BA to make U-Turn in their Business plan [Archive]

DPIT

18th Jun 2001, 13:00

As usual, the media have got it completely wrong!

BA is still focussed on the premium (profitable) end of the business, and thus BA has not changed its strategy of cutting capacity, and focussing on premium passengers.

What it is doing is trying to shed the reputation that it is an expensive airline when compared to low cost carriers. We all know (well do you?) that (apart from the single rule...so take a return against a rweturn) the walk up fares of the low costs against BA are roughly the same!!

Thus BA are trying to let people know that the cheap fares are there, and always have been, and are roughly the same as the low costs!!!

So sorry guys, no change of strategy here!! In fact you will probably see AF & LH cutting capacity in the not so distant future. They cannot sustain the current level of growth in the current market conditions!

cowboy

18th Jun 2001, 14:21

not quite right there dpit. while ezy and ryanair do fleece the walkup passenger, go's top fare (ie the one you'll get if you're a walkup) is about half the cost of the big boys

DPIT

18th Jun 2001, 16:05

Cowboy,

Thanks for that info! I had assumed that Go priced the same way as Ryanair and Easyjet! I stand corrected!!

I think that most people think that ALL of Easyjet's and Ryanair's fares are much cheaper than BA, which is just not true!!

If you hunt around, the same bargains can be had at BA as the low cost boys!!

DPIT

18th Jun 2001, 16:11

Lucifer

18th Jun 2001, 21:12

Doubt they would integrate Citiexpress. BA promised pilots that buying BRAL would not make the combined Bral and Brymon a training base, nor train pilots on props/regional jets, and if chopping all European routes off to them they would be recinding on this promise. If it was integrated, then it would mean TEPs would go off to regions on props: going against what they said. In addition they promised not to integrate it all anyway.

Mind you: do you trust corporate promises?

AMEX

19th Jun 2001, 03:25

Low cost doesn't always mean the cheapest.
Just bought a ticket with BA over the internet for £164 LGW-LYS.Reason is because a LGW-GVA with EZ was £180 which when compared with BA's offer, wasn't such a good deal.
BA is an airline who sees a bit further ahead than most of the others. If BA is at loss, the others will follow within 1 year. Conversely, when BA changes its strategy (and get dragged in the mud for it) things are already improving whilst the competion is still a year or two behind (regarding product on offer, market targeted, capacity changes,...).
BTW I am not talking about the North American market, as I know very little about it.

------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :)
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/MiscDancfrog.gif

html and the img tag don't work in signatures AMEX, so I've pasted your grenouille above to see if it does....atb, mate. £6

[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 20 June 2001).]

normal_nigel

19th Jun 2001, 22:45

Joe Curry

Scottish base was/is a dual report base on 757/767 EDI/GLA. Due to close but not as fast as originally thought because of chang of plan on 757 operating shuutle 9ie its staying on more shuttle longer)

NN

HANGARPILOT

19th Jun 2001, 23:37

I dont know whether any of you guys work for said airline but.... i do and beleive me all of rods strategies are backward.
BA will soon pull out of Gatwick alledgedly because no one wants to fly from there!?!?!?.
There is no morale left at lgw for us engrs 18 months left!. Rods concerns are for shares not staff!.

I learned about flying from that!!!!!!!!!.
:mad:

DPIT

20th Jun 2001, 13:51

Hangarpilot,

Some of us may work for said airline, and I am interested to know why you think Rod's strategy is incorrect? You will see in the next six months or so, AF and LH in particular cutting back on their capacity, as in times of an economic downturn, you have to stimulate demand with decreases in price to get the same amount of pax aboard. If you cut too much...well you lose money. This is essentially what BA were having to do. This, combined with a product (club world) that was a little past its sell by date, with an erratic quality of service (I have not been here for long, and used to work for CO in the USA...and this was the major complaint of BA from all the people I met) and you have an unprofitable operation. Thus downsizing aircraft (most companies are doing this anyway....compare the number of new pax 747's odered with that of B777's) and updating the product, is the way forward in an increasingly competitive world. Why would you disagree?

With regard to LGW....well, what would you do? BA does not have enough slots, and indeed LGW is not big enough to be a full hub. If there was a second runway, and upgraded terminal...then it could be a good hub. But in the abscence of feed traffic from a hub operation, you have to rely on the O&D traffic. Unfortunately, most people wanting to fly to London for business, will go to LHR as this is more convenient than LGW for there business meetings. I would agree that the transport links are good, but how long does it take to get to LGW from central london by cab compared with LHR? A long time. Thus, the yeild's you get from a pax at LGW are much less than that of LHR, which ultimately mean that the operation is not going to be profitable (even though EOG/CityFlyer have lower cost bases!). If you suddenly said that all carriers that cannot operate from LGW due to bilateral reasons (DL, CO, NW etc) could move to LHR, they would all move tomorrow!!! There must be something in that!!

