what is obviously a real threat to advancement for our experienced and thoroughly professional senior ALMs. We did this for the recent trade review, and even though the powers that be are still sitting on the results, we presented ourselves in a much better light than the last review which resulted in the injustice of lower-banding the ALM FS's & MACr. This example of a focused and united front has demonstrated what we can achieve when we set our minds on something, especially when important issues are at stake.

[Could be the last?]

FP

Top idea. 2 items for the agenda:

1. The "Branch Sponsor" to outline the policy/future of empowerment?

2. A review of management and leadership trg for NCA (Sgt FS MACR).

Any thoughts from the forum?

[Winco]

The reason for the removal of MACR is quite simple actually, its because he cannot be seen to do the job better than his commissioned bretherin.

Tourist, your comments are a little childish with all that nonesense about hard work at school etc. You and I both know that the 'average' MACR is a far better organiser and frankly a better manager than most flt cdrs. I have worked with flight commanders who at best are average and at worst are a danger!

I'm all for the Masters!!

Yours Aye
The Winco

[Wilkiknife]

CBTL,

It was not a whinge, it is clear that on the Sqn that has retained a Flt Cdr that the system works, in comparison on the other it is falling apart. Elsewhere on the Sqns there are differences but it is fact that despite some of the finest in the NCA world being excellent leaders, motivators and organisers there still exists the FS and Masters who are not, They are what has usurped the empowerment, by at times being seen publicly to be in conflict with those that have been put in the position through hard work. Hence the comment 'brought on themselves'.

The only ones who can regain this initiative are the ones with the commissioned voice, it is up to them to put the strategy forward and to staff the case that is why they attend ISS and JOCC. There are now more SO2 ALM's than there were, it is now time for them to earn their pay and lead the immensely loyal NCA back into a profession with a career path. You would be surprised how many senior officers dont see it working and are concerned.

I pray it will recover for there is nowhere to go other than for NCA to get a commission in another branch. Just a thought, will there ever come a time when the Ops Officer will take over the programming as well!!:mad:

[Hoots]

Just a thought for you reference SO3 jobs.

I was down at the Multi-Engine Users Operators Liaison Day down at Cranwell a few years ago, 2 Sqn Ldrs from PMA, stood up and said that the MACR could get the SO3 jobs that no one wanted. As the only NCA in the audience, I stored this comment for further use. I later mentioned this to AMP during a station visit, who said he'd sort them out. However, just shows you the mentality of some of our supposed leaders.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Wilkie,
I think you are probably right, but it is unfair to penalise the rest of the MACR world just because of a few bad ones. Lets face it, if the Officer, Flt Cdr, Sqn Cdr world worked on the same principal, there wouldn't be many of them either would there?

I tend to agree with the Winco when he says that those at the top are not prepared to alllow it to be seen that a MACR can (AND PROBABLY WAS) doing a much better job then the commisioned chap.

Give me a MACR anytime, you at least know where you stand with them, good or bad!

Kind regards
TSM

[roush]

I for one am quite happy with my MACR lot. I'll admit that I walked into Biggen Hill with the hopes and dreams of being a Pilot or worst case a Nav and left wondering what the AEOp trade I had just volunteered for was all about.

Still I have enjoyed just about every moment of my time in the trade. The one drawback that I have is the lack of different postings available to us. Therefore the prospect of an "Empowered Role" sounds great to me. I am not a level 28 Flt Lt so don't expect to be paid as one. I have reached the very top of the NCA rank tree and feel a great deal of personal pride in doing so. I know my pay scales and if i don't like them I can walk. However now that the promotion carrot no longer exists then please give me something that will personally challenge and enthuse me.

We are the top of the tree and as such we should be able to represent our chosen trade. I'm all for a MACR committee to formally voice our united concerns and ideas. If nothing else it will be an excuse to formally get together for a beer twice a year, and make use of some more capped actuals.