Pilot Brits abroad: Why not come back to the UK? [Archive]

autosync

27th Mar 2006, 20:33

Italian and French manufacturers seem to be doing fine with it; the Agusta Westland EH101 is doing well also
You can’t blame JAR for high fuel and insurance costs.

You don't get a JAR license by sending off a stamped addressed envelope like you can in other countries you have to work hard for it, its a professional qualification, and not something that you can "bang out" in a summer off (Now I know this is going to wind up pilots from other countries, but screw it, that’s the way it is, and that’s what keeps us in a job)

People love to come on here and complain about how difficult it is to get the JAR license but don’t complain about the decent wages that they can expect.
And that all comes down to Supply and demand, if the thousands of HAI grads came flooding back, what do you think would happen to these wages?

All the time here, we hear the tired old "It’s not fair" line...
It is fair... Its simple, you put the work in you get the license...
What’s not fair about that?
Who knows you may even learn something new, that may make you a slightly better pilot, I know that i did.

What would be unfair is if they change the rules to accommodate the whiners and the big business who would love nothing more then to bring people in who would work for a lot less.
Now how would that be fair to the people who have jumped through all of the hoops?

Some rules are silly, but at the end of the day most of them are safety related, and every Authority is guilty of that to some extent.

Heliport

27th Mar 2006, 20:50

You don't get a JAR license by sending off a stamped addressed envelope like you can in other countries you have to work hard for it

So in which countries do you claim you can get a licence 'by sending off a stamped addressed envelope' (or similar)??

:confused:

HillerBee

27th Mar 2006, 20:56

It hasn't got anything to do with JAA or not. It's just different in Europe in general.

The market is basically closed, it's who you know and not what you know.

On the other hand, for various reasons you fly a lot less in Europe than say the USA. Yes, the pay is much better but the cost of living is also very high.

The way of living is different, for me the standard is just higher here. So I like the UK. Glad to be here.

MD900 Explorer

27th Mar 2006, 20:57

Just another slant....:eek:

New CPL graduates with 200 hours as we all know have to be very lucky to find jobs, so anyone with a J1 Visa, i would suggest you use it. There is also the other question about what type of flying goes on in the UK..?

Well, there is the OffShore option and there is the VIP market. Police and EMS (Which is another niche market) with little utility flying jobs. All of these require a few hours under the belt, which the new graduate is unlikely to get into, unless they have golden balls.

The remaining shortfall is fed by the ex-military chaps with the experience and therefore makes it hard for the new graduate to be lured back and remain within the UK market.

A definate supply and demand situation withe the old chicken and egg scenario going on. Lets not get sucked into the old JAR argument of who has the hardest exams etc..:rolleyes:

As he stands back and waits...:{

MD :ok:

autosync

27th Mar 2006, 21:29

So in which countries do you claim you can get a licence 'by sending off a stamped addressed envelope' (or similar)??

:confused:

If you want to convert an ICAO licence to an FAA one, all you have to basically do is turn up on the doorstep of your nearest FSDO with licence and logbook in hand.

User freindly, maybe, but not fair on the guy whos job you may be taking

Heliport

27th Mar 2006, 21:46

Assuming what you say is correct -

If someone has qualified for an ICAO licence, what do you say is wrong with the FAA recognising that qualification and issuing an FAA licence on the strength of it?

Do you think licensing requirements should be used to protect jobs? (Or should that be the role of some other government department?)

autosync

27th Mar 2006, 22:08

If someone has qualified for an ICAO licence, what do you say is wrong with the FAA recognising that qualification and issuing an FAA licence on the strength of it?

Do you think licensing requirements should be used to protect jobs? (Or should that be the role of some other government department?)

Every profession has its own standards, and if you want to work in that profession in a different jurisdiction you are going to have to sit all of the exams that the next guy did, just so every one is on an equal footing.

It’s not a cartel, it’s a professional standard.
It may not necessarily make you better at flying the machine then a guy with thousands of hours long lining or gold seal instructor etc etc.
But why should standards be changed to accommodate those people those who wish to work in a different jurisdiction? Or the large companies hoping to get cheaper labour?
It keeps the playing field level.

And besides to the best of my knowledge there is no other government department that can legally prevent someone with all of the right paperwork from working in a country.
So licensing is the only way of the industry legally policing itself.

170'

27th Mar 2006, 22:47

Ok…. I’m not really a Limey, but got a Limey passport as well as Yank and Frog…So technically I’m a Limey/Frog /Yank or vice versa? I live in Paris and my kids won’t speak English unless I beat them into it.

I’m married to a frog, whose half frog and half wop (Sicilian) but more frog than wop because she was born and raised in Paris. After her half wop, half frog parents moved to Paris is 1950…

When my wop/frog ‘in laws’ arrived in France. A job was hard to come by for father-in law, because the Frog/Frogs in Marseilles said “ Your not Frog” to which my father-in –law replied, “ here’s my Frog passport” you stupid Frog ****…or something similar….

Having been raised in a frog Private school in Tunis, Father-in-law was and is, in his dotage. More frog than General De Gaulle….. Although with a distinct Sicilian accent.

My brother-in law is a Wop/Wop (Napoli) married to my wife’s sister, who’s a Wop/Frog but more wop than frog…I can’t tell you why, just don’t know! She has also spent her entire life in Paris, but only speaks French if no one is around who speaks Italian.

So my other sister-in-law is frog/frog who denies (more or less) her wop heritage…she’s my wife’s second oldest sister, and is a civil servant in Paris.

She’s killed two husbands already…

Ok; my wife say’s its just bad luck. And she hasn’t killed them, just outlived them…

Ok, but she’s only 40 years old and outlived
Two husbands!

Anyway, she’s fixing to marry a guy from Normandy (first error), who’s half Dutch (second error) but was born in France. When he speaks Dutch, he has a French accent, that’s how Dutch he is…

Anyway, we’re having a get-together a few months back, in our place in the country.
Which is actually just out of Paris, but could be medieval France.

Now, I worked in West Berlin when it was West Berlin, and not just Berlin. So I’ve invited 3 friends from W. Berlin days, to come down as well.

So here we are, in our mini ranchette just east of Senlis…

B-B-Q is just waning to the perfect temperature, steaks have been marinading for three days in a mix I picked up in Silver City, NM. A few years ago (region 23,Initial attack and Rap crew for Geo Seis)

My wife comes over and say’s…”Gotta change the seating”…
What she actually said was “X… ne peut pas se reposer à côté de… Y

X being my sister-in-law, Y being my brother-in-law to be..

Why’ I ask?

She says…” Sister-in-law won’t sit next to the protestant…

Who’s the fu**ing protestant I ask…?

The Dutchy…

What Dutchy?

The Dutchy who’s going to marry my sister!

He was born in France for crying out loud; He’s as French as you are!

I’m not French! ………..

What do you mean you’re not French? We have two kids and they’re French….

No they’re not. They’re half French and half American but I’m Italian….

Whaddya mean you’re Italian…if you’re Italian and I’m American, how can we have two French kids???

Well here’s error number one for the day… I’m supposed to know that my French wife is now Italian, my sister-in-law won’t sit next to a protestant because they’re boring and cold, and no-one really wants to talk with my friends from Berlin because they have bad accents and they bombed Uncle Thierry’s place in Drancy in 1940

(Thierry’s place was a farm on the outskirts of Paris; it’d be worth nine gazillion bucks if he still had it today)

It turns out the protestants don’t know how to have fun, and if you get stuck next to one in a party, it’s all downhill from there!

The Dutch are more or less Germans who won’t fess up, and the guys we’ve hired in to do the catering are really not French but Swiss German with French names and therefore have no idea how to cook….Why?…..