I can see two futures for LGw. If a second run was built, and BA could expand there, I would imagine that LGW could be turned into a good transfer hub, with LHR as the point to point airport. However, the ods of this happening in the next ten yeatrs are almost nil. Therefore, the other options would be to change the operation from a transfer/hub operation to a point to point operation, cncetrating on key routes at a higher frequency. This is what Rod is doing, and it is the correct move.

If you would disagree, what would you suggest that BA do. Remember, BA have a government that could not give a damn about aviation, and would rather see traffic go to LH/AF/KL rather than address the problem of under investment of our air traffic infrastructure. This is the opposite of France/Germany/and even Holland.

I am all for staff morale, and indeed I totally agree with the CO philiosphy with regard to how to keep staff happy. CO is extremely good at keeping staff informed, and explaining any desicisions; Something that BA is not good at!! This is bad, and urgently needs to be changed. But remember, Rod is employed by the shareholders, and not the staff. His job is to produce the greatest return for them! You need a good balance of staff morale (happy staff = good service to pax = happy pax = profit) and also careful cost control. If you compare BA's costs of operation, with that of, say the US majors (even after the pilot wage increases), BA still has a much higher cost base. This needs to be addressed, but NOT at the detrement of the business.

[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 20 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 20 June 2001).]

MrUppity

21st Jun 2001, 02:27

We all know why BA's costs are so high, certainly not due to their very efficient and relatively (in world terms) underpaid pilots.
No the reason their costs are so high is too many of DPITs ilk. Get rid of them and pay the pilots properly.
Incidentally normal nigel, they have closed their Scottish pilots base despite the 757s still doing shuttle. Why did they do it, who knows?

AMEX

21st Jun 2001, 06:05

Sorry but DPIT, despite not being a pilot (nobody's perfect ;) ) has shown lots of wisdom so far. I may not always agree with him but I would be glad to meet him at compass (or is is watesrside) for he is not a narrow minded (manager, bean counter) person.
His previous experience (CO) and if I remember well, his inquisitive look regarding BA showed that he can bring something positive to this great airline who doesn't lack of ideas but more what I would call finesse (how to treat staff for example).
DPIT, always a pleasure to read exchange ideas with you.
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/MiscDancfrog.gif

------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/MiscDancfrog.gif

DPIT

21st Jun 2001, 12:39

MrUppity,

You certainly do live up to your name! Although I find your tone a little off, I am interested in your point. In my opinion, BA does have too high a headcount, and needs to bring it down. So, here, I am going to have to agree with you. The cuts have to come, in what you so eloquently describe as "my ilk".

Interestingly enough, you obvously know in exact detail what I do! You also presume that as a "beancounter" I hate all pilots. WRONG...I wanted to be a pilot. Indeed, got a RAF Scholrship, got a PPL...and then ran out of money!! I unfortunately, failed the BA tests, so decided, as I have a genuine love for all things aviation, to go into the management. Whenever I travel on duty or for pleasure, I always politely ask if I can jumpseat...and genuinly enjoy it. I think, that the flight crew also enjoy talking to me, as unlike some people I can have a sensible discussion!.

There are several areas where I would cut costs...and none of these are on the operational side. I also disagree with outsourcing as a away of cost cutting...I am assuming that you haven't read Gordon Bethune's (CO's CEO & Chairman also an ex- PILOT!!!!) as he is a beancounter, and all beancounters are bad!!!!! However, he makes a valid point about outsourcing, and to cut a long story short, he brought all of CO's catering inside the airline.

Thus...amazing....a "beancounter" who agrees with getting rid of other beancounters!!!

To make a serious point though, I like to look on the matter with a mature attitude, and not a childish one which Mruppity seems to do. At the end of the day, we are all in this together, and we can BOTH make a difference!

AMEX, thank you for that glowing recommendation; Much appreciated. You are correct, I am based at Waterworld!!! Are you still at EGKK working for the airline we both love?

I like to think that I am one of the 'new generation' of BA staff who are not corporaty blinkered. I will not say "yes" when everybody else does if I do not agree. I will always put my point across, and back it up. Unforuntately, during bad Bob's times, there were too many yes men!!

Anyway, must go...thanks again for your recommedation!

[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 21 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 21 June 2001).]

Capt PPRuNe

21st Jun 2001, 17:10

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">BA set for heavy weather

By Mark Odell
Published: June 20 2001 18:39GMT | Last Updated: June 20 2001 19:21GMT

British Airways' short term outlook took a turn for the worst on Wednesday after Merrill Lynch said it was cutting its profit forecasts by more than 40 per cent for this year as the prospects for the airline sector continued to look bleak.

Merrill Lynch, one of the airline's two house brokers, said it was lowering its pretax profit forecast, before exceptionals, from £256m ($358m) to £150m for the current year to the end of March 2002, and by 15 per cent the next year.

