Cheap Flights & pilot shortage, Dail Telegraph 27 March

[wiggy]

Is the shortage finally hurting the operators? clink on this link, from Todays Daily Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/03/27/cnair27.xml

[ETOPS]

Wonder where they got their figures from? 2400 "registered pilots" in 2004/5 looks to be about 10,000 too few............

[Robssupra]

Don't believe what you read in newspapers mate.

Have you been to the unemployment office lately? I bet you 20% of the people you see in your unemployment offices, this days, are pilots.
The market is flooded with pilots, although it seams to be slowing down on these 200 hour pilots prepared to invest in their future by coughing up another &20,000 on top of their previous loan to purchasing that right seat, the airlines seam to be trying to fill.
Airlines are cutting cost any way they can and if the pilots are the way to do so, than that is exactly what they will continue doing. Management are there for one thing and one thing only, to look after themselves and surely not you and me.
So again don't believe what the media decides to stick in their newspaper.

Safe skies.

[Piltdown Man]

Robssupra - I think your persective is one from the other end of the planet. There are certainly people waiting for jobs in the UK but nowhere near the plague proportions of downunder. If you don't have a job it always seems like nothing is happening and never will. I know, I've been there. But the majority of wannabees will get a job, eventually. Fortunately, the airline marketing people are doing us a favour by selling seats on flights which are un-crewed. They have to! To add to the problem, the likes of FR and EZ have ordered/optioned loads planes which they have to operate - with crews who haven't been employed yet! Just as soon as the ops and crew planning people twig this, the fun will start. And when it does, I give it two years before it all falls over again (like in 1989).

[Human Factor]

Hmmm. Supply and demand. Shortage of supply usually makes the price go up.

Now, why do BA want to reduce their pilot's terms and conditions? :confused:

[Brae_Cwynd]

Double hmmmm,

Where do the newspapers get their facts? BALPA has approximately 8500 members most of whom are professional pilots in employment. British Airways has in the order of 3,000 alone.

BC

[BusyB]

Storm Aviation seems to have an "In" with the press. I've just listened to a Capt KL from Storm supposedly speaking of no shortage on R5live. All stories seem to ignore the worldwide shortage of experienced pilots and the lack of encouragement, by pay and conditions, for them to stay on. No wonder they are getting short and expat packages are starting to improve.

[RVR800]

Yes its not a shortage of pilots its a realisation that type rated pilots dont grow on trees and that the "cash strapped" airlines they may have to SPEND SOME OF THEIR OWN MONEY!!

On type ratings etc...

Any pilot shortage is likely to most affect airlines with more pilot departures than arrivals who are regarded by the pilot comminity as a tad greedy, those that are not cash rich may suffer the consequences...

[EGBKFLYER]

See also the discussion in the Jobs etc Forum.

Always makes me deeply suspicious when the article quotes someone connected with an SSTR establishment hollering about the lack of pilots:mad:

If there's such a shortage, why aren't people getting my CV beating a path to my door? Exactly.

[RVR800]

The storm website says

"Under the leadership of Captain Keith Longden and through strong emphasis on quality Storm Aviation has quickly established itself as a leading Airbus TRTO"

.. good marketing and use of the media to ramp up the business in a strong market for trained pilots

[Riverboat]

This story is a Storm in a teacup.

[BOAC]

Well informed sources tell me that just 3 UK airlines, EJ, Virgin and BA are looking for 800 between them at the moment.

[Curious Pax]

Presumably Ryanair can be added to that list (if you term it "airlines with their main place of operations in the UK"). The last 2 737-800s they had delivered are reported as parked up at Prestwick at present (one for around a fortnight), and another 2 are en route from Boeing as I type. Presumably they will all need crew - and not forgetting the other 100 or so due over the next few years.

[sky9]

It will be interesting to see what happens on April 1st when the Ryanair pilots hours are zeroed for another year. How many subcharters will there be and how many aircraft will sit unused do to lack of pilots?

[smith]

Anyone got a feeling that the current increase in air travel will become a victim of its own success and the whole system will implode on itsself? The Eirjet plane only had 40ish pax, bmi figures down, flybe regularly cancelling flights etc etc etc.

Is the market sustainable as it is, or even growing as predicted. I can see a boom and bust situation developing.

[Dream Buster]

Smithy,

Well said!

When a Lo Co finally goes bust, as in fatally busting some passengers lives, can we expect the CEO's to be put in gaol for a few years?