Because they have German accents!

There should be a law against people pretending to be French…. Just because their family name sounds French…If we wanted watches or chocolate OK, But cooking?

This is the reason no sane person returns to Europe…

Because it doesn’t exist!!!!

All we have are a bunch of countries with disparate views on just about everything…. and some genius thought it would be a good idea to call it Europe! And while we’re at it! Let’s create a union among the various states and call it JAA.

The choices for driving forces within this new union should be some state or states, with nothing else going for them…Let’s pick the Netherlands and the UK…

No one speaks Dutch, which is the only thing you can say against the Dutch….

And no one cares about England, least of all the Brits!

Although, to be fair, most people like the Irish, Scots and Welsh.

It’s just the English no one really cares for….

As a breed, they’re convinced of moral, literal and practical superiority, and they play the game as no one else in Europe, they actually think UK aviation has an impact on the world aviation scene… And that somehow this tiny forgotten island, has a superior import than, shall we say Finland, which I would choose as a far superior aviation nation than poor old blighty…Having flown in both….

What you have in the UK, in basic form, is a bunch of people desperately trying to keep alive an untenable industry. It’s sad, and ‘in extremis’ but will survive because the stalwarts really believe, truly believe!, that their little world of private site to private site IS helicopter aviation.

The guys within the CAA have never seen helicopter aviation at it’s finest…These guys have never experienced the joys of working Rocket City, WY in the late seventies, 2D seismic…They wouldn’t let one eyed Phil fly here. Claiming having only one eye would be against the public interest…

Oh Yeah… Lets compare the CAA guys and their real worl knowledge to One eyed Phil, Danny B,. Jimmy C, Skip F, Mark F….

You deadbeats within the CAA haven’t lost the plot…you never saw the fu**ing plot. I don’t have the answers because I can’t isolate the problems within the CAA....

I’m too far away from the epicenter….

And I would be ashamed to get any closer….

I can’t and don’t want to imply that I speak for everyone, just for me. But I have to say for myself. That you’re the saddest bastards I’ve ever heard of!

SASless

27th Mar 2006, 22:50

Autosync,

Come on out into the middle of the street.....stand your ground...I am calling you out.

You don't get a JAR license by sending off a stamped addressed envelope like you can in other countries you have to work hard for it, its a professional qualification, and not something that you can "bang out" in a summer off (Now I know this is going to wind up pilots from other countries, but screw it, that’s the way it is, and that’s what keeps us in a job)

Name these countries where you can mail in a boxtop and get an ATPL....just one will do.

You might be able to get a PPL based upon the JAR license in the USA but it will still reference the JAA license and require the same limitations and privileges.

I listened to this crap when I worked in the UK.....and usually waited for some pompous ass to carry on long enough about the FAA system and the caliber of FAA pilots....before I informed him that I had both....and unless he had the same....he was talking out his ass.

Is that the case here?

Justifying the JAA licensing system by using it as one very large, complex, damned expensive hurdle that has to be gotten over in order to earn a living flying a helicopter is utter tripe in my book.

It is not the price of fuel that is killing aviation in the UK....it is user fees, license fees, exam fees, medical fees, landing fees, airways fees, fees fees, and more fees. It is the insurance regulations that killed the B-17 from flying and nothing else.

How many airfields are car factories, raceways, and vacant rotting expanses of concrete and macadam these days? How many closed last year? How many will close this year? How many operators are going out of business? How many folks are moving to foreign registrations to avoid the unnecessary expense of the UK/JAA system?

What keeps you in a job is the demand for aviation services....when you price/regulate yourself out of the market....you will no longer be in demand and thus might find yourself wondering what happened when the doors at your place slam shut and you find yourself on the dole.

autosync

28th Mar 2006, 00:01

Ok 170, you don’t like the English, or the Europeans thats your prerogative, nothing wrong with that, but the CAA is not the JAA.

If you feel inferior by their perceived superiority that’s just too bad.
My personal gripe is whinging Aussies, hopefully the chip will fall off both our shoulders some day!!

SASless...
As for you.... I would nearly have a bit of respect for your post if you deleted the cowboy routine..
Fighting on the internet is like winning a medal in the Special Olympics... you may feel like you won.......... But at the end of the day you are still handicapped!

But that aside, in answer to some of your questions,
Yes their are landing charges, airport fees, license fees, exam fees, medical fees expensive fuel and all sorts of other fees.
That’s one of the problems with living in countries small insize with small populations and economies, governments cannot afford to fund an industry in the same way that the FAA can subsidies the US industry, its a pleasure to fly in the US, but its not going to happen in Europe, because these economies just cannot afford to work that way, so its left to the user, which is unfortunate for the person paying the bill.
Land is also at a premium, and massive sums are being paid by developers to rezone the land, which is worth far more as a housing estate then as an airfield.

To convert a CPL/ATPL licence to FAA I would just have to sit down for a couple of days and study the small question bank and sit the written test at any time of my choosing then do a flight test for about an hour and a half.
Yes it is user friendly and painfree cheap and fast but there is a massive massive government funded support network that is not available in JAR land because as said before, the local governments just cannot afford that!
And thats the way it is, so if you want to fly in Europe, just jump through the hoops and stop crying. If your not willing to jump through the hoops, then stop crying!

Basically..... Shut the F*** up with all the whinging!

paco

28th Mar 2006, 00:18

Autosync - I think you need a little more research. I've not been through the FAA system, but I have been through the Canadian one, which is similar enough to enable me to say that the hour and a half flight test actually takes most of the day and you won't get airborne until you've sat with the examiner for a few hours going through the regs, etc - it is a lot more searching than answering exam questions. At least, that's what it should be - what individual examiners do may be different.

In principle, issuing the questions is just the same as issuing a syllabus - "these are the areas we want you to know about - now go study".

I heard all that stuff about how "superior" the European system is 40 years ago, but it sure ain't practical.

As one who is currently putting a JAA CPLH course through for approval, I can say that around 35% of the syllabus is completely irrelevant for modern-day flying however useful it might have been 100 years ago in the jungle where you maybe did have to repair your own radio (170' has it dead right). In fact, many of the questions are what you would find on an engineer's exam in any other country.

The answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Phil

papa68

28th Mar 2006, 01:04

Hi guys,

All I can say is this thread is priceless. The idea that somehow the Poms have a monopoly on world standards because their exams are less "accessible" for a variety of reasons, especially in terms of cost and time involved, is clearly ridiculous. But hey, whatever cranks your tractor...

Unfortunately, the British (or should that be the English) have an unfortunate reputation for being somewhat pompous and stuffy when it comes to things such as "standards". Whilst there may be an element of truth to this, I'm sure the majority of operators there are not actually like that. Auto appears to not to be one of them and so creates the illusion that all those working in the UK subscribe to his conservative viewpoints (to which he is entirely within his rights to air publicly).

I am in the interesting situation in that I work for a British organisation but live and work in Australia. As such, we are required to travel to the UK once every two years for recurrency training and all our AS332L command upgrades are done in the UK to their "exacting" standards. My take on the whole thing from my time in the UK with work is:

1. The standards there are very high but no higher than those in Australia or indeed the US (we send our S76 people to Florida for their respective ongoing training and upgrades).
2. The operators I have dealt with (face to face) all appeared to be reasonable people who didn't profess to have a monopoly on world standards.
3. Operators in the UK think the JAA system is unecessarily complex, expensive etc.
4. They all want to live and work in Australia but be on UK wages.

