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biminiflyer
29th Mar 2006, 13:58
get a load of this

just heard from a mate that a A320 routing liverpool to derry has landed at ballykelly airport rather than derry:eek: !!
Aircraft operating on behalf of Ryanair due to lack of crews at Ryanair.Should be interesting getting out of there from a performance point of view:{ landed safely pax being bussed to other side of the lough(derry)

bf

shuttle4zulu
29th Mar 2006, 14:03
I wouldn't call EGQB an Airport, don't think a fixed wing has landed there in years.

Its about 5 miles east of EGAE.

A few red faces me thinks:uhoh:

flowman
29th Mar 2006, 14:11
I seem to remember they used to fly C130s in there until quite recently.
What was the guy in the tower looking at?
I see in Flight International they have a vacancy at EGAE at the moment, could be another one soon!

ETOPS
29th Mar 2006, 14:15
What was the guy in the tower looking at?


Er - what were the crew looking at? There's at least 40 degrees difference in runway alignment to start with..........

booke23
29th Mar 2006, 14:19
Flew in to Londonderry a few times and I have to say, I'm surprised someone hasn't put down in ballykelly by mistake before now.

The approach onto runway 26 is almost perfectly aligned with the old runway at ballykelly.....albeit ballykelly is about 5 miles from the 26 threshold. To add to the confusion Ballykelly sometimes has its runway lights on.

I can imagine that a NDB approach in marginal conditions could easily end up with a crew unfamiliar with the area mis-identifying Ballykelly.

shuttle4zulu
29th Mar 2006, 14:31
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4857962.stm

flowman
29th Mar 2006, 14:32
Strong prevailing winds in N.I. mean most runways are likely to point the same way.
EGAA has Nutts corner and Langford Lodge in close proximity with similar runway alignment. At least two aircraft have landed at Langford by mistake, one of which I seem to remember was a DC9 which turned around and took off again! The other was an HS748.
I myself saw another 748 lining up nicely to land at Nutts Corner and had to intervene, it was a fairly regular event to have to verify to pilots on a VOR approach to 07 that EGAA was the next one along from EGAL.
Hazards such as those should be well known to the Tower Controller, surely he should be on the lookout especially when crews unfamiliar with the area are making an approach. I'm not saying it's his fault, but he should be one more factor that should prevent that happening. I think EGAE only have about 12 scheduled movements a day so I think they can afford the time to look out of the window.

wg13_dummy
29th Mar 2006, 14:39
I can imagine that a NDB approach in marginal conditions could easily end up with a crew unfamiliar with the area mis-identifying Ballykelly.


True but conditions here today are 8/8ths blue all the nines. Be interesting to find out why he misidentified Eglington. Surely his ILS would have been monitored even in CAVOK?

Lucky to have stopped in time and lucky the resident battalion wasnt running round the airfield!

biminiflyer
29th Mar 2006, 14:43
little bit more info coming in
there was an aircraft calibrating the ILS at the time(derry),the guys n the 320 were cleared for a visual right hand downwind went overhead and went to the wrong rwy/fiel the calibration of the ILS had evryone busy that should have been watching out i guess? not trying to make excuses just trying to understand what went on

bf

flowman
29th Mar 2006, 14:44
My experience is that it's more likely to happen in good weather conditions.
Pilot doing a visual approach, not all the runway lights on, he sees a runway and goes for it.
Its probably not going to happen from an ILS approach in grotty weather with the full christmas tree lit up.

172 driver
29th Mar 2006, 14:44
Ryaniar website currently says FR9884 "Diverted to Ballykelly due to technical fault".

I wonder what sort of technical fault?

booke23
29th Mar 2006, 14:46
If established on the ILS then I'd say it would be very difficult to confuse the airfields.......perhaps he followed the procedure downwind (don't think they have radar at EGAE), reported visual (with wrong airfield) and was granted a visual approach?

From then on the "tunnel vision" effect could take over to make the mistake difficult to spot.

johnref
29th Mar 2006, 14:57
Obviously not related to this story but made me chuckle given the advice they are giving their pasengers

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=06&month=mar&story=gen-en-150306

Story title - Don't go to the wrong airport

(not a Ryanair bash - just a post on something to make us chuckle):O

Atcham Tower
29th Mar 2006, 15:08
Condolences to the Eirjet crew. Confusing Ballykelly with Eglinton is horribly easy to do, particularly as the 08/26 runway was once capable of supporting dispersed V-bomber ops and is still 2,000 m plus, I believe. The tower controller really should have been aware of the possibility of confusion but it's easy to criticise with hindsight. Ballykelly with its big hangars and runway probably must show up much better that Derry/Eglinton.

BitMoreRightRudder
29th Mar 2006, 15:15
Agree with Atcham Tower. Condolences more appropriate than wishing them well with a job search which is a bit off - they made a mistake, and we are all capable of doing that.

flowman
29th Mar 2006, 15:17
From the BBC news (Northern Ireland) website:

Ryanair said in a statement it was due to an "error by the Eirjet pilot who mistakenly believed he was on a visual approach to City of Derry airport".

The 39 passengers were taken by coach from Ballykelly to the airport.

In its statement, Ryanair said it had notified the aviation authorities in the UK and Ireland of the incident.

"We have also asked Eirjet, the operator of the aircraft to carry out a full investigation into this matter, as in over seven years of Ryanair flights into City of Derry airport, and over 20 years of Ryanair-operated flights, such a mistake has never occurred before," it added.

Chutney
29th Mar 2006, 15:23
Oh dear, how short corporate memory can be.

In the days, pre MOL, Ryanair aircraft developed a fascinating and repeated affinity for the old disused Speke airport serving Liverpool. Lads in the tower made a few saves and the Rombac boys gave it a late bit of right hand down a bit to save the day and make it back home to Romania with a VCR under each arm.

Pip, Pip

tonylollo
29th Mar 2006, 15:24
Oh my dont you just love it :confused: :confused:


Ryanair flight lands at wrong airfield in Northern Ireland
(29Mar06 16:27 GMT)

An aircraft operating a Ryanair flight has landed by mistake at a
virtually disused army airfield in Northern Ireland.

Ryanair refuses to comment, but a Police Service of Northern Ireland
spokesman says the aircraft landed at Ballykelly airfield, known locally
as Shackleton Barracks, at 14:47 today instead of its intended
destination of nearby Derry/Londonderry.

The exact flight is not known, but unconfirmed suggestions are that it
had come from Liverpool in England, which is consistent with it being
Ryanair flight 9884 due at Derry at 14:25.

The police spokesman at nearby Limavady says: “They are trying to find
steps to get the passengers off and then they are going to bus the
passengers to Derry. Apparently it’s too heavy to take off again while
it’s loaded so they are going to fly it out when the passengers are
off.”

The spokesman was unable to confirm the identity of the aircraft,
although another unconfirmed report suggests it is an Airbus A320 of
Irish carrier Eirjet operating on behalf of Ryanair, which has an
all-Boeing 737 fleet of its own.

Ballykelly is lightly used by UK Army Air Corps and RAF helicopters and
as a sport airfield.

Derry charts warn pilots against the risk of confusion between the two
airfields. Derry has a 5,480ft (1,670m) runway, 08/26, with precision
approach path indicators (PAPI) on 26, and an ILS/DME. Ballykelly

Pigsfly
29th Mar 2006, 15:41
25 Minute turnarounds!
Insufficient time for proper briefings due to 45 Minute reporting times!

I have been to Derry many many times. But do not agree its easy to mistake Ballykelly for it.

What about your radio aids and GPS as back up guys/gals.

Anyway thank god no one injured.

escapedATCO
29th Mar 2006, 15:53
:ugh: Sorry to report I saw the incident happen and also heard it on the radio. The A320 crew elected to go around after losing the ILS signals and asked for circuit details. From a viewing position west of Eglinton I saw the A320 turned downwind RH at EGQB(I believe the pilot said he thought he was to high to land but he looked perfect to me i.e. wrong airfield). The radio at EGAE got rather involved on the servicablity of the ILS:{ and the controller annouced he was listening( on an Icom) to the ident though it could not be recognised. The Calibrater was holding at 15miles east and all the lights were on even the flashing lead in approach lights. The A320 turned tight base at Ballykelly and then disappeared from my view. The controller asked for a DME and pilot reported on the ground. He landed on 26 at EGQB stopping just short of the railway line that crosses the runway.

Unfortunate error or lots of errors I am afraid.

The Right Stuff
29th Mar 2006, 16:04
I was listening to ATC too:

ATC: "confirm your DME"
Eirjet: "we're on the ground"
ATC: "you've landed at Ballykelly"
Eirjet: "I know"

:eek:

Flap40
29th Mar 2006, 16:07
Looking at the VFR chart there is also another disused airfield at Limavady about 3nm east of Ballykelly. It could be that this was not marked on the ils plate but Ballykelly is (with the note) and he avoided Limavady and landed at the next airfield???

just a theory.

Kestrel_909
29th Mar 2006, 16:30
I think the other field you mention is Bellarena, mainly gliding. If anyone confused it for EGAE or Ballykelly then I do seriously wonder! The green surfaced runway is a dead give away :D

Ballykelly has

03/21 2000yds x 50yds Concrete (1830x45m, hardly unusual looking from the air?)
08/26 2000yds x 50yds Concrete
15/33 1100yds x 50yds Concrete

Getting it back out again shouldn't be much of a problem if that length is available and I can't think of any significant obstabcles around either, though I admit I am not very familar with the area.

Anyway, off to watch it on BBC Newsline now.

Edit: I best make it clear that I meant no significant obstacles from runway 26 at Ballykelly. Those of you who have just seen it on the news will have noticed the large hill in the background to the east of the field!! :D

Flap40
29th Mar 2006, 16:47
I think the other field you mention is Bellarena,

No. It is marked on the chart as Limavady and it is shown as disused. it is also (as I said) 3nm east of Ballykelly and has a runway in line with Ballykelly and Derry. Bellarena is shown as 5nm NNE of Balykelly.

Flap40
29th Mar 2006, 17:15
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~jodel/photos/BK.jpg
Should give an Idea for those that don't know the area.

toolonggone
29th Mar 2006, 17:57
Maybe so...but when the industry is all about reputation, certainly doesn't help. What if Ballykelly had been like Langford Lodge which is alongside EGAA and landed on runway in a state of disrepair...that's were the problem lies. OK...everybody makes mistakes but if such a rudimentary error happens then people are entitled to make that assumption .

db7
29th Mar 2006, 17:59
Little of Limavady airport is left - it is now an industrial estate. What little is left of the runway is a carpark. It would be difficult to confuse this from the air

Flap40
29th Mar 2006, 18:39
Little of Limavady airport is left - it is now an industrial estate. What little is left of the runway is a carpark. It would be difficult to confuse this from the air

I'm not so sure. Have a look at Google Earth (even if it is a couple of years old). If you are told not to land at the disused airfield in the undershoot but no mention is made that there is a third (very disused) field you can see the potential for a c0ck-up.

brain fade
29th Mar 2006, 18:40
When I was stationed at Ballykelly, I decided to drive my landrover down the runway at top speed to see how fast it would go. I magine my surprise when I hit a pronounced ramp which crossed the rwy at 90 degrees. My landie immediately got airborne, landing so violently that the spare was released from the bonnet and went bounding off across the airfield.
I think they had laid pipework or cables right across the runway, protected by this large hump.
Presumably they must have landed on a different runway as this one really isn't/ wasn't fit for use!

blackmail
29th Mar 2006, 20:03
hello everyone,

it is a very unfortunate event indeed. but instead of jumping into the blame game & firing all involved, which would be stupid to do, i' m much more interested to know why it did & could happen & what corrective measures to put in place to prevent it to reoccur. seems to be a problem of situational awareness/complacency. in this case, i suspect, murphy had again his way. we will never be able to defeat this guy completely, but the aim to do so should never be given up.if i were the chiefpilot, i would have a thorough debrief with the crew, seek mental counceling for them so that they get over it as quick as possible & protect them from irrational management & authorities, if required. organise some retraining if needed. i would try to dedramatise this as much as possible.
i think in this category, landing at wrong airports , unintentional gear up landings, ground collisions etc... . there are only two sorts of pilots: they who already did it, or they, who are going to do it some day or night.
however, no stone should be left unturned, in order to reduce such incidents from happening. although difficult, ego & pride loss should not be unsurmountable. always try to retain some positive out of a negative mishap.

Glass Half Empty
29th Mar 2006, 20:29
I think most of us who have been around aviation long enough, or short enough for that matter, have been in a situation wher rushing has potetially led to a serious error. In most cases something occurs to break the final event however in this case it did not. There are many of us who are thankful for that last chance, so be more generous when castigating these guys. Those who cannot see the similarity with ther own life experiences are either stupid or been around 5 minutes!!

Sven Sixtoo
29th Mar 2006, 20:46
Pilot unsure of indications threw approach away.

Tick vg

Went round, found runway, landed.

All safe

Tick vg.

Large amounts of debrief about non-critical errors.

And yes I believe landing on the wrong runway is of itself non critical.

Now if there had been a Lynx halfway down the strip ...



Sven

Oilhead
29th Mar 2006, 20:59
Does the 320 "eat the runway" when you go around using TOGA?, i.e. does the approach or runway need to be reloaded?

PhoenixRising
29th Mar 2006, 21:01
RTE News have a report and video footage here (http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/2128021.smil). Link will only be valid for a few hours.

morton.c.a
29th Mar 2006, 21:04
Just posted...

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/chrismorton/RYANAIRAD.jpg

Wondered how long the persuit of cheap landing fees would take...

escapedATCO
29th Mar 2006, 21:08
Few inaccuracies above Limavady is still identifable from the air, big problem although all airbourne traffic are controlled by Eglinton those on the ground are not, the military train on the runway and drive vehicles across without control but the major problem was that a train was due around this time and track crosses runway 26. The crew were unaware of the fence and just stopped and turned around short of it. Also there is not alot of the old runway retarred and marked out (about 1200m).

I think the a/c departed of 20 (1800m) tonight about 2030. Personally speaking the crew are at fault but they are not the only ones to do this ask the Irish Air Corp and also what was ??? doing in the tower it was obvious this a/c joined the wrong circuit and final approach.:sad:

sky9
29th Mar 2006, 21:40
Well
I suppose that it's closer to Derry than some of their other flights are to their published destinations.

Wonder if they charged for the coach trip?

FlyingV
29th Mar 2006, 22:42
http://dparker.net/pictures/eirjet_quicky.jpg

:}

SIDSTAR
30th Mar 2006, 03:52
Blackmail has it absolutely right. Murphy is alive and well and lurking in aviation. There are those who have done it and those who ... The unfortunate crew involved will take some time to get over it hopefully with the help of the company. Debrief, possible some refresher training to satisfy the Feds, a line check and back to work.

Of course it is easy to comment from 20/20 hindsight that this should have been done and that should have been done. Have everything switched on, check runway alignment etc etc. However, nobody was hurt, it's embarrassing for Eirjet and the crew but no more than that.

