Pay Structure (Oz Ag)

[Big Nasty]

What is everyones thoughts on contractor vs employee for pilots ?

[maxspeed]

Have done both at diferent times in different situations and weather you are on 10% day/12% night plus weekly retainer full time or 10% day/12% night plus daily rate casual or 18%-20% contract at the end of the day THEY ALL WORK OUT VERY CLOSE AND THAT IS FACT! (thats what mum says anyway)

[biggles190]

On contract, you bcome the contractor which means if you stuff up as a pilot, your number 1 in the firing line.
Best to check the history on this and what happened to the pilots involved and the fines they received.
I'm sticking to a paid pilot thanks!

[camel jockey]

So bigs, if you stay as a payed pilot whats a fair deal,the 10% plus retainer.Its not a bad deal especially when you start working large capacity machines.

[burnercan]

Contract sounds like a good idea at the time and may well be but wait till something goes wrong and the operator wants to get out of it your left to carry the can....Oh and if you think that you contract with the operator will cover your backside try it in court and see how far you get (cant make agreements against common law)...not to mention that at one time in the not to distant past you as contract pilot could be held resposible for the excess on insurance. Oh and one more thing the ato ???? :} ask them for a ruling on your contact setup if your so sure it is legal supplying your services and a crash helmet.
As for wages what choice is there apart from the award rates unless your one of the long white cloud variety of pilot who can do everything cheaper than us aussies...and in the process help to drag the pay rates and conditions of the industry.....down :}

[maxspeed]

Burnercan, how little do you know, as a kiwi I can assure you that I work no cheaper than any aussie, and infact do you know that one of our fellow pilots that has being most proactive in keeping rates and wages up for employes and contractors alike in recent times is very much a kiwi, so i would hold my tongue if I were you bro:hmm: :hmm:
CD

[Big Nasty]

I did not mean for it to turn into a blue , I have heard so many different opinions on this and hoped thru this forum could find the best common ground between operators and pilots
There is lots to consider

[biggles190]

I like the award, 10% spraying, 8% spreading, 12.5% night which is worth every cent plus retainer.
If you go contract, make sure you go through a lawyer and accountant.

At the AAAA's conference in the pilots seminar, they do a talk on contract.
It's worth listening to every second.

[burnercan]

Apologies max speed if i offended u but maybe you can explain to me and others (unless i got the wrong end of the story) why is it in the land of the "leng whit clud" that pilots get paid less percentage to fly a walter, less percentage again to fly cresco than a 400 fletcher ?? maybe im missing something here as pauline once said please explain:}
And dont take it personally just getting a little friendly cross tasman banter going after all you folks keep kicking our ass at rugby:eek:

[currawong]

Percentage can be a problem with unscrupulous employers. (As can everything for that matter)

It is easy for a line pilot to keep track of how many hectares are going out.

It can be hard to know exactly what each client is being charged for those hectares and therefore what one's percentage is.

Also, if the operator goes cheap to try and score more market share, pilot percentage suffers through no fault of the pilot.

Hard ones to work around, food for thought.

[Turboman]

Not so hard to work around. If you not happy find another employer. An experienced pilot's market at the moment, I would have thought.

Good pilots and good employers are always few and far between.

If you want good, secure money and a good employer, aim to be a bloody good pilot. For those who don't know what that means here are a few suggestions; trustworthy, punctual, safety conscious, friendly and helpful to fellow staff and clients, team players, look after their aircraft.

If your an operator and you can never get good pilots chances are you pay sh%$ and are an ar$^hol@ to work for. Having five pilots on standby just in case it rains or for that once in a century locust plague will not make for happy people. Try to appreciate that these people are here to help you make money, so look after them.

At the end of the day we are all on the same team trying to win the same game.

[burnercan]

Well said turbo man very wise words there and never truer words spoken

:) :}

[M18bloke]

:) :D Turboman has a long & successful career ahead of him in Ag with an attitude like that.

