The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam

[speedy688]

I know there are a lot of threads out there going over modular vs integrated training, but it would take ages to go through it all and note all the advantages & disadvantages.

Can anyone who can think of pros & cons for each submit them here (assume we don't go to war with Saddam) as there are a lot of people trying to make up there mind and this would be an easy reference.

Thanks

[Jodiekeyz]

Check out the following document which specifies approved FTO's and lists integrated and modular courses.

CAA approved FTO's (integrated and modular) (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF)

:ok:

[fastjet2k]

Modular pilots are less rich, work harder, and are motivated(it is a fact), when integrated students are living in a castle, have a rolex and a ferrari paid by dady.

What a crock of crap... Believe me mate, I wish it was true - as it is I find myself in the most skint position I've ever been in, I don't have a car at all whilst I'm in Spain (and I wish I could afford a decent one in the UK) and as for the rolex, if I had one I'd have flogged it a long time ago to ease the cashflow crisis.

And as for saying that Modular pilots work harder and are more motivated than Integrated pilots, don't get me started.........:mad:

[EK4457]

Hello all.

Basically, after researching this topic to the point of insanity, I have narrowed my choice down to two options:

Option 1 (Modular)

Bear in mind that I'm currntly employed by an airline ops and earn quite good money (for this industry). I'm not in a rush to quit. So, my modular plan is:

Save £5k in the next few months and then go to the US to finish off my PPL. There is a fast track course which claims to do it within a month run by EFT (Florida). I could take the month off as holiday.

When I come back, go down to part time hours at work and enrol on a distance learning course to complete my ATPL exams (Im still deciding which of 2 schools to use). Although hard to say, I think I can do this in 8 months.

Once those are out of the way, I will have fairly easily saved another 5K. This will enable me to go and do my hour building (SA, Canada perhaps).

Once ready for the big boy stuff, either take unpaid leave for 13 weeks (if the boss lets me) or quit my job. Buy a CPL/IR/MEP/MCC package at a reputable school (maybe one of the ones that do integrated). For this I would take out a £20k-£25k loan. Still a lot of money but I could sleep at night.

Then ask for my old job back and be yet another dispatching pilot!

Compare with option 2 (Integrated)

FTE at Jerez where I've already been accepted. I would put forward £20k and take a loan for the rest. Obviously a lot more debt as the course is more expensive, I can work for most of the modular route AND live at home.
Less chance (still some) of the dispatching pilot scenario.

I know a lot of you will say the modular route is the best one. I have to say that it looks very appealing to me for lots of different reasons. The main one is that I can structure it to my timescale and therefore maximising income and minimising out goings.

Just wondered what people's thoughts were, particularly on the realism of my modular option as there are lots out there who have bought the teeshirt.

Thanks,

EK

[topcat450]

I'd say you're plan for modular sounds OK. If it were me I'd not be going down to part time hours at work during the ATPL ground school - but each to their own. It will undoubtedly make the studying easier and if you can cope with the drop in income thats OK I guess.

Again from a purely personal point of view, the 8 months without flying would annoy me awaiting to go to SA or similar for the hours building. If you could hour build whilst over here for a cheap rate then that might be worth considering. Still - thats a way off yet. Step 1 is to get your PPL. Good luck.

[EK4457]

Thanks topcat,

I have to agree, the weakest point of my plan is the groundschool phase. I'm pretty focused when it comes to these sorts of things but I understand that there is a hell of a lot to learn.

I guess you just have to bite the bullet at some point and actually do it. I could sit here weighing up my options for another 18 months but I already get the feeling I'm going around in circles. I'll probably make some choices I'll regret. But at least I'm on the road to the fATPL.

In all honesty, my personal and financial situation make the decision for me. Modular it is! (a few who have read my posts over the last 2 weeks will be utterly flabagasted I'm sure!!:p )

Also disproves claims that Integrated 'sympathisers' have a snobby attitude towards mod bods!

EK.

[Vee One...Rotate]

EK4457,

I think a good point is made by reading between the lines of your last couple of posts.

One person's best route is not necessarily another's. God bless choice - each to his/her own. Some routes may be impossible for some whereas otheres tick all the right boxes.

V1R

[apoball]

EK

I'm studying for my ATPL theory with Bristol; so I'm not in a 'flying stage' of training at the moment but, in the mean time I'm keeping the hours ticking over and keeping my costs relatively low by taking friends and family on trips. After-all, you're permitted to split the cost of aircraft hire.

It keeps you interested when the books start getting a bit heavy!

APO

[ask26]

What a thread!! I too am totally unsure about the difference between the courses.

In terms of modular, I was thinking maybe Riverside all-in package in 46 weeks (including fees, food and accom) - works out to £31000 with 195hrs (100twin - is that useful???) and do the GS at home with the odd hour building in the UK to keep ticking over.

Then do the MCC and JOC at OAT or maybe the Airline Bridge Course at Jerez.

I agree with many posts that it's horses for courses, but for me I'd like to be flying outside Europe asap as one of my main motivations for flying is the chance to travel to far-flung destinations so the faster I can get into an airline that allows that the better.

Hmm, that doesn't really help me much does it? Am at the penultimate stage for OAT, Jerez and WAAC so a bit confuzzled and I get the feeling it will be a case of making a choice and sticking to it, just making sure that you nag airlines whichever route you go.

The one thing is favour perhaps is that in modular you have to go looking whereas integrated they don't necessarily come looking but they at least will have heard of the school and some airlines do look to sponsor/keep close tabs on the recruits going through their schools so you are more in the wannabees loop?

[Trainee pilot Kitson]

Please also can anyone tell me the diffrence please

http://digital-reality.co.uk/acf/

oh and the click on courses and then fATPL

Thanks all

Can any one help me please

[scroggs]

As far as I am aware, the only UK-based providers of Integrated training courses are Oxford and Cabair, plus FTE in Spain.

[Gufo]

That's an American school, isn't it? They're speaking FAA licences, I'm not sure that's what you want..

Anyway, the difference is rather easy:

modular - you get your licences one by one. First PPL, then CPL/IR, then the ground course for the fATPL.

integrated - One BIG course including every aspect from scratch up to the fATPL (in case of an ATPL integrated course).

[mad_jock]

The full list of approved schools is in this link

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF

cheers

[BillieBob]

The answer is that it is neither an integrated course nor a modular course within the meaning of JAR-FCL 1 - it is no course at all. This outfit would appear to be acting as some sort of agent, directing training to other approved organisations in the UK (apparently BGS and Tayflite).

If you wish to throw money at someone to organise your modular courses for you then Angel City Fliers are probably as good, or bad, as any other agency. However, you would probably find it a great deal cheaper to do your own research and organise your own training. You may end up doing groundschool with BGS and the flying with Tayflite but at least you would not be paying a premium to Angel City Fliers for the privilege.

[NDB]

Can anyone tell me why airlines prefer Integrated than Modular?

Integrated=Someone who fell out of bed and wants to be a pilot, prepared to take out a stupid size loan, they might have done a 30 min trial lesson and they want to get a licence in 150 hours!!

Modular=Someone who has tried the flying thing, liked it wants to progress and is prepared to change their career for it. Has experienced over 12 months (general) of weather, good and bad!! Plus 200 hours experience before they are given the keys to a few peoples lives!! Also the difference in price you pay for the type rating if needed?


NDB


P.S. Can anyone tell me why BA and some others don't touch modular??

[BigGrecian]

P.S. Can anyone tell me why BA and some others don't touch modular??

Not true I know of modular guys taken on by BA and other Majors.
Don't believe all the marketing and advertising some of the large FTOs put out.

[dlav]

Integrated=Someone who fell out of bed and wants to be a pilot, prepared to take out a stupid size loan, they might have done a 30 min trial lesson and they want to get a licence in 150 hours!!


How dare you be so narrow minded, and who the hell are you to pass judgement?

I hope your going to back that statement up because you have just offended alot of pilots. If you had any sense of reality then you would know that it takes more "than falling out of bed" to decide to become an airline pilot.

For some, integrated is the preferred option, for others, modular may be the preferred option. Its a matter of personal circumstance.

[Strepsils]

You're so right ndb. The reason airlines choose integrated people is because they were intelligent enough to take the easy route. You just write a cheque for £60k or so and a few weeks later a nice shiny licence drops through your door, it's great! It shows initiative for getting the job done as efficiently as possible and that's what the airlines want.

Next week, I'm going to the bank for a £25million loan because this morning when I woke up I decided I wanted to be an astronaut.:ok:

[Send Clowns]

NDB

They do, they just don't want a flood of CVs so they stipulate integrated. Very rarely done anyway - e.g. Citiexpress specifically ask for JAA modular. They often don't even know what course you've done, nor do they care. Most recruiters know nothing about the flight-training system.

[hedges81]

Hi all, I am currently weighing up the options of working up to a frozen ATPL by both the modular and integrated routes.

I am aware of the advantages/ disadvantages of each in term of cost, time, continuity etc, however I have read various things (mostly written by the integrated training organisations themselves) which say that airlines prefer pilots to have done integrated training. Other sources however say it does not make much difference.

Does anyone have any opinions on this, and if it is true that airlines prefer integrated traing why might that be the case?Surely at the end of the day a license is a license, no matter how you got hold of it?

Cheers, I look forward to some interesting replies.

Hedges

[mad_jock]

And once you have done the search you still won't be any wiser.

To be honest i think most modular guys really can't be bothered arguing with the Intergrated chaps now as its like banging your head off a brick wall. Mind you if i was trying to justify paying an additional 30 grand I might want to justify it to myself as well. At work there is no difference, at interviews both will be there. Sim tests both intergrated and modular will be there. Same blue book at the end.

And after 500 hours on the line nobody will be able to tell if you were intergrated or modular. The intergrated SA and handeling skills will have caught up with the modular :=

Basically it's your choice if you believe the marketing from the intergrated companys. There is more than enough modular ex wannbies out there to prove you don't need a intergrated course to get a flying job. But its your money spend it how you like.

[Megaton]

Hedges81,

Count to 10. Have a bit of a search and then ask yourself if there was really any point in wasting the bandwidth. Look back through the threads and the argument has been thrashed, inconclusively, to death a zillion times.

And please try to be civil. You won't get much help, respect or support if you continue to be as abrasive.

[veetwo]

Sure, there has been a lot of debate about integrated versus modular over the years. However, I don't think anyone should be having a go at Hedges 81.

Things CHANGE. What might have been true 6 months ago might not be true now. The Airlines are continually making announcements about what they like/don't like, visiting schools, etc etc. A fresh, unbias, look at things is required once in a while.

That said, here is a sensible answer to your post:

Everyone has their own opinion. The Modular guys will tell you how integrated is a con and they are just out to get your money. The Integrated guys will tell you that modular is a dieing art and that airlines are only really interested in low-hours pilot's who have been trained via the integrated route.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between. The price difference is a LOT. For some people, the integrated route is not even an option due to financial restrictions (I suspect this is a source of much of the bitterness there is around). Do you really get any extra bang for your buck at an integrated school?

The answer, in my humble opinion, is to do your research thoroughly and pick the option that suits you personally. Visit modular schools, visit integrated schools. Look at the facilities, the course, the pass rates, the employment rates, and balance all that against the cost. Is it value for money? Will you work better in a classroom than via distance learning? How self disciplined can you be? How fast do you want/need to get your licence? How will you pay back the money? Can you get the money?

In my mind at least, I simply cannot "buy in to" the theory that modular students stand an equal chance of getting employed in the months after graduation. I have seen, at my own local club, enough modular graduates moaning over job prospects to know this. Now, the modular camp will hit back and say that "sure, there are modular guys out there without a job, but you better believe there are a load of integrated students without them as well!!". This, no doubt, is true. However its about ratios. Go by the numbers, what do the actual employment statistics tell you?

This can be where it gets tricky. The integrated schools, who run open days and seminars (FTE, OAT, Cabair etc) will tell you their success rates and they sound very impressive. I'm no fool, and I know not to believe everything I hear but this is the problem I have: The modular schools simply dont tell you ANYTHING. From the schools I have spoken to (and I've researched a serious amount over the last few months) the modular schools tend not to run seminars.. not to have numbers to hand and be much less fussed about promoting their product. I don't know why.

At the close of play, it is your money and you have to go with your gut instinct. Which is the best way to get a job, quickly? My own flying instructor with whom I trained for my PPL was in no doubt that integrated was the way to go (himself being an modular guy). I think a lot of this comes down to changing times. Airlines have realised that its much easier to have an agreement with a big flight training school, who will put forward a select few names (and all the candidates will have a full training record available) as opposed to sifting through thousands of CV's sent in by private applicants. Its just a simpler life for the HR people.

My personal view having spoken to modular people, to integrated people, having visited both types of school and done extensive research elsewhere, is that integrated (IF you are lucky enough to be able to afford it) is the way to go. However unfair it may be, airlines like BA citi express only go to show the type of candidate the airline industry is increasingly selecting.

V2.

(BTW - I think it stinks to high heaven that we have to pay for ANY training. As my parents have always pointed out to me, "Can you think of any other profession where you are expected to cough up that amount of cash just to get qualified - with no offer of a job at the end of it!!!!!???? But thats aviation!)

[mad_jock]

hedges i think you need to get a life

RANT ON

Wannbies runs off people who have just got there. Parting with information to those who want to be there.

Those people who have stopped being wannabies and are doing the job who caN ACTUALLY BE ARSED to reply to threads in wannabies get knocked down by some prat who hasn't even wet there head in the aviation world.