The earnings downgrade will come as a blow to BA, which has received widespread praise for its strategy of cutting capacity to focus on more profitable business traffic. In May, the airline reported pre-tax profits of £150m, up from £5m a year earlier, which was its worst performance in 18 years.

At the time of the results in May, Rod Eddington, BA's chief executive, warned that the economic slowdown, the impact of the foot-and-mouth and continued high fuel costs were beginning to affect business.

But Merrill Lynch said the outlook for traffic growth, mix and pricing had since deteriorated with the additional "unexpected phenomenon" of a snowballing of big pay rise demands from airline pilot unions, the most powerful labour force in the industry. BA will start negotiating new contracts with its pilots later this year.

"Most importantly, no carrier is yet reporting to have identified any stabilisation in these trends, let alone a turning point," Merrill Lynch said in a research note.

The broker said it was now forecasting BA's traffic to fall by 10 per cent year-on-year, after a 20 per cent slump in April and May across the North Atlantic, the airline's main source of profit.

The downgrade in BA's earnings follows a series of profit warnings from the big four US airlines in last few days. The slowdown in the US economy has hit US carriers much harder than expected. In the past two weeks, Merrill Lynch has downgraded its forecasts this year for the US airline industry as a whole from a net profit of $570m to a loss of $750m.

"The trends seen in the US industry appear to be manifesting in Europe with a lag of 3 to 6 months," the broker said.

BA's shares, which have fallen more than 10 per cent in the last two weeks, closed 5 pence lower at 329p.

Source: FT</font>

BOAC

21st Jun 2001, 17:33

DPIT - perhaps an overdue breath of fresh air? Look forward to meeting you on the flight deck some day.

OK - before the onslaught from my flight crew colleagues - I DO know that the word 'GULLIBLE' is not in the OED!

Tobbes

21st Jun 2001, 20:11

DPIT,

Well, it's nice to see some objective analysis here. I agree with the broad brush of Rod's strategy-- the question of yield and cost control is clearly critical. This is especially true in central functions which are pure overhead until they leverage offsetting business benefit from their knowledge / insight / experience.

Doing a similar job to you for another "British Institution", I was wondering how much scope you think there is for an increased proportion of salary (both flight crew and ground crew) being based on profit share, given the highly cyclical nature of the sector? Please feel free to teflon that one, but I'd be interested in your views.

On another issue, the in-sourcing of added-value services sounds like a good answer: I assume (not having worked in the sector) that the major lessors will have a number of "approved" suppliers of engineering to work on their leades jets. If you can sort the contracts out, this is the begining of a source of fee-income which whilst not recession proof, is a little more recession resistant than the hauling of premium class pax.

Interesting stuff!

Cheers

Tobbes

DPIT

21st Jun 2001, 20:21

BOAC,

Thank you for saying that, and yes, would like to meet you some day on the flight deck.

I think there is a realisation at the airline that costs must be cut, in order for BA to surivive in the future. I would imagine that the likely place for cost cutting would be the management side. This in my opinion is the correct move.

Cost cutting has been identified as a 'must do' by Rod, and hence you will see some action.

Sangiovese

21st Jun 2001, 20:36

DPIT any chance you can send me an e-mail, I've got a couple of questions for you (sort of related to this thread).

Many thanks

HANGARPILOT

21st Jun 2001, 22:24

When BA announced their profits they did not mention that engineering had saved 66 million pounds.
I still beleive that rod eddington wanting to pull out of gatwick is a mistake.
Mr Branston and Mr stellios easy peasy are chomping at the bit for the slots that BAs departure will create!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I learned about flying from that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
:rolleyes:

DPIT

22nd Jun 2001, 02:47

Hangarpilot,

I do not think that you will see BA pull out of LGW. They may slim down the number of routes (ie increase frequency on others by dropping some routes), but I do not see them pulling out of LGW all together. I think that LGW is one of the more likely places to expand capacity in the SE (evidence the planning application for home near LGW turned down by Prescott on the grounds of 'future airport expansion'. If this is the case, BA will want to maintain a presence there.

With regard to the cost savings by your department, this is an example of what I have been going on about. This is something to be proud of, and should be communicated throughout BA, so that you guys can receive the congratulations you deserve. Communication is key...something, as I have said before, BA is NOT good at!!

[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 21 June 2001).]

Flight_Finder

22nd Jun 2001, 10:51

I have a tiny arguement on the pen-pushing side.

The report on Capt Pprunes comments notes a fall in profits of perhaps £100 million. Simply slimming down management or cutting pilots salaries will only save a few million here. Really for BA to improve each depart from Pen pushers to ground ops needs an improvement. For those of you in there you know best where this can come from, I believe BA is a reasonably slim airline, take a peek at the comparisons of economics with a similar airlines such as Lufthansa and KLM, you'll know pretty quick then how slim BA is. LH are reviewing their profits at the moment despite having probably one of the best MD's on the planet.