However, the quoted press release from Ryanair is cringe-inducing "in 20 years of Ryanair operated flights we've never had ..etc". If ever there was an invite to Murphy to wake up, that's one! I seem to recall the "Cork Ploughing Championships" and the afore-mentioned attempt to land on the old 26 at LPL (both by Tarom crews working for Ryanair, I believe), not to mention some recent events well reported here on Pprune. Ryanair has an excellent safety record, mainly due to the professionalism of their pilots. However, don't tempt fate, Mick. Your friend Murphy lurks in the long grass and has great patience.

ORAC
30th Mar 2006, 04:25
The Times: ....Brian Mather, an Australian who lives in Sligo, said that the soldiers treated the passengers very well...... Some of the soldiers came on board and laughingly welcomed us to their international airport. There was no panic among the passengers, but I think the cockpit crew might be panicking a bit,” he said........

BL
30th Mar 2006, 06:11
I reckon this is a lot easier to do than people imagine.

I think involves less danger than people imagine too.

...although Eilat and Aqaba cld b interesting (and v close)

145qrh
30th Mar 2006, 06:19
It happened a few years ago on a Loganair Twin Otter, guy got sacked because he tried to cover it, he took off and then re-landed at Londonderry, City of Derry, Eglinton Airport( dont want to upset either side)...:mad:

escapedATCO
30th Mar 2006, 07:04
Mistake is easy to make at Eglinton the pilot was only one of 2 a/c in the sky at the time and he was also given an instruction to keep the circuit tight to avoid the train passing the threshold at Eglinton.

This was avoidable the pilot made a mistake and flew a visual circuit at the wrong airfield. There was a slight hail shower to the NW of EGAE at the time but about 40km vis in the direction of final approach. Over the years many a/c have been saved from this mistake by controllers at EGAE however this one was plain to see. I think the controller concerned got distracted by trying to get the ILS fixed for the next calibration run. The crews had their eyes out of the cockpit flying a tricky vis approach, base leg was between the airfield and the high ground to the east and he was on tight base below the level of it, not an approach were you would have time to recheck your instruments I think.

parkfell
30th Mar 2006, 08:24
Without in anyway wishing to prejudice the inquiry, I have two simple questions:

1. Had the airbus been "cleared to land"? Yes or No

2. If yes, was this issued without the ATCO seeing the aircraft on final?


The CRM Pilot / ATCO interface will be worth discussing once the facts are established, and the AAIB report is published.

There but for the grace of God go I :hmm:

oldlag53
30th Mar 2006, 08:42
it's a shame that RYR are getting all the blame in the media; no blame rests on them at all. I recently flew on an Eirjet A320 from LDY to LPL, and the cockpit door was banging to and fro the whole flight. The hosties kept trying to shut it, but it wouldn't catch. Didn't look very impressive from a passenger point of view...

5150
30th Mar 2006, 08:49
They made a statement saying that safety wasn't comprimised but I'd be interested to know what the Fire Category is at the 'wrong' airport.......

CAT3A
30th Mar 2006, 09:22
In Derry is just above limits (I remember holding for the firemen to show up) years ago so with that in mind I can imagine what the fire category was at that time at the wrong airport

Speed of Sound
30th Mar 2006, 09:48
it's a shame that RYR are getting all the blame in the media; no blame rests on them at all.

Ultimately (and legally) it does. The passengers have a contract with Ryanair, NOT Eirjet. If this incident had led to any injuries or worse, it would be Ryanair as the ticket seller, that would be paying out any compensation. (Of course they would then try to claim that back by sueing Eirjet!)

If Ryanair wasn't such a bloody awful outfit, I think this incident would be attracting more sympathy and less piss-taking.

SoS

kriss1000
30th Mar 2006, 10:33
Dos`nt this say it all

UK AIP LONDONDERRY/EGLINTON (8 Jul 04) AD 2-EGAE-1-7


Civil Aviation Authority AMDT 7/04


1 Aerodrome Regulations


a All aircraft using this aerodrome or its facilities are required to have third party liability insurance cover in the sum of £1,000,000. Proof of this

insurance should be available for inspection.
b This aerodrome may only be used whilst ATC and RFFS facilities are being provided.
c Aircraft unable to communicate by radio are subject to ATC approval.
d The use of this aerodrome is subject to the published terms and conditions of use and Airport Byelaws, a copy of which is available on request.
e Aircraft departing and arriving from and to destinations outside of Northern Ireland are required to use the main terminal building for Customs,
Immigration and Special Branch clearances, as appropriate.
f Flight crews are reminded that the ramp is a 24 hour mandatory high visibility clothing area. All flight crews are to wear high visibility clothing
for all ramp activities (including aircraft walk-arounds).
g Nose-in parking is the preferred method of parking all aircraft of more than 5700 kg MTOW. Requests for into wind parking should be made
to ATC. ATC will arrange a remote into wind parking area. Passengers will be transferred by bus to the terminal building where appropriate.

2 Ground Movement.
Not applicable.


3 CAT II/III Operations.
Not applicable.


4 Warnings


a No ground signals except light signals.

b Agricultural work takes place on the grass areas periodically throughout the year.
c Pilots are warned of the presence of large congregations of sea-birds in the approach area to Runway 26 (take-off area for Runway 08). There
is a constant bird hazard on the surrounding terrain and tidal mud flats adjacent to the aerodrome, which can increase at short notice as
concentrations of migratory birds move through the area.
d Pilots are reminded of the close proximity of Ballykelly 5 nm to the east-north-east of this aerodrome. Ballykelly runway lighting may be
observed from the final approach to Runway 26. Pilots of aircraft en-route and in the circuit should positively identify Londonderry/Eglinton
before committing the aircraft to landing.
e Single-engined aircraft should avoid overflying a chemical plant 2 to 3 nm west of the aerodrome below 1500 ft.
f In conditions of moderate or heavy rain, particularly associated with a southerly wind, pilots are advised that temporary puddles may occur on
Runway 02/20.
g A single-track railway passes through the undershoot area of Runway 26 with up to 14 train movements per day. Aircraft will not be permitted
to land on Runway 26 or depart Runway 08 from 5 minutes before the passage of a train until the train is past. Aircraft may experience
approach delays of up to 10 minutes where movements conflict with the passage of a train.

5 Helicopter Operations.
Not applicable.


6 Use of Runways


a In calm wind conditions Runway 08 is the preferred departure runway and Runway 26 is the preferred arrival runway.

b To minimise damage to the runway porous friction course on Runway 08/26, aircraft required to turn on the runway must use the maximum
available turning circle consistent with the runway width. Additionally, speed must be kept to a minimum consistent with good aviation practice.
Wheel locking must be avoided during turns.

7 Training


a Use of the aerodrome for training purposes is subject to the following:

i Training is not permitted between the hours of 2359 and 0700 local;
ii a booking system operates for instrument training. Training periods can be booked by application to ATC. Filing of a flight plan does not
constitute a booking and failure to make a booking may result in the aircraft being refused use of the facilities. Pilots are to inform ATC
of booking cancellations;
iii circuit training is only available by prior arrangement with ATC;
iv circuit direction for all training aircraft will be varied by ATC for air traffic and noise nuisance avoidance purposes.

EGAE AD 2.20 – LOCAL TRAFFIC REGULATIONS

Agaricus bisporus
30th Mar 2006, 10:56
kriss, yes, it does say it all, but...

Do you suppose they carry a UK AIP in an Irish registered airliner (or any other one, for that matter?)

Does anyone ever read the AIP notes for the airfields they visit/may visit? How would they obtain a UK AIP in Eire? Their Ops dept sure as hell wouldn't have one!

Much more relevant is how this was depicted in the approach plates they were using - maybe someone knows which type Eirjet use and can post a copy here?

Speed of Sound
30th Mar 2006, 11:28
This thread has just been shown on the BBC News! :rolleyes:

SoS

Mariner9
30th Mar 2006, 12:00
This thread has just been shown on the BBC News! :rolleyes:
SoS

Mr Atcham Tower, you are now famous. Your condolences to the crew were aired for all to see. (Well all BBC news viewers that is :ok: )

BitMoreRightRudder
30th Mar 2006, 12:18
You could just make out my username. I'm off to brag in jetblast.

JohnnyRocket
30th Mar 2006, 12:44
Yeah - it was a nice report by Denis Murray wasn't it!

Nice to see the forum getting a mention! For those that missed it, you can catch it on the BBC News website http://news.bbc.co.uk/ click on video on the right hand side. It's also repeated on News 24 every hour too.

DrKev
30th Mar 2006, 12:59
From the Irish independant online, posted this morning...



Eirjet urged not to sack pilots over Derry blunder

10:46 Thursday March 30th 2006


The British Airline Pilots Association is urging the Co Clare-based airline Eirjet not to sack the two pilots who mistakenly landed a passenger plane at a military base in the North yesterday.

The pilots were supposed to land the Ryanair-chartered flight from Liverpool at the City of Derry Airport.

However, they touched down instead on an airstrip at the Ballykelly military base five miles away, apparently believing that they were on a visual approach to Derry.

Eirjet has apologised for the incident, which is under investigation by the British authorities.

The BALPA, meanwhile, said lessons had to be learned, but the incident was a simple human error and the two pilots should not be sacked as a result.

HarryErr
30th Mar 2006, 13:05
Incidents/ Accidents happen from a chain of errors, and breaking it at any point would have avoided the result.
I do sympathise with the flight crew to an extent, as I'm sure they realise the seriousness - despite a normal landing, with no injuries - and are very much aware of their responsibilities as flight crew.

aeropers
30th Mar 2006, 13:30
Those who remember the 23 approach into Heathrow will recall seeing a big 'NO' painted on a gas tank close to Northolt, which lay close to the centre line. Might be an idea to paint a big 'NO!' at some other places?

Nov71
30th Mar 2006, 13:31
BBc said runway built for V-bombers, so 10-12,000ft? on same heading as Derry r/w
Easy mistake, all Ryanair pilots conditioned to head for the remote out of town airfields.

lifesabeech
30th Mar 2006, 13:43
I know it has happened a couple of times in the past, notably loganair. I have flown from eglinton a lot and have had students wrongly identifying Ballykelly, but they were students with low hours. If you look at the approach for 26 it is over the water for the last couple of miles, ballykelly aint.There are too many wrong signals for a professional crew to make this mistake in my mind. I flew into eglinton a few weeks ago with a f/o who hadnt been there before, and yes he saw ballykelly and said that don't look right. He then remembered the approach brief, you do look at your plates even when visual don't you? An unfortunate incident which could have been avoided.

squeaker
30th Mar 2006, 13:56
The controllers at Aldergrove (a fine body of men and women BTW) used to ask if you were "aware of the position of Langford Lodge aerodrome" when you were making an approach to 07, is there a similar procedure at Londonderry?

Nick NOTOC
30th Mar 2006, 14:07
Let's review this a bit.
The pilots did not intent to make the mistake, so between their intentions and the outcome something happened. This something by definition can happen to anyone of us, the likelyhood of it happening more then one at tha same time is rather small, but the fact that it happened to the Eirjet crew is the proof of it being possible.
It would however be of great importance to know why it happened, so that we may all learn and not find ourselfs in a similar situation. Anyone using this forum to blame the crew is not only unfair, but equally stu... because it can happen to anyone of us, given the "right" circumstances.

Nick

flowman
30th Mar 2006, 14:08
Squeaker.
I think that phraseology was added after the Danair 748 landed at Langford Lodge.
"Is there a similar procedure at Londonderry?" I bet there is now!

fireflybob
30th Mar 2006, 14:45
Lets remember that all incidents/accidents are caused by a chain of circumstances rather than one isolated factor. Like the proverbial block of cheese its when all the holes line up that it all goes pear-shaped.

Whilst I am sure some "errors" were made on the flightdeck, this crew has all my sympathy. There have been many occasions over the years where aircraft have landed at the "wrong" airport, Sharjah and Dubai spring immediately to mind. It is too easy to brand "pilot error" as the cause since any incident is a product of the "system".

The investigators will no doubt look at all the circumstances surrounding this incident - no pilot has any intention to land at the wrong airport - perhaps there have been some "near misses" which have not been reported (not necessarily by eirjet) in the past.

Kestrel_909
30th Mar 2006, 14:48
Anytime 07 is in use at Aldergrove, Langord Lodge is mentioned in the ATIS and 07 remains lighted all the time. I don't believe LDY has an ATIS to include it in though.

ZICODIAN
30th Mar 2006, 15:23
Hi all,

as usual, it seems a number of factors contributed to this incident (ILS, train passing, tight circuit, shower). Thankfully it did not go from being an incident to an accident. It would have been a good idea to check GPS coordinates. Does anyone know if the airbus was cleared to land? While I would assume it was pilot error, I do sympathise with the pilots involved and I believe that much can be learned from what happened.

For an aerial view of the area concerned, check:
http://server4.pictiger.com/img/188734/reality-and-real-world/ryanair.jpg

Will.

Faire d'income
30th Mar 2006, 15:33
Hi all,

as usual, it seems a number of factors contributed to this incident (ILS, train passing, tight circuit, shower). Thankfully it did not go from being an incident to an accident. It would have been a good idea to check GPS coordinates. Does anyone know if the airbus was cleared to land? While I would assume it was pilot error, I do sympathise with the pilots involved and I believe that much can be learned from what happened.

For an aerial view of the area concerned, check:
http://server4.pictiger.com/img/188734/reality-and-real-world/ryanair.jpg

Will.

Zicodian an error of 5 miles doesn't even register as a failure on the FMGC which uses the GPS.

It is obviously pilot error but it is easier to do than one might think. The distractions you mention are all factors along with lack of familiarity ( obviously ). There may be other distractions we haven't heard about.

Certainly when circling with high ground around, if you are urgently looking for an unfamiliar runway and then you see one...it can be difficult not to fixate on it. This of course is one of the many reasons there are two people up front, to cross check. That obviously didn't happen for some reason.

ZICODIAN
30th Mar 2006, 16:06
Zicodian an error of 5 miles doesn't even register as a failure on the FMGC which uses the GPS.

It is obviously pilot error but it is easier to do than one might think. The distractions you mention are all factors along with lack of familiarity ( obviously ). There may be other distractions we haven't heard about.

Certainly when circling with high ground around, if you are urgently looking for an unfamiliar runway and then you see one...it can be difficult not to fixate on it. This of course is one of the many reasons there are two people up front, to cross check. That obviously didn't happen for some reason.

I agree. I find that GPS coordinates and a paper map are always a good last check to ensure you are at the right place. One should always try to avert this 'tunnel vision'. I have never used the A320 FMGC, but on all systems I have used it is possible to view basic GPS coordinates. It seems as though an error of 5nm should be reported by the FMGC, as can be seen from this event. I would be very interested in what preceded the landing. There must be other factors involved here which resulted the lack of a good cross check etc.

