Couple of silly questions

[Karen83]

1. Currently there are 3 en- route centres. When Manchester moves to Prestwick, will it remain as Manchester? Or will the two be merged leaving 2 en- routes, Swanwick and Scottish?

2. Can you define what an airfield is for me? Are they just airports not owned by BAA?

Thanks x

[chevvron]

Bet she can't map-read either.

[BDiONU]

1. Currently there are 3 en- route centres. When Manchester moves to Prestwick, will it remain as Manchester? Or will the two be merged leaving 2 en- routes, Swanwick and Scottish?

2. Can you define what an airfield is for me? Are they just airports not owned by BAA?

Thanks x

There are currently 4 NERL centres:
LACC at Swanwick
TC at West Drayton
MACC at Manchester
and
ScOACC at Prestwick

TC is moving to LACC and they'll merge, MACC is moving to ScOACC and they'll merge leaving NATS with its 2 centre strategy.

An airfield is an aerodrome is an airport is a whatever name you want to give it, nothing to do with who the operator is.

HTH
BD

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

But an airPORT is an aerodrome with customs facilities...

[BDiONU]

But an airPORT is an aerodrome with customs facilities...
really? Wow I never knew that :) Thanks HD

BD

[Brian81]

With greatest respect to my close colleague HD, I'm not too sure that is the case...

An Aerodrome (as defined in the ANO & MATS 1):

Any area of land or water designed, equipped, set apart or
commonly used for affording facilities for the landing and departure
of aircraft.

And in the Aerodrome licencing manual:

Any area of land or water designed, equipped, set apart or
commonly used for affording facilities for the landing and departure
of aircraft and includes any area or space, whether on the ground,
on the roof of a building or elsewhere, which is designed,
equipped or set apart for affording facilities for the landing and
departure of aircraft capable of descending or climbing vertically,
but shall not include any area the use of which for affording
facilities for the landing and departure of aircraft has been
abandoned and has not been resumed.


It doesnt specify the difference between a customs aerodrome and a non-customs aerodrome. I think the whole airport / airfield / aerodrome name thing is all to do with local slang tendancies and language variations.

I have an Aerodrome Control Licence, at a customs aerodrome / airport whatever you want to call the place. I have my own name for it, ending *** hole.

Personally, I'd define an AIRFIELD as a grass runway aerodrome.

heehee.

Traaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[I'm not joking sir]

I was always taught that there is no such thing as an airfield. It's a bit like talking about "planes".

[rab-k]

Nobody I've asked seems to know the answer to this, so I'll chance my luck here:

What will the combined ScACC and MACC airspace be referred to as?

Will it remain the Manchester FIR and Scottish FIR/UIR both controlled from the same Ops Room, or will it become a combined Prestwick FIR/UIR?

The new centre is dubbed Prestwick as opposed to 'Scottish', but it can't become POACC as that already exists in the form of the Prestwick Oceanic Area Control Centre at ScOACC.

Also, what if the Dublin TMA goes to Prestwick under the proposed FAB?

Could a possible option be to mirror the Canadians who have their Gander Domestic FIR and Gander Oceanic FIR at a single unit, referred to simply as Gander Center? After all I understand that the ocean will eventually be in the new building also. (Swanwick is simply London Centre also).

Will it become known as just Prestwick Centre, with a Prestwick Domestic FIR and Prestwick OACC controlling the Shanwick OCA?

Not about to lose any sleep over it, just curious... but hey, what's in a name?

:8

[MancBoy]

Manchester FIR ??


Where's that then.

London FIR and Scottish FIR are the only two we have on the mainland.

[Kestrel_909]

After all I understand that the ocean will eventually be in the new building also. (Swanwick is simply London Centre also).



Must be a bloody big building then!:}


Sorry

[rab-k]

Oops !

Sorry, got carried away! (or should be carried off, one or t'other!)

I did of course mean that part of the London FIR controlled by MACC. ("Manchester FIR" - duh!).

:\

[Bern Oulli]

You mean what used to be the Preston FIR (it's near Manchester, well, sort of) before London pinched it?

[foghorn]

It's a bit like talking about "planes".

Like the one when a pilot had a journo filming a documentary on his flight deck. She was provide a commentary for the camera - "planes" this, "planes" that, "planes" the other.

"Madam", the pilot responds in his best RAF voice, "planes are used by carpenters; this is an Aircraft".

[Jerricho]

So is an Airplane like an Airguitar?

