Report your Heading to London 129.???

[Stand them up!]

Question to you helpful girls and guys on the ground.
Various situations
Yesterday, we were level @FL320 coming back to Luton from Dublin talking to London and was asked to contact London on 12...... with the Heading which I did. (Flying a Heading directed by the controller)
"London (callsign) Heading 120" only to be shot down in flames by my fellow crew member about the fact that I should state FL, Heading and next waypoint.
To be fair being fairly new to flying at high levels and with this being first commercial job my RT when I started was pretty dam awfull. But also used to saying 3400 feet on 996 etc. I never really went above FL100 so the FL RT time was limited.
Second situation
"London (callsign) passing FL20 climbing FL250 DCT GWC"
Yes I know got that wrong and ATC never questioned the FL20 which should have been FL200. It is just that every time I make what I believe a minor mistake my Trainning Captain blows me out of the water. Which of course doesn't give much confidence in my own ability to get it right every time.
I know it is very important to get it right every time and ATC are great if you get yourself in a pickle.
I did check CAP413 and can not find anything on Reporting heading.
What do you think on?
A. The heading issue?
B. My stupid error on the FL20 as oppose to FL200?
Cheers
Stand Them Up!

[danceswithsheep]

Stand,
On first contact, we need callsign(you would be surprised how often we get "hello"!), FL and next waypoint. If you are given a heading or speed, the controller will normally tell you to report it as to help out the next sector.

[ukatco_535]

As DanceswithSheep says.

If you do not tell us you are on a heading, we may not notice... you may have been on your own nav to the next waypoint when the controller locked you on, to enable a climb through of another aircraft.

In that situation, if you did not report that you were indeed on an assigned heading, even using predict vectors, we would not know!!

Basically, what the controller told you to do is an instruction; and it helps us out.

I have had A/C running towards Biggin etc in the past that have been on a heading without reporting it, and only being a few degrees of the correct track. Thay are level separated from my other A/C in Biggin, but if they sail through the holding area without my knowledge, they will make a hell of a noise when they meet another A/C at the same level in th eLambourne hold, which I am not controlling!

Fortunatley most A/C report that they are still on a heading just before the hold, so that prevents some headaches, but Some operators (or more accurately, pilots) say nothing and just sail trhough.

You are correct in what you state is in the manuals, but your training captain is also correct, if not a little over zealous!!


As for the FL20 -your error in saying the wrong thing - but mistakes happen.

The controller was in the wrong for not double checking. It may have been that they misheard you or just assumed you meant FL200. Mishearing is understandable on increasingly busy frequencies, if it was an assumption on the controllers part, it is bad practice.

It's a team game, we all make mistakes, hopefully we can help each other when we do :ok:

[renard]

On the first point, you surely wouldn't say your next waypoint, as you are not going to one, you are on a heading.

On the second one, don't beat yourself up to much. Ladt night I was told "Fly heading one zero zero degrees" - I'm sure I'm read back"Heading one zero zero zero degrees". I wish I hadn't done it but I'm sure the controller didn't expect us to doa couple of orbits.

[Stand them up!]

Thanks Chaps / Chapsss
Sorry to Clarify,
I was on Vectored Heading and Level at FL320
I was told to report heading to London which I did together with my callsign.
Is that correct Heading and Call sign?
The Captain bollocked me for not saying next waypoint and flight level. But as I was on Vectors how can I report next waypoint. I may have been parrallel to the next waypoint at that point!
See my problem.
Oh and callsign goes with out saying. I am surprised that us pilots forget that bit. Is it common then?
I agree regarding the incorrect FL side and yes you are correct it was busy on that Freq.:}

[danceswithsheep]

Stand, If you are assigned a heading, thats what you report, not the next waypoint. Add your FL and thats what we need.
As was explained, if we miss the heading info, we think you are on standard routing and you may end up missing a hold or important turning point.

[tonto mackenzie]

Personally I would expect a pilot to report callsign, followed by level or any level instructions then the heading and would not anticipate any waypoint report if you were on a heading. but thats just my view.

[Sleeping]

If you want "chapter and verse" on this topic it's written in the UK AIP as a note to En-Route 1.1.1. You can view the AIP at www.ais.org - you have to register but it's free and there's some very interesting and useful stuff there. Particularly in the AIC section. To save you looking, the note says, and I quote:
Note: When changing frequency between any of the London Control, Scottish Control or Manchester Control Centres, pilots are required to state their callsign and Flight Level/Altitudes only (plus any other details when specifically instructed by ATC).
When the aircraft is in level flight but cleared to another FL/ALT, both FL/ALT should be passed. Similarly, when the aircraft is not in level flight, the pilot should state the FL/ALT through which the aircraft is passing and the FL/ALT to which it is cleared.
I'd be interested to hear any comments from controllers on this requirement as we pilots (me included) often include next waypoint (if not on a heading) as well as flight level although this does not appear to be nescessary - eg "London FastAir123 direct Deans Cross Flight level 230"
ps I'm a Training Captain on big Boeings - but not the guy mentioned above!!

[SM4 Pirate]

I believe your call should have been:

1.) "London, Midsizejet123, maintaining FL320 heading XXX" (there is no next waypoint until told to resume your own nav)

2.) **** happens, mode C x checking, the ATC probably 'knew' what you meant so didn't follow it up or just didn't care about the error you made as you gave the important info, level assigned and next point.

Best info I can give when training, do it the way they want... then when you get it, your experience will get you through. Intentional non compliance is very different to making an error.

The concept of readbacks and reporting is "fail safe" (although it does go wrong too), i.e. if you didn't say what I wanted to hear then I'm going to follow it up, and vice versa.

[Gary Lager]

If on the filed flight plan route on your own nav, then reporting your next waypoint is unnecessary, not required by the AIP and uses up RT time. Even more so when, as so many do, is one gets confused about which waypoint is next (particularly when on a heading) and spend what seems like 5 minutes saying "direct SALCO, no BHD, oops sorry on heading 195 etc etc).

Callsign, and cleared FL (or current FL if level), as sleeping states. (or the special case after departue on first contact with a radar unit)

Training Captains should not be 'b*ll*cking' for minor transgressions on the RT, they should be training you to do it right. Sounds lke you lucked out with this chap, am sure things will improve with time and experience.

I know I sound a stuck record on this forum, but have you visited your local ATS unit for a chat and a coffee with the folks there yet? Invaluable for all pilots, especially those new to commerical flying.

[Stand them up!]

Thanks for all the feedback, Most helpfull in many ways.
You are right about the Training Captain further more he was on the radio the other day and made quite a few cock ups, so nobody is perfect.

Regard the trip to a ATS unit yes, funny that. I am currently arranging it with some fellow Pilots for next week.
When I started with the company I was very lucky to go to Swanick but I was very green then.
It was very impressive, looked like a big game of Pacman. I found it interesting the amount of co-ordination / phone calls you have to make for the hand over. And on that point that is the whole reason why I started the thread in the first place.

Cheers

Stand them Up!

[fireflybob]

If your training captain wants to foster the right atmosphere on the flight deck and set a good example with respect to cockpit resource management then he needs to modify his approach!

As one who was a training captain for several years I found that little was achieved by bawling one's trainee out for making a mistake. It was far more productive to make little comment in flight (unless of course flight safety was immediately compromised) and to carry out a thorough and thoughtful debrief when on the ground.

There is a difference between somebody who is trying to do the job properly and perhaps makes the odd omission and the other type (very rare in my experience) who doesn't give a damn about the correct procedures. The two situations call for entirely different instructional techniques.