To be honest its becoming a bore. We as as ex wannabies posters, who actually have jobs flying things get told we are stroppy, talking ****e, no that can't be because XXXX marketing says thats all wrong this is what the airlines want.

You have WWW who has done the modular route teached to CPL level worked as an FO been upgraded to Captain on LCO. He apprently knows bugger about the industry even though he has met and spoken to must be getting onto tripe figures of failed and proven wannabies who get jobs. Scroggs who even although he was taught to fly be auntie bettys flying Club has worked in the industry since i was a wannabie and has never given bad advice that i have seen. And people on this forum think that they actually make the advice up that they give!!!!

Scroggs and WWW say that ATPL results don't matter along with the other 15 current pilots all flying the line (that can be arsed arguing) They must be talking ****e because my m8 who holds an instructor rating who still hasn't got a job yet after 2 years says they matter. PISH.

Should i do Intergrated should i do modular. You can listen to a heap of people who are currently doing the course or you can listen to people ( if they haven't lost the will to live banging their heads against the wall) tell you different.

What do you all want?

Do you want ex wannabies to post what its really like or do you just want us to shut up and let you do what you want?

Are you posting to get confirmation you have made the right choice and then get pissed off becuase you haven't or are you really wanting advice on the way forward?

RANT OFF

MJ

Things CHANGE. What might have been true 6 months ago might not be true now. The Airlines are continually making announcements about what they like/don't like, visiting schools, etc etc. A fresh, unbias, look at things is required once in a while.

They haven't actually its all run off PR crap its still the same blokes hiring. To my knowledge it hasn't chnaged for a 4 years. The marketing ****e has changed depending on who has been wine and fed with wannabies money.

And the country is filled with instructors who can't get a job because of personal issues with thier CV, interview technique, life history, just bloody unlucky. Why do you want to listen to someone who hasn't made it instead of some one that has?

[zedex7rrrrrrr]

I think the only things that has changed recently is the increase in self-sponsored type rating gamblers who, if trained at one of the better organisations, are increasingly getting jobs.

If your ONLY deciding factor in the integrated vs modular route dilemna is "Will I get a job right away?", then I'd say don't do the integrated route unless you are in your mid-twenties or younger and are pretty confident of getting good results in groundschool and 1st time passes in CPL and IR tests. If you fit this bill, you are likely to get a recommendation from the flight school to the airlines that they associate with. If you don't, they'll wash your hands of you as soon as they receive the final payment.

If you don't fit the bill, for the same money you could complete a modular course and buy a TR (at a reputable TRTO). Same money but hugely improved chances of getting a job.

If you wish to comment on paying for a TR, please do so in one of the many other forums where this topic has, likewise, been beaten to death without conclusion.

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is my two pence worth. :cool:

[veetwo]

Zedex,

The problem with that is, HSBC withdrew their professional studies loan. Short of a miracle, how is someone supposed to get the money for that now?

I'm a real advocate of the theory that you have to work hard to get places, so sure you could work for 5 years to try and save up the money for the CPL/IR and type rating - but I'm betting if you're in your mid to early 20's you won't even get close to the amount required. By the time you do.. you're getting old. Catch 22.

V2

[flaps to 60]

Hedges

At first I was going to give a reasoned answer to your question then I saw your reply to Silver and thought I'd say this.

"Dont bother with either as with that attitude you would get murdered in a modern airline flight deck".

Then I thought well that would be the same knee jerk reaction you gave to someone who's intentions I'm sure were honourable.

As hamphisted said
And please try to be civil. You won't get much help, respect or support if you continue to be as abrasive.

If I were you I would ask the airlines as im sure you will be aware that on this website you will get hundreds of different answers and all valid.

I did and by and large they said "intergrated".

I hope this has helped because it is an important question........at least to you.

I wish you luck in your cjoice and progression into the best job on the planet.....or above it if you get my drift.

[mad_jock]

The problem with that is, HSBC withdrew their professional studies loan. Short of a miracle, how is someone supposed to get the money for that now?

Have you thought why HSBC have finished with doing those loans?

It because its bad business. The jobs arn't out there or if they are they are not paying enough to service a 60k loan. Turbo prop starting salary is somewhere between 17k-23K so call it 20k. Thats 3 times the loan amount. You could just get a morgage on a secured property for that amount on that salary. All it takes is for a few people to go bankrupt and any profit they have been making out of the scheme has gone.

Flaps to 60 I wouldn't mind knowing which airlines told you intergrated. Because recently all the airlines currently taking low hour pilots have taken both Modular and Intergrated graduates. So what HR are telling people and what the Chief Pilots are hiring seems to be at a difference.

[Longchop]

Im modular and i got a job 6 months after training with 230hrs!

Hedges, you sound like a bit of a tool:p . What MJ says is true. Its been done to death and nobody can answer your quesion.

For interests sake my airline prefers Integrated but that doesnt explain why my course were all modular!


I'll give you an answer to your question-

Do the course that suits your budget.


The question you should be asking is -

Is it what you know or who you know?

[veetwo]

Have you thought why HSBC have finished with doing those loans? It because its bad business. The jobs arn't out there or if they are they are not paying enough to service a 60k loan. Turbo prop starting salary is somewhere between 17k-23K so call it 20k. Thats 3 times the loan amount. You could just get a morgage on a secured property for that amount on that salary. All it takes is for a few people to go bankrupt and any profit they have been making out of the scheme has gone.

They haven't stopped doing them. They have stopped doing them for modular candidates. If you go to Flight Training Europe, or Oxford Aviation and pass the aptitude testing HSBC will still lend you up to £50k via a professional studies loan. They will not however do it for people using a modular school.

Using your analogy therefore, I would have to say that HSBC have reasoned that the loan itself isn't bad business, but something about modular training poses a greater risk. Presumably they judge that integrated students are in a better position to pay back the money at the end of the course.

None of this answers the real problem for potential modular students: Post HSBC, how do you get the £30/35k required to train, plus whatever you might need for a JOC/Type rating, whilst still being young enough on graduation to be attractive to the airlines?

The only way I can see of doing it is to do one module at a time, and instruct for several years. Nothing wrong with that at all either, it just depends whether you are instructor material or not.

V2

P.S I think there is real value to getting an Instructor rating and using it, and I personally think its a very good idea. Someone once told me that the best way of getting to know a subject better, is to teach it.

[mad_jock]

its called risk offset the school is covering the banks risk so they can actually stay running.

If there wasn't risk offset the option of Intergrated would disappear very quickly.

Each school must have about 15 students every 3 months willing to garantee through a loan or cash 60k. Which works about 3.6 million cash flow per school per year.

The applitude test is a laugh and a half as anyone who has been to it knows. Does anyone actually know anyone who has failed who has passed the credit check?

So the only reason you are getting a loan is because the school HAS to get one or they will go bust. They share the risk with the bank of you going bankrupt.

For interests sake my airline prefers Integrated but that doesnt explain why my course were all modular!

Well that about sums up all the bloody crap out there with the HR departments. ITS ALL BOLLOCKS SAVE YOUR 30K if all the wannbies out there did modualar for 6 months there wouldn't be an option. OAT, CABAIR, and BAe would be all gone.

[Dozza2k]

training to fly is all about what happens at the end of it, the elusive first job.

I trained integrated as I realised there would be a whiff of an increased chance of a job as a few hiring airlines took only integrated.

I think the presence of this forums is for helping one another and maybe a bit of banter but sniping at each other...........:(

[scroggs]

Much of this argument hinges on what sort of job you expect at the end of your ab-initio training. Until fairly recently, it was accepted that a baby pilot with less than 1000 hours would have to do an apprenticeship on air-taxis, night freight or TP commuters - or the military - before they would get a sniff at an airline job. Now, all Wannabes seem to assume that unless they're in the RHS of a 737 5 minutes after graduation, they've failed.

The fact is that there are quite a few ab-intio students who are picked up by the jet operators after only 250 or so hours. I, and many other experienced pilots, don't like it, but accountants run these companies, not pilots. Accountants like an easy, ready-made product that they can order in advance from organisations big enough to absorb the vicissitudes of their supply and demand equation, hence courses like Oxford's APP and CTC's set up. You'll note that CTC's course is modular, not integrated - which blows the 'airlines prefer integrated' argument right out of the water!

However, the airlines that take the product from OAT, CTC Cabair and FTE Jerez are careful not to put all their eggs in one basket. They still recruit from other places, including from the time-served guys who've done the traditional apprenticeships mentioned earlier. There are also many, many airlines and small operators that aren't interested in the sausage-machine product and actually prefer the guys who've shifted heaven and earth, while working in a supermarket, to achieve their goal.

In short, you could go any route to your CPL and be left without a job. You could be lucky and get a job at EZ or similar immediately on leaving your school, but you'll have missed out on some great experiences on smaller, more demanding aircraft.

The modular route is not dying. There are some changes in the way the voracious demands of the low-costers are satisfied, but there are still opportunities with them and with many other places for the less-well-off student who is forced to go the modular route on a budget. It's not so straightforward, and might require more effort, but it's still possible.

Scroggs

[RowleyUK]

Until fairly recently, it was accepted that a baby pilot with less than 1000 hours would have to do an apprenticeship on air-taxis, night freight or TP commuters - or the military - before they would get a sniff at an airline job.


No offence but do you not class a TP job as an airline job?

Modular or integrated? Modular all the way.......You might have the money to do the course but will it be good enough to get you through.....even worse will you be good enough to pass the conversion course?

[silverknapper]

Chocks, MJ, flaps - cheers guys. Can' be bothered with jumped up newbies who register just to ask questions and get personal when you tell them what they don't want to hear.
MJ is right, we will never see a definite conclusion to this argument.
A couple of points this has kicked up to consider:

the modular schools tend not to run seminars.. not to have numbers to hand and be much less fussed about promoting their product. I don't know why.
Modular schools are busy, and don't need to run after business. Nor do they have to run expensive seminars at the students expense.
As Scroggs says, CTC is modular. End of story.
If modular is the 'poor relative' why are Oxford relaunching their new fangled modular courses? And while you ask them that, ask who is paying for the marketing!!!!!!

[Atreyu]

I personally think it stinks either way, modular students don't get a look and integrated is wince-makingly expensive, for what though? Still a CAA test to to earn your CPL, still CAA ATPL exams. I think scroggs had it with the sausage factory comment, Airlines like integrated because they are taught to fly like they are flying an airliner from day 1. Its easier to fit a low hours integrated pilot into an EFIS cockpit than a similar modular pilot. The price is astronomical because you really do pay for the brand of a company like CTC or OAT etc. Although if you could do a modualar course at OAT would that be looked upon negatively purely based on whether the training was integrated or modualar in structure? :confused:

It's certainly a pickle

x- Atreyu -x

[scroggs]

Caudillo, if you are trying to find some kind of conspiratorial anti-FTO subversive intent in my post, you are fantasising. I don't know quite what's happening on your planet, but it seems a long way from the reality that I observe. I have no 'agenda'; I simply pass comment on what I see in an industry I have observed for 30 years.

Rowley Are you trying to deliberately misunderstand me too, or is everyone a little hormonal today? ;)

Atreyu you obviosly have read little and understood less. As I thought I made clear, plenty of modular students are getting jobs. CTC's course is modular not integrated!

Flying training costs a lot of money, whichever way you do it. That's a fact of life and isn't going to change anytime soon. You have the option of spending rather less than the integrated schools would like to charge you, if you wish to take it. For many, modular may be the only way they can afford to contemplate this career. I am trying to reassure you that jobs are still available for those who choose this route, but that you may have to consider a couple of extra steps on the ladder to a jet job. If you can't countenance that, then this career is possibly not for you.

As for moaning about those who can afford to go to OAT's APP or similar, don't waste your breath. There will always be people with more money than you who can afford things you can't. Get over it. Make the best of your own life rather than wasting energy being jealous of others. In any case, you may have no idea of the sacrifices those APP students may have made to find the money to do that course. Having £90k to spend on your training does not necessarily mean that you have a rich daddy.

Scroggs

[RowleyUK]

Rowley Are you trying to deliberately misunderstand me too, or is everyone a little hormonal today?

Not at all old chap! Just a little wind up thats all!:=


The modular v Integrated argument is pointless.........simple as!

[Atreyu]

so scroggs u disagree that with an OAT integrated course your paying your way into an airline job quicker? why would I be jealous? i could raise the funds to go to OAT ;) and i know fine well that modualar students get jobs, but surely it must be that
your integrated 250 +/- hour pilots are above your modualar pilots in preference? correct if I'm wrong please :)

no disrespect intended =) you know far more than me.

x-Atreyu-x

[scroggs]

so scroggs u disagree that with an OAT integrated course your paying your way into an airline job quicker?

No, I don't disagree. I believe that the balance of jet employment possibility is in favour of those students who can afford to do Oxford's APP, CTC's scheme, or FTE's or Cabair's similar courses. That is the way the industry is going, and the way the airlines want it. There's nothing strange or sinister about this; it seems to have taken a long time for employers to wake up to the fact that, if they want reliable ab-initio pilots, and they're not going to provide the training themselves, they have to sub-contract to large organisations that run formal, audited and accountable courses. BA used to understand that, Lufthansa and Air France still do, as do the RAF and most other military organisations.

However, there seems to be a perception developing that unless you do one of these courses, you will have no chance of becoming an airline pilot. That, of course, is rubbish. You may have less (not no) chance of stepping straight into a jet cockpit, but you are certainly not disqualified from becoming a jet pilot. You may have to accept that you'll need to spend some time instructing, or flying in less 'glamorous' roles, but so what? You'll still get there if you have the ability and want it enough.