Ah, there's the rub. With all the costs of getting qualified in the UK, just about the only place you could repay all your loans would be as an offshore pilot on the North Sea. I would imagine this would be a big turn off for UK trained aircrew to work elsewhere. Are they pricing themselves out of other markets with the exorbitant costs of training in the UK?

Perhaps then, Auto has a point in that only so many people will go to the trouble and expense of jumping through all the hoops in order to work in the UK, in the hope that it will eventually pay off. For the rest of us, I'm not sure why we'd bother, much less be concerned about it. It's a big world out there and the UK is only a very small part of it.

P68:D (half Aussie/half Pom but no Wop, Seppo, Frog etc)

deeper

28th Mar 2006, 02:35

I don't have a problem with the JAA examination system, except for the fact that from what you read in some of the threads that it does little to nothing in educating pilots.

The lack of basic knowledge in aerodynamics and performance that is shown by european pilots, especially the English, after they have sat all of these examinations makes you wonder why they have them in the first place.

If the end result of this tiresome JAA system was a group of walking talking helicopter encyclopaedia pilots we could turn to for the good oil on helicopter operations we could all bow to the system but when you have the embarrassment of techincal questions posed on some threads by european (read English) instructors you can only cringe in disbelief and wonder how they ever achieved the qualification.

Autosync is obviously winding us up.:} :p

thecontroller

28th Mar 2006, 02:36

Mmm... this is interesting. Having worked in the heli industry in the UK and the USA I will offer my viewpoints.

The main reason people train abroad, and let's assume we're talking about mostly HAI J1 people, is COST. If it were the same price as the UK people would stay in the UK. Why spend 50 grand to be able to fly as a job, when you can spend 30 grand?

I think what happens is people go train/work abroad and they simply can't afford to spend a further 10 grand getting JAA qualified/taking 6 months off work, especially when the JAA exams seem so irrelevant. Or the UK weather puts them off.

And... I think the opportunities for heli flying are more abroad. All the UK really has is R22 instruction (people soon tire of doing that), a bit of charter work, and the north sea. Most of the police/HEMs jobs are taken by ex-military types. Abroad you have the GOM/powerline patrol/utility work/fire fighting/more EMS/ etc...

I personally am doing the J1 thing, but I am heading back to the UK because I want to live "at home" and work in the UK long-term. I dont want to spend a further 10 grand, that I dont have, but I knew what I was getting in for at the start of this.

Although the JAA exams are over-the-top, they are at least keeping out the hoards abroad who are waiting for the hoops to get easier, so they can return. ie more opportunities for people in the UK.

As far as FAA licences being "easy" that depends on the school. I expect high standards from my CPL students, just as I will under JAA. Although not all FAA schools do the same.

Flying in the UK is very much the preserve of the middle-classes/military (like messing around with boats and horses). In the USA it's more accessible and the "average joe" can do it, because the US government funds most of it.

It's no doubt easier to succeed as a pilot in the USA. Qualify at 200 hours, teach until 1000, then off to the GOM/Alaska/Grand Canyon, get turbine time, the move on from there. No such 'easy' route exists in the UK. I know very capable instructors in the UK who are still spending most of their time teaching on robbies after 1,500 hours.

ascj

28th Mar 2006, 02:39

Quote Autosync 'That’s one of the problems with living in countries small insize with small populations and economies, governments cannot afford to fund an industry in the same way that the FAA can subsidies the US industry, its a pleasure to fly in the US, but its not going to happen in Europe, because these economies just cannot afford to work that way, so its left to the user, which is unfortunate for the person paying the bill.'

Sombody quickly hide this thread before we end up with user pays in Aust & Kiwiland and we all go broke!:E

i4iq

28th Mar 2006, 06:21

theController

Why are you talking of spending another 10 grand and taking 6 months off work? Surely, you can do distance learning ATPL's, whilst instructing and then be ready to do the checkride etc when you get back to the UK...

thecontroller

28th Mar 2006, 09:19

nice idea. but instructing 12 hours a day doesnt leave much time/energy for studying.

Phone Wind

28th Mar 2006, 09:52

I held a UK ATPL and also have Canadian, JAA, and FAA ATPLs. Having qualified for all them I have to say that I found the UK/JAA exams the least relevant to any flying I have done. The JAA exams aren't any more difficult than any others; it's just that there are more of them. Thinking back to the old UK CAA exams, I've still to discover what use mid-zone weight fuel flow is to me when flying any of the helicopters I've operated :\ .
I used to fly in UK but wouldn't go back for many of the reasons already mentioned.
The weather's awful, housing is expensive, taxes are high, fuel is expensive, cars are expensive, the roads are crowded, the education and health systems are in decline. The money may be high for offshore pilots in places like Aberdeen, but the quality of life in many other countries is so much better.
I've operated in many countries on many continents and I can't say that I found the standards any better in UK. If you operate for a half-decent company, especially if you're a pilot on the oil patch then the standards to which you're required to operate are broadly similar almost anywhere in the world. Pilots are the same the world over - there are good, bad and ugly (OK even a lot of the good ones are ugly :E ). But, seriously, standards usually depend on whether the company you work for sets and demands good standards and on the personal professional standards of each individual. On any large operation look around the crewroom on a bad weather day and see how many of the pilots are brushing up on the flight manual, SOPs etc., and how many are surfing the web, writing to PPRuNe or reading the latest FHM ;)
I know many UK pilots working and living overseas who have no intention of ever returning to UK just because it's so expensive and the quality of life in so many other countries is much better these days. Despite my nationality, my UK and JAA licences I'd much rather work outside Europe and live in a country like France, Spain or Portugal, which have much kinder personal taxation laws than the UK and, especially in the case of France, a much better quality and standard of life. Just my view.

170'

28th Mar 2006, 11:17

Ok, the first post on this topic was influenced by a bottle of Bushmills and two ‘so called’ friends, who crashed at my place last night, en-route to a new fire season.

If we take vino veritas at face value, I’d be a hypocrite to delete it now

I edited a couple of names and initials, as it was over the top to put a real identity to the some of the weasels hanging out in Gatwick. (Plus a friendly lawyerly type said they might sue me)

But I want to continue my rant…

I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but it won’t make sense to start a new one.
(Sorry Ivor)

As Paco said! A lot of the JAA syllabus would be in an engineering exam in most other places. And he knows a lot about the subject of exams!

What I’d like to know, maybe you can help me out autosync?

Is how does this notionally superior education, fit into the life of a working Pilot?

I hate to burst anyone’s bubble, but flying helos is not difficult. my friends and I could be called intellectually challenged perhaps. But a lot of us have been doing this job all our lives successfully. With nowhere near the depth of knowledge required by the current JAA syllabus.

Anywhere you go today.And I mean anywhere on the planet. Your going to have more oversight from the client and operator than is imaginable. Pre-contract obligations to abide with, and safety guy's around every corner. The day's of cowboying a job are long since gone with most operators.. But a constant within these ops is the no-one has ever questioned me on any obscure theory and if there was any relevance in the JAA syllabus. The safety guys would be all over it! Trying to expand their kingdom yet further...Kind of like the CAA I guess...

Ok, we have guys like Nick Lappos around, but anyone who thinks Nick is a standard issue pilot needs their head read! I’m talking about a the plain jane, standard issue pilot…

Take Fire fighting or oil patch as an example.

All you need for this kind of operation is a seasoned, practical, workaday helo driver.
Such as my ‘mates’ or me. Who have done this! year in year out, since we were quite young…Yes, there’ve been accidents, plenty of them in the big picture! But knowing the name of a local wind that runs off the Tibetan Plateau is not going to stop them.