Finally, when is BA going to take over EI? NOw there's a place you could do some serious sliming down of heads!

Regards,

FF

JP5A

22nd Jun 2001, 12:19

On the subject of cheaper fares from BA I had to go to Barcelona and had to go immediately from LPL with Easyjet due to a family bereavement.I paid £150 to get there and the same to return.So much for bargain flights!
Why don't BA adopt the yield system that Southwest and others use rather than have fixed discounted rates mid week as now advertised??They could then take on Easy and Ryanair head to head.They are making big profits.Lets have more competition.

Nearly Nigel

22nd Jun 2001, 12:29

If you want to know where some of the cost savings can be made DPIT, just look at what's left of CityFlyer Express.

British Midland (now part of Gatwick Mangling) allegedly charge us £400 for a turn round at the South Terminal. The same guys who drive the push back tug also load the baggage and connect up the ground power etc. And when they're late at the A/C due to staff shortages or cock-ups, they are at least out of breath from hurrying when they do turn up and (as contracters to a customer) are apologetic for the inconvenience.

Compare that with the North Terminal where the ground handling staff are all unionised BA employees. I believe the cost price per turnaround (to CFE) is nearer £1400, and when there's no one at the A/C on time (for the same reasons usually, staff shortages - manic slot days etc.), nobody comes running. They just stroll up nonchalantly and you rarely get an apology when they do show up. Try also calling Speedbird North to remind them to send a dispatcher out at STD minus 20 and listen to the frosty response over the radio.

There was no-one to connect a GPU up one day last week, but a CFE Engineer turned up and began helping attend to it (it needed manhandling closer)... after he had called someone in BA engineering for permission in case he started a strike. Another engineer told us last week that he'd chocked one of our RJs on arrival when there was no-one else there to do it, only to be told by a BA ground handler who witnessed him do it, never to do his job for him ever again or there'd be some industrial trouble. He was gobsmacked... They weren't there to do it in the first place! Anyway, now he'll sit and watch (while the schedule goes to pot) in future.

I know that unions exist to protect their workers from unscrupulus management (which BA would problably demonstrate rather quickly without some reining in), but these people have got to learn that we all work for the same company and need to pull in the same direction. Cant they see that their own share options are being damaged by this kind of petty "jobsworth" mentality. Too many little empires within BA methinks.

Rant over... But the major excesses within BA are not the Pilots' terms and conditions.

DPIT

22nd Jun 2001, 14:29

Nearly Nigel,

Thank you for that example. I think you have touched on a very real problem within BA, not just in the department that you have highlighted.

There are a lot of very real private armies, and these need to be sorted out for the great good of the company.

I agree, we are all working for the same team!!

The Zombie

22nd Jun 2001, 17:26

DPIT......You are a star!

If only there were more 'normal people' with a 'Can do out look', then things may improve for all.

Good luck to you !

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz........

MrUppity

24th Jun 2001, 21:38

DPIT

At no point did I refer to you as a "beancounter". I do not consider that my post was childish. I was merely pointing out where, in my opinion, the necessary savings should be found

To those who wish to found the DPIT fan club, I would recommend that you peruse http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/014382-2.html

I particularly find our new hero's opinions on the value of Uniteds pilots interesting.

Maybe management should evolve a seniority system so that they can understand how some of his other suggestions would be impractical to pilots. (skipping from company to company in search of a better deal)

DPIT

25th Jun 2001, 12:29

MrUppity,

I appologise, for remarking that you stated I was a "beancounter", and also if I inferred that your post was childish. This is the way I read it, and if it was not intended like this, then I was wrong; sorry! Although, I do think making references to a DPIT fanclub is a little absurd.

With regard to my comments regarding the UA pilots on the JMC thread, I completely stand by them! If I remember correctly, a Senior Captain has now had his pay increase to just over $210,000 PA. I was merely stating that this in my opinion, is a little high. Would it not be better to bring the bottom of the industry, the commuter pilots, (who, are quite frankly, WELL underpayed), upto to a descent level, rather than give huge pay increases to mainline pilots? I was actually shocked when I heard how much they were payed; I earned more as an Intern than an average pilot at one of the regionals!!! I was also trying to make a comparison with the UK, if I am correct, this is much higher than an equivalent pilot here.

I DO understand the system concerning seniority. However, isn't it one of those old industry practices that need to be changed? If airlines know that a big dissincentive to move is the seniority rules, then wont it give more bargaining power to the airlines? If such rules were down away with, it may make the market for pilots more flexible, and thus, will probably have the effect of raising salaries?

Just some thoughts here...I can imagine that it is both impracticle and not wanted...just some thoughts!!! Please, tell me your thoughts on this matter, I would be interested to learn.

[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 25 June 2001).]