I think, though, you'll have to get used to the idea that this is the way things are going. Flying is a safety-critical occupation, and legislators will increasingly insist on greater supervision and control of the training process. Continuity combined with continuous assessment (as practised in military training) will, I think, eventually become compulsory. That is expensive, and - at least in part - explains why the courses mentioned above cost a lot more than the modular approach can do.

You wouldn't be too happy if your doctor did his training at home and in spare time away from his regular job, and did much of his learning unsupervised. You'd want to be very sure he was up to the job if your reputation (or your life) depended on his professional ability, yet you had little or no access to his training record. That is the problem for employers looking at the ex-modular student who did courses as and when he could afford them while continuing to earn a living. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it exists, and you have to be prepared for its consequences if you choose that route - the major one of which is that a jet airline would prefer someone else to take the risk of being that pilot's first employer!

The desire to fly does not confer on you the right to fly. As the UK (like many countries) does not offer financial support to those undergoing flying training - or many other speculative qualifications - yet insists that the training becomes increasingly rigorous, you will find that the cost continues to rise above general inflation. That is not going to change. There are no current proposals to make continuous training compulsory, but I suspect that they are not that far off. In other words, if you can't raise the money for the full-time courses, don't wait too long to start training!

Scroggs

[flaps to 60]

Mad_Jock

I must admit that was a few years ago when this hot bed of recruitment was just a wet dream.

I know my CP loves intergrated but most of the chaps/chappeses comming through are a mix of everything.

I guess at the momment it really doesn't matter as long as you are the "RIGHT" person.

Some airlines are still doing Intergrated courses others are doing modular, at this particular time i really dont think it matters.

I've said it before and i'll say it again it's who you know rather than what you know and the "We'll take a monkey with a CPL", is still some time off but definitely on the horizon".

Silver

No problem. I know what you meant and the manner in which you meant it. Hot heads will always be arround but as you know not for long.

Scroggs
if they want reliable ab-initio pilots, and they're not going to provide the training themselves, they have to sub-contract to large organisations that run formal, audited and accountable courses. BA used to understand that, Lufthansa and Air France still do, as do the RAF and most other military organisations.

This may well be the answer for many and is probably most correct.

I thought BA were still picking the cream of the crop from OAT's intergrated APP?

[Atreyu]

yeah scroggs got the point i think. Perhaps if modular was made more accountable and training records made available to airlines we wouldn't even be dicussing this topic? I guess thats where all the cost starts to pile up and it might as well be intergrated :(

food for thought though

x-Atreyu-x

[scroggs]

BA are taking a few ab-initio guys, but not just from Oxford. As I understand it, they've been knocking on the doors of all the integrated schools. I don't know if they've been to CTC, though. However, the number they're taking pales into insignificance compared to the Direct Entry route - and for that, you need a minimum of only 400 hours on a useful type.

The problem with making a modular course more accountable is that it's expensive, which nullifies one of its major advantages to the Wannabe! It also would probably mean the end of any unsuprvised hour-building - i.e. more money. The major airlines would prefer baby pilots to be given to them having continuously trained from PPL to TR without a break, preferably with continuity of instruction and reporting. That's exactly what APP and the others offer; whether they are integrated or modular is irrelevant - they all cost about the same! However, these schemes don't (yet) output enough people to satisfy the airlines' demands, and the smaller operators can't afford the fees involved and so won't use them unless they are forced to by legislation.

At the moment, there are plenty of jobs out there so the non-structured course student still stands a chance with that jet job. Once the cycle turns (as it always does), then the structured-course stude may have a serious advantage - until recruiting stops altogether, as it frequently has in the past. Of course, that advantage only lasts while the student is current and very recently graduated. Once a few months have passed, the advantage over the non-structured student is considerably reduced.

As always, what course of action you take is something of a gamble. That's always been the case, and is unlikely to change.

Scroggs

[mad_jock]

Its easier to fit a low hours integrated pilot into an EFIS cockpit than a similar modular pilot

Nah EFIS takes about 20 mins to sort out hand flying with your scan. But the learning curve how to get the thing into to the groove on the automatics will take the same for either type of pilot.

Its not that i am anti intergrated. What i am anti is the marketing and the perception of what you will get after a Intergrated training course. And as people have said the ONLY advantage you get is for your first job and first type rating. After that all the advantage is gone.

And from the poeple I know recently who have got jobs its more about your life experence than where you trained.

If you have 2 applicants for a job one who went straight from school/Uni to OAT. Hobbies football, and pulling the oppersite sex, and drinking alot (Unfortunatly Manx have gone you would have been well in with them). And you have a Modular trained pilot same age who was say a special constable, An officer in the TA, did VSO in some hell hole.

Your overall chances of getting a job after training in my opinion would be enhanced more by running around Sennybridge with a gat getting paid 2k a year by the TA than spending an additional 20k to fund a huge marketing deptment in one of the Intergrated schools.

And i know for a fact that i was included in OAT figures for getting a job as a modular student. When all i did with them was the ground school.

They are grasping at straws to try and show that you get a job with OAT on your CV.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/career/career-03.htm

And you can see how great the marketing dept at OAT is they can't even add 2 totals together apparently if you look at BMI baby 12+6 equals 20. And the totals at the bottom 87+56 equals 150. They can't even fiddle the numbers properly.

If it was 5k more i would say go for Intergrated. 10k I would be bitching but might go for it. But 20k+ no bloody way.

MJ

Edited to add you can see that also out of 23 companys that Oxford Graduates have got jobs there is only 3 that have any real appeared preference for the APP program. So thats 13% of the jobs. If we take an average class size of 15 every 3 months and out of that the top 5 get put forward for those jobs (33% of the class). I know the numbers are made up but if you take the real class sizes and I am sure the current students can tell us and the number that go straight off into emplyment in the first six months. That means you have increased your chances of getting a jet job by 4.5% in the first 6 months all for 20k-30k more than a modular graduate. but of course that list of employers is far from complete so when you take all the growing companys you could maybe add another 10 that are recruiting currently. It increases your chances of getting a job by less than 4%.
You would be better sticking 20k on the fav in the Grand National than paying the extra for the Intergrated course.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ahh, the Nature v Nurture debate for the flying community.


There is only one advantage to an Integrated course. It is the fact that an airline may *need* FO's and will call that school and ask for x students to be listed to attend an interview if they are due to graduate between date z and y and then only if the CFI likes them.

Now, this simply stopped happening after Sept 11th and didn't start happening again until about a year ago in a very small way. Flybe's sudden phone call to OATS was the alert call and since then the recruiting by several well known airlines has confirmed the fact that we are back to a Pre Sept 11th state of affairs.

This has all been before.

What happened last time (and it was called 1997) is that loads of people suddenly jacked in the day job and enroled in pilot school causing a glut a year later. ALL FTO's are doing a roaring trade at the moment.

My view therefore is that since Sept 12th 2001 there was little merit in paying the premium to go Integrated. That this started to change 12 months ago and that the premium from here on in MAY be worth paying.

But it is a gamble. UNLESS an airline DOES look to pick up some Integrated students and you ARE going to graduate within the correct dates and the CFI DOES like you - then its a premium wasted.

The actual quality of training is no different and sometimes much better at the good Modular schools.

The premium for Integrated is balanced against the chance of an airline calling your school and offering you a job a few weeks later.

Its your call. Its tricky. I'm a pessimist when it comes to careers so I'd save the money and go Modular. But that's just me.

Good luck,

WWW

[mad_jock]

Actually the price of the modular courses is pretty good at OAT.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/skills/mod-05.htm

The proffesional package 1 seems about right

CPL - MEP - IR - MCC £20,295

Distance learning & ground school £2,700

Exams £700

Even PPL £6,000

Commercial flight tests £3,000

Hour building in the states call it 50 bucks an hour £5,000

Stick on 2k for living expenses

And £4,000 for cock ups.

Thats £44,000

Now thats worth thinking about. Your PPL will be done by instructors who will have been through the OAT QA process. So that should keep you in good stead for CPL. So even though it seems a bit expensive its proberly worth it. The CPL instructors will be the same ones as the Intergrated course as will the IR.

You could do it cheaper but only by 3-4k and you would still have Oxford all over your CV. The airline would still have access to all the records.

MJ

BTW congrats WWW on your wedding and LHS move. Have you started smelling of wee yet?

[Headinclouds]

I Have to Agree totally with Scroggs. It was nt long ago, maybe three or Four years when most pilots were looking over their shoulders, worrying about their Jobs.

Now we have situations where the FTO's are marketing these high profiled Courses, (with Nice Profit Margins to keep those accountants happy), and seem to promise the world. A lot of their Students do well, and nowadays end up in the RHS of a Variety of Airlines from Small Regionals to Loco's to Legacys. But Not All.

So Essentially the FTO's, now sell their Branded Intergated/Modular Courses to the Targeted Audiences. Integrated Students in some FTos will quite openly assume they have a better chance of employment. 1-0 to the Marketeers.

Esentially, while integrated might be percieved as an easy 'skip the queue' tactic, Nailing the First Job is down to a bit of Luck and some Good Timing, also helps if you can perform in the Sim Test/Interview. Having Contacts will also assist, and combination of any of these factors could easily get the Job, and then would it matter if your were Intergrated or Modular?

[no sponsor]

I would like to point out that all schools, approved by the UK CAA have to keep training records, regardless of integrated or modular - even distance learning ATPLs requires progress tests that must be completed and marks are all held by the school you attend. You cannot apply for your ATPL exams unless you have completed all required progress tests.

If I wanted to, I could collate every single test, flying lesson report, instructors grading and examination result to build my own picture of my journey from zero to hero.

But as a qualified modular guy, the grass looks greener in Oxford, Cranfield and Jerez....

It's bloody tough getting a break into the industry.

[scroggs]

This month's 'Log' - the house magazine of BALPA - has some very interesting things to say about the training and recruiting situation in UK. For those of you who are not members, I would commend you to consider joining. As unemployed pilots under training, it is extremely cheap.

Scroggs

[supercruise593]

Scroggs,

BA has been knocking on CTC's door & cadets are going through their selection process.

Everyone,

There's been some interesting analysis of this subject but ultimately, I'd say that:

1) Chance of Placement with an airline.
2) Ability to finance training.

.. are the KEY priorities for someone (who hasn't already accumulated a significant amount of experience) looking to undergo training for a 'jet' job.

I think the issue of 'Modular' v 'Integrated' is a variable which is related to the above points yet is subordinate to them.

593...

[monkeytribe]

What does it say in this month's BALPA Log magazine then Scroggs about training?

I'm not a member (yet) and by the time I become one that copy will be in the recycling plant!

Cheers

[scroggs]

Quite a lot. I don't have the time to attempt to reproduce it here, and I imagine it's covered by copyright so please no-one else do so without the permission of the publisher.

There are articles entitled, "Pilot Labour Supply - should BALPA be involved?"; "University Degrees - a step to airline management"; "BALPA Career Services Re-launch"; and "Professional Pilot Training - what is the future?", as well as information articles about Jump Pilot flying and Simulator Training Services Ltd (BAC 111 sim operators).

Back issues are no doubt available to new members.

Scroggs

[ramshorn]

Hi everyone!

I'm trying to raise the last bit of funding to finish my flight training.
So far i have got FAA PPL,SE/IR,JAR CPL,MEP and have about 210 hours.
Up to this point i reckon my training bill not including living costs but inclusive of flights to/from USA, visas, ATPL theoretical course,ground/flight exam fees amounts to approximately £32,000.:eek:!
I now need to convince a potential creditor that this is quite standard to be paying out this kind of money when undertaking self sponsored flight training, and try to borrow £14,000 to do my FAA IR conversion,MCC and FI,
bringing my total bill to a whopping £46,000 :{
I'd be very interested to get some ideas on the amounts of hard earned/borrowed money you have all parted with to follow your dreams!!?? :ok:
Thanks
Ramshorn ;)

[raviolis]

Hi guys

just a quick one to ask some comments on this.
long story short : having blown the opportunity of a sponsorship, and not given up on the idea of flying "professionally" (to be honset failing the sponsorship actually made me want more) I am here looking at possibilities, like many of us do anyway. So, to cut the crap short :

Not being able to afford a cadet programme, or a full training package (say the likes of Oxford's APP) I have no choice but to look at modular.
Now, being 26 going for 27, the questions are :

- Working my way up through the training and perhaps coming to the real world with a frozen ATPL at the age of 31-32 : would you consider that too "old" ?

- Do you think they (Airlines) look down on modular students as opposed to cadets or sponsored ones ? I wouldn't think so, a modular student probably worked his butt off by working hard to finance his training and it's a lot more motivated than someone who had all paid upfront by daddy. But what would you say ?

- Not being in a cadet programme, you would have to build up your hours after PPL (up to 150 I believe ?) by yourself. How difficult is that ? Does it mean 150 hours after your PPL, or including PPL (therefore PPL + 105 hrs)

[A320rider]

people can answer you with lot of bla bla...

what about if you win the EU lottery in 2 days,
what about if ben laden blow up all petrol reserves in this world?

would you go modular?
nobody can really answer for you, but for me, forget aviation and have a good life with a nice girl...or go the cheapest way if you want really fly.Each time a pilot is unemployed, it is the society(us) who has to pay!

[Send Clowns]

Ignore A320. He has found it difficult to get a job, but as you can see he has a poor attitude, that he has always displayed here, so it is hardly surprising. On the rare occasions he has asked for help here, rather than his whinges under various names, he has ignored attempts to help. You get a job by personality in this business, because the people selecting you know they might have to work closely with you!

