Cardiff - "Controller's lunch break delayed landing"

[jetstream7]

Don't normally hang around in here, but spotted this when I was browsing elsewhere and thought you might like a look...
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=16899725%26method=full%26siteid=50082%26headline =controller%2ds%2dlunch%2dbreak%2ddelayed%2dlanding-name_page.html
Shall leave the comments to you chaps who know far more than me. ;)

[Atcham Tower]

The NATS website is currently boasting about "state-of-the-art technology for Cardiff Airport control tower". This obviously doesn't include a commode ...

[flower]

There are only 2 ATCOs available for night duties at Cardiff, this does rather limit things when it comes to breaks.
Not sure if they were fully staffed that night or not but there comes a point when due Scratcoh people have to take breaks.
As for the loos, there used to be two very nicely positioned at the bottom of the tower stairs, then they were taken away from us and turned into storage cupboards. Now if one requires a natural break they have to go to the other end of the building.
I would very much doubt that would be the reason however for the place having to temporarily close, far more likely down to staffing issues or scratcoh

[PPRuNe Radar]

Another piece of journalistic brilliance ..... a lunch break at midnight ???

[Van Der Hum]

Apparently the captain told the punters that "the person qualified to land this plane is on a break". So that would be him and the first officer then. :confused:

How would we manage without the media?

[anotherthing]

Obviously the full story is yet to come out, but both the snippet from the passengers and the journalistic approach are, as usual, indicative of the general publics' lack of knowledge of what an air traffic controller actually does.


From a passenger, a Mr Jones (appropriate for Cardiff)


"In this day and age, that something like this should happen, is just disgusting."


I fully agree, just when are NATS going to supply us with those colostomy bags we asked for when undertaking night duties?!!

Van Der Hum,


Apparently the captain told the punters that "the person qualified to land this plane is on a break". So that would be him and the first officer then.


Or is it pilot code for "the autopilot has broken"!!!

[chevvron]

At my airfield before the days of full 7-day ops (but not 24 hours cos the local council won't allow it) we used to staff weekends with 2 controllers each 9 hour day, taking a 1 hour lunch break in the middle. On saturdays we opened at 8 am and closed at 5 pm, while sundays we opened at 11 am and closed at 8pm. Some operators obviously had difficulty handling that because on one occasion, there were three aircraft holding one sunday morning when we arrived to open up!

[anotherthing]

A cracking faux pas from the Journalist - who eats lunch at 1240am??

[rolaaand]

Hmm. I'm sure the controller timed their break specifically to coincide with the arrival of this aircraft just to be awkward-well that's the spin the media seem to have put on it in the usual jet drama horror tabloid style.
The more likely situation is that there was a staffing problem at EGFF and the controller in question was required BY LAW to take a 30 min. SCRATCOH break. If they had decided to stay plugged in even for a few minutes extra to provide a service for this aircraft,the law would have been broken. If during this time there is an incident directly attributable to the controller who has not taken a fatigue break,the book would be hurled squarely at them. Just my theory so hopefully one of m'colleagues from EGFF can put us right as to what happened. As an aside I seem to remember a similar story hitting the pages of the Scottish red tops a few years ago with an aircraft inbound to one of the western isles. The single controller on duty refused to provide a service until he had completed his SCRATCOH break and the inbound had to hold for half an hour. All legal though.

[Friio4]

Thats the trouble nowdays, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Imagine the headlines if the controller had worked in excess of his/her hours then had an incident.

[FinalVectors]

We have had this situation here in Norway too. Because of staffing problems.
Our company have been f:mad:ing us last years...so people been quitting or moving abroad to work. (and ofcourse they stopped the education as well for 2 years..just to make things worse)
So i.e. Bodø ACC sector south("Old" Trondheim ACC) have to close some hours at night now and then.
But the "fun" will start there later this year. Like it looks now, there will probably only be 4!!??? ATCO's staffing a ACC sector on 24 hours basis.
Which means middle of Norway will be closed most of the week.
Not looking forward to the newspaper headlines. :\

[GM WAN TO BE]

The aircraft in question held for 18 minutes, and from what i can gather this will become the norm during nightshifts at EGFF.....

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

If some of the loonies on this thread worked a few nights they might understand that it is perfectly possible to be eating "lunch" at 2am.