CRP5

25th Jun 2001, 16:37

DPIT looking at the time your post was made surely you should have been ensconced behind your desk in Waterworld or the Compost centre, if so are you tipping our profit share down the pan by surfing the net in company time...tut tut please assure me your on a day off today!

DPIT

25th Jun 2001, 17:33

CRP5,

No, I am not having a day off, but considering I was at work at 7AM, and will not probably leave until around 7pm, I was having a little break!!!!

Pontius

25th Jun 2001, 19:50

Rather indicative of the Waterworld residents I think. We do this sort of thing in our own time and our own equipment, using our own money. You do it in BA's time on BA's equipment and paid for by us. And don't give us 0700, most of us had already done half a day's work by then.

You views are welcome (even as a counter arguement) but do it in your own time and stop squandering my profit-share.

Pontius

exeng

26th Jun 2001, 00:48

I agree with Pontious,

Naughty, naughty DPIT and a bit daft to admit it as well.

By the way DPIT I posted some figures re pax per employee (on JMC pay thread) in reponse to your posting. Just wondered whether you have had time to read it and comment.

Please don't be put off by us lot, your input is interesting.

Regards
Exeng

CRP5

26th Jun 2001, 00:56

Exeng and pontious thanks for your support, DPIT you should be sacked..... typical of the double standards flight crew have to put up with from our "managers" missuse of company time and property. YOU MAKE ME SICK!

Don,t even think I feel sorry for you starting at 7AM I had been at work 1hr and 15 mins by then, just a short day today, but give me your internal address I will send you my July Roster 80+ hrs (BLOCK) and 11 day off, moan ,me? Nah I love my job its working with people like you that pi$$ me off.

DPIT, you just can't resist spending our hard earned income(your last post at 14.30 local) , please no more posts in company time or on company equipment.

And re your note on doing away with seniority lists, This IMHO would enable sloppey shouldered managment type co-pilots and Captains to crawl up their bosses arse in return for better command prospects!!

Off to bed now got to back at work 0600!

[This message has been edited by CRP5 (edited 25 June 2001).]

DPIT

26th Jun 2001, 01:20

Well, I am going to bow out of this thread now. I feel that a personal attack, is not justified by my postings.

Double standards of flight crew, missuse of company time and porifts..hmmmm, I am not even going to get into that arguement as that would be lowering myself to your level.

CRP5, you don't have to justify it to me that you are working hard. NO WHERE did I suggest that you, or other pilots do not work hard; you do, we all do, not that you will believe that, so I am not going to even bother!

Oh and pontius...yes, 7AM is correct, and just atfer 7PM tonight. I am not moaning. If I did not want to do those kind of hours, I would not work in my position.

Oh, and both of you...profit share would be nice...something I do NOT get.

Exeng, trying to get some upto date figures, and as soon as I have, I will post. Thank you for your support.

MrUppity

26th Jun 2001, 16:51

Well said CRP5.

Like yourself I too am absolutely sick of these Waterworld suits who claim to have an answer for everything, produce ridiculous ideas, and then disappear when they are found out.
Perhaps DPIT will never explain why he thinks that a senior captain is not worth $210,000 p.a. I know this has all been gone through before, but let me summarise in saying that considering the responsibility involved and the nature and pressures of the work this is actually a surprisingly low figure. Don't forget, to get there this pilot has probably been very poorly paid at the beginning of his/her career.
I always thought that they spent their time over there sending e mail to each other, but obviously PPrune takes up a large part of their day.

BA do need to make a U turn;
Stop screwing the pilots in order to subsidise the Waterside suits.
Appreciate possibly the most productive pilot force of any major airline.
Stop trying to put in cheaper substitutes, like DBA doing BAs flights to CGN. The latest idea seems to be to do away with the Manchester and Birmingham bases.
Pay the pilots the going rate in the world market.
Stop trying to hand authority to the cabin crew.

Maybe when the pilots are kept happy and the other savings are made the shares will end their freefall.

I'm not holding my breath though.

CRP5

26th Jun 2001, 22:11

DPITS if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

I’m sorry you feel offended, “I feel a personal attack is not justified by my postings” Its not the contents of your posts, I love a good debate, its when, where and how you do them, and your lack of comprehension that your doing something wrong is evident, so much so that you continue to post on company equipment later in the afternoon! That’s what truly gets my goat .How can you justify it, perhaps if you didn’t post in company time you could get out the office a little earlier!

DPIT

26th Jun 2001, 23:35

CRP5,

I am not going to get dragged into a written slanging match with people; what is the point? There is no way, that whatever I say, on any subject is going be respected by certain people.

If you look at all my posts, I ask for pilots opinions, and give those opinions the due respect they deserve; Something that I do not think some people do!