Why should you finish aged 31-32? Can you not complete a modular package in a year or two? I was about the same age as you are when I started in 2000. I hit the problems of late 2001 having finished that summer, so only recently started my first "proper" flying job, aged 32, but there is no reason you should not get there much more quickly with a much more buoyant market.

Some airlines have an official policy of taking only integrated students for low hour intake. These however take very few low-hour at all, nearly all have strict age restrictions and some actually to take modular students anyway. There are other flying jobs around that are harder to get if you take an integrated course.

150 hours includes the PPL, so about 100 hours to build. Not difficult at all, can be great fun. Most important thing is to use it to improve your flying, not jsut "burn holes in the sky". If you can afford to fly it in the UK, flying with an instuctor about every 10 hours just to make sure you are keeping up your skills, so your CPL goes smoothly! There are ways of making it really cheap. I would suggest you look at buying a share in an aircraft. You can fly for about £50 an hour, then sell the share on (perhaps to another hour builder!). Fly to the channel islands or abroad to pick up duty draw back on fuel (assuing your flying a petrol, not a diesel aircrat). Get your friends to share the cost as you give them a flight much more cheaply than they could find otherwise. Use flights as presents you would have to buy anyway (great wedding presents - you are at the age your mates will be pairing off rapodly soon! Mine are just having kids and divorcing, a process more expensive than learning to fly!). Set yourself a challenge, maybe with a friend (another hour builder?) to go somewhere, the far end of the UK or across Europe.

Enjoy!

[winch launch]

Hey,

If you are really motivated, have self discipline, and the right attitude, there are no reasons why you won't be able to find a job.
I am modular myself. When I started flying, I didn't know anyone in aviation so I thought the only way for me to achieve my dreams is to work very hard. So that’s what I did, and even during my hours building I tried to be as rigorous as I could to improve my flying skills. An instructor appreciated my hard work and recommended me to a para-dropping centre. I only had a PPL and 200+ hours. During my theoretical ATPL, CPL and IR, I was going almost every week end to a parachute club 4 hours away from my FTO. Sometimes I had to drive 4 hours after 6 hours of flying. I continued hard working and networking. Found a job on a small turbine aircraft, just by sending a CV, while I was still training on my instrument rating. I started the rating on the day after my IR test. And now I am building up turbine time. As I am getting more experience, I am realising that I am interesting more and more employers. Today I got a call from a guy asking me if I wanted to do a bit of air taxi. That’s more hours, and IFR experience. I am slowly getting closer to the experience necessary to interest a company operating king airs where friends could recommend me.
So you see, my point behind all this is that I started with no connections and not a lot of money. Through hard work and networking, I am slowly climbing the ladder, and I intend to make sure that nothing will stop me from reaching my oldest dream which is to fly the 747.
Some pilot's strategy to find a job is to try and convince wannabes to quit, to blame the entire world and to buy type ratings and say that he/she did that because he is a victim of the system. Many pilots don’t find jobs because they spend all their time sitting around doing nothing (Or complaining on Pprune)
My strategy was to move my bottom, and I hope to have 1000 hours before the end of the year.
And the good news behind all this is: I am not the only one for whom it works. I sometimes have phone calls from friends proposing me to take their jobs because they found a better one.
When someone helps me, I make sure that I can help him in return to thank him. Maybe one day, someone I helped will be a 747 recruiter :)
If you are a hard worker, you ll easily get respected, and if you get respected, you ll get help.
If you really want it, then just go for it.

Good Luck

Winch

[raviolis]

Clowns

the reason why I am looking at age 31-32 is because to finance training I will have to keep my job, and to keep my job I won't be able to take time off work for training all the time.... A bit of a vicious circle, but it's the only way for me, considering the costs of flying.
So I am being realistic and consider taking out maybe 5-6 grand a year for training... so if we are looking at 30k + for a modualr training, well there you have it.. 5-6 years !

correct ?

[edymonster]

Hi there

I thought i would post this up in this thread then start a new one. I am also looking at modular training and have looked at stapleford. Is there any other good modular schools around the London area?

And by the way i dont think anyone is to old to fly, especially early 30's. If you get all your licences you still have a good 20 years till retirement and thats a hell of alot. And my suggestion is about the training from what i have learnt just dont allow big breaks in your training. It will be better for you as you will spend less and I think it will make you a better pilot.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

I would recommend that you do the modules as close to back-to-back as possible. A lot of chief captains will be looking at that aspect of your training.

Also, no matter what people think, age DOES matter (I'm 35). The older you get, the more you are seen as a training risk. It's not a stereotype, it's a fact: the older you get, the slower you learn. It's just biology. So you are a lot more likely to have to pay for your type rating to get a jet job if you finish your training at 35 instead of late twenties.

Also, I would not recomment you keep you keep working outside the aviation industry during or after your training. Getting good school grades helps, but it's still mainly who you know, and not what you know, that will get you interviews (then at the interview it's a matter of what you know). If it's a flying job like para-dropping or aerial photography, great. But it can also be dispatcher, ops officer, navigation officer, etc. Great way to network your way to an interview.

P

[scroggs]

This thread has been split. You will find the 'flying celebrity' off-topic stuff in 'Jet Blast'.

Scroggs

[welliewanger]

Hi everyone!
:{My brain is frazzled. I want to know if paying the extra money for an integrated course is really worth it. The difference is about £20k. So I was wondering which sort of course people have been on and how long it took to get a job afterwards. Obviously, if paying the extra money means I'm more likely to get a job, then it must be worth it.

Thanks in advance!

[scroggs]

Now your post is in the merged 'Integrated vs. Modular' thread, you can save yourself the bother of doing a search (it's so tiresome) and read the debates that went before you all in one place. Isn't that nice!

When you've finished reading the thread (ooh, about next Wednesday), let us know if you're any wiser!

Scroggs

[Wazzoo]

*sigh*
Do we have to pander to people who don't know how to use the search button and merge so many threads? I know the thinking behind the merging threads, but to lump so many together and so far back...?

Not only is it a pain to wade through and work out what you've seen before and what you haven't, but not all of the threads are on the same topics. Yeah they are all related to Cabair or integrated vs modular or whatevers been merged, but there are differences in the questions asked. Often a threads question is influenced by the situation the person asking it is in and the answers are directly relevant to that person. When they're all lumped together its nigh on impossible to make head or tail of whos asking what and what they are replying too. So when I'm looking for someone who's asked a similar question and is in a similar situation any nuances or little tidbits are lost in a sea of back and forths.

I do sympathise Scroggs, I know questions get repeated that are very similar and its a frustration when people come on without reading any of the stickys and post the first thing thats on their mind without any research but does everything have to be dummed down for their sake? Stretch this analogy along and we'll end up with just five threads that are hundreds of pages long (The usuals..OAT, Int vs Mod, Sponsorship..etc Having said that, all of those should really go in Interviews, jobs & sponsorships freeing this one up for actual training related questions) and it really will take a week to get through one of them and find that piece of info you're looking for!

Merging threads isn't the end of the world I know. Some threads do need merging, if they crop up at the same time and on similar subjects then by all means prune things a bit (pun not intended). But does it have to be done to this extent?

[welliewanger]

Well, I went to Flyer magazine's show at Heath Row on Saturday (Got up at 5 am to get there!) There was a seminar specifically aimed at people who wanted to become commercial pilots. At the front were 5(?) pilot recruiters from major airlines, a guy from GAPAN and one from BALPA. I asked them what their thoughts were on modular V's integrated with regards to getting a first job.

They all said that at the moment they would only accept low hours (200 - 500) pilots from integrated schools. There were a couple which said that sometimes they would accept low hour modular pilots and most of them said that in the past they had accepted low hour modular.

Their reasoning for this is that although both routes provided the same qualifications, they know exactly what goes on in integrated schools, particularly "recognized" ones. Students are disciplined in their training every day and learn not only about how to fly, but about the aviation business and what it's like to work for an airline.

Whether these people's opinions are right or wrong. I am going to pay the extra and go integrated (if Jerez will have me!) simply because the people who I will be sending CV's to in a year or so have told me that they prefer integrated students.

[Wazzoo]

Any idea which airlines they were from? At the exhibition back in Nov it was only BA saying definately only integrated and the others (FlyBe etc) were taking both.

[welliewanger]

BA, flybe and Thompsonfly were all there. I think that they were "only integrated" for low hours pilots. But I can't rememeber for sure which ones were. What I am sure of is that of all the airlines that were there, they all seemed to prefer integrated.

[Send Clowns]

Well I know that Thompsonfly and FlyBe have fairly recently taken on or interviewed modular graduates on an equal basis to integrated graduates. I know some of the people concerned!

[bjkeates]

Just a quick correction... the correct spelling is Thomsonfly (no 'p').

(Sorry, one of my pet hates...) :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

We are now certainly back to the position regards demand for pilots that we enjoyed in the 1999/2000 period. I therefore think its worth paying the premium for Integrated training IF you can afford it without undue hardship.

The reason for my change of opinion is that now, once again, the big three FTOs are getting regular calls from airlines asking them to draw up a quick list of upcoming graduates for them to interview. If you bought the CFI a beer at the Christmas party and kept your nose clean it really can be a direct route straight to a flightdeck.

Similarly if you can get onto a CTC scheme then you've no worries about getting a job at the end of it.

But be quick - the good times have a habit of stopping more suddenly than you would like.

Cheers

WWW

[Mr Ted Stricker]

These integrated vs. modular threads are very interesting but cannot really be answered as nobody has done both therefore can't compare.

However, take it from someone on an integrated course, unless you have the money burning a hole in your pocket go modular.

[Grass strip basher]

Interesting comment Mr Stricker.... care to elaborate as to wht you feel that way?

Normally integrated students fight tooth and nail to justify why they have spent the extra money...

[Aerospace101]

re Flyer Exhibition, this is what was said on sat

BA - only integrated
Flybe - both
Thomsonfly -both
MyTravel -both

However ALL said there were definate positives for the Integrated route reasons being, team environment, self discipline (uniforms...), training under one roof, school references

Comments on the modular route were that, you should aim to do your modular training with 1 FTO, on a managed scheme, rather than self managed (prob explains why oat and cabair now have 'waypoint' and 'pathfinder' mod courses)

One of the key points from the whole talk was PERSONALITY. at the end of the day everyone has the same licence. Airlines are here to employ a human being, therefore the most important factor is YOU AS A PERSON. (they referred to it as being locked in a telephone booth with another person for 7 hours at a time- they dont want arrogance or friction in the cockpit)

[slayer]

Whether these people's opinions are right or wrong. I am going to pay the extra and go integrated (if Jerez will have me!) simply because the people who I will be sending CV's to in a year or so have told me that they prefer integrated students.
Aggggghhhhhh! I can’t believe I’m being drawn into this thread!
Hmmmm, those four airlines that you’ve committed on are not the only airlines in the world you know! :cool:
Personally I think that anyone undergoing or considering undergoing pilot training should really have to have a passion for it and be prepared to fly practically anything for anyone!
Sorry Willewanger I don’t mean to pick on you but your post doesn’t exactly scream that message out. It sounds like you’re only interested in flying for the airlines. I guess if you’re paying top dollar for the integrated training you’re going to need the salary of an airline pilot! The only problem there though is that it probably wouldn’t be enough (if you’re borrowing the money of course).
I think you need to slow down a bit in your decision making, by the sounds if it, those recruiters have managed to persuade you to spend an extra 20-30K (don’t quote me on the cost difference) simply because they ‘prefer’ integrated students at this moment in time. I don’t know from experience but I’d imagine that what they prefer and what they actually take are two different things! I mean, they’d also prefer you to have a type rating and 500hrs on type but they don’t get it! Just imagine how you’d feel if in six months time they said they didn’t care if you were integrated? You’d have spent the extra 20-30K for no reason.
I think people lose sight of the true value of money, its REAL money you’re spending! Just think how long it would take to pay that back, and afford to live at the same time! Think about what the practical implications of paying that amount back would be.
I don’t know how people sleep at night with 60-70K hanging round their neck! It would certainly scare the crap out of me! I know this has all been said before but what the heck!
Rant over! :E

[Gazeem]

Although BA say only integrated, once you have 500 multicrew they don't care where you come from.

This remains as ever if you have the money and or freedom do integrated,
if you need to work to keep down cost do modular,

try as hard as you can, and try to keep everyone on side,

you never know who you are talking too in this small world!

[Pink_Lady]

Hi

Hmmm what a debate, my thoughts on the subject (the same as my thoughts on life) if your going to do it, do it properly!!! thus meaning im intergrated though and though baby, but hey each to there own.

Its like a private school and your bog standard common comprehensive, but hey, each to there own!!!:ok:

Its like a Pink Lady and Granny Smith, Who goes for grannies when you can have a MILF.:} :ok:

At the end of the day each to there own, grannies mite be your thing!!!:p

Pink

[mcgoo]

Hi Pink_Lady, welcome to pprune,

I totally agree with your quote "If your going to do things, do them properly",
even spelling and grammar!

love

Mcgoo

ex bog standard comprehensive student
current modular student and full-time worker

[slayer]

Its like a private school and your bog standard common comprehensive, but hey, each to there own!!!
The majority of privately educated people I’ve come across tend to have very poor interpersonal skills and absolutely no grasp of real life what so ever………..Hmmmm sounds familiar!:}
Sorry, just couldn't resist!

[welliewanger]

hello slayer...
well, it looks like we're really going to have a heated debate now!:)
I went to private school and am glad that I did. but I'm not going to be drawn into that debate, we'll need another thread for that!