[Gonzo]

Airports are busy, like Heathrow.

Airfields are quiet, like Gatwick and Manchester.

:E

[keithl]

Karen: I've always thought an airfield was military and an airport civilian. My reason for this is that when I was in the RAF both controllers and pilots used the abbreviation 'field.. Examples; "identified 30 miles north of the field..." or "field in sight". I know the official documents talk about "Military Aerodromes", but no-one would have used aerodrome, or airport when referring to a military airfield. I noticed the difference when I went civvie a few years ago.

[ukatco_535]

Airports have at least a dual runway operation, and are only the 6th or 7th busiest dual runway airport in the world - like Heathrow.

Airfields use single runway, but are the busiest single runway operator in the world - like Gatwick.

:E :E :E

[Dances with Boffins]

Down South 'ere, the difference is:-

airport = "there is the port"
airfield = "there is a field":}

[niknak]

Some moons ago, I was at CATC doing an OJTI renewal course.
There we were, the 10 of us, in the coffee lounge discussing how much we were enjoying the course, war stories, shipwrecks and murders, when one of the many cadets in the same room approached us and said "we've been half listening to you guys, and we assume you are all "real ATCOs", what's it like?"...
The rest is available to gullible persons, for a fee.......

[Gonzo]

At airfields, such as Gatwick, an ATCO might speak to maybe 60-70 a/c in one hour.

At airports, such as Heathrow, an ATCO might speak to 120+ a/c an hour. :E

[PPRuNe Radar]

Any truth in the rumour that the new LHR Tower has been constructed from ivory ?? :)

[spekesoftly]

Karen: I've always thought an airfield was military and an airport civilian. My reason for this is that when I was in the RAF both controllers and pilots used the abbreviation 'field.. Examples; "identified 30 miles north of the field..." or "field in sight". I know the official documents talk about "Military Aerodromes", but no-one would have used aerodrome, or airport when referring to a military airfield. I noticed the difference when I went civvie a few years ago.

Whilst I can see what you're getting at, I don't think you can entirely base any military/civil distinction between Airfield and Airport on the phraseology you quote. As I'm sure you know, the same phrases you quote are also regularly used in civvie ATC, and "field in sight" appears in CAP 413 as an example of both military and civil phraseology.

[Gonzo]

Radar, yes. Ivory worked very well at Stansted and Gatwick, and they like it.

We think it's unsafe and will decrease our capacity....:E

[keithl]

Speke: Yes, they weren't the best examples, but I was just "dashing off" a quick reply. I thought later it might have made the point better by comparing the mil "diversion airfield" with the civvy "alternate airport". I'm just recalling conversational usage rather than R/T. In conversation, (Caveats: In my time / In my part of the Air Force) no-one would have used "Aerodrome / Airport" in conversation. Only "Airfield".

[spekesoftly]

keithl,

As another 'ex-mil', similar vintage, I entirely agree with your comment about 'conversational usage'.

(Mind you, my parents, both ex-WWII and now well into their 80s, still quaintly refer to my place of work as the 'drome !! )

[classicwings]

But surely Gonzo you are basically saying the same thing to Heathrow inbounds whereas Gatwick Directors (never mind Essex Radar!!) are giving more varied instructions to inbound a/c?:ok:

[Gonzo]

I'm talking about real ATC, that done from a control tower, not a supplement to TCAS done in front of a radar screen in a big bunker..... :E:E:E

[classicwings]

Goodness, thats abit scathing towards radar control isnt it?! I suppose they have the advantage fatter pay cheques at the end of the month but they might have alittle difficulty in identifying what an aircraft looks like.....

Surely though if you have been at the Heathrow VCR prior to '93 before TC sucked up your radars then you would have had a radar rating!:E

[ukatco_535]

At airfields, such as Gatwick, an ATCO might speak to maybe 60-70 a/c in one hour.

At airports, such as Heathrow, an ATCO might speak to 120+ a/c an hour.

So dividing those numbers by the number of runways in use (and bearing in mind one controller per runway); You are admitting that Gatwick is at the very least, as busy as Heathrow :E

[classicwings]

At airfields, such as Gatwick, an ATCO might speak to maybe 60-70 a/c in one hour.

At airports, such as Heathrow, an ATCO might speak to 120+ a/c an hour.

So dividing those numbers by the number of runways in use (and bearing in mind one controller per runway); You are admitting that Gatwick is at the very least, as busy as Heathrow

Certainly confirms the fact that Gatwick is the busiest single operation runway in the world.