Will.

teifiboy
30th Mar 2006, 16:42
I really hope I am not opening a can of worms here, and if so, I will withdraw the post. But..

from the BBC coverage, it was reported that the RAF had not been using the airbase since the 1970s. It is pure good luck therefore that the runway was not littered with dangerous obstructions. The consequences might have been unthinkable. If the worst had happened, do you you think there would still be sympathy for the flight crews' plight?

arewenearlythereyet?
30th Mar 2006, 16:56
Ferchristsake! Can we puleeze get some professional pilots on here instead of armchair PC sim amateurs. " find that GPS coordinates and a paper map are always a good last check to ensure you are at the right place." :rolleyes:

The aircraft was exactly where it should have been. There was no error between the a/c and it's GPS location. The only error was in the pilots head and any one of us could have made that mistake.

There are obviously some right plonkers posting on here if they think that doing a tight visual circuit in any medium jet, one of the crew is going to start checking GPS co-ordinates against a plotting chart. Where do these jumped up amateurs think they are suggesting such stupid things on a professional pilots website. Sometimes I despair when I read some of the tosh that these Rodneys post on here.

The most likely scenario, and I'm a Boeing boy not a Tuppaware jet jockey, is that if they did a go-around into a tight visual circuit, there was nothing in their equivalent of the FMC and it is also possible that they didn't have the airport symbols selected either. Whoever was non-flying should have either highlighted the airport, reselected the runway if it was in their database or else just entered a fix on whatever the airport reference point was and extended a course line.

The enquiry will no doubt evaluate things such as the experience levels of the crew and any cockpit gradient that may have caused one pilot to become overloaded to the point of losing situational awareness. Just reading some of the comments on here makes me wonder about the qualification of some posters. This was indeed a mistake that hopefully the crew will learn from. However, it is a serious incident, even if the media cannot fathom why. The crew were extremely lucky that they landed on a serviceable runway and not somewhere where there could have been debris, equipment or anything that could have caused damage to the aircraft.

It is obvious to those of us in the job who knows what they are going on about and those who are pretending to know what they are going on about. Just give it a rest if you are not truly jet qualified unless it is a genuine question. Pontification from pretenders grates badly and only makes you appear even more stoopid than you can imagine. The Eirjet crew will no doubt be feeling bad enough about this incident without some of the amateurs pontificating on here about what they should have done. "...but on all systems I have used it is possible to view basic GPS coordinates." Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

teifiboy
30th Mar 2006, 17:16
arewenearlythereyet?

Do sympathise with some of your sentiments. Those without knowledge of the aircraft navigation systems are not helping by speculating.

However, as a 4,500 hour Airbus guy, I think I can say that there is enough guidance provided in the 320 flight deck to the crew to maintain a pretty good spatial awareness so the question remains why there was there such a loss of awareness. The press seem to have taken a light hearted view but as you say it was extremely good fortune that this did not turn into a more serious incident.

morton.c.a
30th Mar 2006, 17:20
OK... at first i found this hilarious but i have to show some symapthy for the pilots of the a320.... for the simple reason of the embarassment of having to say "Yes, I was the one who landed the a/c at the wrong airport"... and they are going to get a lot of that from their colleagues...

andrewkelsey
30th Mar 2006, 17:29
As just a normal member of the occasional flying public and not a pilot...sorry for posting 'arewe nearlythereyet'....I've read all your comments with great interest. I do hope that the attitude that will prevail in the end is one of trying to make this sort of human error easier to avoid rather than one of just blaming the pilots and changing nothing. How often do we see the police after a road accident saying "That's the tenth car that's crashed on this bend this month. These mad drivers need to slow down a bit." Well duh....there's obviously something wrong with the road markings isn't there. I think you pilots do a great job, all things considered, but it is confusing up there and you need all the help you can get from your equipment and from simple visual aids on the ground. I hope you get it.

mbreen
30th Mar 2006, 17:34
Anyone know the pilot concerned? Was he experienced or what has he said about the whole story?

barit1
30th Mar 2006, 17:55
...
from the BBC coverage, it was reported that the RAF had not been using the airbase since the 1970s. It is pure good luck therefore that the runway was not littered with dangerous obstructions. The consequences might have been unthinkable. If the worst had happened, do you you think there would still be sympathy for the flight crews' plight?

Don't we have a clear international standard for visually marking closed runways? :rolleyes:

sled dog
30th Mar 2006, 17:56
arewenearlythereyet?

For what ever reason, the flight crew screwed up, period. Accept that. Thank God there was nothing heavy ( like a bulldozer ) on the runway.

hawkwing
30th Mar 2006, 18:10
mbreen,

From what i hear on the grapevine,(Rumour etc.), the poor old boy was due to retire next week.
Unfortunately he may get his gold watch a week early.

biminiflyer
30th Mar 2006, 18:20
latest i hear they are striping out the galleys and seats to get it out of there for the perf

not nice for the crew and we can all pontificate as much as we like so arewethereyet wind your neck in:mad:

oldlag53
30th Mar 2006, 18:50
you flyboys have been doing this quite a bit, haven't you??!! :eek:

http://www.thirdamendment.com/wrongway.html

AyrTC
30th Mar 2006, 18:54
I believe it departed last night ( Wednesday ) to Liverpool.

AyrTC

brabazon
30th Mar 2006, 19:05
I'm not a pilot so can't comment on the "blame" issues, but am concerned from the safety aspect concerning fire cover and the state of the runway - ie how often is the runway inspected and what level of fire cover is available - I guess being mil. it's not to CAA standards.

So has it departed now?

SelectMgt
30th Mar 2006, 19:09
I did hear from someone at airport Derry has only got capacity on its hover craft for eight at a time. Given lots of mudflats around the airport and the daily 140 seat aircraft coming in - can this be true?

booke23
30th Mar 2006, 19:24
Who cares......the AFS are there to provide fire cover. If anyone ends up taking a swim, then its over to the coastguard.

I believe it's above and beyond the call of duty for the airfield to even have a hovercraft.

chiglet
30th Mar 2006, 19:47
I did a "Fam Flight" [remember them?] into 'Derry some years ago. Turning onto a long[ish] final, having ascertained that there wasn't a train due, the Skipper poined out an airfield on the nearside of the lough...and 'Derry on the other side......:uhoh:
watp,iktch

Atcham Tower
30th Mar 2006, 20:12
Mr Atcham Tower, you are now famous. : )

No more than I was before! But I stand by my original comments. That runway is still in good condition; no white crosses on the thresholds. Way too easy to sucker even a wary pilot. Miniscule cautions on charts or buried in the AIP should be supported by a heads-up from ATC in certain conditions. I trust that Derry MATS Part 2 will be amended accordingly ...

Regain
30th Mar 2006, 20:29
I have to admit to being a bit of a forum lurker up to now but had to have a go on this one. First off, I am a pilot, I am ex military and I have considerable experience of Ballykelly and Eglington/Derry. To say that reading posts from non pilots on a professional pilots site giving their ill informed opinions annoys me would be the understatement of the year. Also, if any of the stone throwing on here comes from other non puddle jumpers/pc pilots/wannabes/journos then just remember your words when Murphy visits you. Yes, it was a mistake and could have turned nasty but it didn't. I know I've dropped some monumental clangers in my time and lived to tell the tale (including landing in the wrong place in NI - more due to reading the task sheet wrong though).
Anyway, that all sounded a bit angry. Suffice it to say as long as the crew aren't renowned for such behaviour then I hope they get a good laughing at, buy some beer for the nice military men and carry on normal jogging.
Oh yeah, if the Captain's reading this - don't let it happen again!

escapedATCO
30th Mar 2006, 20:58
Seems no one bothered to read my thread I was at Eglinton when it happened. My report is accurate I guessed it was a case of wrong airfield before the pilot landed but I had no means of communicating with ATC who where pre occuppied with an Ils problem. This has happened many times before or nearly so.

Ballykelly is one of the best kept disused if you believe that airfields I know I recently flew in their. Zero fire cat.

This pilot experienced an Ils problem approaching the area of Ballykelly and as I do not have any knowledge of Airbus systems I guess one area were you loose signal is overhead.

I have almost 20 years of experience professionally in aviation in this area the pilot was rushed into an approach and made a mistake but the person with a lot of experience in this area did nothing to stop this happening.

Many have escaped before if only ATC were looking out and not the Pilots then the error chain could have been broken. I can not remember if the pilot had been cleared to land.

fortuna76
30th Mar 2006, 21:26
I have read the whole tread with astonishment. I find that there are three kinds of people posting here.

The non-pilots who very often have absolutely no clue what they are talking about. To those I would like to say that it pisses the hell out of me. This is called a professional pilots network. I do no post on the website for disney lovers so donīt post here if you donīt belong here, unless you clearly indicate that you are not a pilot but have an opinion. I am saying this because some of your more then crazy words are quoted on TV as being Ļthe opinion of professional pilotsĻ. For pete sakeīs NO NO NO.

Then there are our straight ace pilotīs who never make a mistaken and always do everything by the book. First of all, I donīt believe that you make a mistake, but maybe have a good way of covering it up and secondly if you really make no mistake I would like to congratulate you on reaching the status of Mr. Data from Star Trek. But seriously, we all make mistakes. I just did six days of work and made various mistakes almost every day. Fortunately maybe minor things, or things which were caught by my collegue, but one day my fortune may change, and I could be on the wrong strip of asphalt (or hopefully doing that balked landing, if ATC tells me that I messed up). Also those that seem to suggest that the FMS should be the answer and should have told them where they were... well I was though by some very good pilots that if the work load is high, the last thing you want to do is start going inside for the computers. It is just not done, they were on a visual circuit and should be looking outside for visual clues and other traffic. To suggest that they should be working GPS coordinates or have an AIP on there lap is just nutty. I havenīt done any of those things on board a plane ever! Let a lone on a visual.

And then there seems to be some people with some sense, which know what can happen if you start loosing your orientation, is the big picture is getting lost, if workload starts to increase. Thank you that there are at least some of you out there.

How often do we pilots do a go-around? I guess I do about 10 in a year, and every time I can feel the workload going up very quickly in a few seconds. So now we have to make an unprepaired circuit. No big deal in itself, but remember we are also making configuration changes, doing checklist, talking to atc, trying to find out what happened to that darn ILS, maybe making a speech to the passengers (I agree, probably not the best time, but some companies demand it these days), keeping an eye on the runway, other traffic, etc..etc.. Yes, we should be able to do this and we are trained for it, but if this is the forth landing on a long day or maybe the first of the last workday after already 50 hours of duty that week, it gets more hard already.

Bottom line is that we do not know what actually happened but I can imagine it was pretty busy in the cockpit and those two airports look awfully alike to me. Maybe not perfectly aligned but close enough on a bad day.

So causes of the incident (yes incident, accident is qualified as a event where there is death/serious injuries to persons or loss/serious damage to the airplane), are not only pilot error, but so many more things. Letīs remember the old chain of effents leading up to the incident please (it is mandatory lecture for the CRM training).

By the way regain I would love to have a laugh and a beer with these guys over it and I know this it good custom in the army. Unfortunately the life of an airline pilot is slightly more complicated and unless you are in a good outfit the end result is likely to be the pink slip. :ugh:

(sorry about all this, my wife complains to I talk to much too :} )

tristarraf
30th Mar 2006, 21:42
Following this thread with great intrest, non pilot,member of the fare paying public, would fly eirjet any time. Rome and back very recently from Liverpool.We are all human and humans by nature make mistakes,as an ex LGV driver I`ve made many a wrong turn even when I`ve known where I`m going.I hold great respect for you guys up front, and so long as I get on terra firma in one piece then good job done.First ever post,expect to get slagged off for comparing 44 tonne petrol tanker vehicle with A320

DuncanF
30th Mar 2006, 21:44
I'm just a humble low hours PPL but I have a question which someone may be able to answer. Namely at what stage was the first approach "thrown away"?

I can't find any mention of where the go around was initiated, but it occurs to me that unless it was from (literally) miles away, then any such manouvre on final would have been from over the water. So a "gross error check" (one of my instructors favourite sayings!) on the second approach may have raised the issue "where's the water gone?" Notwithstanding that a go around + tight visual circuit = higher workload, the picture would have been entirely different.

Of course if the train issue caused the go around/circuit to be initiated at a much earlier stage then my point is specious and I apologise for sticking my oar in.

Duncan

ratarsedagain
30th Mar 2006, 21:52
Fortuna,
How often do we pilots do a go-around? I guess I do about 10 in a year
Blimey, you have had the sh*t end of the stick mate!!!! Don't think i've managed that many in 16years!!!

ZICODIAN
30th Mar 2006, 21:55
Dear 'arewenearlythereyet',

This is in relation to some of your earlier comments. Ignorant/rude comments bring down the quality of this forum. I fully agree with the sentiments of 'fortuna76'.

>"Can we puleeze get some professional pilots on here instead of armchair PC sim amateurs.
I am a fully licensed advanced aerobatics pilot with 2500 hours. No, I may not be as skilled as you, but I might know enough about flying to offer an opinion.

>"The aircraft was exactly where it should have been."
No, it wasn't.

>"The only error was in the pilots head and any one of us could have made that mistake."
I agree with you here. To quote from the British Airline Pilots Association submission to the Cairus Commitee on Accident Investigation, 1961; "Every pilot is a human being and therefore fallible."

>"There are obviously some right plonkers posting on here if they think that doing a tight visual circuit in any medium jet, >one of the crew is going to start checking GPS co->ordinates against a plotting chart."
I understand what you mean here, but evidently the normal routine did not work. I believe that pilots should know where they are at all times. I have not flown large passenger jets, but I would expect that the first officer could check the GPS-derived coordinates before actually landing. Obviously, something fundamental like this needs to be done, even if it is simply a visual reference outside as a final confirmation that the airport observed is, in fact, the correct airport. It appears that the some of the most basic of navigational techniques, dead reckoning, was lost in this event. Perhaps people could make suggestions here?
As I said before, it was very fortunate that the event was not worse. The investigation will hopefully shed some light on what went wrong, and we can all learn from it.

>"The Eirjet crew will no doubt be feeling bad enough about this incident without some of the amateurs pontificating on here >about what they should have done."
While I sympathise with the crew, at the same time it was a very fundamental error made and, as such, the event should be analysed in an attempt to prevent a similar event from occuring. It appears as though a loss of situational awareness was the cause and it would be useful to find why this occured, especially since there were two pilots. It should not suffice to say it was due to 'pilot error'.

>"...but on all systems I have used it is possible to view basic GPS coordinates."
I said this in response to what 'Faire d'income' said: "an error of 5 miles doesn't even register as a failure on the FMGC". I found it hard to believe that an A320 guidance computer could not register 5nm off. As I am not familiar with the FMGC of the A320, feel free to enlighten me. I am not an expert and, hence, I am asking questions. I, just like everyone else here, want to know what happened so that a similar occurance cannot happen. So let's not be rude and instead hear educated suggestions and opinions.

Will.

fortuna76
30th Mar 2006, 22:30
Well about those go-arounds... I guess that because we operate a lot in London City about half of those come from there... :{ the rest might be because we also come a lot in places where the weather reporting is not as good as you would like it to be (say few 2900 and finding yourself fully imc at MDA 1000 feet, in the go-around.....).