Seriously, this is the bottom line. There is plenty of evidence stacking up.


:ouch:

[Turn and Burn]

Sorry to spoil your dream, but the evidence from the US, as published recently in Flight, indicates that the LoCos are safer than the 'Majors'. Maybe it is because they are more profitable and have money to spare for those little extras.

[Hand Solo]

Is that why Southwest keep going off the runway?

[Pontious]

I just hope the UK and EU's airlines DON'T get so desperate that they have to resort to employing vast swarms of whinging Aussies, when they are all so welcoming(NOT!) to non-Aussie nationals applying for flying jobs on their turf!!
:ok:

[fortuna76]

According to the article BA, EJ and FR are desperately looking for pilots.....

BA is not hiring at the moment (called them today) :confused:

Ryanair is still asking 50 GBP to register on their website :confused:

Easyjet is still only doing the TRSS :confused:

Doesn´t sound that desperate to me I have to say.
This article is fiction! (or maybe a wannabee pilot´s dream).

[fmgc]

BA advertised in thelast edition of flight international. They are most definitely recruiting.

[fortuna76]

I must be in the black book then.....darn :{

[egsshell]

Ryanair is still asking 50 GBP to register on their website :confused:


Sorry Fortuna but it didn't cost me anything to register or to do the sim ride and they have offered me a job with no up front training costs, just a standard 5 year reducing bond.

[fortuna76]

Egshell,

Was that a direct application with Ryanair or some sub training organisation. I get so confused these days about where you go for what. Fact is that if I go to the Ryanair page and click apply, they tell me it will cost me 50 gbp. Offcourse I have no 1000 hours in the jet so that might be the catch (got 3000 shiny turboprop though, most PIC :yuk: )

Anyway many congrats on the job, hope you find good times there! They sure as heck need you. :E

[jondc9]

someone mentioned that low cost carriers were SAFER than (I presume) legacy carriers.

legacy carriers have been around so long that low cost carriers have benefited from safety experience of others while not having to "pay their dues" in learning the hard way.

of course all we have to throw in the mix is HELIOS AIR

regards

jon

[corsair]

I don't know what the situation with egshell is but I heard from senior Ryanair training Captain that the upfront money requirement was on the way out as early as last year. That doesn't mean they won't take their fifty quid for applying! Time will tell anyway.

As for the pilot shortage. There is always a shortage of experienced type rated pilots. Unfortunately it always seems that they need Airbus pilots when you have a 737 rating and vice versa. That's nothing new.

But I think the real shortage will be in the flow of wannabees from the flight schools. Let's assume you are a young person in college or just leaving school. You have a vague idea you would like to be an airline pilot. You do some research. None of the big names sponsor pilots anymore so that's out. That will put off many straight away. Next there is the flight school option. When they recover from the dead faint at seeing the fees that will eliminate a lot more. Then they research the job prospects. They might look here at PPruNe and see the reality. No guarantee of a job, years waiting for the job to come up, more money laid out to get a type rating, long hours and bad rosters.

After all that all you have left are the sad characters like me and you who want to fly at all costs and will let nothing stop us not even the loss of our dignity and personal life. The trouble is that there isn't enough of us. In the past not all pilots were starry eyed kids building model gliders, gazing at the clouds in the ethereal blue sky and wishing they could fly right now. I visited a friend at one well know flight school a while ago. Most students were self sponsored and at least in the late twenties early thirties with mostly established careers who decided to throw it in for the dream. If that is the main source of pilots into the future there has to be a shortage.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

corsair,

I think when you say:

"But I think the real shortage will be in the flow of wannabees from the flight schools"

you could well be right. Unless there is an incentive for people in their early 20's to go into the industry, you could be left with only the out and out diehards. Those who will sacrifice absolutely everything to see their dream through are however not the majority. Many (and as it turned out me included) have their limits beyond which they simply will not go. So who knows, large scale old style sponsorship may return for the Nigels and Nigelas.

However, as all the old wise pundits correctly pointed out back in 2001 when the industry pretty much went into a short period of free fall, the aviation industry is cyclical. It has been boom and bust for as long as I can remember.

Even now without any sign of an obvious bust on the horizon - just consider one big European operator with say 400 or 500 pilots going to the wall. Result: all demand from Ryanair and Easyjet soaked up for at least a year. Consider a bunch of operators scaling back to survive onslaught of loco's and it might add up to the same thing.