[anotherthing]

HD

This 'loonie' works at TC. This 'loonie' works nights. This loonie may eat something during the night shift, but it is not 'lunch'.

Lunch is a meal at midday, dinner is a meal in the evening, Breakfast - well, thats the meal in the morning that 'breaks' the 'fast' that usually occurs if you sleep all night.

Despite some northern English spin, tea is a mid morning or mid afternoon snack taken at a time other than the above meals.

I don't know what you were trying to prove, all I was saying was lunch at 1240am is not strictly true, and certainly not the correct use of English. Something which a journalist should get correct, even if all the other bull that they print is factually incorrect, or misleading, or speculative.

I'm off for my early morning meal :ok:

[Standard Noise]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that there is another unit in the South West which can provide radar services right through the night. Can't quite remember it's name though!?;)

[clicker]

Whats in a name, I work shifts and we just call it our meal break.

If I'm on a night duty and to aviod the body getting all screwed up, if I get up at in the middle of the afternoon I still have breakfast, dinner will be around 2100hrs and tea when I get home around 0600. Never fancied having a breakfast before going to bed.

[anotherthing]

clicker,

the point I was trying to make was that journos cannot even get the semantics correct, whatever you want to call your early morning meal.

Pedantic yes, semantics, yes, but if they cannot even do that, then what hope is there of a balanced informed piece of reporting about aviation affairs?!!

[Gary Lager]

I can see this starting to creep the thread somewhat, but I consider it exceptionally unprofessional, for precisely the reason demonstrated, to make such a facetious and inaccurate PA to the passengers.

And I would NEVER criticise ATC in public at my home unit, when they're likely to read about it!


Never mind, I'm sure Thomson won't need any favours this summer...

[PPRuNe Radar]

Anotherthing

I'm a fellow loonie, since I agree with your reasoning. It may be a meal or a snack but it certainly isn't lunch (using the Oxford English dictionary version anyway).

Another difference from HD's world is that some of us actually have to work aeroplanes for significant portions of our night shifts. Apart from the beginning and end of shift periods, what exactly DID you do at LHR during a night shift HD ?? :p

[Spitoon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that there is another unit in the South West which can provide radar services right through the night. Can't quite remember it's name though!?;)I,m sure it will come to you if you think hard enough! But it does make you wonder why the unit that can't manage to provide the services all through the night gets to control the overall flow of traffic in that corner of the world....

So, who will get to be in charge of the Severn TMA?

[caaardiff]

Correct me if im wrong but doesnt the article say 'Tea break'....
Whats to say it was a cup of Tea and cigarette break? :p :=
I think this post has gone completely off topic, just for a few jabs at what people interpret as meal time!

Cardiff is hardly over-run with aircraft at this time of night. So unless, as people have mentioned, the person involved was on a required break, and refused point blank to land this one plane until the required time was up, then there must be more to it that isn't for public knowledge.

[PPRuNe Radar]

OK, stand corrected, you're wrong ... :} :p

Look at the link in the first post. The article starts thus:

CONTROLLER'S LUNCH BREAK DELAYED LANDING

Apr 4 2006


Madeleine Brindley, Western Mail


A PILOT told holidaymakers he could not land at Cardiff International Airport because an air traffic controller was on a tea break.

Blah, blah, blah, etc, etc

:ok:

[Warped Factor]

I'm surprised to see HD commenting on nightshifts, didn't think they were in his contract so rare was it to see him on one :\

WF.

[RTB RFN]

Um .... lost track of how many solo night shifts I've done. It sort of worked out, never got damp or hungry and YES there was AD, APP and ENR traffic and often plenty of it. Who gives a rats ar$e what you call a meal break.

[anotherthing]

I don't really give a monkeys what you call your repast at 0040.

What I think the point is, and it should be perfectly clear considering the previous posts, is the standard of reporting on this and other incidents regarding aviation.

My point is that if the Journo cannot even get the semantics correct for the meal, using proper English, then what chance have we of a decently reported piece on aviation... what other 'facts' are incorrect, either semantically or otherwise.

Journalists use the peculiarities of language (English has particularly strange connotations sometimes) to infer something that may not always be a fact. They use this play on words to sell newspapers.