Fortunately my career in IT has meant that I am able to pay cash for the integrated course. I do have "a passion for flying" in fact it's all I've ever wanted to do since I was about 5. *but* I also have a passion for money (oo-er! someone who's greedy! aren't I bad!) I love flying, but I don't want to live the life of a pauper.

It's apparent to me that integrated students are more likely to get a "jet job" as their first job than modular. Often, modular students get other jobs (e.g. instructing or air taxi) before going on to work for airlines. This effectively puts their career progression back by a year (ish). I've just thrown together a possible profit and loss account for an integrated student and a modular student. It assumes that within 18 months of starting, both get jobs, the integrated student gets an airline job (pay scale similar to the one on easyjet's website) The modular student gets a lower paid pilot job for the first year to get the 500 hours he needs to get into an airline. By the end of the 6th year of employment, they are both captains earning £66k, but the integrated student is £31k better off with more jet time.

True, the integrated student might not get a job at all and the modular student might go straight into the right had seat of a jet. But this is less likely.

OK, time to put the fire-proof jacket on and hide!

[Grass strip basher]

Wellie wanger did you factor into your spreadsheet the "opportunity cost" of giving up work for a full year and a half to do an integrated course?

Going the modular route you can stay in employment for the entire course which means you never have a day not earning.... in earnings terms that can for many people be equivalent to the entire cost of the course.

Each route suits different people but you seem to be imlpying that going down the integrated route is a lower risk from a financial viewpoint.... that smells badly of falling for the very effective marketing machines of one or two of the integrated schools hook line and sinker...

[captwannabe]

The integrated versus modular debate cannot be simplified. At the end of the day, you have to make the decision for yourself. But ask yourself:


1. Can you afford integrated (time and money)?

2. Do you only want to fly a computerised jet when qualified?

3. Would you mature more by doing an integrated or modular course? (For those who just finished school)

4. Would you enjoy training abroad for a foreign licence?


Nobody but yourself can make this decision for you!

[welliewanger]

Hi grass strip basher,
No, I didn't factor in the cost of giving up work. Whichever route I take I'm going to do full time, so the timing is equal. I have heard that it is possible to do modular in a year and work at the same time. But I'm told that that is seriously hard work and takes mega-discipline! I'm told that it generally takes much longer.

Maybe I am falling for the marketing talk of the integrated schools, but I've spoken with the cheif pilots from three major UK airlines (not just at the show the other week) and they have told me that they prefer integrated candidates.

[slayer]

Hello Welliewanger! Got your jacket on?......Only joking!:)
First off your right lets not get drawn into the Private Schooling debate, I’d be here all night! Unfortunately I seem to have met more than one or two who are extremely arrogant and quite a long way up their own bottoms! However you don’t appear to be one of them!
Your profit loss Idea is interesting and if all the assumptions that you’ve made fall into place then you’re probably not far of the mark. However, I still strongly feel that going the integrated route is a much greater risk (financially).
My previous post was aimed at people who seem to think its ok to go around borrowing 60K+, in your fortunate situation that’s obviously not a problem, but I have to say, if I had 60-70K in my bank account I’m still not sure if I’d go the integrated route! I’d personally rather keep the extra cash as security for other things…. I mean, it would be nice to be able to buy a house one day. If you go integrated and things go tits up, you’re stuck with a mega loan to pay off which will put you well and truly in the Sh#t.
Also, at the end of the day no matter how much money you chuck at it, it’s your personality and aptitude for flying that’s going to get you a job and I strongly believe that if you’ve got that then your eventually come good.
Anyway, this discussion will be going on long after you and me have our licences and like others have said, it’s all down to personal circumstances so I think I’ll stop wasting my time!

[SPANISHPILOT]

I can find many pros and cons on both an ATPL course and a MATPL course but do you think an airline will value more a pilot with an ATPL course?
Maybe it is not the first time this thread has been dealt in this forum but i haven't found anything about this

[Flopsie]

What's an MATPL??

[Joseph Paris]

I guess he is talking about Modular versus integrated ATPL course...

[Wazzoo]

Or the MPL? But thats not been introduced quite yet..?

[SPANISHPILOT]

I guess he is talking about Modular versus integrated ATPL course...

It's afirm sir.That was what I mean.But I wanted to know exactly if an airline would prefer a pilot who has done an integrated course rather than a modular course.For me, it isn't important but will they mind?

[F3]

I imagine the poor old server just didn't know where to begin when you tried to search. :)
Try 'integrated v modular' and make sure you have a very large mug of coffee to hand.

[Joseph Paris]

Spanishpilot,
This subject has been discussed thoroughly...indeed search machines can hardly cope with this subject...as our friend mentioned above.
If you want my opinion airlines are looking for skills, professionalism and motivation whatever the training method. 95% or so of current airline pilots are modular simply because very little have 100000 euros to spent at once...while training on a full time basis...and without a secured job as First Officer anywhere. However if you are looking for a career as an airline pilot as soon as possible and money is not a problem then go for a reputable integrated course! Through an integrated course usually you get the minimum required training for an ATPL frozen in a short period of time but in a well structured airline orientated way...Airlines tend to like intergrated courses basically because modular training over a long period of time is associated with a big risk of accumulating all sorts of bad habits...in the way you act as a pilot I mean...

Whatever you choose...buena suerte!

[bakoo]

Hey, i have been looking at BCUC University and they have paired up with Cabair, Cabair does all the training , etc. But you study at University Airline Management and some of the ATPL theory. Well i would say this was Modular but some i have talked to say its integrated, what is it and if its not integrated will this hold me back in anyway?

http://www.bcuc.ac.uk

[Whirlygig]

I would say it's modular (structured modular) as it quite clearly state that you will get your PPL first and secondly, I don't think Buckingham Uni has the requierd authorisation from CAA to run an integrated course even if it is through Cabair.

I would not have thought modular vs integrated makes a jot of difference but that is a long running argment!

Cheers

Whirls

[potkettleblack]

When in doubt check the CAA website for a list of FTO's. There are only a few integrated schools - cabair, FTE, Oxford etc. Its also a good thing to do if you are unsure of a school (particularly those overseas) and want to ensure that it has JAA approval.

[Keith.Williams.]

It is a structured modular course.

From September this year CABAIR will offer two different combined JAR ATPL(A) / Degree courses.

The first is through Buckinghamshire Chilterns University, with the ATPL groundshool being done either at Cranfield or at Bournemouth.

The second is through Kingston University, with the groundschool being done at Bournemouth.

[bakoo]

Thanks for the replys, What are the downsides to Modular though? Am i going to find it harder to get a job doing a Modular course at Uni or going the integrated route?

[Groundloop]

"From September this year CABAIR will offer two different combined JAR ATPL(A) / Degree courses."

Actually it's 3, Cabair have been a training provider for City University's BSc (Hons) in Air Transport Operations for a good number of years now.

[Craggenmore]

How much does this University course cost? Surely it can't be free (like mine was those years ago!)

[bakoo]

No Uni is free no more, the LEA used to pay for it but now they lend you the money, its £3500 for year one and i think it increases each year but they havn't said how much by. I would much rather get right into it and go on an integrated course, but what one and is it the right thing?

[potkettleblack]

Don't be overly seduced by these specialist airline degrees. Yes I can see the merits of getting your ATPL's whilst combining it with a degree but don't lose sight of the fact that these are relatively new types of qualifications. Think about what sort of position this qualification will get you in an airline (if that is your aim). Clearly it won't get you in as an accountant or lawyer. Management cadet? Well maybe but you might well be up against people with economics or specialist management degrees from the more mainstream universities such as Oxbridge, Bath Bristol etc. I would question how highly these degrees are held by the airlines.

Ask the universities themselves for details of where the past students are now and try to find some forums and post questions and see what comes up.

If the sole aim is to get the ATPL's out of the way and go modular then you might consider doing a professional degree at a recognised university, earning a decent crust when you graduate and studying the ATPL ground school exams along the way. That way you have a career (and income stream) to fall back on when you are fully qualified on the flying side and looking for work.

The ATPL's are one of the cheaper parts of the overall flying course per se so don't do an entire degree just to save a few thousand quid.

[Groundloop]

"at a recognised university" !!

Does this mean that the Universities mentioned above are not recognised as such?

BTW, the course at City offers the choice of Integrated or Modular ATPL training within it.

Also City was the first institution in the UK to teach aeronautics (1909) so they know a thing or two about the subject!

[potkettleblack]

Groundloop I think you missed my point in your defence of this university. So you come out with a full or modular ATPL then what? What are you qualified to do in the time that it takes to secure that first job? Whether they are good or not at teaching aeronautics doesn't really matter. I happen to think that the ex RAF navigator who is teaching me POF by distance learning is quite good too but in the context of the 14 ATPL's who really cares.

My point was if you went to a recognised University and did something that earns you a fair salary then you are in a much better position than to get your frozen ATPL and have studied the intricacies of how load factors and the Galileo reservation system work. Instead you could have a profession behind you (law, engineering, accounting, corporate finance etc) and within a few years of graduating be easily earning 30-40k or more a year which will also give you more to talk about at a job interview and doubtless make paying for the ATPL's less of a worry. It also means you have something to fall back on should the need arise.

The problem with generic degrees is that the graduate doesn't have a specialism as such.

Edit: I have just seen your profile Groundloop, all has been revealed.

[Groundloop]

"The problem with generic degrees is that the graduate doesn't have a specialism as such."

What do you mean by generic? Have you actually looked at the content of the courses you are deriding?

Okay, so you now know who I am. The content of our course was agreed after a series of Steering Committee meetings which included representatives from GAPAN, the CAA, British Airways and the FTOs. We didn't just dream it up - we were actually asked to create the degree.

Oh, and 85% of our graduates are working as pilots.

[Lucifer]

I think that potkettleblack means something different from that implied by the "generic degree" label than that which you are assuming groundloop.

I think that he is driving as an analogy with say a journalism degree - which, although very interesting and completely valid academically - will not enable one to obtain a job as a journalist in many places (e.g. the Economist will not employ a journalism graduate, but instead someone with a politics, science, language degree etc with an interest in journalism).

Returning to the main point, what is valid academic study may or may not be useful in the end result of getting a job.

I could not comment in this case, however if desgined in consultation with employers then it would not appear to fit the generic degree description.

Groundloop - you could perhaps clarify however whether - specifically - the degree was created following BA asking for such a product, or vica versa and the steering committee approched relevant people for their opinion after the idea of the creation of the course had been considered at the university? You are ambiguous in the following:

The content of our course was agreed after a series of Steering Committee meetings which included representatives from GAPAN, the CAA, British Airways and the FTOs. We didn't just dream it up - we were actually asked to create the degree.
Clarification of which approach from whom came first may help applicants to decide whether it would be more favourably viewed than a straight-up fAPTL in the eyes of that employer mentioned.

[Whirlygig]

May I draw a personal analogy here.

I have a degree in Physics and worked in research for a year before I left to become a Chartered Accountant. The accountancy firm for whom I worked (one of the Top 4 now) specifically did not want people with Accountancy degrees.

The reasons were two-fold. Firstly, those with the Accountancy degrees had a fair amount of theoretical (very theoretical!!) knowledge which was of little use in the workplace and also had pre-conceived ideas of how things should be done without having the practical experience of being in the workplace.

Secondly, they preferred to ahve graduate recruits who knew something else other than figures - it might indicate that they have some outside interests, a life and, more importantly could bring some specialist knowledge to the firm. In my case, I was always sent on the stocktakes for any scientific/electronics companies as I knew a transistor from a capacitor.

So, I think potkettleblack has some valid points and my personal experience, although not in the field of aviation in this contaxt, might bear that out.

As a helicopter pilot studying for CPL, things are very different anyway!

Cheers

Whirls

[cyberdog]

I was just wondering if anyone could inform me as to what are the realistic chances of someone who has not gone down the integrated route but is doing dl and then training in America for example in getting a job with a fairly good airline. I have tried searching but have not really found any relevant info. many thanks.

[Tim_donovan]

Chances are good!

[FunFlyin]

Thats a fairly general question. Are you asking how many modular pilots go into jet employment after they finish? Or turbo-props?

You really need the same figures about integrated students to compare them.
And i know that although the integrated schools are always willing to post up their job success for students, they carefully gloss over how many students were on the course that 4 have just gone to ...... (insert airline here)

Putting the effort in wherever you studied puts you in a better chance of getting a job afterwards. Also without putting a downer on it. Just because a few people might be getting jet jobs at present dont get your hopes up. There is nothing wrong with Para dropping, small and large turbo props and instructing. They are all jobs ;)

[Tim_donovan]

Just because a few people might be getting jet jobs at present dont get your hopes up. There is nothing wrong with Para dropping, small and large turbo props and instructing. They are all jobs ;)

Good point well said FFF

[aviate2day]

Would loved to have done the para dropping. The instructing and TP's were great fun though. If you have the time and can service your training debts then enjoy yourself for a bit.

[Martin4]

What licence do you need to be able to para drop, im guesing CPL?

[YYZ]

you only need a PPL to para drop, you do need a reasonable amount of hours though for insurance reasons.

YYZ

[BitMoreRightRudder]

cyberdog

You have as a good a chance of getting an airline job having gone modular as you do of getting one off the back of an integrated course. This sort of question comes around every five minutes and we always get the same range of answers.

People who say you are much more likely getting that first job having gone integrated (there are some on this thread!) are either

a) On an integrated course, or
b) About to embark on one.