With respect to posting on company time; I have a clear conscience. I incurred no extra costs to the company. If you belive I did, I will explain how I didn't (in a personal email...I will not justify myself publically). So any quotes of "spending my profit share", are completely without substance. You obvisouly do not take breaks; is that counted as company time? I am not paid for my breaks, are you? Something that I have posted, but will repeat; I do NOT get a profit share!

I still hold the dream of one day walking into the cockpit as a pilot, but will I be looked down on, not respected, because I have chosen a temporary career in management? If so, I don't think it would be worth it!!!

Exeng, I have got some figures for RPK's for BA, but am having a few problems getting other carriers data to make a proper comparison. I have also just thought, that it will not include the cargo airlines carry. Cargo staff are included in the figures for total employees, but not in RPKS. I will try and come up with an alternative, but cannot think of anything at the moment! I will get back to you. Maybe you would like to email me?

[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 26 June 2001).]

CRP5

27th Jun 2001, 00:05

DPITS .... Touché!! You may already have, but if you haven’t why don't you get a day out the office, come down to EOG and witness a 4-sector day, I know you would always be welcome!

DPIT

27th Jun 2001, 00:19

CRP5,

To be completely honest, I would love to witness what goes on behind the screen (so to speak!). I think that it would be educational for me!

I hopefully, will be doing this soon as I do have some freinds who operate out of LHR.

Thank you for your offer!

exeng

27th Jun 2001, 01:14

DPIT,

I would e-mail you but unfortunately you have shown no e-mail address. You can e-mail me at [email protected]

It might take me a couple of days to reply.

Regards
Exeng

DPIT

27th Jun 2001, 01:32

Exeng,

Appologies for that...email sent!

MrUppity

27th Jun 2001, 14:27

DPIT

I sincerely hope that you can progress to a flying career. When you get there you will realise why a senior captain is worth $210000 p.a.
I am sorry if you feel offended by some of the comments posted, but some of us really are sick about how management inadequacies are ruining our careers, and this frustration is vented when someone such as yourself sticks their head above the wall.
Let's all hope that a u turn will come.

[This message has been edited by MrUppity (edited 27 June 2001).]

The Zombie

27th Jun 2001, 14:53

DPIT,
We pilots are all used to 'continuous feed back' and having to justify our opinions and decisions, sometimes in a kangerou court or legal court. It's a pilot thing....!!

So as a PPRuNer you must expect the same treatment.

I believe that BA pilots are under paid compaired to the market rates and BA have started to lose pilots to other airlines for the first time I can remember!

When I sign for the aircraft I'm personally responsible for it and all those onboard. The financial responsibility to the company is very large and equivalent to many many many hundreds of millions of pounds. Not to mention the good name of the company which is priceless. We are not drivers but add real value to the customers and safely do our jobs every day, every month, every year.

This should be enough justification to support the view that most BA Pilots, like so many others, are under paid IMHO.

I'm sure you would learn a lot from spending a full four sector day in shorhaul and a while in longhaul too. Just ask at LHR to do so and I'm sure you would be made welcome.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz...... :)

[This message has been edited by The Zombie (edited 27 June 2001).]

The Zombie

28th Jun 2001, 14:11

DPIT,
You must be working then ?

ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz........ :)

CRP5

28th Jun 2001, 16:44

ha ha ha

h'AIRBRAIN

28th Jun 2001, 17:47

You lot are really sad having a go at DPIT, working in an office may mean he/she uses their statutory (lunch) break spread bit by bit over the day and replies to your schoolboy tirades as and when. This web page could be left on all day to monitor the site, and with a fixed line rental it will be at no cost.

But some of you (and I mean only some of you)think you are so bl*"dy amusing and the only important thing in an airline that whatever you say MUST BE RIGHT.

Well welcome to the real world, you are just ONE cog in a very big machine. Without all the other larger and smaller cogs you would amont to ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! So bear that in mind the next time your mouth out accelerates your brains.

The Zombie

28th Jun 2001, 20:20

HaHaHa,

h'AIRBRAIN
'Well welcome to the real world, you are just ONE cog in a very big machine. Without all the other larger and smaller cogs you would amount to ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! So bear that in mind the next time your mouth out accelerates your brains'.

This is so true and I agree with you!

But who leads that team and who is completely accountable. Yes the pilots.
Do planes fly by themselves ? NO.

Just a thought and glad to see your reasoned arguement added to the thread. :)

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz......

flaps8

28th Jun 2001, 21:49

Point 1. There are people who live off the backs of others by being paid to do a job that produces no wealth, like bean counters, bank / office workers etc. Then you have the people who create the dosh to pay for the aforemetioned like factory workers, pilots,engineers, etc. Unfotunatley the former almost always dictate terms to the latter.
Point 2. If you take even a small commuter turboprop and fill it with 50 punters , half of them "suits", you have probably got about £100 million in collective liabillity every time you get airborne, if you take into account the hull ,high net worth individuals, etc so the guys and gals at the sharp end are between them being paid £55 - 60 k a year to manage that liabillity , on a daily basis sometimes up to 6 sectors a day in all weathers. I wonder what other profession whould put up with being so grossly under paid.