Hence the headline "Controller's lunch break delayed landing" - She couldn't even use the apostrophe correctly whilst trying to senationalise a story....


Therefore it is entirely my right to lambast a journalist for incorrect use of English and then compare it with his or her ability to grasp the basics with his or her ability to grasp concepts of aviation.

Will probably find that the 'journalist' is a product of the plastic (sorry, I mean red brick) 'universities' that specialise in degrees such as Surfing or David Beckham!!:E :E

[Standard Noise]

Beckham gets surfing degree at plastic Uni!
Ooh, that was rather a good headline.

Iwannabeajourno, iwannabeajourno, canidaddy, huh, huh, cani???

Spitoon- unfortunately, come 2300 local, all the delegated airspace down our way reverts to LACC (not so's you'd notice with some of the handovers I get though!;) ) So it matters not that the Taffy Tracon ATCO's go to bed, er sorry, on a break. Still, as long as they're on 30, I can bung'em on their Loc. But they rarely ask. Some day, they'll figure out they could have longer sleeps, er sorry, breaks if they just asked us to help out. I'm up all night anyway, makes no difference to me!

[pilgrims]

A point that i think needs to be made here, is the publics perception/knowledge of duty hours and regulations etc
within the aviation industry. The public are well aware that
pilots have duty hours and restrictions on flying times for flight safety,
but they have no idea that controllers have regulations on the hours we do.
I would be interested to know how many airline pilots are
aware that we too have restrictions on our hours. If we mention
breaks that happen to affect a airline, you don't here the phrase "the guys just doing his job its flight safety " like when a pilot sticks to his
regulations.:

[anotherthing]

Pilgrims

you hit the nail on the head there.... the general public do not have a clue what an ATCO does... apart from wear white overalls and wave two table tennis bats, obviously!! :ok:

[Van Der Hum]

I thought EGFF has two ATCOs on nights and goes procedural at times during the night.

[surface wind]

CAP 670 states,
4.2 By the Provider of Air Traffic Control Services In exceptional circumstances the Provider of Air Traffic Control Services at a unit may
in its discretion modify any Limitation through persons exercising its authority. Such modifications may only be made to overcome short-term, temporary and unforeseen difficulties at the unit and, having regard to the Scheme of Regulation, may only be made if the safety and effectiveness of Air Traffic Control will be maintained. The CAA will require to review the circumstances of each such modification and for this purpose a report and full details of the modification shall be notified in writing, using the form shown in Annex A to Part D, to Air Traffic Standards Department within 24 hours of the modification taking effect.
I think if I was the 'persons exercising its authority', I would have vectored the a/c. What is safer......an a/c going round the hold with 170 people on board.....or an ATCO taking his break, just before the a/c arrives!:hmm:

[rolaaand]

[QUOTE=surface wind] What is safer......an a/c going round the hold with 170 people on board.....or an ATCO taking his break, just before the a/c arrives!

If the controller required a fatigue break then he/she had to take one ,as I have said before this is LAW. Had the controller vectored this aircraft and had an incident with it-perhaps where people on board were injured or worse-then they could be looking at prosecution for negligence and obviously dismissal. Also,regardless of how many people are on board, what is so unsafe about an aircraft holding?

[Spitoon]

surface wind, not that it is really the issue here, I don't think either situation is more or less safe than the other - not to any degree that would count in the risk assessment!

caaardiff, you wouldn't have a vested interest in this would you?

Whatever. The rules actually say "No operational duty shall exceed a period of two hours without there being taken during, or at the end of, that period a break or breaks totalling not less than 30 minutes." Is it really beyond the wit of a NATS unit manager to find some way for a total of 30 mins break is taken during a 2 hour period and not for the 10 minutes around the estimate for the inbound? I guess the only alternative explanation is that the controller is just trying to be difficult or something similar.

On the other hand, isn't this a crazy situation for an aerodrome that is promulgated as H24. And as I don't see any NOTAMs warning of no ATC available I presume it won't happen again.....otherwise it could really make a mess of one's incredibly efficient fuel planning!

[PPRuNe Radar]

What estimate would you be basing your break plan on Spitoon ??