About that GPS, FMS, etc... help story. Donīt forget that if you have Londonderry in the FMS as destination and you abandon the programmed approach to fly a visual circuit, there is NO warning if you land in the wrong place. Some people seem to think that there will be a big red warning light flashing in front of you as you are about to land 5 nm away from destination. Not so. In fact, probably the only indication these guys would have had from the fms was a small yellow message saying Ļapproaching last waypointĻ as they finished flying their missed approach. In any case any message from the fms should be ignored at this stage since we are now flying a visual and fms has no place in there. Sure enough it would be great to program some sort of approach but that would use up valuable time and brain capacity. In reality if somebody would try and use the highest level of automation at this stage in the flight, I would like to have some tea and biscuits with them and talk it over, itīs not a good idea.

Offcourse that does not mean that you can not rever to it if you feel you are loosing your orientation, but the fact of the matter is that they probably never got that feeling. They were busy, one flying the plane, the other going through procedures. They had the runway in sight and were happy enough to land there. The feeling of disorientation would have set in quite a bit later I guess.

It is easy enough for us to think now, why didnīt they see that distance reading on the fms, or distance to a vor, or whatever (Sorry donīt know if there is any there), but ask yourself next time you are on downwind for a visual how many times in the last minute have I looked at all that? It is just to darn easy to condem somebody from the back seat. If you donīt believe me, tape your next sim ride and have a real good look at it afterwards from that comfy seat back home. You will be amazed of all the little mistakes you make, or the little thinks you did not too. (and that may actually have been a very nice sim ride).

I hope the chief in their company feels the same and will take a real good look with the crew about the incident. Maybe we can all get a good lesson from it in the next safety bulletin. :ok:

SixDelta
30th Mar 2006, 22:47
Sven Sixtoo (a couple of pages ago)

"Non-critical" errors??

Landing at the wrong field seems fairly "critical" to me. As far as i understand it, the crew lost the ILS (localiser) signal and subsequently positioned visually for entirely the wrong the airfield.

There but for the grace, etc, but........it's an enormous f*ck up isn't it.

At the end of the day, hope they both still have jobs.

Nov71
30th Mar 2006, 22:49
Some posts have suggested Ballykelly runway is 'disused' It is not. A quick 'Google' shows it remains a military airfield (Army) operating mainly helicopters eg Chinooks. The RAF flew a C130 there in 2004 to assist with the rescue of that Canadian sub. My empathy for the pilots.

Many years ago I was at the BAE Woodford Air Show A USAF jet assured us he was heading in to start his display. After several minutes no show, the tower asked where he was. "Heading home after completing my display over your airport" - Manchester Airport!

tmax
30th Mar 2006, 23:04
same guy involved in an incident in snandic airports some time ago for the the same carrier!!! ex aircorps or how the hell they call them!!!!!!

brethren
30th Mar 2006, 23:06
Just a quick pointer. Not too sure about where and when the Go Around began, but on the 320 if the approach mode isn't reactivated in the system shortly after a G/A commences then the computer may "dump" any destination data (runway/approach aid) ientered into the FMGC.
Very much specualtion here but if the FMGC did dump everything and the guys flew a tight visual circuit without the N/D displaying relevant info then you can see where the problem may have arisen. This coupled with x-lists, ATC, missing ILS'...life can get confusing.
Better to learn from this, admit that we all make mistakes and put it in the back of our minds for the day we find ourselves in the same position.:ok:

arewenearlythereyet?
30th Mar 2006, 23:38
Sorry ZICODIAN but you are well out of order with your last and previous posts.I am a fully licensed advanced aerobatics pilot with 2500 hours. No, I may not be as skilled as you, but I might know enough about flying to offer an opinion.Thay is precisely why some of us get rather angry with people like you. Just because you hold a basic licence doesn't give you the right to pontificate your opinions on here. I have no experience flying aerobatics and therefore don't presume to offer opinions about it.

I believe that pilots should know where they are at all times. I have not flown large passenger jets, but I would expect that the first officer could check the GPS-derived coordinates before actually landing. Obviously, something fundamental like this needs to be done, even if it is simply a visual reference outside as a final confirmation that the airport observed is, in fact, the correct airport. It appears that the some of the most basic of navigational techniques, dead reckoning, was lost in this event.Well, that just about sums up your lack of appreciation of the difference between flying a modern jet aircraft and whatever it is that you fly for your aerobatics. I won't even begin to go into the differences but your shoot yourself in the foot with the opener "I have not flown large passenger jets" and then go on to tell us what you would expect the F/O to be doing. I bet you haven't even flown 'small passenger jets' or even 'small jets' or even 'jets'. :hmm:

Please, do us all a favour, go and find yourself an enthusiasts site where your 'aerobatic' experience will be taken as gospel proof that you know what you are talking about and leave this site for those of us who do know what it is like and what we can and can't do when flying our heavy metal. If you want to offer an 'opinion' rather than ask a question, then go and do the training, take the exams, get some experience and then come back here and we may then actually listen to you. For the time being, I have you and a few others posting on here down to a 'T', enthusiastic amateurs with a wannabe attitude but with nothing to back it up. :*

john_tullamarine
31st Mar 2006, 03:29
I have no comment re the incident as I have been very close to doing the same thing myself very late at night years ago ...

.. however, just thought that you might be interested to know that the event scored a paragraph in one of the daily papers over here (Melbourne, Australia) today ...

throttle up
31st Mar 2006, 06:37
tmax......I hear he's not an army chap, but a 320 pilot from a national carrier on contract to eirjet...could that be possible?

Watchdog
31st Mar 2006, 07:06
ZICODIAN - I agree with arewenearlythereyet - unlike yourself, I AM a A320 captain and I can assure you that you're out of your depth....

but I would expect that the first officer could check the GPS-derived coordinates before actually landing.

are you kidding? Sorry mate, you have no idea. As a wise man once said "Best to remain silent and be considered an idiot, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" :hmm:

srjumbo
31st Mar 2006, 07:10
Arewenearlythereyet, I agree. In the days before 9/11 when we had flight deck visits and were asked, 'where are we?' it took some looking at a ground map to find out exactly where we were.
For what it's worth, if you haven't flown to Derry you wouldn't know how easy it is to make the same mistake and five miles in a jet is no distance whatsoever.

Jockflyer
31st Mar 2006, 07:36
First off, let me just say that I do feel sorry for the crew, they won't live this down in a hurry, however.....

1. If they were unfamiliar with the field, would they not have briefed in the crew room before the flight, and noted the disused airfield on 5 mile final.
2. If they were familiar, then there really in no excuse!
3.Coming from Liverpool. they would have been cleared to COLRE at 3500' and told to decend on the glide. Once they called viz they should have noticecd that if they had been on the glide, they would have been far to high to land at Ballykelly (1500' too high 5x300'!!), they should also have seen Derry straight in front of them, with all that water on the approach.
4. On a viz approach you are asked to call 4D, before clearance to land is given. So they would have to be checking their DME, thereby giving them another opportunity to realise they was something no right.

Anyway you look at it, its a huge mistake. What was the PNF doing? If he was too busy to notice, then the Captains cockpit management sucks.

I'm going into Derry today, so I let you know if they got it out of Ballykelly.

JF
Hope Murphy isn't with me today!!!

Kalium Chloride
31st Mar 2006, 08:12
I'm going into Derry today, so I let you know if they got it out of Ballykelly.

They have - ferried to LPL as far as I know.

Joe le Taxi
31st Mar 2006, 08:28
Looks like I had better qualify myself first - I fly efis boeings.

My nav display shows a runway symbol for the destination, which doesn't disappear on a G/A. Doesn't zicodian sort of have a point? - Not that the co-ordinates themselves should have been checked, but that 'landing' on a completely blank piece of nav screen, with a 'EGAE' symbol several miles behind them, should have rung a few alarm bells?

Or is the Airbus different?

FlapsOne
31st Mar 2006, 08:33
This was a huge mistake...............but just that.

There should be no question of the crew losing their jobs. This was not gross misconduct, theft or fraud or any of the other instant dismissal type offences going, this was just a big mistake.

Hopefully, a chat with the crew to identify exactly what happened and how, some re-training/re-educating if necessary, put in place procedures that will hpefully limit or nullify it ever happening again, and carry on.

Arkroyal
31st Mar 2006, 08:39
If they were unfamiliar with the field, would they not have briefed in the crew room before the flight, and noted the disused airfield on 5 mile final.Nice one Jock, and probably close to one of the main reasons behind these Murphies.

In LCC world you get 45 mins from report to pushback.

It don't matter where the aircraft is relative to crewroom, how long the queue at security. Things, mostly small are glossed over, and briefings are not what they were.

Solution, CAA demand 60 minute reporting for all airlines operating from UK bases.

But that won't happen, will it? 45 min report= longer working days = more fatique = open invite to Mr. Murphy, who is not admitted very often, but occassionally slips under the guard of knackered, rushed pilots.

Zicodian,

You really do not have any idea how we operate, and while I'm more polite than arewenearly.....please leave it to us, and we'll leave the cunning stunts to you:=

IFR OnTop
31st Mar 2006, 08:43
...My thinking exactly!!!

Jockflyer Quote:
3.Coming from Liverpool. they would have been cleared to COLRE at 3500' and told to decend on the glide. Once they called viz they should have noticecd that if they had been on the glide, they would have been far to high to land at Ballykelly (1500' too high 5x300'!!), they should also have seen Derry straight in front of them, with all that water on the approach.


Correct me if I'm wrong but picture is basically;
Wx - VMC,
ILS - Was operational at the beginning of the approach

Well what's the procedure for losing an ILS on approach (fully established) in VMC? "Go missed" immediately or continue the approach (maintaing rate of decent) until "field in sight" or "DH"
It is clear that if he/she executed a GA he/she would have gone to a fix and entered a hold but the commander's decision in all this is that he/she elected to go visual.
So what was he/she doing entering a tight circuit miles (5) from the threshold of the intended field?
I do not want to even speculate who's at fault but if pushed came to shove "Pilot error me thinks"

Sorry boys/girls s**t happens :O

Mr Ree
31st Mar 2006, 08:56
20 min turnrounds and life on the run while at work take their toll.
Exhaustion bordering consistently on the edge of fatigue blurs the mind which seriously diminishes ones ability to deal with unplanned events. Also it becomes very hard to recognise that your own decision making ability has become impaired. Events can take a course of their own which an otherwise fresh mind would easily be able to call a halt to. Flying 5 long 10 or 12 hr days on the trot at a hectic pace is not conducive to a clear mind.
An FO I recently flew with told me a very similar story about his recent flight into a large French airfield. For various reasons they ended up on a visual approach in hazy conditions and only when the picture looked wrong on short finals did they go-around, having realised they were lining up at the wrong airfield. This in an A320 (with "GPS co-ordinates" of course, and we all know how helpful they are. That'd be on the data page, line select... I've got the time to do that......and then cross reference that with the Jepp plate, now where did I put that...oh yes and just how many miles a minute are we doing....)
I wonder just how used the crew were to the life of fast turnarounds and having very little time for anything at all. If it was a case of it being day 5 for the crew then little wonder. There but for the grace of God..........

Curious Pax
31st Mar 2006, 09:05
Apologies for sticking my nose in as a non-pilot, but would the fact that presumably the Eirjet pilots don't normally operate to such tight turnrounds as Ryanair be a factor on the fatigue issue? Presumably Ryanair pilots are used to the pace of their turnrounds, and how best to deal with it, but I imagine if you are used to 45 minute turnruonds then 25 minutes must come as a bit of a shock.

Agaricus bisporus
31st Mar 2006, 09:44
CP, you're welcome. I'm not sure that fatigue is an evident factor here. Fatigue is usually considered a result of long-term stress and cumulative tiredness, tiredness being is a short term symptom. The Ryanair pilots these guys replaced were likely candidates for fatigue, but I know nothing about Eirjet's working levels.

To a crew unused to a short turnaround the effort may produce stress (and errors) which may indirectly induce tiredness, but I don't think shorter turnarounds are inherently more tiring than longer ones.

The staff answer is if you don't have time to do the job you're given, just take longer! But whatever you do, do it properly.

We seem to have no info if these guys were familiar with Derry or not, we are assuming they weren't, but that is only an assumption.

Personally if I get a go-around at a strange airport (and often at a familiar one) I'll ask for radar vectors back to an approach (be it visual or instrument). A vis circuit takes more concentration and if you haven't briefed it, studied the plates for it and identified the hazards (as, evidently, was the case here) so why then expose yourself for the sake of saving a couple of minutes? Could the rush-rush syndrome so common in our industry have played a part here? I wouldn't be at all surprised. Anything even slightly out of the ordinary is a cue to slow down, as far as I am concerned!

And that would include being asked to do a turnaround in less time than I thought it could be safely achieved by me and my crew.

virginblue
31st Mar 2006, 10:22
A BUNGLING pilot who landed his passenger jet at the wrong airport has been grounded. He has been told he will not be allowed back into the cockpit until a full inquiry is carried out. ... A County Dublin man who has 30 years service with top European airlines, he joined Eirjet nearly 18 months ago. Although the Civil Aviation and Irish Aviation Authorities will decide his fate, the company was understood to be standing by him.

http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=71962&pt=n



A mock-up of a Ryanair advert circulating on the web today offers "One way flights from Liverpool to Ballykelly" for Ģ0.79p. Ryanair saw the funny side, simultaneously taking a sideswipe at Eirjet who were operating the Liverpool to City of Derry flight. Said a spokesman: "Ryanair is happy to announce that we are offering Ģ20m of saving for passengers on all of our 314 European routes, but for Ballykelly, please contact Eirjet."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northwest_edition/story.jsp?story=684742

Faire d'income
31st Mar 2006, 10:31
I said this in response to what 'Faire d'income' said: "an error of 5 miles doesn't even register as a failure on the FMGC". I found it hard to believe that an A320 guidance computer could not register 5nm off.
It would register the error but it would not highlight it as a failure. ( The difference being you would have to go looking for it as against an attention grabbing warning ). During a tight circuit with high ground at an unfamiliar airfield it would not be practical to be 'heads down' checking co-ordinates against a map.

Q: Most operators have a 2 approaches and then divert policy. This is usually specific to low vis ops but I have heard of office pilots reporting a skipper for making a third approach in good weather. The point ( and the question ) is can this policy put enormous pressure on the crew to get in on the second approach and hence create the problem it is trying to avoid?

cartmanfly
31st Mar 2006, 10:49
although my minibus knowledge is fading to fond memory now, I recall that if TOGA is not applied during a go-around, the FMC dumps the approach details. Hence airbus recommend always using TOGA even momentarliy before placing the throttles back in the climb gate. This would pretty much leave you without any meaningful reference on the map display too. The report should make interesting reading for us all.

mach79
31st Mar 2006, 10:59
ZICODIAN

I agree entirely with Areweenearlythereyet -I'm afraid your posts reek of someone who is way out their depth.