[touchingthevoid]

Interesting comments Corsair.

I am one of the early thirties self sponsored Fatpl types. Its a long wait job hunting, but on the positive side a lot of my pals hve recently landed jobs all be it they have had to pay another 20-25K for a type rating and accept rubbish terms. In a few years they will be able to get a decent salary and some respect back. I will do it the long and hard way and do some instructing to get my hours up and see where that takes me.

It would be nice to think at some time in the future there will be a pilot shortage, maybe we will get a bit more respect from airline managers then.. economics...works both ways.

[ShortfinalFred]

I think that you can safely assume that any "respect" culture is dead in the airline business. Shortage or not, 99.9% of airline management hold flightcrew in UTTER contempt. It's no longer a rational career option and, on present conditions, it is now only the preserve of those who are irrationally committed to the idea of flying for a living.

The mismatch between the position of trust held by flightcrew and the efforts required to get it, and the treatement meeted-out to the holders of positions of that trust, has never been so severe. I expect no improvement whatsoever, indeed I think it can only get worse. Relations at our employer are now beyond disbelief, but we still have a way to go to catch up with "the market leader" Ry@nair. Our new CEO is set fair upon the path to catching-up, however, and as a fellow citizen of the Emerald Isle, he has studied their methods closely. I fully expect relations at our company to collapse in a heap of mutual loathing anytime soon.

And this is called a "career" - what a sad joke that phrase has become! My colleagues from University days have "careers", and very lucrative ones now too. They enjoy them and are treated with considerable respect. Here in aviation on the other hand...............and I can no longer say I enjoy it as each year brings more cuts and "givebacks" in terms and conditions accompanied by treatment that would not be out of place in a third-rate borstal, a fine mix of bullying and condesencion. Good luck to all.

My guess for the future is that airlines will be "offshoring" flightcrew jobs anytime soon and using the leverage gained thereby to hammer down remuneration packages through the floor. Anyone "investing" good money in joining todays industry is in for a series of ever-more corrosive disappointments. Just read the Ryan@air threads to see where we are all going to HAVE to go just to "compete" with these charlatans who hold ALL their employees in contempt, let alone their customers (£15 quid for a wheelchair, was it?). Yeah, the wheelchair episode just about sums up where this ugly business is going, and nothing will stop it.

[Da Dog]

I could not agree more with you SFF. Very well put.

[Scottie]

I prefer to see my cup as half full rather than half empty.

I think what you're describing SFF is Capitalism in it's worst form and this isn't restricted to aviation. All over industry companies are demanding more and more from their employees/professionals. It's capitalisms pursuit of greater effiencies.

I assume you're in BA and if I'm not wrong the top scale that can be achieved is £127,000ish plus allowances for a longhaul skipper? For that kind of money in any other industry/profession you'll work your preverbials off.

The wife is a chartered surveyor working in property taxation for a top UK company and she does very well out of it but she also works a lot harder than me and I do at least 800 hours a year. As I write she's sitting on the couch in the living room working through a job file of which their are six to be completed by Monday and that's a typical weekend. On top of that she has a course of study to complete.

A captain in easyJet earns the same as an NHS consultant, an SFO about £15k more than a hospital doctor (registrar?). Whilst I drank coffee and read the paper in the cruise this morning one of my mates whose a senior manager with Ernst and Young was in the office catching up on work after putting in a 5 day week with a meeting in London on the Friday which involved getting out of bed at 4am and getting home on the last flight north and being home by 10pm. Since he'd missed a day in the office he has to catch up. All for £60k a year and yes within a few years his salary will probably surpass anything I'll ever be able to earn but he'll still work harder and be miserable in his job! I on the other hand enjoy my job.

Having been in aviation for 12 years I've come to realise that a lot of pilots seem to be divorced from the reality of a career in other industries/professions, it always seems to be cushier for others. Perhaps I'd think the same if the wife didn't work.

However aviation is still a good career. It has it's problems but so does every other career.

[Airbus Girl]

Corsair, I agree, and I think this will come back to bite the airlines. The pool of quality people who would have become pilots is reduced to those who can afford it. That means many good people will be missed and many average or below average rich people will end up getting a licence and a job with an airline, purely because they can afford it and can afford to live on the low starting salaries. I am not for one second saying everyone, of course not, but you get my drift?
The airlines should really try and look a little bit further ahead, and reinstate part-sponsorships, etc.
But some airlines have chosen to go down the new MPL route, where new airline first officers will only have had to fly a "real" aircraft (ie. not a sim) for 60 hours.