I worked in that general region years ago, and never knew any local wind existed. And if it had a name, I couldn’t give a sh*t at the time…. What I did know, is that when I left the filthy shack that served as crew quarters in the pre-dawn, was that it was raining sideways and blowing like a b*tch…Words fail to convey, the total lack of interest I had, in what was driving the wind. All I knew was it was another lousy day, living out of plastic bags, to stop the little buggy critters from infesting everything. Going to the cookhouse to find nothing that resembled wonder bread! And convince myself that Luke-warm white soup that tasted fishy was a nourishing breakfast…

I had a (the) gyro go tits up in the Lama on this gig. And the funny thing is, when the wrench RR’d the gyro, the words ‘earth tied or transport wander’ never fell from his lips…What fell from his lips was …I think it’s F**ked buddy. There’s another one in the flyaway box but it’s probably F**ked too! No tag on it…Do yah really need it?

He was the Engineer version of my pilot buddies and me. Living with the day to dynamics of the helo world… Are we Intellectually challenged? Yeah! I guess…but you don’t need to be Albert E to fly helos. What you need is good old common sense, and it don’t hurt having a good wrench in the next hooch.
Start on big jobs with lots of BS floating around the mess. Learn the business the tried and true way...Osmosis...

If you have the smarts to genuinely remember the entire JAA syllabus, you’re probably wasted as an operational pilot, and should be doing something ‘better’ with your life. Something that guys like me can’t get into because in plain words, we’re just not that smart. ….Imagine a helicopter world, manned (womaned?) by intellectually superior beings….Who’s gonna take out the trash?..

Autosync

Don’t know where you got the idea I don’t like Europeans and Brits (Ouch!)
Like many folks, I’m prone to making sweeping generalizations. And definitely need to control it better. So any English folks that are offended, I apologize and mean it!
It’s just the minority of pompous assh*les that stick in my craw. And the same guys stick in your craw just as much. The worst CAA/JAA bashing I’ve heard ,is from the home-grown, who are victims of these d*cks on a daily basis…

What do you mean, “The CAA are not the JAA”?

Do you have a local JAA office where you are?

The CAA are the effective body at operational level, and haven’t figured out yet that they (UK CAA) are the only oufit that’s taking the JAA deal 100% serious.

Regarding the Aussies and whining!
Afraid I gotta disagree on this point as well. If you ever find yourself on a lousy remote gig somewhere, with everything cratering. It’s great to have a bunch of Aussies or Kiwi’s around to brighten the day. When they’re not ‘Pommie bashing’
Which is only for chuckles anyway. They are (again a sweeping generalization) about the most ‘Stand-up’ guys you’re going to find anywhere.
A national trait of these guys is a can do attitude, anytime, anywhere…Maybe I only know the good ones?

Enough of this frivolity?

170...

Phone Wind…great name by the way! …A well thought out reasoned response!
(How’d you do that?;-))

France is a cool place to live, but I’d look further into the tax position. You need a good tax guy and even then, it’s gonna hurt!

Phone Wind

28th Mar 2006, 11:50

Hi 170'
Lived in France for many years and never had to pay a cent in income tax. If you're resident and touring, once you've established your residency and that you don't work in France I found it fairly straightforward (though a bit bureaucratic and time-consuming - which is why I paid some accountant some of the money I saved to make sure I got it right first time).
Living in USA or Canada is also awful from a tax point of view if you're touring and I think the Aussies don't get much in the way of breaks either. Better, if you can to reside in Africa or a country in Central or South America. Panama has great tax rules and Chile is a nice place to live, with sensible tax laws if you're touring. Many of my friends now reside in Thailand or the Philippines and say their quality of life is good (not sure how good hospitals are if you fall seriously ill in these places, however). There are still several African countries which have a reasonable quality of life and are fairly stable. Maybe someone needs to start a new thread on what's the best place to live if you're a touring pilot and willing to relocate :)

SASless

28th Mar 2006, 12:22

i4iq

28th Mar 2006, 12:29

Sounds like the amnesty thing all over again...

BigMike

28th Mar 2006, 12:45

Do you guys honestly think that by having these regulations you are going to stop overseas pilots working in the UK? I work with 16 pilots, all of which have plenty of ME time and only need to renew there IFR ratings, and they are busy learning English...
Sorry to burst your bubble on the salary issue too. I think if you look at the cost of living in other countries vs salary (Offshore flying) the North Sea dosn't look that good anymore.
I believe the Logging guys in Canada are probably earning the most per month anywhere.

The helicopter industry is a global one, and if you venture outside your comfort zone and head overseas, you will find this out.
My previous job off the coast of Africa involved working with South African, Swiss, Austrian, and US pilots, and 2 Czech Engineers! The licence they held didn't make any difference to they piloting skills, rather what experience they had.

170'

28th Mar 2006, 12:53

Phone wind

Sounds like a good idea for a thread !

PM on it's way

autosync

28th Mar 2006, 13:45

Ya see, the funny thing is... All of you guys who don't have JAA licenses have no problem constantly knocking the JAA system and take every opportunity you can to knock JAR pilots.
However when a JAA pilot points out a flaw in another system all the "Snobby Pomme... Superiority complex... pompous English... blah blah blah" crap starts to pour out from all quarters.
That says a lot in its self.

170' I agree wit you on one point, nearly every man and his dog can fly a helicopter, its not the most difficult thing in the world to manipulate a few levers and turn some dials, there is no great mystery in it, in the same way there is no great mystery in a Doctor writing prescriptions or a solicitor writing threatening letters.
But it doesn't stop them from having to go through years of college learning all aspects of their business no matter how irrelevant it is to the subject that they choose to specialise in and getting paid well to do it.
So if that’s the case, how can we justify getting a paycheck if every one on the street is able to do it?

And Gatwick is not the the Headquarters of the JAA and all countries that have signed up to JAR take it very seriously... And I seem to come across whinging Aussies all the time and its becoming painful to listen to....

SASless

28th Mar 2006, 13:51

[QUOYa see, the funny thing is... All of you guys who don't have JAA licenses have no problem constantly knocking the JAA system and take every opportunity you can to knock JAR pilots.TE][/QUOTE]

The system is being knocked...not the pilots. Well except maybe the mindset of those that for some completely illogical reason consider the JAA system the way to go. Especially in light of the change to EASA coming up. Now that does beg some explanation. What are you going to say when EASA bins the excesses of JAA and returns to a reasonable level of testing and such? You reckon the Crats will amend their testing and such, cut exam rates, fire some drones and Mandarins?

You plainly miss the point...why spend piles of money learning trivia that does not apply to the job at hand and charge through the ass for the exams to test your ability for Rote Memory (the lowest level of learning by the way).

autosync

28th Mar 2006, 14:22

Aren't the FAA tests just an A, B, C Question bank?
Learned by Rote
JAR is an A, B, C, D and there are a lot more of them, if you throw enough mud at the wall surely some will stick.
So that arguement doesn't really hold water.
But I am not here to knock the FAA system or even say that I am a better pilot, cause I probably amn't, and I have both FAA and JAA ATPLs

But you are missing my point, we all know that flying is not that difficult.
It sounds to me that some people here would be happy to see a test similar to getting a drivers licence. We don't have to know how the engine works to drive a car, we don't even have to know the breaking distance on a wet day at a given speed, so does that make it irrelevant?
Maybe it does, because it doesn't rain were I am and their is always a mechanic nearby so why should I have to worry about that?

How secure in your job would it make you feel, knowing that everybody can do and is doing what you are doing?
Would you still have the same passion for it?