[maxspeed]

Well said turboman. Money is not everything in a job. But it's kind of like saying "you don't need alcohol to have a good time........ But it sure f@#king helps!":E

[Agwaggon]

This one can go around and around and around. The ATO has there criteria for the definition of a contractor. All the states have there's for the defining of a contractor for workers comp purposes. Also years ago the NSW goverment had there's in regard to payroll tax. None are the same!!
All of us both pilots and operators have twisted things around a bit on this one to suit ourselves at the time. And most of us are guilty of a bit of tunnel vision here as well.
OK lets have a hands up out there for any contract pilot who is truly a full contractor responsible for everything to do with the job and has to where the consequences (financially) of his actions.
All I saw then was bums dissapearing down burrows. (mine one of them)
The reality is guys, what we are are pilots working for an operator for a while on a contract rate. True or false? And that is the way both sides of the fence want it to be.
Mrs Maxspeed has advised her son well as I agree there is not a lot of difference in the short term in the income. The difference as we all know is what that tax does to that amount under the payg system, isn't it. And also the claimability of the genuine expenses for a contract pilot operating a company is a hell of a lot simpler.
I think this is an industry problem for both operators and pilots and I wish it could be attacked that way by the AAAA's. I certinantly don't like the division that appears to be occuring on this. It's a little scary actually.
One thing I'm sure of is, when ever I worked for any company as a contract pilot I was still WORKING FOR THAT COMPANY and for any operator to try and ditch a pilot as a contractor when some sh#t hits the fan is as weak as pi##.
Now what about the withholding of part of the persentage of the pilots income rate on contract guys that I'm hearing about??? I havn't ever been at the pointy end on this one but some mates of mine have and they are not happy campers.
And don't forget boys and girls the beautiful Agwaggon is the MG of the ag industry.

[CRUZN]

I dont really care for opinions on this one, if you cant satisfy the three tests set by the ATO no amount of legal lettering will turn a grey area into a white area. If you just front up with helmet in hand, dont bill the client direct, cant make good a mistake, then brace your self, your a contactor only in your eyes. This area extends to workers comp as well and this is where the operator will cop it in the neck. A false belief to date is the Operator has been comfortable to embrace pilots as Contractors to date knowing that should the ATO have a look the only penalties that will be handed out will effect the pilots pocket and not his... the trap is the ATO will view the payments to the pilot as 'net' not 'gross' with all the ensuing penalties, back tax, interest carving a nice hole in his supa.
If you really think that you have it in the bag ask the ATO for an opinion and if you satify them that you really are a Contractor then walk around with a big grin :D so we know who you are and find out how you did it.

[burnercan]

my thoughts and my accoutants thoughts exactly cruzn for all the people out there that think they are grininning go get a ruling from the ATO or see what happens when things go pear shaped and u get dropped like a hot spud all of the above will wipe the smile off your face:}

[Agwaggon]

Yep I agree Cruzn.
Nothing wrong with opinions though. Someone in the ATO will have one.
My point was however that there never has been any contractors in our industry! Only pilots working short time or seasonaly on a contract rate.
No it probably won't pass the ATO test ( in most cases anyhow).
That contract rate % was never designed to cover "making good a mistake"
or to cover the insurances to cover such things if you could get it.
I wonder how many "contractors" are sitting behing a computer terminal down at the ATO offices?:rolleyes:

[Angus]

So, what are pilots worth? And what can operators afford to pay? There is a big difference between the award and and the going percentages, no matter what mum says.

[biggles190]

When the ag pilot standard was introduced it was supposed to be similar to a top airline pilots wages. Some how it did not keep up with the heavy metal wages as it was originay intended. Considering what the mines are paying and what an ag pilot gets for the responsibility he carries, we are getting the pointy end of the pineapple.
Sadly, the rates operators get have not increased much in the last 20 years either let alone adding in drought and ground rig operators who are prepared to go broke.:{

[Agwaggon]