In either case they have a reason to want to believe that integrated is the way to go but there is no evidence to support such a claim. At the moment lots of people are recruiting and you will find that the stumbling block to getting your first job is the age old problem of a lack of experience, which neither a modular or integrated course can claim to help you with. At the end of the day you end up with the same blue book. It's what you do then, and the contacts you have made during training, thats affects your employment prospects.

Good Luck

[haughtney1]

Cyberdog.....

As one of those poor simple hillbilly cousins who flys jets for a living...I can tell you modular or intergrated makes no difference if your an idiot.

The tone of your question suggests you believe that if you train via the modular route..you will struggle to get a job, simply not true :ok: Your first job will ALWAYS be a struggle, accept it, get used to it, and get on with getting it!!

Bitmoreright is correct in their assertions..and has put them in a far more eloquent way.

X3k5...you are incorrect.....CTC a modular training organisation, nuff said:ok:

[Rob82]

Just to add to what everyone else has said i believe it makes no difference whether you train modular or integreated for the majority of airlines. One airline that i know does is BA who will only take integrated giving an excuse of "integrated training is similar to there type rating and line training"!!!!!! Although the chance of getting your first job with BA is comparable to winning the lottery.

Rob

[mcgoo]

and so it rolls on, again and again and zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[haughtney1]

Not "nuff said" at all. CTC is as good as integrated if you do know about it
Its a full time structured modular which also costs just as much as Integrated

:hmm: oh dear....have you read what you've typed?

Its as good as intergrated?...so that must mean its modular:oh:
By the way modular IS structured by definition...how else could the training be put into modules?

X3, judging by your previous posts you are quite likely incredibly nieve, or more likely you have little or no experience of this industry, either way your advice is as meaningless as it is inaccurate...mayby you should go back to practicing your PAN calls in a PA-28:ok:

One thing is for certain..you have coughed up £60k or so for an intergrated course...and now your trying to convince yourself that its going to get you a job.

[A320rider]

your chance to get a job after ANY basic training is close of 0%.
after your training, you will need a MCC and a type rating ONLY to apply.
then IF you are selected, you will be requested to pay for a second type rating.
it is not worth to start an aviation training if no employment guaranty BEFORE training.

IF you are not hired after 3-6 months, you minimise your chance to find a job
Paying for a type rating is NOT the solution as many airlines train their own pilots.

apply BEFORE forking your own money in this megascam runed by schools:{ .

forking 150'000$ or more in a training with a return of 5-15$/hour as a fi, or traffic watch pilot is probably the stupidest investment...

[tittybar]

A320Rider reliable as ever!:ugh:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

A320 I think you are good value round here and your posts balance out the rose tinted spectacles view but come on mate.........

your chance to get a job after ANY basic training is close of 0%.
after your training, you will need a MCC and a type rating ONLY to apply.
then IF you are selected, you will be requested to pay for a second type rating.

You now need a minimum of two type-ratings to get a job? Thats reaching the extremities of bulls:mad: it, even for you!

[FunFlyin]

BitMore

I think the dig he was having was at those who will go off and pay for their own type rating with no time on type etc.
Should they be lucky enough to go on and find a jet job even on the A/C they are rated on. Most airlines worth their salt will make the candidate complete the full type rating again with their sop's etc

2 type ratings :sad:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

A320 has a dig at anything to do with the training industry, and he paints an overly bleak picture. I'm sorry, but saying that you need to buy a type rating to get an interview and then buy another one once offered employment by an airline is palpable nonsense. Name me an airline that does this.

A320's cynicism has its place but he goes too far, and the problem is some people may read what he posts and actually believe him!:uhoh:

Just my thoughts on his input, take it as you will!

[haughtney1]

You certainly have no idea at all about the differences between modular and integrated.

Im still doing my AS levels so I havent coughed up anything.
But you definitely have gone for modular and are perhaps envious of integrated??

:}

Sorry X3 I fly 120 tonne jets for a living:ok:

Im merely trying to pass on a bit of advice from someone who has been involved in aviation/airlines/training on 3 continents for the past 15 years.....perhaps its time for you to go back to being a school boy, and leave the adults who know what they are talking about to discuss this:ok:

[mcgoo]

there are many structed modular courses, but only CTC is the one that can get you an airline job right after your training.

why are you under the illusion that it is the fto that gets you the job, it is up to the individual to get a job, an integrated student can pay his £30,000+ more for his course and still not get a job, a license is a license is a license but if you don't come across well at interview, it wont matter who recommends you.

[mcgoo]

This forum isnt for adults. Its for wannabes. If youve been in aviation for 15 years, you dont have any ideas about integrated because it didnt exist when you trained.
Oxford has been doing integrated training since 1964

[mcgoo]

eerrr and???

[mcgoo]

oh right, interesting, i'll pass that on to the people i know who were under the impression that they trained on an integrated course at oat some years back, thank you for enlightening them!

[mcgoo]

But they do take them from integrated courses.
but you still have to have an interview!, i suggest you read my post carefully

[mcgoo]

Please do, because before 3 years ago, Oxford didnt have the APP(integrated course).
Ask an Oxford employee if you wish to.

now your mistaking the APP course and the definition of integrated, integrated by definition means to bring together or to unify, in other words an integrated course is full time back to back training which oxford have been doing for years, the APP is the fancy title of a particular course which probably started 2-3 years ago

[mcgoo]

I have been to Oxford for a seminar.

then i bow down to your superior wisdom!

[haughtney1]

This forum isnt for adults. Its for wannabes. If youve been in aviation for 15 years, you dont have any ideas about integrated because it didnt exist when you trained.

If you honestly believe that last comment.....I suggest you need to rexamine if aviation is the career for you.
Yes, this forum is for adults..who are also wannabes, but it also here to benefit people in so much that people who have "been there & done that" can pass on what they know to receptive and knowledge hungry individuals.

X3..you should feel B****y lucky that there are people on here that take time out of their day to offer help and advice. If you cant accept that, then Id suggest you go elsewhere.

[FunFlyin]

X3

Give up buddy - you arent doing yourself any favours

The APP course at oxford is a recent addition. But go speak with Anthony or Nick etc at another seminar and they will tell you that they have been running integrated courses for as long as they can remember.

The APP course is (or was at the time) a new take on the integrated course aimed at bridging a gap they saw. It was not the first Integrated course

[getoffmycloud]

x3k5 whats your angle?? You are bearly out of short trousers and the more you post the more your demonstrate how little you know.

I suspect that you are not genuine and are a wind-up merchant. Anyone who thinks APP was the first integrated course "approved by the airlines" has to be clueless or very naive

Are you trying to pursuade daddy to cough up the £80-90k cost of an integrated school because you haven't ever had a job and have no idea how much money that is??

I find it quite unbelievable you can come on here and tell people who fly for a living, have been through the whole training washing machine and know what they are talking about because you have been to an APP sales pitch.... ha ha ha ha.... its hilarious.... or very very sad... I can't decide which.

[FunFlyin]

Female

There is no harm in doing it in a variety of places. (oo err)
But continuity of training is essential. And if you find a good school that you like it might well be worth considering staying there for most of your training.

Obviously groundschool is seperate. But different fto's will have different standards and procedures when it comes to flying. If you change schools how quickly you adjust will come out of your $$. If you dont need to change there is less to worry about

well it all made sense in my mind:ouch:

[tailwheel76]

I was modular and my first job was on jets. I think, from speaking to colleagues) the only difference with a fully integrated course is there is a chance, if you achieve good enough grades, you'll be recommended by the school if an airline phones them up asking if they've any good people through lately.

The quality of training mod or int is just as good if you pick your school well, and your CV will look the same, so you need to set yourself apart from the others, instruct, parachute drop, air taxi, air corps, volunteer air coprs instructor, scholarship winner (GAPAN/Airleague), achieve first time passes, high grades, degree, have a knighthood etc.

[mcgoo]

Yes its true, but APP is the first Oxford course which was made in co-ordination with the airlines, and thus my point to haughtney1 was that airlines like people from these courses because they helped build them

again, no it isn't, when sponsorship was around, a lot of airlines used OAT as there choice of school, as an integrated course

yet again, get your head out of the OAT brochure and listen to people who are in the job or know what they are talking about instead of trying to insult them, this is exactly the sort of attitude that will get you disliked, or if you think that getting daddy to shell out £80+ will set you up for life, think again, humility is a great quality

[AlexL]

For those of you interested in the bright lights and promises of an integrated course, just think about what you are doing for a moment. Can you afford it? If so fine. (by afford I mean have you, right now, got the cash, or the income to pay the loan).
If not then just reflect a moment that bringing forward potential future earnings (and very nebulous ones at that) to justify borrowing is illegal in the world of business, and was one of the actions that got Enron et al into so much trouble, so why do you think its OK in the world of private finance?
Can you really afford that 80k loan? or are you banking on whimisical willo-the-whisp promises of some future earnings that may never appear.
Don't get yourself into a life of misery and debt for something like this. Dispite what some people here and Oxfords marketing machine tell you, most modular training is as good, some is even better, than the integrated product. Many cheif pilots and recruiting officers don't care (its not even a question on many application forms). And many modular guys get jet jobs (I know quite a few from my school in the last few months).
About the only sensible thing X3 has said - is do your own research. And for those of you thinking of borrowing the money, or getting your parents to borrow it, just spend a few hours working out just how much money 60, 70 or 80k actually is

[mcgoo]

AlexL i feel you are wasting your time, some 18 yr olds are quite happy to bet there parents house on the off chance they get a job straight away for BA, i feel there is something to be be said about the type of person that would let their parents put forward their house as security on an off chance of a job, integrated or not, let alone the horrifc repayments of a loan of this size, it just goes to show the power of the OAT marketing machine whan a young lad doing AS levels can poo poo the reply of a guy who has worked in the industry for 15 years and tell him he knows nothing because he has attended an OAT seminar, it beggars belief!

[Grass strip basher]

The phrase "wind your neck in" has never seemed more appropriate...:rolleyes:

Aside from the little blue book wouldn't you think that one of the most important aspects to getting that first job is your own personality?? If you come across as arrogant it probably won't matter if you have gone down the integrated or modular route. Maybe displaying sufficient humility so that the likes of Haughtney will be prepared to sit next to you in a cramped cockpit for hours at a time and enjoy your company might factor somewhere along the line?

X3 since you first posted on this forum you have done little but knock peoples noses out of joint. I think some of the points you make are fair but the delivery leaves a lot to be desired. Shocking though this may sound there are people that know more than your about Oxford's APP than you (although I don't pretend to be one of them).

If you think you can earn enough money "before and during" university to pay even a fraction of the cost of an integrated course (without your parents helping out) then you are in for a shock when you leave school.... 99% of people come out of university in debt.... however you will come out with thousands of pounds in your pocket!?! And you acuse everyone else of being naive. If your parents are prepared to support you financially through this then that is a wonderful thing and that does open up the integrated route for you which is a great way to train. But please do yourself a favour and show a little respect to others and they will then no doubt reciprocate.

Anyway can we get back to the topic.... perhaps those who have undergone modular training or are involved in recuriting into the industry are better positioned to comment that those still at school.... :ok:

From what I have seen the ATP scheme offered by CTC for modular students seems like one of the most effective ways to get employed... although I am not sure how many people go through this route each year.... could anyone who has been through this scheme recently care to share some numbers??

[scroggs]

X3k5 I suggest you be quiet before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have. Attending one seminar, and misunderstanding much of what you were told, is no basis on which to construct an entire philosphy.

You really have no idea of what you speak. Do a little bit of genuine research into the history and derivation of the integrated course. Look into the CAP509 course and see the relationship between the two. Make no assumptions about 'what airlines want' that are not backed up by your own experience.

Above all, be quiet and listen to those who know a great deal more than you, and do not base all your arguments on the sales pitch of one company.

Scroggs

[High Wing Drifter]

From what I have seen the ATP scheme offered by CTC for modular students seems like one of the most effective ways to get employed
Not been reading the previous umpteen pages, but GSB has annunciated the real issue:-

To all practical purposes, CTC stylee structured modular and OAT integrated achieve exactly the same thing, albeit with slightly different flying training requirements, and my assumption is that that is an e2e consistent single supplier, aptitude tested, adequately trained and examined student complete with a full paper train showing strengths and weaknesses. So has this anything to do with integrated really or everything to do with the recruitment service offered to both the student and to the employer? I suggest not. Perhaps we should categorise such structured, single supplier schemes as "Acadamy Flight Schools" or something, just so we don't get hung up on the "I" word.

If I am honest, if I were an Airline Chief Pilot, I would be somewhat motivated to find the best pilot for the least effort and risk. Could a pilot who has done a bit here and bit there really fulfil that requirement as well as a students history that is documented e2e by a single establishment?

With that in mind, I suspect the Oxford modular course fulfils that requirement 100%. What I do doubt for all but a few 'straight A' students is the quasi employment agency service.

[microfilter]

We were taught the complex subject of gyroscopes at Oxford with a baked bean tin lid and a pencil. I'm not sure if any other teaching organisation will be able to stretch their budget to those limits.

[microfilter]

Oh, and X3- don't get sold by the brochure- I've been there- there is no 'state of the art' equipment- and some of the instructors don't like to use it. Instructing ranges from the completely disinterested to average, although there are a few exceptional cases- 'what you need to know' RIP- he knows who he is. My advice- and that's all it is- is save your cash and go distance with Alex or somewhere else- Bristol feedback is all you need.... unless your ma and pa are paying for it then who cares...lol

[sicky]

Hey all,

I've been having a good think through all the opportunities that I have available. I know this subject may have been mentioned previously but i thought that this was slightly separate.