BigMike

28th Mar 2006, 14:27

Is this an English thing? No ones knocking JAA pilots, I work with 16! Your system is strange, and it is not just the Aussies saying this.
Flaws in other systems? The Authorities in most countries have there moments, but they are all generally similar. I can work in the UK if I choose, but so far there has been more interesting work elsewhere.

autosync, you should head down to Oz and do a bit of flying. Better weather, great lifestyle, and a fair bit of work around if you have some experience. Medical, 1 Airlaw exam, and a flight test and you have a full CPL... you may not like the beer though

autosync

28th Mar 2006, 14:33

Thanks BigMike, but I am quite enjoying flying in Europe, its not so bad once you have jumped through the hoops.
36 degrees in melbourne the other day, thats not good weather to me, and I am no fan of the kangaroo piss you call beer either.

BigMike

28th Mar 2006, 14:43

I dont think that is what people are saying at all. Just that professional quailifications be recognised by both sides. Fine, if JAA were to insist on an exam on the differences between the JAA licence and others, I just cant see the point or sense in re-doing something that you have already sat and passed.

"How secure in your job would it make you feel, knowing that everybody can do and is doing what you are doing?
Would you still have the same passion for it?"

Plenty of helicopter pilots around. The jobs go to those who have the experience, and to those who have made the effort to further themselves.
I still have a passion for what I do, the number of other pilots flying has no bearing on that.

BigMike

28th Mar 2006, 14:47

Yep, Oz beer is pretty ordinary. Once you have had Czech beer everything else is a bit second best.
And BTW Im not an Aussie, but I did work there for quite a while.

check

28th Mar 2006, 16:34

Perhaps it's my age, but all this argy bargy about licencing is confusing me. Methinks it all comes down to cost, very few people wish to pay the European prices and I can understand that. However, standards have been set and no amount of whinging is going to change them. You want, or perhaps need the JAA licence then you have to buckle down like tens of thousands of other people and suffer the costs, but I'm afraid the theory will not go away.

If an easier and cheaper life is more appealing then go elsewhere.

I know as do many of you out there that the knowledge aquired by the JAA pilot is superior to many, but in 5 years, maybe less, this knowledge will be frittered away and only the "need to know" will be retained. On the other hand, the lesser pilot (licence that is) will over the same period aquire the same "need to know" and have less to forget, and both will be equal aviators.

I have found my UK ATPL/H and latterly JAA licences have been very useful, while friends with "lesser" licences have suffered. Every country I have worked in around the world has on receiving my UK licence issued me with a nice shiny full national licence, where as my friends had to do with short term validations. Once or twice I had to do the Air Law exam, and once in Europe an Instrument rating.

It all boils down to pain at the beginning and then the satisfaction of knowing your licence will be accepted almost everywhere. The unnecessary garbage in your brain does not do you any harm and it might come in useful if you decide to go fixed wing!

My own knowledge base from my early days is long gone only to be replaced by that which is useful today.

It's your choice, but make the right one as you'll have to live with it for the rest of your life, unless you win the lottery

mortennb

28th Mar 2006, 17:32

Good news for those heading to the USA to do their training....if the new immigration law passes....all you have to do is stay here and find a job. Prove you pay US taxes, learn to speak "English", and you too can become a US citizen after six years of being a formerly "illegal" immigrant.

Funny how one can go from being a "felon" to being a legal illegal overnight by a stroke of the pen.

Hi SASless. Can you tell me where/if I can find some more info about this?

And about the JAA and exams. I guess the people that haven't jumped through the hoops to get theyr licenses yet might seem a little whining.
But I wonder how many of the JAA pilots on this forum, has sat the 650 hours of ground, and taken 14 exams in 2 weeks.
Most JAA pilots today got theyr ICAO license converted when the countrie joined JAA.. Or am I mistaken here?

I whine about the conversion part, but not only because its alot of work. Mostly because I know I can't afford it.:(
I will have no flying in 6 months, depending if I take ATPL distance or in classroom. I will have no income, have to pay for living, the course, fees etc.
And finally , some say I need between 5-15 hours in the R-22 to get my JAA CPL-checkride. This is going to cost me around 13.000$ total.
And I will now have a JAA CPL, and what do most of the companies in Europe require? Yes, the IR rating.. But what the hell, after spending 13.000$, I might as well throw in only 23.000$ more since I already have the FAA IR. :suspect:

I think the whole conversion part is to expensive, and time demanding if you dont have a ICAO ATPL. I might be one of the whiners some of you are refering to, but I dont have endless pockest, and I am not best friend with the bank manager.
But what the h... I have reach my life dream witch was to fly helicopters, I just hope I can find a way to stay in the US. :ok:

SASless

28th Mar 2006, 19:02

Autosync,

Our friend and colleague Mortennb raises a very valid point. He is confronted with dire prospects of being able to self fund his flying training as a result of the length of time necessary to complete the ground school, the expense of the medical and exams, and the expense of adding an IR rating. I am sure he is one of the many highly motivated and dedicated young folks striving to become a professional helicopter pilot.

How do you respond to those that are not independently wealthy or who do not have rich uncles or in some cases Sugar Daddy's with the means and willingness to cough up the funds for their training?

How many young folks are prevented from seeking a career in civilain aviation due to the un-needed expense the JAR system requires? When will the system hit critical mass and the commerical aviation industry founder? why should commerical aviation be reserved for the wealthy and high born amongst us and not for every mother's son (or daughter)?

thecontroller

28th Mar 2006, 20:43

average salary in the USA is $37,000

average cost to train as a USA helicopter pilot/instructor (assume 200 hours total) = $50,000

average salary in the UK is £22,000

average cost to train as a UK helicopter pilot/instructor (assume 280 hours total) = £50,000

so... in the USA it costs 1.3 times the average salary, and in the UK it costs 2.2 times the average salary

(salary sources: http://ask.yahoo.com/20040518.html and http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,3604,1542254,00.html)

i4iq

28th Mar 2006, 21:17

Whilst I'd rather not jump through the JAA hoops, I know that I'll have to if I want to go to the UK to fly - but I know this before I start. Surely this has been the same for years?

Having said that, I hope EASA does scrap it all and make it easier to convert the FAA licenses but if they do, it's a bonus. Not that the UK would be my first choice...

mortennb

28th Mar 2006, 21:19

Having said that, I hope EASA does scrap it all and make it easier to convert the FAA licenses but if they do, it's a bonus. Not that the UK would be my first choice...

So true.. :ok:

Buitenzorg

28th Mar 2006, 22:43

Whoooheee!!!

Unbelievable! I just posted what I thought of the JAA and JARs and just look at this catfight! And I wasn't even trying to wind anyone up!

While working as an instructor I have flown with pilots trained under more than a dozen regulatory systems, including several JAA states. The British didn't stand out as either particularly bad or good; the only difference with the others seemed to be that at one point they had swotted up an enormous amount of trivia and retained it long enough to pass a slew of written exams - and paid through the nose for doing it. (In my limited experience the Austrians as a nationality were by far the best helicopter pilots). What did stand out about the British-trained pilots was their inflexibility: for instance they had only one way to fly an approach (60 kts to 40 feet, FLARE, PULL), regardless of wind, turbulence, obstacles, etc. When quizzed about this the answer was "the H-V diagram must be respected". It turned out that how this diagram was determined in flight testing (and thus, the limitations on its validity) were not part of their JAA-approved ground school and thus considered irrelevant.