[Lembrado]

Scottie

Well said. It's nice to see a positive outlook.

I second your comments. My father is a scientist who works far longer hours doing an infinitely more complex job then I ever will.

The lack of perspective in some is startling.


L.

[Gearupandorrf]

Q: How do you know when BA has landed in Melbourne?
A: You can still hear the whining sound AFTER Engine shutdown.:)

Been in the UK working for nearly 3 years, and have unfortunately met some of the most closed- minded individuals I can imagine. But anyway, in 3 weeks from now it's back to glorious Melbourne to resume life- and you can sleep at night knowing there's at least one less Foreigner invading your land.

Mate it's a Global economy now- get over it!

Have a nice day now,
Gearup.

[Rainboe]

Well I'm sure we all wish you the best and hope it is the employment heaven and wonderland you expect. Throw another shrimp on the barbie.....I'm sure you will be missed!

[Danny]

The pool of quality people who would have become pilots is reduced to those who can afford it. That means many good people will be missed and many average or below average rich people will end up getting a licence and a job with an airline, purely because they can afford it and can afford to live on the low starting salaries.I'm sorry Airbus Girl, but I think that is an ill thought out statement. just because someone can 'afford' to become a professional pilot doesn't mean that they are therefore 'rich'.

Being able to afford to train as a professional pilot means that someone has managed to 'raise' the money. Whether they did that by having someone lend them the money or by whatever means still doesn't make them 'rich'. Aside from my own case where I had to wait until I was in my late 30's before I could 'raise' the money to fulfill my ambition, just about every other professional pilot I have ever met, and I mean the vast majority, are not 'rich' and don't have 'rich' families to support them. They either came from the forces, were luckily sponsored in the early days or else like the vast majority of us, used some of their many skills to scrimp, save and work hard until they had enough assets to raise the necessary funds to progress with their training.

Also, to presume that even if they were from 'rich' stock that they were therefore just average or below average is an insult to the vast majority who are in fact not 'rich' but have managed to pass the same exams that you had to to the same standards. You, especially, should know how hard it can be. Getting the licence is only the start. It matters not one iota how 'rich' you are when you are applying for a job. You will remember your own interview with the same company we both worked for (and I'm assuming you are still with them) and I'll bet you a dime to a dollar that no one was bothered about the state of your or your families bank balance. They knew you had a licence and had some turboprop experience. Apart from that all they wanted to know whether they could spend a long day sat next to you.

So, throwing out statements about how only average or below average rich kids will be the next generation of airline pilots is a gross insult. The majority of us are 'average' but certainly not rich or from rich stock. having conducted interviews myself through the PPRuNe Cadet Pilot scheme, not once did anyones social standing or bank balance come into the equation. They had have the licences which set the minimum standard, the personality to fit in and finally, the ability to show us in the simulator that they could cope with the steep learning curve.

There is still a huge pool of licenced wannabe professional pilots out there. There probably will always be a pool and the competition for the jet jobs will always be fierce. Those with experience will fare best. Some in the pool will fall by the wayside, defeated by the pressures that we all had to face when trying to get our first job. Others will persist at all costs and most of them will eventually realise their dreams.

The biggest problems will be 15-20 years after 9/11 when the pool of youngsters who actually want to become pilots will have dropped to well below the demand of qualified pilots by the ever expanding airlines. For many of us, our first visit to the flight deck during a flight was the trigger that started an ambition. No more will we have the same numbers of wide eyed kids full of questions and awe at the array of technology we deal with every day. No more will there be a pool of young people who will have wondered at the beauty we get to see from our 'office windows'. Until PPRuNe came along ten years ago, how many other resources were there for wannabe pilots to get the inside view of our world? Now that we cannot offer the chance to many young kids the thrill of visiting the flight deck while we are at work, thanks to the terrorists and the neddies who dream up the rules, we are reducing the opportunities to get them hooked on the job.

The salaries and the terms and conditions will always fluctuate depending on market forces. Already, as has been pointed out on this thread, companies are again reverting back to bonding as opposed to SSTR's and the like. What we need is a cohesive fraternity that understands that collective agreements are what protect our livelihoods. Just look at the pay and conditions at the airlines where there is a strong union representation. Airbus girl, you know yourself what a weak representation is worth. There will always be those who are against organisation but the figures themselves show where our colleagues fare best. It matters not one iota how successful a company is if the majority of its workforce are unhappy and intimidated and divided through adverse terms and conditions.