You speak of "checking the co-ordinates" of the aerodrome you are about to land at????????????

What a load of utter tosh.I can just see me getting my map out while making an approach.

Please stick to aerobatics, you are just winding up pilots who do it for a living for the sake of getting in your holier-than-thou tuppence worth.

Looooong haul
31st Mar 2006, 11:22
it's quite unbelievable how BOTH pilots ignored the ICAO identifier they were approaching on the Navigation Displays.

Go back to FS please.....

ZICODIAN
31st Mar 2006, 11:29
Hello again,

>"Just because you hold a basic licence doesn't give you the right to pontificate your opinions on here."
Even with a basic CPL you should land at the correct airport and on that front, I believe my opinions are just as valid as anyone's.

>"I believe that pilots should know where they are at all times. I have not flown large passenger jets, but I would expect that the first officer could check the GPS-derived coordinates before actually landing. Obviously, something fundamental like this needs to be done, even if it is simply a visual reference outside as a final confirmation that the airport observed is, in fact, the correct airport. It appears that the some of the most basic of navigational techniques, dead reckoning, was lost in this event."

>"Well, that just about sums up your lack of appreciation of the difference between flying a modern jet aircraft and whatever it is that you fly for your aerobatics. I won't even begin to go into the differences but your shoot yourself in the foot with the opener "I have not flown large passenger jets" and then go on to tell us what you would expect the F/O to be doing."

I normally fly E-300s at the moment. I have also flown the C-41 (along with about 15 other different, smaller craft). I was merely making a suggestion on what could be done to prevent this in the future. Surely you'll agree that something fundamental went wrong? As such, I believe that a fundamental solution to the problem is required. No matter what you fly you should always know where you are. Maybe my suggestion is an amature one for a large jet aircraft; with your experience, would you suggest something that could be changed that could prevent this kind of event from occuring? Would I be wrong in saying that 5nm is a large error in position for an airliner setting up for landing?

ukatco_535
31st Mar 2006, 11:33
I can fully understand why joe public wonders what is going on and then smirks at stories like this.

I am an Ex Military flyer. I would not dream of flying into an unfamiliar airfield without ensuring I had fully briefed myself and checked charts etc. That is basic airmanship and professionalism.

Basic DR navigation and map reading is among the fundamentals of navigation skills.

It is quite incredible (in my mind) that the pilot could have mistaken a disused run down airfield for a shiny civil one.

On the other side of the coin, were the ATCOs not looking out of the windows??? Alarm bells should have been ringing with a big gap on finals where there should have been an A/C!!

At the end of the day - mistakes do happen - talk of people losing their job is just ridiculous... maybe a little bit of re-training in airfield recognition though!!

Few Cloudy
31st Mar 2006, 11:42
I must say it is nice to see that very little uninformed bashing is taking place, rather that experienced pilots know how very possible it is to screw up like this. We have all been close to this situation - usually one pilot notices in time.

Don't mention FEs either - I once had a hard job convincing my Capt and my FE that it wasn't the original Amman airport they insisted was ahead of us - but the one under construction, As we overflew it we saw the equipment all over...

Having said that, I was once ready to lob into the "wrong" Norfolk airfield, and my FO put me straight.

It takes a little tiredness and distraction...

FC.

wheelbarrow
31st Mar 2006, 12:52
I am generally disappointed bu all the second guessing here.How many times have you seen a collegue go down for something that has been flown from the chief pilots desk after a nice lunch- in the cold light of day.mistakes were made (obvious), but out of respect lets put our fingers in our pockets until the investigation in over.Comments from the like of 'imminent boner '( the name say it all!!) are not helpful, but guess hes just a giggling little w~~k~r.
Fly safe guys

RogerIrrelevant69
31st Mar 2006, 13:24
Quite right wheelbarrow.

It was a navigation error, a bloody embarrassing one given that it ended up splashed all over the media, but no one died and nothing got bent. Doesn't really deserve the endless speculation or criticism it is getting here.

My limited experiences of going IFR to VFR (in a much slower Seneca - not Flight Sim) does not allow me to criticise - it can be very confusing with just one runway in sight.

Piltdown Man
31st Mar 2006, 14:31
I can understand how this happened - the lure of a lump of tarmac exactly where you are expecting it to be (almost) - "We must be right, look there it is!" etc... But a trivial question: Who updates Eirjet's EGPWS? As far as I know, the one fitted to our planes would start to really object if you tried to land at a "non-airfield". Maybe the Irish CAA oversight people might like to comment as to their fitness to hold their positions. And what is the status of the rest EI registered aircraft flogging around the world? Probably very similar if this is the level of their oversight. And as EGPWS is a required fit, maybe all EI registered aircraft should be grounded until it is verified that they meet all relevant requirements and are fit to fly?

wheelbarrow
31st Mar 2006, 15:17
With correct inbound ils course selected for rwy,corresponding to programmed fmc arrival rwy then the egpws will not object to where you put it down.you will have what appears to be a map shift( big tell tale if you have gps nav), but your visual and looking out-...perhaps a little system study...and as stated earlier..please put fingers away...

plus your comments reflecting irish standards...dont deserve a reply

Trevelez
31st Mar 2006, 15:40
Lucky to avoid FOD. Perhaps a blood alcohol test may have been in order.

Arkroyal
31st Mar 2006, 15:42
Basic DR navigation and map reading is among the fundamentals of navigation skills.indeed ukatco....

But not used on the flight deck of a modern airliner.

No paper maps available and 5miles is so small an error that DR nav would not pick it up.

Lucky to avoid FOD. Perhaps a blood alcohol test may have been in orderTravelez....You fool. Now go away.

junior_man
31st Mar 2006, 16:12
As alluded to the A 320 will dump the airport when TOGA is set on the go around. The data is still there, just strung out after the missed approach. But, the airport and runway will NOT be displayed on the ND unless the "airports" is selected on the EFIS controller, and then all the airports in the database will be displayed.

So, when they returned in the pattern, all they would have displayed on their NDs would be the missed approach unless they cleared the miss out of the FMGC in which case they would have had all the approach data again as it is there, just after the miss.

As far as ATCO, I don't believ they need to SEE an aircraft to clear it to land.

maxalt
31st Mar 2006, 16:14
With correct inbound ils course selected for rwy,corresponding to programmed fmc arrival rwy then the egpws will not object to where you put it down.you will have what appears to be a map shift( big tell tale if you have gps nav), but your visual and looking out-...perhaps a little system study...and as stated earlier..please put fingers away...
plus your comments reflecting irish standards...dont deserve a reply

Wheelbarrow, don't be so quick to dismiss - I think he's referring to the Terrain Clearance Floor (TCF) function of the EGPWS, and he may have a point.

Its supposed to warn if you drop below a specified profile during descent toward the runway. It may not have triggered since the airports are close together, or perhaps it was actually satisfied that the landing runway was BallyKelly? That might be a weakness in the system then.

It is not the same as the terrain/GPWS function.
Read here. (http://www.egpws.com/product_information/mk_vi_viii/clearance_floor.htm)

junior_man
31st Mar 2006, 16:21
And if they didn't reload the approach, the airplane wouldn't know where it was supposed to be going....so EGPWS may not have been a help here.

Go arounds are a busy time. PF would be depending on the skill strengths of the PNF here to reload the approach into the FMGC. If the PNF was new, low time, or not to sharp at that (infrequently used) skill the PF may have elected to fly it without the map and approach loaded, which as it turns out is one item in the error chain.
Hindsight is always 20/20.

Faire d'income
31st Mar 2006, 16:39
As alluded to the A 320 will dump the airport when TOGA is set on the go around.

It actually re-sequences the same approach assuming you make it to TOGA. Anything else and it will dump the approach.

As for the EGPWS and various other systems our speculation is pretty moot given we have no idea of the serviceabilty of these or others aids on the flight in question. For example if RA 1 was u/s.

fortuna76
31st Mar 2006, 16:45
Why on godīs good earth would you like to program an approach anyway. New or experienced PNF, doesnīt matter, do you really want to be inside on the typewriter while your collegue is flying a visual pattern. What about looking outside for other traffic, or perhaps the runway for landing? I just donīt understand why so many people here seem to think that loading the fms would have saved the day. That is not what the thing is for. It is a device to fly from A to B (basically designed to save fuel) and has nothing to do with flying a circuit.

Ok let the bashing begin.....:(

junior_man
31st Mar 2006, 17:29
All you have to do is clear out the missed approach, as the approach is in there again after the miss. Takes about 5 seconds if you know what you are doing.

Why would you want to?

Well, maybe having the runway displayed on your ND might prevent you from landing at the wrong airport? Plus it gives you either the ILS if working or an internally generated approach path or an RNAV approach if that had been selected.

Sure, we have all flown in airplanes without moving maps etc., but it is a barrier to prevent wrong airports and wrong runways. You don't have to do it, but if you don't do it, then all the discussion of why couldn't the guy see on his map it was the wrong place is moot as it wouldn't be displayed.

Pirate
31st Mar 2006, 17:30
Fortuna76.

I agree 100%. It's positively scary that there are so many posts on this thread displaying an encyclopaedic knowledge of FMS functions but so little basic airmanship. OK, I'm an old-school dinosaur but visual flying is heads-up.

on21
31st Mar 2006, 17:39
What ever happened to any landing you can walk away from is a good one?:)

CarltonBrowne the FO
31st Mar 2006, 18:33
EGPWS Terrain Floor mode doesn't care where you think you are going- it has its own position information, and will give warnings if you seem to be landing anywhere that it does not recognise as an airfield- this can be embarrassing if you land at a new runway (a newly built one, not just one you haven't used before) at an existing destination. In fact, to prevent Terrain Floor mode from giving an alert, you have to manually disable it. However, if the database of the aircraft in question included the runway at Ballkelly, it would give no alerts whatsoever.

Consol
31st Mar 2006, 19:09
Gentlefolk,
An interesting discussion but really a lot of the above mentioned being spread. To the aerobatic chap who thinks you navigate a large jet by looking a a vfr map and lats and longs...You don't. Know you mean well but its just a stupid comment, accept and move on. You watch the aeroplane, the runway and each other, not pretend you are back in your ppl days. Its like trying to predict the critical mach no. of a C172, just amazingly irrelevant.
Piltdown man, if you wish to criticise the "Irish CAA", (its called the IAA, figure it out), then you are welcome but if you are trying to inject a bit of paddy bashing then you know where to go. Irish aviation is among the best and safest in the world, not because of the IAA and its "leave M O'Leary alone" attitude but of the high standards of Irish crews. If that was your intention then perhaps you should stick to your Daily Mail and ranting about asylum seekers over your cornflakes.
The comments about a blood test is just nasty.
A few more helpful comments, it might be a good idea if the British military stopped pretending that Ballykelly is disused, it is active and seems to have a set of runway lights.
It might also help if the UK marked as an aerodrome with a 6000 ft runway and not a helipad as they do.
Good point on the 60 minute report. We can manage with less most days but a new airport requires extra time and operators don't give it. How about forcing them- regulators?
There but for the grace of God go I...

junior_man
31st Mar 2006, 20:01
Typically something like this is the result of many small things all going wrong.

Basic airmanship is what keeps us up there. Putting as many barriers to the error chain in place keeps things like this from happening. The investigators will probably find a number of factors that caused this to happen.

Things like:

Poor approach briefing (not covering nearby airport if in the notes)
Lack of familiarity with the airport
time pressure, either on time performance or a rush to get there
distractions, flight attendants always call in the middle of this to ask what is going on
failure to follow procedures for on board nav systems
failure to verify with nav systems that runway is correct.
experience in type
lack of proper rest

Answer may include all of these, some of these, or none of these, that is what investigations are for. Any of these or plenty of others could contribute. Usually any one of the failures that is caught can prevent the incident.

That is why you set up an ILS for your landing runway, even if it is VFR. Why you load the runway in the FMGC for an approach even VFR, why we do approach briefings. Nobody out there is above mistaking the wrong runway for the one you are supposed to land on. But it is usually something that is caught a few seconds later when you realize the airport is supposed to be over there, or you are still 15 DME on the localiser etc. Guys in Cubs read the city name on the water tower....

Everything you can do that could prevent a mistake is a barrier to that potential mistake. That is why we follow procedures and verify things.

I will not judge these pilots without a true knowledge of the facts of the situation. My original post was to point out that in the A 320 after a go around the runway is no longer displayed on the ND unless they did clear out the missed approach.

F4F
31st Mar 2006, 20:42
Well, my pinch of salt:

Visual approaches are... well... flown visually (yes, I also belong to the ol'school). Basically switch on the FPA/V function to guide you to Terra Firma, look for the tarmac and plonk the craft on it.
So, usually you have 2 pair of eyes scanning the outside world for traffic and runway... and no time to look at a back-up ILS/VOR/NDB, even less so FMS coordinates.
I'm far from perfect, but there is one function of the FMS I will use during all visual approaches, and it is the BEARING/DISTANCE to the threshold of the landing runway. This not only to be sure to it the right bit of concrete, but also to ascertain my distance from said threshold and configure accordingly. There the danger lurks in just not having the time to look at the box (yes aerobatic man, the approach setting in the bigger aluminum tube is slightly more busy than say in your Extra) at all :eek:

As for start of duty, being 45' or 1 hour before ETD, neither is sufficient for a full crew brief + go to aeroplane + get aeroplane ready + boarding. Being about 30' ahead of checking time is a (voluntary) standard in companies I have worked for, and permits to start work leisurely, giving one some time to socialize with the chicks :cool:

harpic
1st Apr 2006, 06:13
I remember somebody doing this years ago in a Twin Otter (Loganair).

Have flown into Derry a few times and there isn't really any excuse for confusing it with Ballykelly.

fortuna76
1st Apr 2006, 07:48
Dear Imminent Boner,

I disagree fully with your idea of skipping an investigation. You might be right in saying that the ultimate reason for landing on the wrong piece of concrete was the PF saying, Ļthere it is, letīs go for itĻ. However the events before that, leading the crew into a position from where this mistake could be made are very well worth looking into. Leave no stone unturned, find all the facts, get out the rostering, duty times, preparation times, etc. etc. Then go into the communication which was going on at destination and find out where the breakdown occured. I assure you, it was well before being on downwind!

As well mister/miss Imminent Boner (love that name), what will be in your honest opinion the goal of the investigation. Mine would be to get a real good report available in chirp or the safety bulletins, so we can all try and avoid this on our next duties. However if your aim is to nail these guys....well that is never very hard is it? But there are some good lessons to be learned here and as said before the price is cheap this time. No one harmed and no damage to plane!!

Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. Any landing after which you can use the aircraft again is a great landing! :E

Cheers!