About JAA's supposed "uniform" standards: two pilots holding JAA licenses from other JAA states - and recently gained too, not converted from earlier national ICAO licenses - displayed an alarming lack of knowledge on the aircraft in which they'd passed their flight test. After some gentle probing it transpired that they'd gained their license without ever having received any ground instruction!

autosync, from your posts I gather that your preference for the JAA system is that it keeps you in a job. Why do you need the JAA's help to hold down a job? Can't you do that by yourself? Now, that is a wind-up.

autosync

28th Mar 2006, 23:01

Thats it Sasless, go for the hole they are all useless rich kids who never worked a hard day in there lives, line while you are the downthrodden underdog and had to fight for every gad dang thing that you got, cause aint nobody never given you a cent!
Its a bit pathetic, but go with it, if it makes you feel better about yourself.
I'll pretend to give a **** and listen to you more carefully now!

Buitenzorg (Is that name German/ Swiss or Austrian perhaps?)
So you are saying that you can train someone from scratch without knowing the person, but you will be able to tell what country that person is from, based on their attitude?
Good for you, cause in that case you are a better man then me, and whatever system you train under is obviously supperior to everyone elses!
And in answer to your question, no I cannot compete with some ******** who is willing to "Fly for food" out of interest how much are you getting paid per hour as a flight instructor?

HillerBee

29th Mar 2006, 04:50

Buitenzorg seems like a dutch name. There are a lot of pilots out there and obviously you can't fly with them all. I personally think there are a lot of pilots who should never have become pilots in the first place.

However I do think that the main focus should be flying and not theoretical knowledge you don't need. Knowledge about the aircraft/aerodynamics/weather/ airspace regs. is essential of course.

I see a huge difference between military trained pilots and civilian trained pilots. In the end they're all flying with a JAA license. But is this discussion about good or bad pilots?? In that case this thread will go on forever.

Licensing should not be there to protect the jobmarket, but to make sure there are (high) standards. In this case JAA does that maybe, but I also do think we really don't need that many more pilots. There are plenty of JAA pilots around in the UK. And if they're good and willing to work they find a job. There are to many just thinking I've got a license and everybody is waiting for me. They send in a resume via email and that's it. I get them all the time, but if they can't even write a decent letter and make a phone call what do they expect? (low timers of course)

Coming back to the original question. It's just where you want to live. I lived in the US and several countries in Europe. Flying is flying.

Buitenzorg

29th Mar 2006, 21:38

HillerBee,
Correct in all, and I do mean all, aspects.:ok:

autosync,
as a flight instructor I was getting paid $hit. Just like all the other flight instructors who went thorugh this particular apprenticeship. It still was more than I would have been paid if I hadn't been instructing but learning how to navigate a Lockheed Constellation across the North Pole by astrolabe - a critical skill for today's helicopter pilot to be sure. These days I make a decent salary and only train other company pilots - and I still don't know how an astrolabe works. No doubt I will soon crash.

If the way you throw your toys out of the pram on this forum is any indication of how you behave at work, then yes, it's a good thing the JAA is keeping your job safe for you.

mrwellington

29th Mar 2006, 22:04

mortennb

29th Mar 2006, 22:28

Food for thought.....Offshore operators doesn't give a crap which system you come from ,as long as you have the certificates and pass their tests. Actually any operator doesn't care which system you've trained under, as long as you have the proper certificates (if that's not the case...your probably better off not working for them).
And for those whinning about the price of an IR ticket......shouldn't that have been a consideration prior to embarking on training...? Proper research prevents p*ss poor economical whinning. (And no, a r22/H300 is not an IFR machine..not even in the US)

IMHO

Well, I can tell you that I did a research for about 6 months before I decided to go abroad.
But due to money, I had to choose between getting my pilot education (USA), or continiue what I was doing the rest of my life. (European education)

The funny part is that the guy that took the place in my old job, was a JAA educated CPL-H pilot. With 150 hours, he tryed hard for 6 months to get a job, without luck. This is 1 year ago, and I beleive he's still is paying for he's huge bank loan and will never fly again. I know he wants to go to the US though. But thats not easy either.

Good luck Europe.

autosync

29th Mar 2006, 22:37

Some flight instructors in the UK get paid 70 pounds STG per hour and are able to sustain a living and are treated with a bit of respect, and not just some Donkey doing an "Apprenticeship" until something better comes along.

What’s the going rate in the US for a CFI $20?
So after your training you will have to factor that into the cost of living and that’s were the fun begins, You will have to come up with new and innovative ways to waste your students time on days when there is no flying so that you can put food on your table.
Now who are the real leeches?

And Buitenzorg, I don't know were you are coming up with your
"How to navigate a Lockheed Constellation across the North Pole by astrolabe"
Sounds like a typical campfire scare story of the big bad JAA bogeyman!

But feel free to throw stones; I have no problem firing them back!

mortennb

29th Mar 2006, 23:05

autosync

29th Mar 2006, 23:35

Apologies MortenB, I was originally referring to Buitzenorg, I can see were the confusion arose :confused:

Typical Lazy FAA whinger, wants to get everything handed to them on a plate, whithout lifting a finger...!!
However.. To do the distance learning course, its around £2000 when bought as a package + £480 in exam fees.
To get an FI add on to an exsisting ICAO Flight instructor rating will cost aprroximately £4500.
And obviously there wont be as many jobs in the UK as ther is in the U.S...
Now if you want I can also sit the exams for you

Darren999

30th Mar 2006, 01:39

Controller- I have gone the way of your last paragraph, GOM, Alaska etc.
I would like to return home to the UK and fly, but to be honest I don't want to undertake the JAA exams,getting to old for all that studying now, I hold an FAA ATP. I will admit I am one of the guys waiting for rule changes and are trying to avoid the hoop jumping. Until then I will stay in the US, somehow I can never see the rules changing, but I still enjoy working here.
Great thread....:ok:

Heliport

30th Mar 2006, 06:07

For information:
The extensive (and expensive) process pilots who are already CPLs are required to go through if they wish to obtain a JAA CPL are set out here: Converting to JAA (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=216744).

autosync
It would help the discussion if you could express your opinions without being so offensive to other contributors, and about those who don't hold JAA qualifications which for some reason you rate so highly. (ie The overwhelming majority of the world's professional pilots.)

Heliport

autosync

30th Mar 2006, 15:08

autosync
It would help the discussion if you could express your opinions without being so offensive to other contributors, and about those who don't hold JAA qualifications which for some reason you rate so highly. (ie The overwhelming majority of the world's professional pilots.)
Heliport

Heliport that is Piss Poor Moderating....
I was clearly being patronised..
And you seem to be implying that I have a problem with pilots trained under different authorities, I'll tell you right now, I don't.
If i was to fly in their country I would fly under their rules and not go crying because there styles and rules are different to mine!
However Clearly the pilots involved in this discussion have a chip on their shoulder about pilots flying under the JAA system.

If the arguement is upsetting you, you may aswell close the thread and we can start a new one and only talk about all of the cons in the JAR system.

HillerBee

30th Mar 2006, 15:20

So it seems this thread comes to an end.

The conclusion seems to be: because of the need to get a JAA license, Brits fly in other countries outside Europe (JAA).

So if JAA would accept FAA, the Brits come home. I don't think there would be a problem with Americans coming to the UK.

SASless

30th Mar 2006, 15:27

UH OH!

Forget the middle of the street at Noon....this is an invite to the Heliport Woodshed me thinks.:uhoh:

Hiller,

Unless the law has changed dramatically....Americans still have to get a work permit along with the licensing hoop jumping. Seems some want double indemnity protection.

170'

30th Mar 2006, 15:54

Maybe we can continue this just a little longer? and segue to a list of the Pro's about the JAA system....

Anyone want to intelligently defend it?

A kind of A to Z of What's right with the system!

Just a thought!

HillerBee

30th Mar 2006, 15:56

Yes, that's what I mean, there is no threat at all. By the way I don't see it as a threat anyway.