The one from the ACC .... too late, that means the aircraft is about 15 minutes away anyway so the plan you worked out nearly 2 hours ago is now buggered, you're almost out of duty time. :ugh: The DEP message (if you got one) and the FPL elapsed time .... oooops, all those direct routeings over Europe mean the aircraft is going to pitch up 10 minutes earlier than the time you'd planned to return from your break. Just 2 possibilities which could result in an aircraft having to wait for a controller to be legal. Any ATCO could think of many more scenarios.

There is also an assumption that the ATCO wasn't doing anything for the time between starting shift and taking the break, that somehow this break could have been shifted to suit. Or maybe, just maybe, he was controlling aircraft for most of this time and had no leeway to move the break too much, if at all ??

ATCOs, as a breed, like an easy life. They don't like filling in forms or having to explain to someone higher up what they did and why. Especially if there is fallout from airlines and the public. So why would this ATCO open up the floodgates on themselves unless they were given no choice and legally bound to do something ? I reckon they did the right thing and covered their own back ahead of anyone elses. They were there, it is their licence, and they know the facts upon which their decision was based. Had the aircraft situation then changed (emergency, short of fuel, etc), then I have no doubt at all that professional judgement would have been exercised and SRATCOH 'varied' to provide the best service to the aircraft in those circumstances.

[chevvron]

Dep messages would help in this situation by giving a 'ballpark' eta to plan breaks. Pity only some Italian and Russian airfields send them nowadays. Course at my airfield, we sometimes send a 'request dep' if it gets time critical, but I'm not sure if FF could do this.
NB I know they're not officially required under IFPS, but they're bl**dy useful when you do get them!

[Highland Director]

Hence the headline "Controller's lunch break delayed landing" - She couldn't even use the apostrophe correctly whilst trying to senationalise a story....

anotherthing - Whilst I agree with everything you wrote regarding the poor journalisim, I think the use of the aposrophe in the headline was absolutely correct. :)
If she is assuming that there is one air traffic controller taking a lunch break, then the apostrophe has been correctly used to denote possession. :ok:

[anotherthing]

Highland Director -

My mis interpretation - I took it that there was more than one controller - You are correct if the assumption is one controller!!

I am Scottish, as I presume are you... two Scotsmen discussing the intricacies of English Grammar - must still be a better education system up there!!!

[Highland Director]

Highland Director -
My mis interpretation - I took it that there was more than one controller - You are correct if the assumption is one controller!!
I am Scottish, as I presume are you... two Scotsmen discussing the intricacies of English Grammar - must still be a better education system up there!!!
I am indeed a fellow Scot. Sadly, the education system north of the border is going downhill in my opinion. :{ It's for that reason that I left it to become an ATCO. :) Controlling is certainly much less stressful than teaching these days!
Maybe we've gone a little off topic here......:}

[Spitoon]

Controlling is certainly much less stressful than teaching these days!Ah, but have you tried teaching someone to be an ATCO!:ugh:

[makeapullup]

HD

This 'loonie' works at TC. This 'loonie' works nights. This loonie may eat something during the night shift, but it is not 'lunch'.

Lunch is a meal at midday, dinner is a meal in the evening, Breakfast - well, thats the meal in the morning that 'breaks' the 'fast' that usually occurs if you sleep all night.

Despite some northern English spin, tea is a mid morning or mid afternoon snack taken at a time other than the above meals.

I don't know what you were trying to prove, all I was saying was lunch at 1240am is not strictly true, and certainly not the correct use of English. Something which a journalist should get correct, even if all the other bull that they print is factually incorrect, or misleading, or speculative.

I'm off for my early morning meal :ok:


Ever been for an all day breakfast? Now what!

[Rage]

Anotherthing
I'm a fellow loonie, since I agree with your reasoning. It may be a meal or a snack but it certainly isn't lunch (using the Oxford English dictionary version anyway).
Another difference from HD's world is that some of us actually have to work aeroplanes for significant portions of our night shifts. Apart from the beginning and end of shift periods, what exactly DID you do at LHR during a night shift HD ?? :p

PPRuNe Radar

On my last night shift at LHR this week I had between one and three police helicopters on frequency for all but 15 minutes of the six hours I spent in situ.
This is now commonplace as all of the three forces airborne support units which operate in or around the LTMA are now 24/7 and most criminal activity tends to take place at night.......