Thanks Angus. I wasn't goint to let this one die just like that either!
This Is now broarding out to a more general debate about Ag flying income. Good because this is one of the biggest issues facing the industry at the moment. It's just that I'm not sure the industry as a whole has realised it yet.
When I first started in the industry in the early eighties Ag drivers were considered to be pretty well paid by people inside and outside of the industry.
I could show you example after example of comparasons of me against friends and family of mine in the yearly income department.
I was way ahead,and life for the future of raising and educating a family and doing pretty well generally was looking good.
As hard as I try now I cannot see that picture. What I find now talking to guys is that they think that they are doing pretty well perticularly when comparing to other jobs in the bush. In that regard they are probably right. But boys the bush is buggered!! If you compare youself now to the wider Australian working community you are in for a big shock. A lawn mower man on the coast is knocking you off and he doesn't have anything like the stress and the risks that we do.
Another way that I kept up with how I was going generally and compared to the wider community was always having a Sydney based accountant. Twenty years ago he said "Agwaggon you are doing very well mate." Ten years ago he said "mate that was ok but you would do better if you had some help from your wife." (income help he ment!) Five years ago he shook his head and said" this is not very good mate".
Those statements are pretty much word for word as I remember them and he was 100% correct.
The bottom line is if you want to make a living this way in the future you better bloody well love it to death, because your not going to make a lot of bugs bunny in it. Thats a pretty hard thing to do after a few years and a few funerals!
I liked Turbo's comments. They are right on the money and very simple logic. The thing is though that Ag pilots are generally in it for the money. There are exceptions sure but as a generalization thats a fact. To expand further they are generally a bunch of money hungry mercenary pricks! And to expand further again do you know what most of the money hungry mercenery ones eventually become ???
Operators ladies and gentlemen!
So whilst Turbo is very right in his thoughts there are precious few of either on either side of the fence.

[M18bloke]

currawong quote "if the operator goes cheap to try and score more market share, pilot percentage suffers" :{

No it does not. You just earn less per hour flown as does the operator. pilot % does not change.

If the market share is taken off a ground rig it is income the pilot would not otherwise have.

[Big Nasty]

Agwaggon you sound bitter and twisted about the whole industry maybe if its that bad go and do something else:{

[Agwaggon]

Again as a gereralization only, aeroplanes cannot compete with ground rigs so I'ts a pure waste of time even trying. If I was flying in an area where groung rigs were making very serious inroads into the market share then knowing what I know now lads I would look for another area to make a life in.!
And well Nasty yeh maybe your right. But its probably my job now to be that way. When I was a young lad in this business I used to think that most of all the old salts were a bit bitter and twisted as well. Go figure!!
I often do do other things though and that is how I got my head out of the sandpit and saw what was passing us all bye out there.
I can make a couple of very honest personal statements here. Firstly, there does come a time when we have all had enough of something and then It's best to move on. My time is not far away thats true, but i"m not there yet!
Second, this industry is not what it was in many ways in fact in most ways. Some of that is great as the industry was in big trouble there for a while. but some of it is not so great. This is a job that should be very highly paid. and the reality is that it now isn't. If you guys don't believe me then I will dig around and show you those comparisons I was talking about earlier. Believe me they are real.
If you want to do this because you really love it and money is not part of the equation then the holes are starting to line up for you, because that is where things are rapidly moving.
Problem is application prices havn't increased a hell of a lot over the past 25 years or so and the operating costs have what??? And so I think operators are doing things a lot tougher than years ago. Catch 22 hey.

[CRUZN]

Problem is application prices havn't increased a hell of a lot over the past 25 years or so and the operating costs have what??? And so I think operators are doing things a lot tougher than years ago. Catch 22 hey.[/QUOTE]


One of the problems is that commodity prices have not increased over time with say the CPI.
Commodity price will always reflect or use as a base the cheapest countries of production. Some countries will too get rid of their produce subsidise the farmers the difference between the price it can be sold for and the cost of production...and its not just the Yanks...Europe does it for the reasons of a more social outcome, to stop a mass migration from the country to the city because the infrastructure would never handle it...look out Sydney...we are probably our own worst enemy..it p_sses me off when as a gesture to an emerging economy we assist by giving them technoledgy knowing full well in ten or so years because they have a cheaper production cost they will cause us anguist in the world market.
Its no wonder as part of the free trade ageement with the US one of the crucial parts of it was copywrite protection for 25 years.
Unless we protect our knowledge base and stop sharing so freely our technolodgy we will continue to see declining or low based commodity prices and we will continue to see lower potential for profits which in-turn effects the service industry and our personal returns.
A trend towards Global Economy doesn't support Capitalisim.

[Angus]

Whoa!

Meanwhile, the rest of Australia keeps right on booming...

[Big Nasty]

Easy CRUZN things arnt that bad !

If you all read the industry web page maybe the contract job except in special cases is out the window

As for being highly paid maybe to act like a complete aviation pro deserves being rewarded as such if not well you know the story its the monkeys and peanuts theory:confused:

Time to stop being cropdusters and move on to being proffesional pilots and operators

The time for talking about this is over its ACTION time

Maybe anon forum on the AAAA web would be the way to go?????