I think there should be no boundaries either way to be honest. Using licensing to protect it is not the way to go, but that's my opinion. I think the way it's run now really limits the growth of the helicopter industry in Europe. So that means in the long run there will be less jobs.

Buitenzorg

30th Mar 2006, 16:04

autosync,
SOME intrsutors in the US are paid in excess of $100 per hour; just not the majority however. SOME instructors are instructing as a career and doing very well at it, thank you. And no, their students don't feel they are being gouged, they feel they are paying for quality.

Navigating a Constellation (well, a generic airplane to be exact) by celestial navigation along the old North Pole route was one of the exercises assigned to a colleague of mine who elected to continue his career in the UK. During the year he was studying for the JAA ATPL he had no income and did not fly, while I made a good salary, was qualified in two turbine aircraft and sling work, and flew around 600 hours. He and I started our training at about the same time.

However, as the more level-headed HillerBee pointed out, if one wants to live and ply one's trade as a helicopter pilot in the UK (or elsewhere in the JAA states) one has no choice but to jump through these hoops. I, like many others, don't want to, while others consider the aggravation excessive.

mongoose237

30th Mar 2006, 17:26

I've refrained from entering the debate so far because it is futile. JAA is a regular punchbag, but almost exclusively by those frustrated that it is preventing them from getting their JAA licences for half the cost. But what would you all do when you get back to Europe with your fresh shiny JAA CPLs? There certainly wouldn't be any work as an instructor, your own defection abroad for training will have made sure of that... So who is going to let you loose on a twin for charter work?

There are two problems with the JAA system, theory and price. The flying aspect is pretty much the same the world over. Price is largely dictated by economies of scale and fuel (which would get worse if you snatched away the training market), and the CAA. The theory is a pain, but it is preferable to not being thorough enough. When did you last have to recall who won the Battle of Agincourt? Or explain what is meant by atomic mass? Or describe the Holy Trinity? So I take it the current schooling curiculum for our children is ridiculous? Or maybe, just maybe, it makes a more rounded adult... I know that is not quite the same, but listen to yourselves - "Noooo! You're training us too thoroughly! I want minimum effort and only things that I think will be relevant!".

Now I have heard that the Japanese licencing authorities require applicants to hover incredibly accurately for a prolonged period of time. A useful way to spend your training time? When was the last time you heard criticism of this system? Reason: there is not a large number of pilots wanting to get into the Japanese market.

I think it is fair to say that the two most regular critics of the JAA system are those trained by CASA and the FAA.
Lets look at the two systems who have a mutual dislike of JAA - under one of the systems you can become an instructor almost straight after CPL. The other you must have (IIRC) 360 hours total time, and then a 40 hour course. So, are all you Australian Instructors superior to the FAA instructors, and therefore producing a better pilot? If yes, I would be interested to hear your justifications. If no, so how do you justify 400 hours for an new instructor? Should a guy with literally half the training that CASA requires be entitled to come to Australia and be granted an instructors ticket? Yes/No?

The market is very healthy in the UK at moment. Qualified instructors are in demand, with a minimum of £40/hour for a fresh, restricted instructor. Charter pilots with experience are needed. And the North Sea Operators are hiring.

I don't think the JAA system is perfect, far from it. But
1. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and
2. I think people should actually have experienced the various systems before passing comment ... rather than using the term JAA as synonimous with British so as to perpetuate their own xenophobic beliefs that the UK is a nation of handlebar-moustached wing commanders and Basil Fawlty's who haven't quite come to terms with the decline of their Empire.

This topic is never discussed objectively, it is too emotive.

Flying Lawyer

30th Mar 2006, 18:28

mongoose237
Your concession that your school analogy is "not quite the same" is a spectacular under-statement. It's entirely different.

using the term JAA as synonimous with British so as to perpetuate their own xenophobic beliefs that the UK is a nation of handlebar-moustached wing commanders and Basil Fawlty's who haven't quite come to terms with the decline of their Empire. It's such a shame some British contributors seem to confirm that image.
Xenophobic?
Most of the criticisms I've read in various threads have been by Brits - many of whom find it difficult or impossible to achieve their ambition in their own country because of the requirements imposed upon them. Given that this is an English language forum, we can't know with certainty what the majority of other Europeans think, but those who speak English and post on Pprune seem to make the same criticisms.

The image you describe is by no means entirely inaccurate. I don't think we have come to terms with the decline of the British Empire. I believe it's the root of the deeply embedded, but embarrassingly quaint and absurd, notion that we're the best in the world at everything, not just aviation - and have nothing to learn from these upstart countries. (My profession is no better.)
Speak to some senior CAA personnel about the FAA and one could easily get the impression that America is some third world country which has just discovered aviation. Speak to them about FAA licence requirements and one gets the impression that it's only by luck that FAA qualified pilots find their way across the Atlantic and little short of a miracle that they don't crash on the way or fall on London in their attempts to land at Heathrow.

Interesting that you should mention the FAA and CASA. My impression from reading the forum over the years is that their helicopter pilots (together with Canada) do some of the most challenging flying in the world.

Is there any justification for the so-called 'safety' argument in support of the JAA's training and licensing requirements?
Is there evidence that (for example) FAA and CASA pilots are less safe than JAA pilots?

This topic is never discussed objectively, it is too emotive. People have tried very hard to do so in this thread. If you read from the beginning it's quite obvious where the problem lies.

_

bluestack

30th Mar 2006, 20:07

...well, from the bottom rung of the ladder...

It appears the only people argueing the relative merits of either system and getting emotive about it are those that don't have to make the decision anymore.

From us starting out it's a very clear and logical choice..

Can you afford to learn under JAA, YES/NO ?

I'm from the UK, would like to learn and fly in the UK, but simply can't afford it.
The only affordable route open to me is the FAA one (which I don't consider to be second best, given the experience to be gained from a new location).

What I find surprising is how well the yanks take us going over there, and taking FI jobs.

It's little surprise they feel a little agrieved it's not reciprocated and I'm inclined to agree with them.

If it wasn't for the FAA I wouldn't have the chance to do this..and I'm willing as I'm sure all the other FAA/CASA trainees are, to take our chances round the globe finding work until we can come back, if we want to..

I've made my choices and will take my chances, same as anyone under any system - all it takes is a little thinking outside the box to find a way round it - skills that would be well learnt under any system

y'all have a nice day now :ok:

mongoose237

30th Mar 2006, 21:01

Flying Lawyer
I'm afraid I disagree with you on a number of grounds, and I have been through several professional pilot licencing systems - before going through the JAA system - so I feel I do have a benchmark above and beyond what I read. However, remaining on track:

The cost per flying hour will not significantly reduce, irrespective of training requirements, and I feel the major motivating factor in criticism of JAA is the cost of getting a licence, not the requirements. In fact the expensive bit - the flying - is very rarely criticised at PPL or CPL level (my own being the 5 hours of instruments at PPL level but thankfully a u-turn is being considered). Yes, the theory is onerous, but the theory cost equates to about 5% of the total training cost which is largely fixed by factors beyond those generated by JAA requirements, and personally I don't think 6 months of theory is out the question to train someone who knows nothing about aviation, flying or helicopters up to the standard of a professional pilot. The CAA fees are ridiculous, but again a small percentage of the total training cost.

I have read it from the beginning and the topic has largely taken the same line it always does whenever it is debated, ad nauseum. And I suspect we have differing opinions too on what "obvious" conclusions we deduce from these sorts of threads.

But the world would be a boring place if we didn't all have our own opinion.