So, please reconsider your broad reaching statement about 'rich' pilots. I have yet to meet more than as many as I can count on my fingers who I would consider as having been 'lucky' to have had the right background and family connections and not one of them was below average. As a percentage of all the professional pilots I have been fortunate to meet over the years, I'd put them at about 1%. The other 99% have had to work hard and risk just about everything to raise the money to even get the licence, never mind their first job.

[supergimp]

Well said Danny, I too think that Airbusgirls post was out of order, I had to work very hard to raise the cash from the banks in order to fund a SSTR. I can assure you, I am not rich, and neither are my parents and I have managed to secure a job.

[Joe le Taxi]

I dont think it was out of order at all - Read it closely - I don't think she was saying what either of you claim.

Inevitably, if a pool of eligible applicants is restricted through anything other than ability, then on average, the number of a given quality will go down. Some aspiring pilots will never be able to afford to fund their own training, however motivated they are. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get out more; to deprived areas where 'credit' means borrowing a few reddies from a guy down the pub.

[supergimp]

I am so tired of listening to people belittling others who have used their initiative and brains to get into such a competitive industry, they are all to quick to point the finger and attribute other peoples success down to them paying their way into the industry through having the cash or having rich parents. I think people who adopt this attitude are narrow minded and are aggrieved by their own short comings more often than not. I am not saying most people are like this, it’s just a minority. Sour grapes me thinks.

[HundredPercentPlease]

...in easyJet... an SFO about £15k more than a hospital doctor (registrar?)
Just to clarify,
A GP registrar earns £46,009.
A hospital registrar earns £41,773.
An eJ SFO earns £35,584, which is not £15,000 more, however bad your maths is.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Danny I'm afraid I have to agree with Joe le Taxi's opinion on Airbus girl's posting. I think this is yet another case of "interpreting the written word in a manner defined by your own attitude or even mood at the time of reading". You appear to know airbus girl and so may have a deeper knowledge of any biases or attitude she may or may not have and so may have formed your interpretation upon that. I have no idea who he or she is at all and in fact had to go back and read her posting after yours and still read it a different way. Basically, reduce the size of the pool and the number of options reduce with it and quite possibly the quality of those remaining options too. :ok:

[Danny]

Perhaps it's time for all wannabes to realise that it is not just your 'aptitude' to flying that needs to be sharp but also your abilities in other areas such as figuring out how to raise the funds to be able to put yourself at the bottom of the pilot food chain. Maybe I should reword my example and state that the only early to mid-twenties pilots you are going to see flying heavy metal are going to be sponsored cadets and some privileged, moneyed individuals.

Unfortunately, the assertion that because it is so expensive to get your licence in the first place means that only rich people will be able to do so is not realistic. Getting the licence is one thing and we are all tested to the same standards. All it means is that we have all passed the minimum standards as set by the certifying authority. Your bank balance has no effect on your ability to actually learn and qualify for the appropriate licence.

If you are now talking about who can get the best job once the ink is dry on the licence then again, it doesn't matter about your bank balance. Maybe some of you are working for airlines that employ SSTR cadets and that has been your criteria for judging the standards of those pilots. However, do you know so much about all those SSTR pilots that you can state categorically that they are all or the majority are just rich kids with no real interest in the job other than the uniform and below average piloting skills?

I had to wait nearly 15 years until I had a house with enough equity in it so I could remortgage it and pay for the licence. I also had to get a local authority grant to help offset the cost of a type rating on a Bandeirante as I had no money left of my own. You don't have to be rich to figure out that there are more than a few ways to raise the necessary funds. Perhaps you are more angry at the thought of all these newly licenced SSTR pilots getting straight into jets rather than going through the long apprenticeship many of us went through, flying small turboprops and so on in all sorts of weather

At the end of the day, you are trained and have to reach certain minimum standards at each stage of your career and that includes your type rating conversions and subsequent line training. I mentioned in my previous post that I have yet to meet any 'rich' pilot who is below average. Well, in my previous job, the airline was also a TRTO and sold type ratings to anyone who could raise the money and had the minimum requirements. They also offered line training for anyone who felt they needed it to enhance their prospects of getting a job. I was not happy about the prospect of some F/O's paying more than the pax to get to their destination but there was not much I could do about it because of my choice to live in a capitalist society.