I was just wondering really...if i can explain this correctly...How many people out there would go down the modular route, if the modular schools could come to agreements with airlines, like the integrated schools do. This biggest thing stopping me doing the modular route is the fact that it comes across as you just get the licence and you're on your own.

Don't get me wrong, i know nothing will be handed to me on a plate, and i don't expect it to be, not at all.

It's just that there seems to be a lot more uncertainty with regards to actual opportunities within the modular route than the integrated route.

I know not everybody on an integrated course will get an interview etc etc but it seems like the airlines will just pick from there, then stick up an ad for low hour guys when they need to fill a few more spaces.

So far what iv said has been covered so many times, but i'm struggling to get my point across. Hopefully sombody will see what i mean

[Wazzoo]

I hear you sicky. I've been thinking the same and pretty much come to the same conclusions.

The truth is there is a discrepancy between the prices for modular compared to integrated for what esentially, no, actually is the same license. Anyone should look at those numbers and wonder why even consider integrated training at such a cost.

But at the end of the day its the employment opportunities afterwards that dictates things the most for people. In many peoples minds, whether you're £35K in debt or £75K in debt pales into insignificance if you don't land a reasonable paying job soon after training.

There is the element, as you say, that once you've got the license via the modular route then you're on your own usually (noting of course that many people have had similar experiences with integrated schools). And then you have the perception - whether or not its right - from (largely jet) airlines, that says integrated training is the only way.

All of which conspires to make what should be a very attractive course/route to look less desirable and seem more risky.

And while I would love to go down the modular route, and I still may do, the possiblity that it might lead to less job opportunities and more risk means I find myself erring towards an integrated course.

Its something I've definitely pondered over a lot and will probably keep wondering about it for a while to come I guess!

Usual disclaimer: That's a very general view, there are of course a number who won't fit with that. Not everyone has the choice of getting a big enough loan to cover an integrated course, not everyone wants to jump into a jet first thing, others may simply disagree on the principle that the system has produced such a lopsided situation and not wish to conform to it.

[tailwheel76]

Theres no more risk in doing it modular than there is integrated. I was mod and my first job was jets. Whethere I was lucky, timed it right, struck a chord with my cv/application I dont know but it worked.

Integrated may well give you a contact, but chances are they'll only help for 6 mnths or a year, as I understand from friends who went integrated. Even then its up to YOU to get through the interviews and selection processes.

In my humble opinion the most important thing is to go to a school(s) that you feel comfortable and will get good marks in exams and first time passes, then shout about it on your CV. From speaking to a recruiter in my airline theres no hard fast way "...if a CV looks right then they'll get an interview...".

Integrated or modular with low average and 2nd time passes and no other interests may get passed over. Integrated or modualar with high average marks and first time passes, volunteering with the local Ar training corps, travel a good education etc will give you a better chance.

Train where you feel comfortable, and enjoy it.

[Tim_Q]

Sicky,
I went modular and landed a jet job eventually. One thing I noticed though is I was looked over by certain airlines time and again (even with high ranking inside contacts in some cases) whilst a steady stream of integrated students picked up interviews.
I think an intergrated course DOES give you the edge when it comes to employment but it's up to you whether it's worth the cost. I just couldn't justify it or afford it! To be honest I'm amazed how many people can raise this amount of money.
Good luck to all of you, persistence is the key.
Tim

[Felix Saddler]

Im now at that stage where im begining to decide which route to take and im soooo stuck!!!:rolleyes: I think 60k is far too much money but at the same time modular will build up ridiculosy high too considering the hidden costs, given the choice i would go integrated but its just the money factor and the only reason i would go integrated is its short and you are considered more for employment which is the most important thing.

[boogie-nicey]

If other people have taken the modular route and subsequently got jobs then why can't you. Yes Integrated gives you the 'extra bonus' points but at what expense. That degree of expense is for some people a gamble not a cost, look at your personal circumstances ... realistically.

Modular students can probably afford to wait a little longer for a job and then once employed quickly pay off the debt. How many years will it take once you have a job to pay the integrated £60-100K off? Don't throw your life away just because some FTO says so.

Sure, listen to the sales pitch and visit the schools but also ask yourself why can't I devise a plan for myself too? Of course you can plan your post training, when, where and how much, etc......

There's a good reason why banks don't lend money out to wannabes for these course prices .....

[Felix Saddler]

im thinking of the waypoint programe through OAT, (modular) however, what would i do after i graduated and i wasnt employed how would i become employed?

[sicky]

I'm just stumped really. I have this real gut feeling, that integrated is the only real way for me. Justifying this is another matter!

I'm trying to keep as many options open for as long as possible, it just seems that there's so much for and against any option that is out there.

I don't know myself whether i can even finance integrated. I've applied for Jerez, and their GB Airways scheme, so need to go over and sit the aptitude tests.

Everyone who has replied to my eariler post seems to understand where i'm coming from. It's weird, it's as if the financial risk with Int. is huge if you don't get a job, but you're less likely to find a decent opening with the mod. course, so may struggle to pay it back, although i imagine the repayments are much more managable.

I'm still trying to put my finger on exactly what it is that is getting to me about this!!

[aviator001]

hi i was wondering if anyone could tell me what are the minimum requirements to go from zero to fATPL JAA licence including the maximum time to get the licence and the min amount of hours to ger the different parts of the licence eg me and ir. or does anyone have any useful links for me. also do you recommend integrated or modular training. what are the pros and cons of both. what do you think of ignatia in greece. cheap taraining..

[captwannabe]

Have a look at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649

Have a look at the Flying In Ireland Forums at www.flyinginireland.com/forum (http://www.flyinginireland.com/forum)

Use the search function

[speedrestriction]

minimum requirements to go from zero to fATPL JAA licence
I'm not sure what you mean. fATPL = CPL, MEIR, MCC and JAA Class I medical.

maximum time to get the licence
It really takes as long as it takes, depends on the candidate the weather, the school, etc.

Minimum time? - I imagine about twelve months if you are very lucky

min amount of hours to ger the different parts of the licence
For modular you need 150TT and 100PIC to start your CPL course I think. In the UK at least course content (ie. sim/aircraft split) is agreed between the FTO and the CAA.

do you recommend integrated or modular training.what are the pros and cons of both.
This topic has been covered ad nauseam on other threads. I suggest you use the search function.

SR

[TheChiefPilot]

To start your CPL training, the JAA require 150 hours total time including 5 hours night(3 dual,minimum 1 hour dual Nav,and 5 T/Off-Landings Full stop).

You will also need to have your 9 CPL or 14 ATPL exam passes.

Prior to Licence application you will need 100 hours pic, and Total time of 180 hours if you do an approved modular course of training.

I hope this helps you, in your quest to look out of the window for a living.

The Chief Pilot:cool:

[Felix Saddler]

Is it pointless to gain your PPL if your'e intending to go integrated?

[Mercenary Pilot]

Pretty much...its worth doing a few lessons though to see if you actually like flying before spending the best part of 100k (and 10 years of debt) on it though.

:ok:

[Felix Saddler]

im currently doing my PPL at the moment and love every second of it. should i continue to spend what little money i have on lessons or save it for an integrated course? also 100K i thought it was like 60K?

[Whirlygig]

Or continue with your PPL and continue through a modular course giving you chance to work and save in between.

Cheers

Whirls

[Felix Saddler]

Im still pondering whether or not to go modular :rolleyes:

[Mercenary Pilot]

100K I thought it was like 60K?

Depends on where you go really, just remember the prices you are quoted is for absolute minimum training. Most people do go over these minima, 3 hours in a twin can cost £750+ so prices can easily spiral (and often do). Also stuff like CAA flight test fees (£700 each:eek: ) and ground exams (£60 each), Approach Fees, Landing fees and of course accommodation all add to the cost of the course.

As for going Integrated or Modular... There are Pros and Cons of both. You need to work out what is best for YOU and don’t get taken in by marketing hype. If your going to go Integrated, there’s no point in finishing your PPL as the discount you get is very small and sort of undermines the point of the course anyway.

Good Luck :ok:

[Felix Saddler]

Ok thanks for that MP, i will probably go integrated as i like the idea of the course and its structure.

[Keygrip]

No, Chief Pilot - it doesn't.

Why the name change, btw?

[LeeH88]

Im still pondering whether or not to go modular :rolleyes:

Same, recently Ive been all "Not doing modular, only integrated" but on thinking about it, if I work hard at ground school, pass first time, etc. After training I can instruct and fly other ways to build hours up, so Im seriously considering the whole modular route. But I'll wait and see what FTE say later next month.

[aviator001]

so would you reccomend modular or integrated. if i went integrated i would be quitting my job getting a loan and quallifing in about 12 months. if i went modular i would be funding it as i earned over approx a 2 year period. what are the obvious advs and disadvs of each that i am missing

[Mercenary Pilot]

If integrated suits you (and you can "safely" afford it) then go for it. I know alot of guys (and gals:ok:) who have got airline jobs in the last 6 months most of them were modular, 200 hours TT and didn’t instruct.

[Felix Saddler]

200 hours TT

whats the TT stand for?

And where did they train?

[Mercenary Pilot]

TT = Total Time = The total amount of flight hours you've done in your whole career (command and duel). Most modular students finish thier training with just over 200 hours (150 for integrated) because thats the absolute minimum you must have to apply for your commercial licence.

And where did they train?

I know people who have trained all over the place (and world) but quite a few are friends I flew and studied with at Bristol Flying Centre and CATS (ATPL groundschool). I would highly recommend both of these establishments.

Unfortunatly I've seen some of the muppets who like to masqurade themselves as modular professional flght training schools. So I can understand why "some" airlines have a preference for integrated students. The HR departments of the airlines who prefer those courses know exactly what standards and procedures the students have been tought.

[Felix Saddler]

thanks matey

[aviator001]

hi. i cant decide if i should do modular or integrated. i dont want to start off another 1 of those debates but would like to hear from people who have gone down either of these roads from a similar financial situation as myself and if you are pleased with your decision and path to the skies.

i am an aircraft engineer (line), doing A320 transits, earning a decent wage. i get a considerable amount of holdiays each year (up to 2 months). this time off work would suit me to do my ppl and then an hours build etc etc, all while studying the atpl ground school in my evening and weekends. i would predict zero to fATPL in approx 15 months while still earning at a max total cost of 28,000 euro with no loans.

or in 12 months time i would be in position to leave my secure job and get a loan of about 25,000 euro and use my saving for the rest and do my training in greece for under 60,000 euro and have no administration headaches myself, just concentrate on training.

is there anyone out there who had to mae this decision from a similar position as myself. advise and comments most welcome.:confused: aviator..

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

We are not deaf, you don't need to scream at us :)

[Cirrus_Clouds]

"im confused, what should i do"

Aren't we all mate! :D

[raviolis]

hi. i cant decide if i should do modular or integrated. i dont want to start off another 1 of those debates...

then DON'T !!!! ;)

[Cirrus_Clouds]

:ok: Loving it. :E

Have you looked into modular or integrated routes at all?

Modular costs less (can be full time or part time) (£30-40k ish), enables you to do different ratings where you want, where as Integrated is full time, costs nearly twice (£70k-80k ish) as much and gives you the same qualifications in possibly a shorter space of time (depending if you were to do the modular full time).

You would quite likely gain more hours of experience doing modular.

If money isn't your concern, nor full time study, do Integrated.

You will obtain the same qualifications, but a higher "possible" (so airlines say) chance of a job at the end if doing Integrated, but again not guranteed.

The decision is yours...... :ok:

... That's basically summarising the whole lot.

Do a search, you will find LOTS of info on these types of training.

[BlueRobin]

If you quit your job, would it be easy to pick it up again? If you are not earning, you may find yourself in a situation needing more money to get that extra vital rating. Similarly, your job whilst providing an income at least during the ground theory D/L stage may be holding (or stressing) you back both mentally and physically in which case studying may be difficult.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649 is a golden thread to churn through.

[aviator001]

my job is not stressful, its a doddle and i have ample free time during my shift for distance learning studying, if i quit i would not get my job back, ever, but i would get other work or contract work, i have type ratings as an engineer so work is not a problem. i think i will give modular a go al least for the ppl anyways..

who said anything about screaming, im not screaming, im talking!!!! :cool:

[wbryce]

Hello Mate,

Only yourself will know what option best suits but personally if you have a well paid job then I would just continue to work away and pay as you go. Not having a considerable loan amount on your shoulders after qualification would be a large benefit and stress free for you.

Remember, modular or integrated - both get you the same license, it depends how much you believe what the integrated PR departments says and if that justifys the extra expense.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you choose to do! :-)

[aviator001]

i can do my ground school here in ireland for approx 3,500 euro which includes all 14 exams and 2 two week sints in class pre exams and text books etc.

does anyone know if it is possible to use notes that you aquire privately, eg ebay, and to just apply for the exams as you please??!!

like i mean once you pass all 14 its the same thing right wheather you pay through the nose for the material or not is your own business.. well thats the way it is with the jaa exams for mechanics...:cool:...

[XL319]

Go abroad to do the modular route, cheaper and faster

[bluepeely]

I'm in the same boat mate but think i've made my mind up on modular so to keep working. If you go integrated you'll be 60k down at least then your loss of earnings for 18 months so it adds up:{ . I've also got the books off e-bay := so im learning now and it will be easier when it comes to the school side of things (hopefully). Save ya money for a type rating then live the dream.

Good luck man

[aviator001]

so what is your plan for ground school mate? are you going to self teach and then sit thew exams at your leasure?? what kind of time scale are giving yourself here..