CRP5

28th Jun 2001, 22:35

Flaps 8 nicely said, AF concord AVERAGE payout per person £1 million, my 737 carries when full 147 pax .... work it out!The average desk jockey at Waterworld would $hit themselves being held ACCOUNTABLE for that much cash! And I mean actually accountable, not wots on paper!

Airbrain nice first post wind up man, now get your head out your ar$e, I welcome DPITS posts ,said it before and I will say it again!

DPIT

29th Jun 2001, 00:00

Wow, away for one day and the replies start to add up!!!

Zombie; Thank you for your post. I can see the Pilots point of view concerning 'constant feedback', and probably with hindsight, could have reacted a little less than I did. I can understand the justification for Pilots being paid a lot more than other transport positions (sorry about if that offends...but could not think of another description), as the major, and VERY simplistic difference is that you can not pull over in the sky. However, (not trying a wind up here!) would you compare pilots to surgeons in terms of responsibility? Not sure how much surgeons earn, so this is an honest question! And yes zombie.....I was working yesterday...and on the p**s last night, hence the lack of posts yesterday!

h'AIRBRAIN...I would have to agree with CRP5. Nice first wind up post. Although your first paragraph does explain my day time posts, I did not want to make that explicit. I stated that I would email the reasons to people privately, but not publically; Somthing that you obvisouly felt you needed to do.

MrUppity and all...I do hope that some day I will be able to join your fraternity, and hopefully will be able to bring knowledge and experience from my management career, that will be useful in my pilot career, and eventually for the company.

With regard to doing a day at either LGW or LHR, I will certainly be doing it. My friends are long-haul...would short haul be more educational?

[This message has been edited by DPIT (edited 28 June 2001).]

CRP5

29th Jun 2001, 00:28

DPITS you certainly know how to get a response, I could not comment on long haul, so would say a 4 sector day short haul would be educational, hopefully the Weather would be cr@p as well, because this is where I think I work hardest (comments welcome)

However once went into MCO in a nasty storm (as a pax)wondered what it would be like to cruise for 7 hours then ready myself for that +RA TSGR wind VRB40G55! plenty of coffee no doubt!!

Alfredo_Garcia

29th Jun 2001, 00:39

DPIT,

Congratulations on keeping your posts level-headed and reasonable.

Good luck with your endeavours towards becoming a commercial pilot - you sound as if you may be an asset.

minogue

29th Jun 2001, 00:44

guys guys guys. Here we go again. I am not a pilot as I have made clear before. I am really sad yet again that when an non-pilot comes on the forum and dares to question a pilot's beliefs he is immediately jumped on and personally abused. Really sad cos so many of you the pilots ideas are good ones and to be honest to many of you demean yourselves by resorting to personal abuse rather than allow your arguements to stand for themselves.

Are pilots worth the money. I find myself in a quandry. 99% (probably more) of the time I perceive the job to be relatively easy indeed possibly if I may say so dull. Certainly this is the view expressed by my many pilot friends and colleagues. The other 1% (or less) of the time, when something goes slightly wrong or worse, a pilot carries a responsibility for other peoples lives that frankly I would rather not have and earn every bean and more.

Ultimately surely it comes down to personal choice. You guys all knew when you went into the career pretty much what the salary packages you could aspire to. If you didnt think the trade off between salary and responsibility was fair then you should have done something else.

Finally can we please cut this us and them attitude towards your colleagues in other roles in the airline. No airline can exist without its pilots its true, equally no airline can exist without its cabin crew, enginers, ground services, commercial people, sales force, ops controllers, accountants, secretaries, cleaners and yes its management. The vast majority of these people do their best each day to build the airline. Treat these people with respect and you will earn their respect, look down upon them or regard yourselves as superior by dint of your job and you will earn the contempt you deserve.

Rongotai

29th Jun 2001, 02:21

I am not a professional pilot, but I have a close relative who is one of your number on short haul out of LGW. I am by training an ethnographic researcher, and I specialise in people at work. I do some research and consultancy work in the airline industry.

Within the past two years I have tracked a surgeon in a large hospital for a number of days, and I have also sat in the jump seat with my relative on a four sector day on two occasions. I treated those days as a research project, although I was just being curious about what my relative does for a living.

My professional conclusion from comparing those two days is - it's a draw. Yes, I believe pilots deserve to be paid as much as surgeons. Although that is an over-simplified statement. I think that pay systems for given professions need to be thought of across a whole career trajectory. Simple annual pay comparisons are too crude a measure.