Anyway, I once had to ride 'shotgun' for one of these SSTR pilots who was also going to pay for line training. He'd obviously passed the conversion course and had done about 10 sectors with a base trainer and had now been released for line training which is where I came in. This young pilot struggled to even tune a radio and talk at the same time. It was fairly obvious that he was struggling to do the job. He was more interested in the uniform and I believe that it was his father or his family who were pressuring him into the job. Needless to say, he never made it through line training even after getting a second chance.

The point I'm trying to make is that your bank balance doesn't decide if you are and average pilot or not. It is your aptitude. If you are rich and you want to become a pilot then it will probably be easier than it was for you, me or the 99% of all other pilots. At the end of the day, rich or poor, you will have to reach the same standards.

For the time being, the number of jobs available is going to continue to grow which means that the demand for pilots will grow. If the pool shrinks enough then the airlines will have to become more involved in the initial training, just as they used to. SSTR's are just a product of market forces. The competition for the jobs on that bottom rung of the ladder will always fierce and bank balance will never be a determining factor as those with the determination and the ability to think outside the circle will always be able to raise the funds one way or another. I suppose it's part of the natural selection we have all gone through to get to where we are today. Some of us happy and content with our work/lifestyle, others not and looking for greener grass. Just remember back to the way you felt when you got your first paying flying job and again when you got your first paying jet job. What sacrifices did you make to get there even if you are a bit more disillusioned these days?

[Scottie]

Just to clarify,
A GP registrar earns £46,009.
A hospital registrar earns £41,773.
An eJ SFO earns £35,584, which is not £15,000 more, however bad your maths is.

Well as an easyJet SFO I earnt about £50k last year which puts me well above the salary of a hospital registrar.


However I was incorrect about the £15k over the registrar hence it was in brackets with a question mark next to it. The true figure is that an easyJet SFO earns over £20k more than a junior doctors starting salary and £8.2k more than a hospital registrar. If you were to compare like with like an easyJet SFO on the TRSS would still earn £10k more than a junior hospital doctor in his first year (£35k plus around £5k in sector payments).

I trust this clarifies any misunderstanding.

Source for salaries;
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=491912006

[MaximumPete]

I agree with Danny on this.

As the eldest of six children I was fortunate, or unfortunate enough, to get clobbered by a car and spent the compensation gaining a PPL. My somewhat unusual route to a PPL brought my name to the top of Geoff Perrott's in-tray at Cambrian Airways who sponsored me for the rest.

The point I'm making is there is one heck of a lot of luck involved in getting on the ladder. You need 110% commitment to get there. You will need this commitment when you fly for an airline. If you're just flying for the money...forget it and go and get a day job.

We've all been there and I'm speaking as a person who has worked as a roadman(grade2) and stoked boilers to raise money to go flying, prior to the argument I lost with the car.

Good luck chaps/chapesses

MP;)

[HundredPercentPlease]

Scottie, I think the Scotsman newspaper might not have painted the full picture. Have a close look at the following NHS information - note that you can earn right up to £169k with time.

You are doing well, sir. My SFO income is around £41k total.

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nhs-knowledge_base/data/5340.html

[Scottie]

Scottie, I think the Scotsman newspaper might not have painted the full picture. Have a close look at the following NHS information - note that you can earn right up to £169k with time.
You are doing well, sir. My SFO income is around £41k total.
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nhs-knowledge_base/data/5340.html

I'm old scale SFO....before they went down the TRSS route :sad:

Had a look at the link and yes £169k is achieveable in the NHS. However there are certain top jobs in aviation where you can earn money close to that. Top scale BA £127k plus allowances will take you close.

The point wasn't about easyJet just that the salary of a pilot is still a good salary considering the average wage is £24k.

If you're after money neither NHS or Aviations is the thing to be in. A mate in software sales made £2m and is now retired in his thirties :ok:

[Danou_71]

Well as an easyJet SFO I earnt about £50k last year which puts me well above the salary of a hospital registrar.
However I was incorrect about the £15k over the registrar hence it was in brackets with a question mark next to it. The true figure is that an easyJet SFO earns over £20k more than a junior doctors starting salary and £8.2k more than a hospital registrar. If you were to compare like with like an easyJet SFO on the TRSS would still earn £10k more than a junior hospital doctor in his first year (£35k plus around £5k in sector payments).
I trust this clarifies any misunderstanding.