BlueStack
Good luck, we don't all have apathy towards the new pilots. I suggest reading threads by Jemax who gave a very good indication of how you can do things cost effectively and extremely expeditiously in the UK, and I also suggest reading my thread about what is involved in converting your future FAA licence back to JAA.

Remember it is highly likely that you will be unable to remain in America after the expiry of your J1 so a conversion may well have to be budgeted for. Even with a 1000 hours under your belt from the States - which is slightly more than most would appear to return with - if you intend to make a living of flying onshore in the UK it will be as an FI, not a charter pilot. Therefore once you have paid for:
1. Training in America
2. Conversion to JAA CPL
3. Adding various type ratings to your licence to make you employable
4. JAA Flight Instructor
and during your time instructing in the US only having earnt back a fraction of what you would have earnt during that year in the UK as an FI (between £18000 - £24000) the long term savings may not be as great as would appear. Particularly if you hour build abroad but do your training in the UK ... and no, I don't have a vested interest, I only instruct very infrequently ;)

mortennb

30th Mar 2006, 21:32

Lets look at the two systems who have a mutual dislike of JAA - under one of the systems you can become an instructor almost straight after CPL. The other you must have (IIRC) 360 hours total time, and then a 40 hour course. So, are all you Australian Instructors superior to the FAA instructors, and therefore producing a better pilot? If yes, I would be interested to hear your justifications. If no, so how do you justify 400 hours for an new instructor?

I assume your refering to FAA.
Well, everybody has to start somewhere. I am not sure what your opinion on the 200 hour FI in the US is, but anyway...
The 200 hour FI is going to train the "new student" including gaining more understanding and experience himself. Is a pilot with 15.000 hours working commecial gonna train a new student any better than the guy with 200 hours? The differences I see is that the 15.000 hour pilot has more experience flying, and probably have forgotten some of the ground he learned in the beginning. Ofcourse it would be different if you have a FI with experience in instructing. But not many want to do that, do they...?
Can a new student gain on the 15.000 hour pilot's experiences in a R-22?
Maybe, but probably not. He doesnt even know how to hover.
I am from Europe, and I think the US system regaring FI is very good. They have found a way to get their pilots the first experience within Aviation.

And yes, the JAA might be good in some ways. I just wanted to know how it realy is. Just talked to a guy coming from Europe today. He has been in the UK almost 1 year converting now, hasnt flown for this time and are now done with he's ATP ground.
He's answer to how the ground was: "The JAA ground sucks" and even the teachers at the school he attended told the students that they would probably forget about 80% of what they have to learn. But its a JAA requierment.

HillerBee

30th Mar 2006, 22:20

One advantage for the new instructor (FAA CFI) is that all the information is still fresh and he keeps repeating it for a 1000 hours and that might be an advantage.

Flying wise I think having a more experienced instructor is just better, there are a lot with 200 hours or less, who can't really fly. The perfect mix is instructors with commercial 'real life' experience. But again this is my opinion.

Are there that many accidents with low-time instructors? Answer yes, read the NTSB reports.

As you already know I'm not in favour in this discussion of JAA or FAA.

IntheTin

30th Mar 2006, 22:23

Nicely put 'Bluestack'
Money was certainly an issue for me with regards to gaining my FI.
Hopefully I will be able to gain a load more experience as an instructor, then move on somewhere else in the world.
I love the UK but its not the only place to fly. :ok:

bluestack

31st Mar 2006, 01:04

Thanks for that Mongoose, I have read your thread appreciatively and have also pointed others towards Jemax's post regarding what's involved..

I have no intention of remaining in the US after my J1 runs out (although would be good if it happened - not planning on it).

I have budgeted for my conversion on return (whenever that happens).

Without going into my specifics, Jemax had quit his job for a year - so will be liable to the same loss of earnings as myself.

I don't see the licence issue charges or exam fees levied by the CAA as a show-stopper given the costs the newbies are enduring already, I understand the need to get the legal and procedure right - it's just the per hour flying costs.

Even doing some hour building abroad, I can't see how it's as cheap here once you factor in loss of earnings and running expenses in UK. One months UK mortage gets me 4 months accomodation in Florida. (my mortgage incidentally is being paid by rental while I'm way).

I agree with your 4 points, and the respective costs, even though I still think it's cheaper overall, but probably not by much - but that's missing the point.

Myself like so many others starting out aren't planning on avoiding coming back - we're just not staying in the first place

mongoose237

31st Mar 2006, 06:39

Mortennb
I have voiced my views on new instructors elsewhere on this forum. I don't enter the "safety" debate, nor the better-pilot-by-passport argument because it is preposterous.

Bluestack
I wasn't trying to convince you one way or another, merely help with a broader picture before making such a huge commitment. Different routes suit different people but I find it so sad when peoples careers get cut down before they really started because they didn't know the whole story and ran out of steam (read: money) at the final hurdle.

I am guessing that the ratio of J1 visa holders to CFI openings isn't that great, which would tally up with the hours I saw on such peoples CVs. I also hear that some schools are struggling to keep to time estimates on training. So maximise the time wherever you can. Perhaps get a PPL on an M1 visa (or in another country) and do the CPL study then get your J1 visa provided you don't have too many hours. Do your FAA licences and get a job. Whilst working as a CFI, sign on with a distance learning JAA theory provider. At the end of the 2 years, back to the UK for a few months for medical and exams, then an M1 visa back to HAI for CPL and FI conversion courses. Thats merely a suggestion rather than a recommendation; one of the multitude of ways to skin the proverbial cat

Knowing the systems will save a lot of heartache and expense.

Anyway, this is hijacking the thread and as I don't have anything I would like to add to the original debate I will wish you all good luck! :ok:

bluestack

31st Mar 2006, 19:16

nope - wasn't thinking you were trying to convince me mongoose - and do appreciate the broader view you're offering.

research, research , research...is the only way to make it work.

This is what I was alluding to when I mentioned thinking outside the box, and it's worth taking the time to get it right - there's a few tricks I'd have missed had I just gone in cheque book blazing.

Like you - I'm not going to hijack this any more either.

Appreciate the advice.

Bluestack :ok:

Oogle

1st Apr 2006, 23:05

Autosync,

Not having a go at non-JAA rated pilots??? I seem to recall someone being called an "FAA whinger wanted everything handed to him on a plate".

Get it through your head - the JAA system is antiquated and out of touch with the rest of the ICAO world and that is the answer to the question originally posted.

I have not had the UK CAA frontal lobotomy but if I had to, I would.

Get real here. "Your" system needs a 100 hourly. :hmm:

Cyclic Hotline

2nd Apr 2006, 03:51

I have never found that nationality, country (or source) of training, or the system that you are certified under has the slightest difference on your ability to perform any function in aviation.

I have found that attitude, capability, commitment, basic intelligence, diplomacy and the ability to interact with all kinds of human beings has everything to do with success.

I have met as many highly trained, and qualified, assholes; as I have poorly trained or qualiifed assholes. I have met assholes of every nationality. I have military trained assholes and civilian trained assholes. I have met foreign assholes and domestic assholes (and I've been around)! ;)

But you know what I met the most off?

Real life helicopter people that are committed to their jobs and responsibilities. People that commit their lives and careers to the helicopter business. They deserve fair pay and conditions. They deserve respect and recognition for what they do. They don't believe they are superior to anyone else, or peculiarly talented. They are the real, everyday, people in our business.

Go to the HAI or Helitech. There are hundreds (thousands!) of us there. We quietly get on. Interrogate each other for vital intelligence, just like her on PPRuNe, have a few beers, reconnect on lost friends, catch up on recent developments and look toward the future.

The helicopter business is not about the regulatory authority, it is about the Operators and the business environment. This is a fabulous time to take advantage of it. :)