Ruthless
1st Apr 2006, 08:53
No matter what is said by sympathetic wimps, you have to be robust about this. These two "professional pilots" took the money in wages to do a job. The job being to fly from A to B they were not capable of doing so, they ended up at X. They clearly have no navigational skills, no map reading skills and no situational awareness. Two people taking the wages but not able to deliver the goods, pathetic.
Now, all you lilly livered mugs cherping in with, tight turn round times, heavy duty rostering, pressure, a simple mistake, no damage done, no one injured or the wife wouldn't let me shag her last night, is just bollocks. They should be sacked and their licences revoked, they are guilty of at best GROSS PROFESSIONAL INCOMPENTENCE and at worst RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING LIFE. If the CAA had any balls they would be charged accordingly. You make fools of yourselves and the industry by defending them. Mr O'Leary is right, they are nothing more than gloryfied bus drivers. The fact that no one was killed or injuried is in no part due to them. There is no inquiry to wait for, the facts speak for themselves, they didn't declare an emergency, they continued an approach, blissfully unware of where they were, they were quite happy they knew what they were doing or they wouldn't have landed there. NOW RIP INTO ME FOR BEING HONEST.

fortuna76
1st Apr 2006, 09:38
Too bad a little light hearted joke doesnīt go anymore......sigh :(

As for the rest, if you feel that you are not interested in the outcome...well donīt read it. But if you look at articles in chirp and other publications you will find that most incidents originate from a mistake made on top of a whole stake of bad situations, like this one! Donīt dismiss it please. It might be interesting!

eire757
1st Apr 2006, 09:39
No matter what is said by sympathetic wimps, you have to be robust about this. These two "professional pilots" took the money in wages to do a job. The job being to fly from A to B they were not capable of doing so, they ended up at X. They clearly have no navigational skills, no map reading skills and no situational awareness. Two people taking the wages but not able to deliver the goods, pathetic.
Now, all you lilly livered mugs cherping in with, tight turn round times, heavy duty rostering, pressure, a simple mistake, no damage done, no one injured or the wife wouldn't let me shag her last night, is just bollocks. They should be sacked and their licences revoked, they are guilty of at best GROSS PROFESSIONAL INCOMPENTENCE and at worst RECKLESSLY ENDANGERING LIFE. If the CAA had any balls they would be charged accordingly. You make fools of yourselves and the industry by defending them. Mr O'Leary is right, they are nothing more than gloryfied bus drivers. The fact that no one was killed or injuried is in no part due to them. There is no inquiry to wait for, the facts speak for themselves, they didn't declare an emergency, they continued an approach, blissfully unware of where they were, they were quite happy they knew what they were doing or they wouldn't have landed there. NOW RIP INTO ME FOR BEING HONEST.
Sympathetic wimps? I would actually call it being able to recognise that we all make mistakes. Aviation is only as safe as it is because of the relatively open culture, however these guys wll be well aware of how serious this incident is.
Glorified bus drivers? Yes we are, but only in the same way as brain surgeons are glorified plumbers. You get the average bus driver to guide a £100 mil aircraft thru the skies and there would be a very big whole in the ground very quickly!
People make mistakes every day in their jobs and one day my friend you will too. the fact you say they didnt "declare an emergency" shows that you are not a pilot and never would make it as one.

Will Scarlet
1st Apr 2006, 10:05
These guys did not deliberately land at the wrong airfield so there must be a reason why they became disoriented and convinced themselves they were in the right place.
As professional aviators it's in all our interests to find out why and how this could happen.
I await the final report and certainly don't see the need to slag off the crew on this anonymous forum.
WS

Ruthless
1st Apr 2006, 10:23
eire757,

Your response is the rubbish I expected, you display your naivety beyond belief. I am a pilot, with thousands of hours actually, on what evidence do you make the rash statement that I am not. You jumped to a conclusion, just like they jumped to a runway any runway.
Who says the bus drivers would make very big holes they may do a better job, do you think you are something special, these two would probably have held your attitude proir to the incident, the " we are special no one can do what we do" belief, but they have been brought down to earth with a bang.
If a surgeon was to operate on you to amputate your left leg and removed the right leg by mistake, would you have to be a surgeon to criticise his mistake when it was so glaring. They have, to repeat, been guilty of gross negligence and or recklessly endangering life. I have never said that I haven't made an error nor that I never will. However, in life sometimes you have to be real and not live in fairy land like you, eire757, they have screwed up big time no mitigation can undo that, get real, the world doen't owe pilots a living nor do they have to accept rubbish from them. Be big enough to stand up and be counted, be a man.

d246
1st Apr 2006, 10:40
Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in what Ruthless says. Forget all the nonsence about rostering and work patterns etc, etc, ultimately how would you like to have been sitting down the back if the military had a helicopter or JCB parked half way down the runway? Effective use of the onboard mapping systems could have prevented this, but of course we are all 'real' pilots who prefer to resort to stick and rudder?

Idunno
1st Apr 2006, 11:17
Mr.Ruthless is a Troll. A grand total of 7 posts - all on this thread. Watch out for pseudonyms too.

I hesitate to even respond, but if some of you (d246) are truly gullible enough to believe that an experienced pilot (thousands of hours he says) would refer to himself or this profession as glorified bus-drivers then you need your head examined. I propose that his 'thousands of hours' are behind a PC with Flight Sim.

Regarding the comment on surgeons cutting off the wrong leg, obvious crap because:

(a) surgeons have done that kind of thing many a time and are rarely fired for it as far as I see (current case in the US - little girl had wrong side of heads opened for brain op. They realised their error, moved to the other side, did the surgery, closed up, and thats all right then!?:bored: )

and

(b) in this incident nobodys leg got cut off. Nor anything else for that matter.

Back to reality - the newspapers say the Captain had tens of thousands of hours experience on 'major european carriers' before joining Eirjet. Would this Captain have been recently retired from another well known Irish airline perchance?

Piltdown Man
1st Apr 2006, 11:54
Consul you are right, Irish pilots are amongst the good guys and as you say, inspite of the IAA. There is no "Paddy Bashing" meant or intended from this corner. But don't you think that an organisation which has so many aircraft so look after (I'm not just speaking about those operated by RYR, but those operated throughout the world, many by national flag carriers) should have a greater presence? And in no way was I criticising the guys involved. But we have ways and means to help ensure that these "minor" excursions don't take place. Some of the them, like EGPWS (which doesn't care what's in the FMS, set up on the Nav boxes etc...) are technical. Other are operational, some training related and many airmanship related. And on each and every one of these factors, leadership and guidance MUST come from the national oversight authority. To date, I believe that they have been sleeping. Maybe, hopefully, this will be the turning point and you will end with an organistion to be proud of.

CamelhAir
1st Apr 2006, 11:57
If you examine Ruthless' posts, you will see he made some inquiries last year about the vagaries of the ATPL written exams. Now he claims he is a 737 SFO on his profile. In fairness, if you, like Ruthless, were doing your exams only last year, and were now a 737 SFO, that would be an astonishing rate of progress. Given such a rate, clearly he is something special and operates on a higher plane to the rest of us and is therefore qualified to make such comments. :rolleyes:

fortuna76
1st Apr 2006, 12:07
Sorry to be posting so much on this tread, but the comments of Ruthless are just to much for me.

Dear mr. Ruthless: If you are really a pilot with thousands of hours (which I highly doubt given your comments), I would like to know where...so I donīt accidently apply there! You are a dinosaur! How dare you judge on other people and say that they should be fired when you have no clue about what really happen. Nobody does except the pilots and the authorities investigating the case right now. Or were you by accident sitting on the jumpseat? How dare you call my fine collegues a bunch of bus drivers! How dare you sympathise with the stupid opinions of MOL. How dear you ignore the reality of CRM, and human error and decide on your own what is right and wrong.

Of all the people that write here, I guess that you are the most likely person to make the next mistake and land somewhere wrong (with a co-pilot who does not dare to speak up to you)....ohh no, sorry, you are god :yuk: .

No brains in your head mate!

(sorry for getting nasty, but I hate to see our fine profession thrown down the gutter like that)

CamelhAir
1st Apr 2006, 12:17
Irish pilots are amongst the good guys and as you say, inspite of the IAA

There's a lot, a large amount, of truth to both halves of this statement. The IAA are utterly toothless and kow-tow completely to the whim of the airlines. And I think ayone who has flown with Irish lads will agree with the first half.

But don't you think that an organisation which has so many aircraft so look after (I'm not just speaking about those operated by RYR, but those operated throughout the world, many by national flag carriers) should have a greater presence?

Absolutely spot on. Here is the organisation that has wilfully allowed FR operate more aircraft than allowed by it's AOC for example. Is it any wonder you see so many aircraft around Europe under EI reg? Ireland, due to the IAA, is the Panama/Bermuda of European aviation. I, for one, find it embarassing.

Danny
1st Apr 2006, 12:30
Sigh!

There's always a few who get baited by the silly little trolls like Ruthless and can't resist falling into the trap. For the time being, Ruthless has been given a suspension with a warning that should he come back on here, he does so with a bit more civility and depth to his posts.

Those of us who fly these types of aircraft for a living can always tell when someone posting on here is doing so from a position of ignorance. There are always tell tale clues in things such as terminology and descriptions of what 'they' think we have with us on the flight deck.

I would appeal to everyone on this thread that has taken the time to speculate or pontificate that 'we' know who knows what they are talking about and 'we' also know who is trying to pretend to be a professional airline pilot but failing miserably in the process. Stop trying to pretend that you are one of our fraternity if you are not. Once you are in, assuming you have the qualifications AND experience to back it up, your comments will be give the consideration they deserve. As for the others who pontificate without the experience to back it up, and I mean experience flying these kinds of jets, then please limit your posts to questions or else qualify your experience as faking it isn't going to wash on here.

Now, can we please ignore the Trolls and pretenders and get back to some semblance of debate rather than some of the mind numbingly irrelevant stuff that the media love to latch on to. :rolleyes:

d246
1st Apr 2006, 12:43
Isn't it always the case on these forums that no matter what criminal, incompetent, stupid or crass action some pilot may be responsible for there is always a vocal mob defending them. What part do the regulating authorities play in a couple of pilots landing at the wrong airfield? What defence can they possibly mount? Who would be responsible for the consequences of an accident or of deaths? It's time some of you grew up and learnt to accept the consequences of what you do. Indeed, the sooner aircraft are totally automated and the less 'Biggles' up front has to do or touch the better. As for the entry above, you may disagree with Ruthless, Danny, but his entries are no more or less offensive than many others here. As for

Now, can we please ignore the Trolls and pretenders and get back to some semblance of debate rather than some of the mind numbingly irrelevant stuff that the media love to latch on to.


Well 90% of the stuff on these forums fits that description and who is responsible for that?

Faire d'income
1st Apr 2006, 12:59
Danny having already removed some of my posts over the years why cant you just delete these trolls?

You can start with d246 who is another to have claimed to be a pilot in the past on these boards.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2359286#post2359286

Consol
1st Apr 2006, 13:13
Thanks Piltdown, clarification fully accepted and appreciated. The IAA is indeed very laissez faire on airlines and lets them do pretty much as the see fit. Its all part of a facillitate our "small open economy". I have also some knowledge in how they deal with ordinary ppls are they are pedantic in the extreme on many matters. It really is a gross imbalance. However this eirjet 320 was DUB based so there is no excuse for lack of oversight.
Anyway, as stated by another, EGPWS is not fool proof as is supposed to be overridden if you have a nuisance warning in day vmc and know where you are. Which the pilots thought they did! If we are honest we could all have done this, learn and be wiser.

BitMoreRightRudder
1st Apr 2006, 14:04
d246

What possible defence can they have? Under pressure, they made a mistake. As human beings are prone to do. Do you honestly think that this crew has committed a criminal offence? They had a sodding bad day at the office. I think you will find that they are being defended by people who have some experience flying these types of aircraft, people who understand how a go around increases workload considerably and appreciate how easy it is to lose orientation and spatial awareness under such circumstances. I would suggest that you have none of the above experience, understanding or appreciation, and your comments are therefore meaningless.

To put it bluntly, you don't know what you are talking about.

STCM
1st Apr 2006, 15:11
I remember when I was a sprog Second Officer on the 707 on my first flight into Bombay the crusty old skipper told me the tale of the Comet I think it was that landed at Juhu instead of Bombay (it's on short final centreline 09). Suitably forewarned I landed at the correct airport - not difficult as we were 5 in the cockpit in those days -Capt, 2 F/O one of whom navigated, E/O and me under suspicion. Had a look on Google Earth if it's still there, it is and you can see they've painted JUHU giant size on the threshold. I reckon the Bally Colonel should get his squaddies out there with buckets of white paint so it does'nt happen again.

captjns
1st Apr 2006, 15:21
With charts, and proper briefings, and GPS, how can anyone defend landing at the wrong airport? No excuse and that the bottom line.

d246
1st Apr 2006, 15:48
Of course one makes mistakes Bitmorerightrudder, some might be disastrous most not. However, as professional aircrew we understand that the buck stops at the left hand seat. We understand that passengers place their trust and lives in our hands and expect us to get it right, we don’t in the main, make excuses or expect others, such as yourself, to do so for us. We accept responsibility for what we do and are usually the first to hold up our hands and admit our errors and accept the consequences. There may be extenuating circumstances, bad luck or any number of reasons why an accident happens but ultimately we know that there are no excuses for incidents such as this. I’m sure that this crew understand this, they will have plenty of time to reflect on what might have been but for sure they don’t need platitudes from such as yourself.

Strepsils
1st Apr 2006, 16:23
There has to be some criticism here.

All the talk of short turn-around times is nonsense. It's a fairly direct track from Liverpool to Derry, usually on a radar heading, and I refuse to believe that there wasn't enough time in the (very short) cruise or in the descent to go over the major points of the approach brief.

Also, according to the info here they flew a go-around when the ILS failed/was switched off or whatever happened to it. So why didn't they follow the missed approach, go into the hold, get their bearings and then make a visual approach. They rushed and they weren't ready. Whether this is due to company time pressure or whatever I don't know but the captain should ensure that the don't get sucked into this sort of trap.

If they weren't familiar with the field they should have taken a few minutes extra to ensure they both knew what the plan was. Whilst it's a relatively easy mistake to make, the crew are undoubtedly at fault and have to expect some criticism. Life aint sugar coated you know.

captjns
1st Apr 2006, 16:26
However, as professional aircrew we understand that the buck stops at the left hand seat. There may be extenuating circumstances, bad luck or any number of reasons why an accident happens but ultimately we know that there are no excuses for incidents such as this

Without exception, there is no excuse or any extenuating circumstances as to why a professional airman would or could land at the wrong airport to which he/she is dispatched to. That’s why we have approach plates and briefings, to ensure the intended destination airport is landed at.

Crews who land at the intended airport of destination is not good luck its just professional disciplines which are followed in the cockpit… plain and simple.

fortuna76
1st Apr 2006, 17:23
I find that as a captain, you are made responsible for things which you can not always be responsible for. Now this is a bit off topic, and in now way removes the responsibilities of a captain to land at the correct airport, but it came to my mind because of all the people writing that the captain should take the fall.