Yes, but how much did you spent for your licences, and how much did Easy bonded you for the type rating????? Start by deducting all of these from your salary and then compare, please...

D-71

[Scottie]

I'm not going to get dragged into this arguement about pay. Suffice to say the wage of the average jet commercial pilot is still a very good one.
The job itself still provides a good career and suffers from the pressures put on all careers this century.
Here endeth my contribution!

[Snigs]

I think that one part of the point that Airbus Girl made has been missed. In the most part, what Danny says is correct, you don’t get a professional licence unless you reach the appropriate standard, similarly when in the job you don’t pass the LST, subsequent OPC’s and LPC’s unless you’re competent. However, there must be many people, and I know several, who having reached the required standard who then can’t afford to live and (probably) support a family (having already borrowed/mortgaged to the limit) on the salaries that airlines pay to “junior” FO’s (especially the TP operators). Certainly being “rich” helps with that……

You can argue that you should know what you’re letting yourself into from the beginning, but it doesn’t always work that way. I thought that I’d been very generous with my allocated budget to get me to where I am now, but I still spent more to stay current, renewing IR’s, FIC course and the like. I’ve been flying the line for nearly a year now, and I’m loving every minute of it, I just wish that I didn’t have to work on my standby days and days off as a consultant engineer in order to service my loans and support my family. I’m lucky that I’m able to do that, many others aren’t so lucky….. being “rich” would help with that.

[sidtheesexist]

Danny - with due respect I must take issue with your initial reply to Airbus Girl's post. 'Rich' was perhaps used inappropriately but the point she made was perfectly valid and logical and Wing Commander Fowler and Joe le Taxi were able to see that. I find it inconceivable that you can disagree with her point : that by adding the cost of an SSTR to the total training budget that a self-funded pilot has to finance, then the pool of suitably qualified self sponsored applicants will reduce! The means by which the funding is found is immaterial ( I don't interpret Airbus Girl's post as critical of those persons born into comfortable/wealthy families - after all, they don't get a great deal of say in the matter do they!!!) - it must surely follow that if the amount of funding required to self-sponsor increases, so the number of persons able to obtain said funding must decrease. I sincerely believe that to be the thrust of the post and I for one, agree wholeheartedly. Please correct me Airbus Girl, if I have misinterpretted your post. Also, it is quite preposterous and indeed disingenuous, to suggest that A320 Girl was implying a negative correlation between wealth and piloting ability. Over to you........:ok:

[Hew Jaz]

I prefer to see my cup as half full rather than half empty.


...true that the pessimist sees the cup as half empty, but unfortunately, to the accountants, the cup is twice as big as it needs to be.... :D

[Brat]

Left school 18 studied US Comm Inst Multi prior going to US. (hour is an hour wherever obtained US costs low). Exams taken immediately, fly average three hrs per day to minimise course time/cost on loan of 8 grand. Approx four months. With lucky connection + Com/multi/inst F/O job in ME on CV. Build multi turbine,glass cockpit time, repay loan, study ATPL. Return to UK with 1,200 hrs. Study and take ATPL with money saved in ME. Heaviest costs there.Lucky interview with Charter Co. Low twenties RH seat 320.
Not wealthy but loan, planning ahead, connection for first job, and luck/ right place right time all a part. Exam and flying in UK prohibitively expensive.

[Docfly]

Appears also to be a decline in GA. An interesting presentation from the CAA here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1/Trends%20in%20GA%20M%20Robinson%20201205.pdf
This can only make the current shortage greater in the long run.

[TDF_380]

I started a thread back in Jan 2005 about The Demise of the Professional Pilots Profession.

Reading posts since then and this thread sums it up for many, especially Shortfinalfreds post 31 March.

Every airline I have been in had pay cuts, reduction in conditions, and lost of a day off a week as the companies profits were down.
Management did not do any more work or take a pay cut during these periods.

When things improved our pay and conditions didnt, nor did we get any backpay for the loss in earnings or the extra amount worked.

So imagine my dismay when I joined a countries national airline (not a so called legacy carrier) flying wide bodied jets I thought those days were behind me. Yet about 4 years ago a new CEO was brought in to turn the airline around. He wasnt smart enough to increase revenues, he just cut costs by reducing the pay, allowances, staff, and increased the duties hours up to maximums. Many ot those that had the experience left. Then the CEO departed with a huge bonus on top of his ridiculous salary to let someone else sort out the mess.