[jon s gull]

When the ag pilot standard was introduced it was supposed to be similar to a top airline pilots wages. Some how it did not keep up with the heavy metal wages as it was originay intended. .:{

I think you will find that most airline guys other than qantas , in Aus, are on a reduced wage also. Supply and demand in their case.
Many entry level airline recruits are on very low wages and after all the expense of an atpl and endorsements.

For me the job is about lifestyle, not just pay, and I still consider the total lifestyle package to be good. There are however less jobs at my end of Ag, and I am still Interested in promoting the industry. There are countries where aerial ag has disapeared entirely and the wrong attitude could still see that happen here.

[Angus]

I take it most full time blokes are happy with what their now on, whilst most contractors aren't real impressed at the prospect of being forced, by way of current tax laws, to accept the casual award. True or false?

[Agwaggon]

Angus, I think you are getting close to one angle of discontent. So I guess, true.
If a pilot is on full time then he often looks at the peak time as a time when he is maybe a tad under top dollar but the quiter times when he is collecting a retainer for doing pretty much sfa as a evening out time!
Who can quote the Ag one, say 3ooo hrs + pilot retainer is it about $550 or $600 or so?? And also I get the feeling that a lot of operators are paying $1000 per week or so to keep good reliable guys on standby. Is that true? It's not openly talked about at all so this forum could air those things without any backlash against any perticular pilot.
Come on speak up guys. I mean I do know pilots that have been payed that sort of retainer years ago so I'm assuming that it's still common practice now??
Am I right or wrong?
Next is the $149 per day thing against the weekly retainer for the short timers who are asked in to help for a month or so. Is that adequate ?? Expenses to and fro the job??
$550 per week / 7 = $78 per day?? I havn't worked on the award now for many many years so I will need a hand with the correct figures people. But I don't think I'm that far off.
So how much do you guys think that lawn mower man I know on the coast is pulling in a day?
There is a guy pulls up next to my place every now and then and washes my neighbours yapping bloody poodle. I chated him one day, what do you think he pulls in a day?
Ok OK OK I concede. If you want to wash doggies for a living then go and wash doggies for a living. We want to fly that true. But lets bring a little relevance into things.
So are these award rates on or near the money. Especially for seasonal guys??
To all you Aussie Aggies out there I can't think of a better way or place than this anonymous forum to air this one!!
C188

[maxspeed]

Awards can be viewed here. http://www.wagenet.gov.au/WageNet/Search/view.asp?docid=263690&query=&page=32&quickview=Y

[Angus]

Agwaggon, looks like its just you and I old mate! I hope not...
The figures are close enough. Heres what 5 mins with a brain tells me, using the correct figures:

Casual Award 18%
100hrs/month $17500 $21600
66hrs/month $13100 $14400
33 hrs/month $9000 $7200

Before tax. 10% added to casual award for super. Based on $1200/hr machine. No account made for workers comp. 18% to average out the tight bottoms from the Champions. You know who you are!

It breaks even at around 50hrs/month; if your busy or doing more than $1200/hr the percentage is a long way in front.

If an operator insists on using the casual award I reckon he should consider the following: the operator pays all costs associated with employing (he is now an employee, people) the casual pilot. This includes travel from the employees normal place of residence to the work site and return, suitable accomodation whilst on the job, and per dium (per dium is a living away from home allowance, to cover food and phone calls, comonly paid in industries involving regular travel away from home, provided for under current Australian tax laws as a daily cash payment, fully tax deductible to the employer, currently stands at around $60 - $80 a day).

Tell me I'm wrong. Go on. Do it.

[Agwaggon]

Thanks Angus.

Well I guess that means that if we were to ease away from contract rates because of all the previous reasons stated here, then I for one am not even slightly interested in $149 per day.
I think about 230-250 would be closer to the mark and thats every day your there if you come in as a casual. Of course operators will then insist to putting us on the full time rate I guess.

Angus and I can't be the only two in OZ interisted in this surely guys.

[flyag2]

Interesting points of view on the pros and cons of contract v fulltime.One of the reasons i went from fulltime to contract was that i got sick of the retainer being seen as wages for which a 40hr week was expected. And with the award at the time being just over the $450 a week dirty and a short season area it was financially a wast of time especially in that i was stuck not able to take other better paying work locally out of season.