Are you all familiar with those laws which state that the captain is ultimately responsible for this or that. It is written all over the air law and some of the things we donīt even control. As captain I am responsible to know the contents of all the AIPs of all the airports I can go to (in my airline about 700). And I donīt even have the AIPs available to me. As a captain I am responsible for signing of an airplanes technical state, which I can only check with a walk around, having not been an engineer before. As a captain I am suppose to accept the most crazy runway configurations due too noise abatement, but if something happens, they go at me because I did not request the longest runway with the most headwind. As a captain I have to maintain myself fit and rested, but they can reduce my rest to 7 and a half hours (with taxies and food that leaves 5 hours for the sack...).

I guess the best example is the long haul flight with the captain, FO and cruise relieve pilot. Who is responsible if the Captain is sleeping in his bunk and the FO and cruise relieve pilot are flying? You got it, the captain who his sound asleep is responsible according to law for everything that happens at that time on the flightdeck.

I am happy to take the responsibilities and I will do my utmost to garantee the safety of my passengers and myself. But I have also accepted that if something goes wrong there will be a 50% change they will eat me alive no matter what I did! That is why I will defend any pilot unless he is proven to be absolutely not qualified, and there are very few of those around. And I am quite certain that the guys from eirjet are quite qualified.

Why can we pilots not leave the bashing of our collegues to the other guys. There are already so many out there who will slaughter us at their convenience. I am not talking about protecting our own, or covering up mistakes. I am just asking for a bit of respect for the guys that are going to a lot harder period right now then you and me behind the PC.

Thank you!

Lou Scannon
1st Apr 2006, 18:06
In over 40 years in aviation, military and civil, I knew several pilots who managed to land at the wrong airport. In none of those cases were they the sort of guy that you would expect to make that mistake.

The moral to that story is that if it can happen to them you had better believe that it can happen to you... and keep checking.

as for "Ruthless", I am reminded of the advice that it is sometimes better to let people think that you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and prove it beyond all doubt!

BitMoreRightRudder
1st Apr 2006, 19:20
d246

I'm not making excuses for them. They landed at the wrong airfield. Can't really hide behind anything there. I've suggested that they made a mistake at an unfortunate time when they were under pressure, and that the bashing they are receiving here is unfair. I'm certainly not suggesting they are above criticism, but that the criticism should come from those who have all the facts of the incident to hand.

As for the rest of your post I'm quite aware of the responsibilities that my job entails and what the passengers expect of the crew, but you have my thanks for the quick refresher course. As you say, I'm sure the Eirjet crew also understand this.

And what they really don't need is to have ridiculous accusations fired at them and inane drivel written in a public forum by the likes of Ruthless, and then have said drivel labelled non-offensive by a fellow professional.

Safe flying to you.

eire757
1st Apr 2006, 21:49
With charts, and proper briefings, and GPS, how can anyone defend landing at the wrong airport? No excuse and that the bottom line.
As far as I know eirjets aircraft are old A320s without GPS. Mapshift is a possibility. The GPWS has GPS updating fitted whether the FMGC does or not. This said, the resolution on the GPWS (as opposed to that on the FMGC/ND) varies from airport to airport often causing spurious warnings! The runway may not be in the right place on the ND but occasionally is not anyway.Charts and a proper briefing will therefore be of no consequence if it is a visual approach and the runway is in the correct orientation. I'm not defending the guys unconditionlly but there is always a chain of events that cause an incident or accident. Remember all the holes in the cheese lining up? Day 1 on CRM courses!

eire757
1st Apr 2006, 22:55
Iminent Boner,I take your point but I was trying to highlight that FMGC and GPWS dont always tie up and that therefore GPWS is often spurious.Dme/Dme may not have been avail since the ILS and co-located Dme was off. I have had a 2 mile mapshift before when a Vor/Dme was available( albeit in Spain). If the mapshift was 2 miles at ballykelly ( the BEL being a fair distance down the rd) the runway would neither be in the right place for there nor for Derry airport. I'm not famliar with Derry so maybe there is other navaids for updatin?Granted I'm only speculating but nothing can be ruled out!

Faire d'income
1st Apr 2006, 22:56
I think the non-pilots and the frauds here misunderstand professional pilot's attempt to analyse every single detail of an event such as this.
It is not intended to absolve anyone from blame or to seach for a non-flying scapegoat. The sympathy for the crew involved is genuine and is not meant as a defense or absolution. It is merely a recognition that mistakes happen.
The majority of crews will use an event like this to examine their own thought processes and error trapping procedures to make sure they don't do the same thing. Avaition's record has evolved from a difficult youth into maturity. That is the way it had to be and every investigation ends with recommendations based on the lessons learned, this case will be no different.
The media and the world at large, when it takes it's annual look at us, will want to see a single individual making a single error as being responsible. They can then package it in broadsheet and even boardroom form and pat themselves on the back that they found the culprit.
The rest of us will look a lot longer and try to figure out why the system allowed this to happen.

Dream Land
2nd Apr 2006, 01:27
eire757 do you know if the database included the destination, if it wasn't this could be another complication that we can learn from.

Dan Winterland
2nd Apr 2006, 01:52
If you're going to get a mapshift, it will be to a more correct position once the ILS beam has been picked up. A clue here!

Anyway, Ryanair flights have always been landing at wrong airports. You should see the look on their passenger's faces when they land at Hahn and are told how far it is to Frankfurt.

antilla
2nd Apr 2006, 08:21
Isn't there a case for putting the ICAO airport code on the runway?

Neighbouring airports may well have runways with similar orientation, so the basic 2-digit numbering is surely insufficient - as this case shows.

flash8
2nd Apr 2006, 08:59
Why are we talking about mapshift here? Absolute Bolleux. I knew that old chesnut would rear its head...

Simple fact is, and it does pain me slightly to say this, they f*****d up and thats the end of story.

Silly Boy
2nd Apr 2006, 09:14
You lot are pathetic, afraid to hear the truth so you ban the one person, Ruthless, from talking sense in this forum.
I fail to see how anyone can have sympathy for these 2pilots. Why try and defend the fact that these "professionals" have made a huge error. It's like a bus or train driver arriving at the wrong destination and everyone saying, "Oh it's ok, he's stressed, let's forget about it". It's laughable.
If you were on a GFT and the examiner asked you to fly to say, Cambridge and you arrived at Stansted, do you think he'd just say, "It's ok you've still passed because I feel sorry for you"? It doesn't happen so why are you intent on defending these people. The fact that there were no injuries to anyone on board or on the ground os pure luck, nothing to do with pilot skill, as in my view these pilots have no skill. However, would you people still be defending them had there been an accident?
I feel these pilots need complete retraining or, if the job is too stressful for them, just :mad: off.
Thanks, SB

RoyHudd
2nd Apr 2006, 09:27
It strikes me that most contributors on this thread are NOT professional pilots. What are they doing here? Their contributions are frankly worthless. There are many websites and chat rooms for people who are not professional pilots and wish to talk about flying matters. There are other places on this website. But I am afraid that this thread has been totally devalued by the mis-informed rantings and ravings written. I am starting to wish that I had not contributed to the site, because it has been hi-jacked by fools. I wished to learn, or at least read an educated debate. This is nothing of the sort.

Time for a pprune2, Danny!

MaximumPete
2nd Apr 2006, 09:38
SillyBoy,

When was the last time you made a mistake?

AND Don't say you don't!

We are human, we make mistakes and I'm sure, as well self-professed expert, you can trace the "Error Chain" in the incident.

Disciplinary action is there to punish and rehabilitate:-

Punishment enough to walk into the crew room and face all your mates, more than adequate?

Rehabilitate, you can bet your pension those two lads will never make the same mistake?

MP;)

Silly Boy
2nd Apr 2006, 09:59
How can you have an educated debate in here when it appears everyone is siding with the 2pilots and nobody is allowed to say a bad word against them? When someone says a bad word against them, like myself or ruthless, we are deemed idiots, trolls etc. Seems there is no room for debate when people have already made there minds up and are unwilling to listen to the sad fact that the pilots made a huge error, there should be no sympathy, just punishment, there are plenty of other fully qualified "professionals" out there that would jump at the chance of having there job, if they can't be bothered to carry each flight out accurately and successfully, bearing in mind the level at which they are working and the amount they are being paid then there is no room for them in this line of work. I suggest they go back to Sunday afternoon flying round the circuit somewhere, venturing outside the circuit is obviously beyond them as they can't navigate.

The Real Slim Shady
2nd Apr 2006, 10:18
Silly Boy

Have you never encountered the mind set phenomenon? The guys were planning to land - it may have been that they had never been to Derry before - and at a crucial point in the procedure were distracted. The mind set " I am landing" still existed;ergo, they landed. Of course there may have been other factors involved. For example, Eirjet use EAG charts,not Aerad or Jepps. I have used all 3 types at various times and the EAG charts are by far and away the least user friendly.Additionally they lack the detail of Jepp and Aerad.Think contributory factor here.

The whole essence of modern aviation CRM is founded not on Draconian punishment but in understanding and identifying the causes of the problem and taking steps to educate and inform to avoid recurrence.

An error occurred; let's wait until all the facts are known and the investigation identifies the causal factors and makes recommendation on avoiding a recurrence.

Blame the pilot is just too easy.

Yer Man
2nd Apr 2006, 11:31
What worries me about this event is that there appears to be a lack of attention to detail. Any carrier's flight landing at the wrong airport has to be seen as a failure of standard operating procedures.
Is this incident indicative of a greater malaise within the airline. I believe business has not been too good recently for Eirjet and staff morale is rumoured to be very low.

Tim_donovan
2nd Apr 2006, 13:01
About time Danny, Some one need to put a few peeps in place!

My a/c has Proline 21 and should we have to perform G/A, to do say a Visual circuit to land. With 3 key strokes I can change the data displayed on the PFD to Visual approach data information. Extended centre line, glideslope info etc
Which I might add is hardly taxing on the PNF.
Different story if you are in the sim and in the G/A they fail an engine together with the flap failure and for good measure a PFD failure. Vis drops to 500RVR and Cloud base 300 feet you know the score
Is this possible to put Visual information with the A320?
Oh and what about the Boeing? can you get Visual data information

Wing Commander Fowler
2nd Apr 2006, 13:05
it would be a few more than 3 keystrokes but you can still give yourself an extended centreline on the boeing......... If you were truly "visual" though.....?

Atcham Tower
2nd Apr 2006, 13:38
Been away for a few days hiding from the paparazzi :) Astonished to see how this thread has snowballed in the meantime. Glad to see that the majority of professional pilots agree with my sentiments - there but for the grace of God,etc. There are one or two posters I would prefer not to fly with. They show an unhealthy amount of hubris (look it up).

Will all the PPLs and PC pilots please keep their half-baked opinions to themselves. I am just a non-current Cessna 150 driver (I've flown a DH Hornet Moth, though - gleam of pride) so I wouldn't presume to criticise professional pilots. I know from long experience, however, that they are human like the rest of us. I have saved quite a few of their reputations from runway and sometimes airfield mis-identifications. One of them was a Royal Flight aircraft ... Nor did I mean to criticise my fellow ATCO at Derry. He was evidently distracted at the wrong moment.

This is no derelict wartime airfield with cows wandering about. I flew from there a few years back in a Lynx and the runway was an impressive piece of concrete and obviously still is.

About time to wind this thread up, I think, and wait for the official investigation. As a young controller once said to me a after a minor cock-up "Oh well, nobody died!" There's a much more interesting thread about Liverpool ATC ...;)

FLCH
2nd Apr 2006, 13:42
What worries me about this event is that there appears to be a lack of attention to detail. Any carrier's flight landing at the wrong airport has to be seen as a failure of standard operating procedures.
Is this incident indicative of a greater malaise within the airline. I believe business has not been too good recently for Eirjet and staff morale is rumoured to be very low.

Since when is a failure of SOP have anything to do with malaise within the airline? I think you will find pilots will fly their trips to the best of their ability regardless of whatever the condition of their carrier is.

Danny
2nd Apr 2006, 14:53
The time really has come for me to put my foot down. Silly Boy/Ruthless, yes, one and the same person, is NOT an airline pilot and has NO airline experience. A quick review of his/her posts reveals that we have yet another wannabe trying to pretend to be something they are not. In this case, trying to be clever and insulting at the same time. Well, you are not going to ruin these forums for those of us who do the job and are in a position to debate and discuss this incident.

So, go back to studying for your fATPL exams and worry about whether your 75% pass mark will hinder you in your search for a job. You are not in a position to criticise these pilots. If the rest of us who have an understanding of what it must have been like for them want to discuss it then we will. Once you, Ruthless/Silly Boy get your first jet job, then perhaps you will be able to take part in these discussions and have some understanding about what could have caused this crew to make the mistake they did.

Not everyone is 'siding with them'. Those that have bad words to say about them are at least as qualified as they are and not some trumped up wannabe who thinks that because they have done some theory exams and flown a single engined Cessna or Piper from A to B to C with an examiner that that gives them some right to pretend that they have reached the experience level to have an opinion. We, and I mean the 'we who have some experience in the job of flying jets from A to B for pay', can at least understand how this incident happened. It doesn't mean that we are infallible ourselves and we care to try and understand how it all went wrong so that 'WE' can avoid the same mistake ourselves one day.

What Eirjet decide to do with the pilots is up to them. When wannabes like Silly Boy/Ruthless get their first experience of an LPC in a real sim, we'll see how perfect he/she is then. Until you have been through the wringer and have an understanding of how these mistakes can happen you'd be well advised to crank that neck in a few notches because as was mentioned earlier in this thread, it is always very easy for those of us in the job to spot the pretenders who mess up threads like this for the rest of us. :*

junior_man
2nd Apr 2006, 14:54
Besides, the line is GREEN in an Airbus.

mondriver
2nd Apr 2006, 15:03
Well said Danny
...and therein lies the problem with PPrune.
What was once an excellent forum for professional pilots to pool ideas and news/rumours, has been overcome with PC pilot wannabees who just take any opportunity in turning every thread into a free-for-all slanging match.
It is for that reason I very rarely contibute or even read these forums anymore....
:*

MFALK
2nd Apr 2006, 15:17
While it is true that as airline pilots we occasionally see the replies posted in the forum as nonsensical, I still believe that this should be an open forum not limited to aviation professionals as sometimes, interesting rumours and news which may affect us, may well start from outside our ranks.

After all I think we can easily identify the valid comments from the cr#p.

dwshimoda
2nd Apr 2006, 15:27
At great risk of sticking my neck out and attracting all sorts of unwanted attention, can I just say that not all Wanabees should be labelled / viewed in the same way as others?

I have been using these forums for nearly 3 years now, and used them initially to help determine my path through "the wanabee years" and as a great source of info whilst I am still training, and no doubt will continue to do so if I am lucky enough to get a job as a professional after all the hours of hard work and effort.

Without the fantastic debates and information provided by the various forums (Jetblast included :ok: ) I would not be the (private) pilot I am now, nor the Professional pilot I aspire to be. As with any walk of life, you will get people at each end of the spectrum who will polarise opinions - please do not associate all Wanabees with the same levels of intelligence / skill / tact / etc. After all, you were all wanabees too at one point.