The original thread was about a so called pilot shortage, and I guess many hope this will improve pay and conditions that were slashed in recent years.

I believe this will only happen if it is a sustained real pilot shortage, as when our airline had a pilot shortage by many leaving due to the contempt they recieved from management, and resulting cuts to everyones signed contracts, it simply meant those remaining had to work maximum hours to compensate, and pressure was put on pilots to go into discretion regularly when rostered right up to max hours and a slight delay put them over.

So a short term pilot shortage will only mean you will have to work longer hours to operate the existing schedules.
If it was a serious long term shortage, maybe things will improve temporarily until the shortage is over, then these greedy managers and airlines owners will be back to their usual tricks, as the know they can get away with it now, and until we see some serious accidents as a result of fatigue etc the spineless CAAs of the world will sit back and do nothing as they are now.

I believe it is easier to get a job on a jet now, in the older days many had to build hours instructing, charter or turboprops.
Now you can get on a B737, A320 with fewer hours, but once you build up jet hours on these aircraft you still have to problem of trying to get into a reasonable airline with a mix of good pay, good conditions and sufficient time off to spend time with you family etc.
In fact with many so called legacy carriers reducing their fleets, especially there narrow body fleets, it may be harder to get in. How many of you would be happy to fly your B737, A320 working max hours until retirement at 60 or 65 years. Where are you all planning to go once you have built up your flying hours.

MAS is offloading 20 or so B737s and giving the routes to low cost air Asia.

[overstress]

Why is it that every time the discussion turns to pilot salaries we have to endure pages of piffle about what a doctor/surgeon earns in the NHS?? My next-door neighbour is a GP and I couldn't care less what he earns. My friend is a surgeon and I don't give a fig about his remuneration either (although he can afford to keep his PPL(H) current). But if he were to slip up on the operating table, he'd kill at most, one person. The 747 pilot, however...

So as the jobs are different, let's not try to compare the salaries, please.

[johntrav69]

Well I've seen plenty of people losing medicals and instantly their income. I dont see many doctors having that problem. Add to that the constant pressurisation cycles we go through as well as radiation and time zone problems and I feel as if I damn well deserve every penny I get. Especially as the coffee is so bad. Cant even go down Costas!

[idol detent]

Scottie said:

I'm not going to get dragged into this arguement about pay

It was you who was comparing apples n pairs.


Suffice to say the wage of the average jet commercial pilot is still a very good one.


And rightly so - the resposibility is enormous.


The job itself still provides a good career and suffers from the pressures put on all careers this century.


Agreed.




Overstress said:

But if he were to slip up on the operating table, he'd kill at most, one person. The 747 pilot, however...

So as the jobs are different, let's not try to compare the salaries, please.

Amen

Idol

[NOT ORANGE]

My brother in law is a consultant full time which is a three and a half day week no weekends or nights or earlies full index linked pension earns more on his one day a week private work than I did as an Easyjet captain and is never checked or tested.Hows your pension looking Scottie my 36k was turned into 35k after 5 years with Easy which would have given me a 12k a year pension at 60 which in the UK would pay your electricity bill just.

[smith]

Not Orange

Feel free to do a law degree and become a consultant, 5 years at Uni will cost you approx £60k anyway. Will you be happy leafing through small print all day? or would you rather be on a flight deck?

[Scottie]

Hows your pension looking Scottie my 36k was turned into 35k after 5 years with Easy which would have given me a 12k a year pension at 60 which in the UK would pay your electricity bill just.

It's doing very well thanks. Well the annual compound return is 20.8% for the number of years it's been in so you should have kept your money there :ok:

[M80]

Smith - It is my understanding that Not Orange is talking about his brother-in-law being a consultant, which I assume to mean in the medical industry.
Supergimp - It sounds like you have had a skin full of being told about the errosion to starting conditions caused by SSTRs, etc... and this is affecting your judgement. If anything, trudging the now common path of SSTR straight after Integrated course is anything but using "their initiative and brains to get into such a competitive industry." [post 39] And unlike you state in your previous post [post 37] it isn't that much work to get a bank to lend you money. It's one of the many ways banks turn a very healthy profit. This is herd mentality and it has changed the face of the industry for low houred pilots. Brat, on the other hand, does seem to have gone against the grain [post 52], been creative, saved money compared to the SSTR brigade and succeeded. That is more inspiring. Perhaps he might have sour grapes about the 25K you have been able to spend on the SSTR? No? OK, maybe not... ;)