[Gonzo]

I surely hope that they do not have fatter pay cheques!:oh:

Move Approach back at the tower, that's the way forward. Would sort out the LL Approach staffing problem!:ok:

You are admitting that Gatwick is at the very least, as busy as Heathrow
Not if you read my post. :confused:

[throw a dyce]

I say Gonzo,aren't you EGLL tower only types just glorified car park attendants.:ouch:
At least you guys know how to say ''Clearded to Land''.
Ever validated a Radar rating working in Class A,D,F,G airspace?:hmm:
There are people who still validate tower and approach radar,north of Watford.

[classicwings]

Ok Gonzo, well I dont actually work for NATS or Air Traffic in any sense (failed applicant twice!:ugh: ) but i am aware that the NATS payscale is based more on your time in the job (should know as my old man has worked for NATS for ther past god knows how many eons) so I take that back about approach controllers being on 'fatter paycheques' Although you could argue that radar has 'different' sorts of challenges. I have seen both sides of the operation both at Heathrow VCR and with your colleagues at TC and I can see that ensuring necessary vortex wake spacings would be pretty tricky on radar but remembering the names of all the holding points at Heathrow from a visual control point of view would be a complete nightmare! :E

[Gonzo]

Finally, a bit of banter! :D

North of Watford...bit cold up there for us sophisticated southerners!

All those non-squawkers, non-radios.....no thanks, you can keep 'em! :ok:

[classicwings]

I say Gonzo,aren't you EGLL tower only types just glorified car park attendants.:ouch:
At least you guys know how to say ''Clearded to Land''.
Ever validated a Radar rating working in Class A,D,F,G airspace?:hmm:
There are people who still validate tower and approach radar,north of Watford.

Yer like you probably fall into this category if you an ATCO and you dont work for NATS...... I think I would much prefer working for a Private organsation which is how it used to be in the good old days where you will atleast be able to obtain aerodrome and approach ratings rather than being sent like a robot to CATC in Bournemouth to and up working in a Air Traffic factory! :ok:

[throw a dyce]

Classicwings.
There are quite a few Nats units were Tower and Approach are the norm.Bristol,Cardiff,Birmingham,Manchester,Belfast,Glasgow,E dinburgh,Aberdeen,and Gibraltar spring to mind.Don't know about Aberporth?
Everyone is paid much less than Heathrow,and bar one (Manch) less than Gatwick.However ATC wise it's much more interesting than the sausage machines in the South.
Gonzo,
You Southern softies should listen to a certain Billy Connolly when he says there is no such thing as bad weather,just the wrong kind of clothes.We do have SSR and radios North of Watford you know.Probably invented them:ok:

[Gonzo]

Ah, but do you have colour TV?

[funfly]

An airport is a big airfield
An airfield is what you say is 'in sight' then you can see the runways, unless you are at an airport when you say "runway in sight"
An aerodrome is something Spitfires used to land on

[chevvron]

Thow a dyce - you missed out Farnborough and Southampton. Aberporth airfield is FISO but NATS still supply staff to Aberporth (Cardigan Bay) Range Control via (I think) Cardiff. These controllers also do range control in the Hebrides range.

[classicwings]

Classicwings.
There are quite a few Nats units were Tower and Approach are the norm.Bristol,Cardiff,Birmingham,Manchester,Belfast,Glasgow,E dinburgh,Aberdeen,and Gibraltar spring to mind.Don't know about Aberporth?
Everyone is paid much less than Heathrow,and bar one (Manch) less than Gatwick.However ATC wise it's much more interesting than the sausage machines in the South.
Gonzo,
You Southern softies should listen to a certain Billy Connolly when he says there is no such thing as bad weather,just the wrong kind of clothes.We do have SSR and radios North of Watford you know.Probably invented them:ok:

Point taken throw a dyce, I am aware of NATS units where tower and approach still exist but I think my bite was focused more towards current trainee cadets prospects of been able to get but aerodrome and approach ratings. Seems now you are streamed either on an approach or area course following your initial training on the course but from what I can gather after signing my life away on my initial declaration there is currently little chance of being sent to anywhere else other than Swanwick!:::oh:

[whiz]

I was under the impression that the term airfield was used in the early days of grass operations. Essentially the airfield was just that, a big flattish field, this meant that the aircraft (planes) could take off into wind whichever direction it was coming from.