I can't even begin to comprehend the workload on a flight deck in the final few minutes of flight (thanks to the closed flight deck door policy) having only been able to visit while on the ground in the last few years. But knowing the mistakes, and therefore massive learning points, I made during my training and ongoing, I can only feel empathy for these guys whilst also appreciating what could have been, but thankfully wasn't.

Sorry to change the direction of the thread slightly, perhaps now it can go back to the original point, and I'll skulk off back to the Private Flying and Wanabee areas...

DW.

Danny
2nd Apr 2006, 15:39
Just to put genuine wannabes at ease, the points I make are to wannabes or pretenders who try to make the readershp believe that they are experienced airline pilots. It's one thing to make criticisms from a position of experience and it is another to come on here and pretend to be something you are not and at the same time using inflamatory language.

Wannabes and anyone else is welcome on here as long as they don't try to pretend to be something they are not as they inevitable get rumbled. Opinion is welcome from non-airline pilots as long as it is not trying to be from someone that hasn't a clue.

Jambo Buana
3rd Apr 2006, 09:27
Is the 320 GA more demanding than the 737? I can be pretty sure that in a 737 the workload goes thru the roof after GA. The PM will have to run the after takeoff checklist, call to Cabin crew, PA, set up FMC for re-land, descent and approach checks. I wouldnt be suprised if PM was halfway thru these tasks as they landed at the wrong place. The GA is way too demanding in my opinion!

Emmett01
3rd Apr 2006, 09:32
[QUOTE=booke23]. To add to the confusion Ballykelly sometimes has its runway lights on.


Ballykelly does not have any Runway lights at all.

NorthSouth
3rd Apr 2006, 09:45
I can't think of any significant obstabcles aroundApart from the 300ft agl mast on the airfield which is only about 80 metres to the right of runway 26. No wish to comment on blame etc but these people were extremely lucky that the crew didn't do a go-around from short final on realising their mistake - they would have been in serious danger of hitting that mast.
NS

Sunfish
3rd Apr 2006, 09:50
With the greatest of respect to all you professionals, while I was a mere student PPL, I followed a professional on final in a metroliner onto the "correct" runway at a certain airport. I was warned off at the last minute by the tower, but the professional made a perfect landing on the wrong runway. No one was hurt, it was a good landing and I don't think it was even written up.

Translation : Its easier to do than some may think. I think a certain Asian airline mistook YMEN for YMML and was quite close before they realised the mistake, and in my case 31 was mistaken for 35 at YMMB, which is easy to do.

I think the appropriate quote might be "let him who has no sin cast the first stone..."?

chuks
3rd Apr 2006, 10:49
Back when, I was working as an air taxi pilot at Miami International. One of my bosses pitched up with two nice young Venezuelans who had no English and a shiny-new V35B Bonanza they need to get up to some airport near Daytona Beach. (It was a long time ago so that I have forgotten the names of the airports, but as anyone who has flown there knows, Florida has a lot of airports that are often closely-spaced.)

Would the old pro (me, I guess) please ferry this V35B up there with them since they could not speako da lingo? 'Money for old rope,' right, plus a jolly in a really beautiful little machine. Off we went in CAVOK.

When we got to where we were going I was surprised to see the Goodyear blimp moored there. 'That's odd,' I thought. 'They are supposed to be at that other airport just six or seven miles away....' A quick look in the other direction and there, of course, was my real destination, just a few degrees off from where I was mistakenly heading.

So, as pointed out here, don't be too quick to jump on another crew for getting it publicly and embarrassingly wrong. It is so easy to get locked into a mistaken mindset; until it happens to you you might not believe that.

Consol
3rd Apr 2006, 13:47
Just checked the jepps and it does say expect runway lights at Ballykelly so they must be there!

regularpax
4th Apr 2006, 15:59
WHERE YOU NOT ALL WANNABES AT ONE STAGE IN YOUR CAREERS ?
AND OBVIOUSLY WITH ME JUST BEING A REGULAR , EVERYDAY , AIRLINE PASSENGER WITH AN INTEREST IN AVIATION AND AIR SAFETY ISSUES MY OPINION IS WORTHLESS ?
MY VERY ORDINAIRY THREAD ABOUT MY RECENT EXPERIENCES WITH EIRJET HAS BEEN REMOVED ?
IF YOU WANTED A PROFFESIONAL PILOTS ONLY THREAD THERE MUST BE SOME WAY WITH ALL YOUR EXPERT KNOWLEDGE AND TECHNICAL EXPERTISE THAT YOU COULD EXCLUDE US WANNABES !:uhoh:

Lou Scannon
4th Apr 2006, 16:18
Please don't "shout" with upper case.
...and it's spelt "professional".

Wing Commander Fowler
4th Apr 2006, 16:19
regularpax - I cannot speak on behalf of pprune but for my part you are of course most welcome here. Some (and I do not include you in this) unfortunately claim to be professional pilots and as such there is a danger that the media, who are quoting sources on this site, might pick up on a "troll's" posting and quote it as the opinion of a professional pilot. Some of us are a little concerned. Quite why sometimes escapes me as I happen to know that there are actual professional pilots on this forum who do not represent us too well either! There we go tho'..... Regarding the disappearance of your posting, I believe it got lost along with a couple of pages worth which had descended into a rather unfortunate slanging match. A particularly good and worthwhile effort from Faire d'income also came a cropper which is quite a shame as he went to GREAT effort to expose one such troll. Happens, unfortunately..........

Norman Stanley Fletcher
4th Apr 2006, 16:41
Regularpax - no one is saying your opinion is worthless. In this case, however, it does not carry the same weight as that of a professional pilot. That is not arrogance - it is just common sense. It is like me appearing on some bulletin board for surgeons and spouting forth on the issue of medical negligence following an alleged 'botched' procedure. My opinion would quite rightly not carry the same weight as a surgeon venturing his professional opinion on the matter. Nonetheless, you have been truthful and stated that you are a passenger and as such your opinion is invited and encouraged.

You have also missed the main point Danny made - the individual he criticised deliberately attempted to conceal his credentials and made himself out to be more professionally able to comment on the incident in question than he actually was. This guy was extremely forthright in his criticism but lacked the professional credibility to do so. You will note that almost every single professional pilot on the thread has said words along the line, "there but for the grace of God go I". In the final analysis, there is a distinct likeliehood that some official criticism will be laid at the door of the crew involved - although at this stage that would only be conjecture. Regardless of that, I for one will feel nothing but sympathy for them, knowing that it could so easily have been me. I will be even more cautious than I already am when operating in marginal weather into airfields I am not familiar with.

blackmail
5th Apr 2006, 07:33
hello every one,

norman stanley, you take the words out of my mouth.

kind regards,
bm

-8AS
5th Apr 2006, 08:36
Is the 320 GA more demanding than the 737? I can be pretty sure that in a 737 the workload goes thru the roof after GA. The PM will have to run the after takeoff checklist, call to Cabin crew, PA, set up FMC for re-land, descent and approach checks. I wouldnt be suprised if PM was halfway thru these tasks as they landed at the wrong place. The GA is way too demanding in my opinion!
Jambo Buana - I have never flown an airbus so I am unable to comment on the demands placed upon the pilot during a go-around but would assume (I know one sould never do this as it only makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me') that the mechanics of performing the GA are straight forward. They are in the 737. The subsequent management can be time consuming but should never compromise the safety of the operation. A situation should not arise where the PF is landing while the PNF is still undertaking post GA tasks! I know that most pilots plan all approaches as if a GA was the norm and a landing a bonus. If one conducts an approach with this mindset a GA does not become a 'mad panic'.

Jockflyer
5th Apr 2006, 15:52
Go-arounds....

Its true, go arounds are stressful, and the workload high, so why did el capitan elect to do a tight visual circuit into in unfamiliar airfield, when he already had to bin the initial approach because he thought it wasn't right?

The errors the crew were making were compounding the problem. Had he followed the published GA prodedure he would have had time to do all the checks, and been better able to idenify his position, ie at the EGT beacon.

Sorry to say but it looks like very poor cockpit management.

JF

rupetime
5th Apr 2006, 16:33
I am a low hour PPL holder and I am well establised in my ground based aviation career to not be a wannabe however I do have ambition to learn from these forums and even at my lowly position I have learnt to read, learn and understand but mainly not begin to judge other people by their mistakes, let EirJet and the relevant authorities do that, perhaps we could all learn something by these guys misfortune/mistake.

One interesting thought, can you for one minute imagine the atmosphere on that flight deck when the penny dropped?

Dream Land
5th Apr 2006, 16:35
Sounds to me like the crew had a high workload during the approach, and as far as the missed approach goes, did they request or were they issued the procedure they flew, does anyone know? And again, does anyone know whether or not they had that runway in the database, this could have played a part.

DuncanF
6th Apr 2006, 14:10
WingCo
Quite why sometimes escapes me as I happen to know that there are actual professional pilots on this forum who do not represent us too well either!
Nail ... hammer .. head! ;)

RatherBeFlying
7th Apr 2006, 00:00
The VFR chart that shows a heliport symbol when there's three obvious runways is an invitation to error -- once you're past the first airport (that perhaps looks abandoned -- subject to correction by those with local knowledge) the next one must be Londonderry;) However as airline crews do not generally carry VFR charts, this has little bearing on this incident.

It would be more relevant to see what different suppliers' approach plates show. If only one "abandoned" airport is mentioned on the plate and the ILS is u/s, you'd spot which:confused: "abandoned" airport and land at the next one:uhoh:

Are both "abandoned" airports shown on the approach plate used?

blackmail
7th Apr 2006, 06:36
hello rather be flying & others,

i agree with your comment about the misleading symbology on the vfr chart, but normally these are not used for an ifr approach, even when this ifr approach is then followed by a visual approach. i don't know if there is still a legal requirement for the vfr charts to be on board at all. i always carry the latest edition of the pilots' atlas in my flightbag & noticed that many fellow pilots do the same. i find this atlas useful to look up at the briefing stage, when planning to go to an unfamiliar airport for geografical location , alternate airports etc... . in this case however, this atlas would not have saved the day.
read in flight international magazine that the flightcrew was suspended from active duty.

kind regards,
bm

JW411
7th Apr 2006, 13:34
Am I the only one who thinks this nonsense has gone on quite long enough? Pilots have been landing on the wrong airfield from time to time ever since I can remember but I can't recall anyone else getting 11 pages on pprune out of it.

The reason that they made the mistake was that they were flying VFR at the time. Had there been a couple of tanks or a squad of soldiers on the runway then they would have gone around.

Before the hysterics start saying "but what if it had been IFR" then it is blatantly obvious that they wouldn't and/or couldn't have been in the situation in the first place.

Although I never quite managed it myself landing at the wrong airfield was almost de rigour when I learned to fly. As someone once said, there are those who have and those who are about to!

brain fade
7th Apr 2006, 18:41
Could it me that this chap misidentified the airfield on his FIRST approach?

ie during the approach, comes out of cloud, sees Ballykelly, thinks its Eglinton but he's too high of course to land, so goes round, repositions himself 'correctly' for the airfield he just saw and lands?
Just thinking out loud so to speak. After all it wouldn't be a tight circuit round Eglinton if it included, say a four mile final for Ballykelly would it?

cwatters
7th Apr 2006, 18:55
Could it me that this chap misidentified the airfield on his FIRST approach?
You could be right. See the post by EscapedATCO on page 2. Reproduced in part below...
Sorry to report I saw the incident happen and also heard it on the radio. The A320 crew elected to go around after losing the ILS signals and asked for circuit details. From a viewing position west of Eglinton I saw the A320 turned downwind RH at EGQB(I believe the pilot said he thought he was to high to land but he looked perfect to me i.e. wrong airfield).

145qrh
7th Apr 2006, 19:24
Well Brian-fade..

We both have been there quite a few times, and together on a few occasions, Airbus ND picture, and Rad Nav display would make mis-ident well nigh impossible,,,,,if and it's a big if , that it's programmed correctly..

After a go-around the flight plan gets re-sequenced, only if they actually went to TOGA, if there go-around was a level flight fly-over from the platform altitude then the Bus dumps the active flight plan, then you are on a blank screen..Early turn down-wind, no ND, less than perfect vis, then Ballykelly here we come...

Controllers at Derry used to be piss-poor,,,highish msa and procedural only used to make it a bit of a dogs dinner when it got busy, well more than 1 plane in the circuit, weird and wonderful arrival and departure clearances to keep procedural seperation...

Who knows, it will all come out in the wash, I'm sure the Irish Caa, will give a full and frank report when the time comes...:}

brain fade
7th Apr 2006, 23:49
Hi Sport
And it's Brain not Brian fade if you don't mind! Yes we always managed to plonk it down where the folks bought tickets to.
I can easily see how a non-precision app could leave you more or less looking at either airfield when you break out of cloud depending on how exactly if was flown. The old 'dive and drive' in particular. Come to think of it BK is a bigger more noticeable place than Eglinton too.
Target fixation?

Regards to all in the desert old fruit!:ok:

BTW. As regards the incident itself. Big deal. Plane lands on runway. Not exactly going to make an episode of 'air crash investigation' is it?

eu01
16th Aug 2006, 21:44
History repeats itself. Remember the Eirjet? Today a Turkish charter flight did it again - in Poland. Filled with the passengers it landed... well, according to the schedule (at 19:50 CET), but... something went terribly wrong, just as at Ballykelly. The SHY335 flight from Antalya to Poznan (EPPO) landed at EPKS (Poznan - Krzesiny), one of the most important military airports in Central-Eastern Europe, Polish 31st Air Force Base located some 7 nm S from EPPO (see http://www.31blot.com/31blot_eng.html ). A while ago the plane was still there with the soldiers all over! Why is it happening again?

eu01
16th Aug 2006, 22:17
An update. The passengers had to spend about 3 hours at the military base aboard of the aircraft, but as the (female) pilot was tested for alcohol and found negative, the plane has been given a permission to fly to its proper destination.

Dave T-S
18th Aug 2006, 13:02
Firstly, apologies for resurrecting the original thread:\
Secondly, i'm too old at 52 to be a wannabe, just a frequent flyer with a lifelong interest in aviation - enthusiastic amateur.
Having read the original thread, one interesting post comes to mind:
Eirjet use EAG charts,not Aerad or Jepps. I have used all 3 types at various times and the EAG charts are by far and away the least user friendly.Additionally they lack the detail of Jepp and Aerad.Think contributory factor here
Again I will stress I have no experience here, apart from flying in to EGSS in the jump seat of a 757 years ago with a Portuguese crew wet leased in to replace an Air UK flight, they had their Jepp map bulldog clipped to the control yoke (which concerned me slightly at the time, I never realised before that there was this A-Z of airport approaches available ;) , but it did look a bit odd at the time) so I do at least understand what it is.
The only question I would ask, on the basis of the quote, is why someone would use EAG when there is apparently from the above post a better product available. It may well not be relevant to this thread anyway if it wasn't a contributory factor to the error, but the question is still valid in a wider context.