My main observation for this discussion is that a job description for someone flying short haul in and out of LGW and in European airspace generally gives only a tenuous link to what doing that job is actually like. My notes for one of the days records 86 unanticipated disruptions to the planned flow of work. Some of these were minor and quickly dealt with, but others produced flow on pressures (e.g. "there is a military aircraft in your sector which has just declared an emergency, and we have lost contact with it"). On the worst of the days I observed the surgeon he had 42 such disturbances.

The reason for this difference is that an operating theatre is a closed (and therefore relatively easily controlled) system once the door is closed, but an airliner enters an OPEN system once the door is closed. (This is a double edged comment. My main concern about the way pilots view the world is that they have a predisposition to regard their flight decks as a closed system, and therefore they often discount and underestimate the significance of the feedback loops with the environment).

In any event I now believe that it is impossible for anyone in airline management to make sensible management decisions unless they have direct experience of what actually happens in day to day flight operations. Even if they were to commission someone like me to write a report on it, that would be no adequate substitute for direct personal experience.

In a post of reasonable length it is not possible to explain why I also believe that the empirically demonstrable differences between the work of airline pilots and that of other sorts of 'drivers' is far, far more than just 'they can't pull over and stop'.

pterodactyl

29th Jun 2001, 03:00

Well now.
12 hours work in an office with coffee and potty breaks whenever, and lunch of course; what and when you choose. Then you can relieve the boredom with forays on the internet a well. So how many effective hours are really worked? Most probably about 5 hours if that.
Seems a little bit of prioritisation and organisation would not go amiss. At the end of the day what has been achieved?

[This message has been edited by pterodactyl (edited 28 June 2001).]

h'AIRBRAIN

29th Jun 2001, 12:22

Sorry DPIT, did not mean to spill the beans on how you may or may not spend your day. All I meant to do was put across an example of how someone could use this site and do a meaningful days work.

Good to see some reasoned replies on this thread, so many in the past (and this one was starting to go that way) get to personal.

Back to the point, salary levels are primarily based upon supply and demand. With the pilot profession being one that many people aspire to and can achieve, this means there are many of you around. Lots of you available equals no pressure on salaries to increase to attract you. The surgeon's salary levels maybe higher due to the limited number of people that are available with that level of expertise.

So basically the point is, stop all those aspiring teenagers who want to become pilots and before long your salaies will go up as airline compete to attract you.

If you keep whinging constently like you do then I am sure it will put at least one youngster off. KEEP IT UP!

exeng

29th Jun 2001, 17:06

Hairybrain,

With regard to your comment, <Lots of you available equals no pressure on salaries to increase to attract you>

I suggest you do a little more research on this matter before you make such statements, this weeks copy of Flight International magazine will help give you a little insight.

Regards
Exeng

loaded1

30th Jun 2001, 13:55

Yeah, well hairbrain: why do I suspect that you just have to be a) a BA manager from flight ops or b) a man with a grudge? Could it be the utter factual inaccuracy of what you are saying allied to the gleeful arrogance with which you say it?

It's not that we can't take contrary opinions, more that we don't suffer fools gladly. BA's euphamistically named and smartingly arrogantly run "hold pool" is all but dry. Airlines throughout Europe are looking at a building shortage of both experienced candidates and worthy entrants to flight schools. Not that the facts should stand in the way of a good polemic from you, of course.

Why should this be, one has to wonder? I am so very gratified to see the eminent good sense and strong self esteem in young people today. In our airline, the younger pilots just wont take the c@@@p that's being handed down anymore. They look to a fair pay settlement and a sense of respect from the airline that reflects their responsibilities, training and the commitment that they made to get where they are. And guess what, all you free market thinkers out there: the market works! Many I have spoken to say that if these things aren't forthcoming not only will they leave, but they have made plans to achieve it.

As for new joiners: it's great for the profession that there has been a stream of motivated, decent and dedicated young people who want to come into it. Refreshingly, however, things have changed there too.

Young people making a career choice are, and have to be, highly aware of remuneration, lifestyle and prospects. Property values and the decline in state funding for any aspect of life demand it. Equally, it is a sellers market for them: someone with the skills and dedication to do this job has a lot of choice.

So, selling them the deal we have had: work up to 30% more for effective pay declines in real terms, and enjoy declining terms and respect from the airline on an annual basis just won't work any more. A "treadmill with a view" lifestye and being treated with disdain is a formula for a recruitment problem and yes, the word has got out to those young people and they are responding. Sure, we get people so motivated to fly that they join anyway, BUT, the crucial element is that they immediately get involved to change it for the better. The most motivated attenders at BALPA meetings that I have seen are the young pilots with 20 plus years of their careers to go.

So, as things across Europe are showing, the worm has turned, and this can, paradoxically, only be a good thing for both the profession and, in our case, for our airline itself too.

If BA has to make a U turn it can start with its entire ethos in the way it treats the people who make it happen, pilots yes, but all staff too. Southwest airlines could teach BA some very useful lessons!