[Fancy Navigator]

Hello everybody,

I know everybody is going to say that this is a moan, that I am a fann., that I should get a grip, etc..., but there we go....

To people out there considering going down the road of professional Pilot Training,

DON'T DO IT !

Why? It a catch 22 situation !

DON'T DO IT !

Do not do it if:

- You have to borrow a lot of money to pay for your training. If you are rich or mummy and daddy are willing to pay for it, then you are OK.

- You go down the modular route.

CPL/IR/MCC will lead you to nothing.... 250ish hours are worth nothing!

Then you are going to say, "What about doing a FI Rating to get a bit more experience?" To that I will reply " Where do you find the money to pay for the rating, when you are already in debt (£25k at least), and then, how do you pay all the debt back and live decently when you earn peanuts as an instructor?

"What about getting a Type Rating?" You must be kidding, I hope....:=

"What about doing aerial photo, parachuting, etc.....?" Is this really a job, or more of a part time/weekend activity? There does not seem to be a lot of these going on anyway....

"Why do you want to go to airlines? What about biz aviation/charter?" Once again, 98% of biz aviation companies recruit guys with thousands of hours, so with your fresh fATPL, you're out of the question.

- You do not have good contacts: your dad or your uncle is the chief pilot at xxxx, or your best pal ever is a captain at xxxx. Sending out CV's is a waste of time, it is not what you know, but who you know, regardless of your ability as a pilot.


Fortunately, I have another job which keeps me going. If I had chosen to give up everything to become a pilot, I would be living under a bridge now.
Yes, I know, nobody owes me a job, yeah I know that, but I do not see the point in training so many people when obviously there aren't enough jobs for everybody. On top of that, contrary to loads of other jobs, there is no way you can get experience after you qualify, and live on a decent pay.
Don't tell me I don't want it hard enough, I do more than anybody, and I will always do and keep trying to see an end to the tunnel. However, I am not ready to sacrifice everything I've got for the promise of a job which remains as much a chimera as ever. Not worth it! You can't live on dreams, you have to remain realistic, and the reality is that you have no guarantees.

Dream on....

Regards;)

[Deano777]

Is it April fools day already? :rolleyes:

[njptvr]

I am luckly enough to now be in a position to enrole myself on an integrated Ab to ATPL course.
I have been looking at the usual suspects, Cabair, OAT, FTE and have passed several selection tests. I am 29 and am leaving a good job that pays well to follow a dream.
What i want to know is this...
Would I be better off in the short term to:
a. Do a conventional integrated ATPL course, pass it with the highest grades I can and pray there is a job for me at the end of it?
or
b. Do a cheaper ATPL course such as the one at Egnatia Aviation then come back to the UK to do an MCC and Type Rating course and pray there is a job of me at the end of it?
Can anyone who has any experience with pilot recruitment give me their opinion on which path will give me the best chance of a sucessful career please though everyone elses opinions are welcome too!
Thanks for any help people are willing to offer!

[IRISHPILOT]

Hello,

Am just a normal pilot, but have been with several companies, none of which would have been interested without the appropriate rating. None ever looked if I passed well or not in flight school.

You are at an age where companies usually expext hours.

You may not get the first job in the UK, but abroad, where nobody is interested in OAT, etc. However, if you have a rating, say A320 or B737, you are more usuable. Many people buy hours on type nowadays, they are cheaper than on a Cessna and certainly more valuable. (Possible in many companies all over the world, including the UK.)

On the other hand, you may get into a sponsoring programme or get a company to give you a contract before you do the rating, however, make sure that you include a possible rating in your financial calculation.

Some people, time permitting get a FAA rating, buy 500 hours, no MCC needed and a 4 hour coversion (to JAA) is still cheaper than a simple rating in the UK. (Frouned upon this site, but those people have jobs if not complete idiots.)

Getting a job is to equal parts skills/knowledge, luck, knowing the right people, hours/rating and luck.

my pennies worth. cheers, IP

[scroggs]

Integrated versus others, but not modular? I don't understand your terminology. There are two ways of obtaining an ATPL under JARs - integrated or modular courses. If you wish to compare UK integrated schools with other JAA integrated schools then say so. However, there aren't many outside UK that aren't associated with a national airline, and some will require you to do your learning in their national language.

Another consideration is that many UK airlines (including mine) insist on a UK-issued JAA ATPL. This is, at least in part, due to the ease with which licences and experience can be forged or fraudulently obtained in some countries. It's not difficult or expensive to convert, but it may introduce complications into your planning.

Scroggs

[Vee One...Rotate]

It can't hurt to try for one of the (very few and far between) quasi-sponsorship schemes out there. OAT, Cabair and FTE all have schemes like this - not sure of deadlines etc. but their websites will have details. CTC Wings is another option.

I've been lucky enough to gain a place on one starting at OAT next month and, although not a sponsorship in the traditional sense of the word, every little helps. It certainly gives you slightly more peace of mind as regards employment prospects...though nothing's guaranteed! One thing to worry less about though.

Best of luck,

V1R

[njptvr]

Opinions please ladies and gents...
For the same cost, circa £65k it is possible to either:
a. Complete a JAA Ab to ATPL Course at a UK FTO like OAT or Cabair
or
b. Complete a JAA Ab to ATPL type course at an Overseas FTO like Orlando Flight Training in the USA or Engatia Aviation in Greece AND then afford to complete a type rating
From experience or opinion which is likely to give you the better job prospects.
I know there are some strong opinions about paying for type ratings but that is another discussion all together!
Thanks for your thoughts! NJP

[Foo]

Hi, I am also seriously considering to start a career in aviation but, as a lot of people, still not sure which path to follow. On one side I like the modular route, on the financial side but also because the fact that you have a lot of freedom by completely outlining your own course path.

On the other side, the integrated route looks also very attractive to me in terms of study time and the contacts an integrated FTO possibly has with airliners (differs per school ofcourse...)

But, for me, with almost zero flight experience as a PIC (only did a discovery flight which I really enjoyed :ok: ) I find it a huge step to go from here all the way to a frozen ATPL. So personally I prefer a path of first getting a PPL and THEN decide to make the step all the way to a frozen ATPL. So some kind of an integrated course after you've got your PPL but without the PPL part of course.

Can someone tell me if this kind of path exists or is it just foolish :rolleyes: what I am thinking of and is modular the only option in this situation. Hope someone can help. Thanks in advance!

[Tim_Q]

Hi there Foo,
I was in your position a while back so hopefully can offer a bit of advice -

The one thing that I must emphasise is please don't go and sign up for an integrated training course until you have done some more flying! :uhoh: You need to be REALLY sure that an aviation career is right for you and the best way to start is a PPL. Not only do you learn a lot about flying you will also make a load of new friends and contacts that will start you on your way if you decide it is still a career you want to pursue. There is a lot of networking involved in getting a job as a professional pilot, 'Fancy Navigator' is entirely wrong in his assessment though, it is not simply who you know although networking can play an important part. Anyway everyone knows this in the industry and you find people help each other out a lot when it comes to looking for work!
So in answer to you main point I would say definitely do a PPL first, then you can be sure before you splash the cash! It used to be the case (and I would hope still is) that schools will reduce the cost of an integrated course appropriately if you already have a PPL so you should not have to rule this path out.
I hope this help and best of luck!

[weis]

Greetings, wondering if any of you guys would approve of this plan or have possibly gone through this route:

Current status: JAA PPL

Intention:

USA - FAA integrated/Instructor ratings (through Flightsafety) + JAA CPL/IR/ATPL/Instructor ratings (through EFT) + hour building through instruction then return to the UK

OR

UK - JAA integrated through to fATPL (or modular) bearing in mind no hour building

Budget = £50,000

What would you opt for? I honestly don't wish to start another integrated vs modular discussion, have searched through the other threads but can't seem to find anything similar. Any advice would be appreciated.

Regards

[GusHoneybun]

weis,

judging that you want the JAA licences, i'm assuming that your ultimate goal is to work in europe. so in your situation, getting all the associated FAA crap is a waste of time. get your JAA licences (either in the states, but preferably in europe) plus an instructors rating straight away.
going to the states for 2 years on a J1 visa will give you just as many hours as you can gain back home, however you are much more likely to build up contacts for the shiny RHS whilst instructing in the UK rather than slogging round florida with some fat septics.

[AlphaMale]

Hey guys I have a couple of questions that I’d like answering/a bit of direction. I have been on this forum so much in the evenings and even during my work time (not that the boss knows).

I don’t want to be the typical guy you get on here asking questions that get answered day after day after day but I feel that some things are not so clear or people differ in opinions.

My ideal job is to be an Airline Pilot - Infact I’d settle for anything so long as I can fly for a living (FI). I have looked at the good points and the bad points and I still think the airline job is my one big goal in life than needs to be achieved.

My background;

21/01/82 making me 24 at the moment.
6’2” and confident I’d pass the Class 1 Medical.
Was in the ATC at 13 and 3 months and left when I was 17 and clocked only 7.5 hours in a Chipmunk/Bulldog/Viking Glider.
I just about passed my A’level Maths(F) after moving from a Welsh school to an English school and also had a Merit in my GNVQ IT. (I am fluent in both English and Welsh).
I studied Multimedia Tech at Uni and passed my BSc with a 2:2
I currently work as a Web Designer / IT Advisor / IT Teacher for a local company for about £20k per year.
I have £10k for my training so far.

I was looking to do my PPL but after finding out more on this forum I am going to go all the way if funds/ability allows it. But I am stuck between Integrated and Modular course?

I am I right in thinking the following;

Integrated with OAT/CabAir/FTE will give me a better chance of landing my 1st RHS job quicker and I’ll have an advantage due to being Integrated?

If I did a Modular with OAT/CabAir/FTE would the Airline look at me as being trained to the same standard as the Integrated students at OAT/CabAir/FTE?

Am I better off getting my PPL and applying for a sponsorship with e.g. Flybe or leaving my hours blank so CabAir can mold me into exactly what Flybe want with no bad habits to correct? Would a PPL really show I am a dedicated applicant and serious about flying?

Try and keep to no more than 2/3 flight schools?

The fAPTL expires after 3 years? Does this mean if I self fund myself through £70k of training I might loose a lot of it if I don’t get a job within 3 years? (I don’t understand).

I read a forum user stating an airline don’t care if you are integrated/modular – They would prefer a applicant who has an fATPL / Type Rating / Many hours in the big blue sky?

These are my ideas so far –


Apply to Flybe when they reopen the application for training in Jan 2008 saving money in the process toward my share.
Quit/Take time off work (60 days) do the ‘ATPL Prep’ at Ormond Beach for £10k. Come back find another job and start studying for my ATPL exams at Bristol ground school. When I finish them go to OAT/CabAir/FTE to do my CPL/IR/MCC/JOC.
Wait a while (build up some money for another 18 months) and self-fund myself through the 0-ATPL at egnatia aviation for £30k, and when I get home to a MCC with a local flight school which will cost another £2,500 or £5k with a JOC.
Get a £50,000 HSBC Loan and go with OAP/CabAir in a hope that their reputation will get me on the flight deck. (Secured on my parents home – which is not what I want to do).
Get my PPL and Night Rating done and build up 150 hours and apply for the ‘WayPoint Pilot Program’ at OAT at a cost of £5/6k for the PPL & Night Rating and another £25/30k for WayPoint.
Re-sit my A-level Maths and take up a Physics A-level in a local collage, in a hope of getting a good grade. Pick up an additional language like Spanish to make my CV look a little better to an airline before I do one of the above (all the while saving money for the training).
I know of 6 people who have self funded themselves through Pilot training and all have landed Pilot jobs with good airlines (BA/GB/easyjet etc). To my knowledge 5 of them did Integrated and 1 of them took 4 years to complete the modular route and clocked up 1,000+ hours (apparently at a cost of £70k+) and will be starting a job with easyjet within a month or two.

Sorry for the long post :ugh:

Regards

Andrew

[potkettleblack]

Couple of things that might make your decision easier. The OAT/Jerez integrated courses aren't £50k I am afraid, likely closer to £100k (and excluding living costs). Modular will depend on a number of factors including where you go (US or UK or some other far flung place). Expect to not get much change from £50k though and not much more than 250 hours at the end of it. Of course that will be the fatpl only (PPL, ME, CPL, IR, MCC).A type rating can add on another 10-25k depending on aircraft should you decide to go down that path but that is a few years away so leave the decision on that for another day and who knows what the market will hold for us all in the next few years in anycase.

I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the likes of HSBC etc aren't providing professional studies loans anymore. Perhaps OATS, Jerez, Cabair etc have relationships with local banks that can get you the finance required, however, I am pretty sure if going modular that finance has all but dried up unless of course the security you can offer on your folks house swings the bank manager.

I think it is fair to say that if getting into the RHS of a jet with a major airline and less than 250 hours under your belt sets your world on fire then go integrated, assuming you can fund it. BUT and a big BUT, you might never get picked up by one of the airlines. In order to maximise your chances you will need:-

- high passes in the ATPL ground school subjects
- first time passes on the flying side within minimum of time
- a decent personality
- get along with everybody - students and instructors/management
- don't fall out with the instructors who will constantly be assessing you and will of course be the ones who recommend you to the airlines
- be in the right place at the right time. Unfortunately if you finish and no one is hiring then you might miss out purely because you aren't at school the day that Mr BA knocks on the door asking for 10 cadets. That is the way the cookie crumbles I am afraid.

Having done all of that you still need to pass any sim ride, interviews entrance exams, group workshops or psychometric tests that the airlines require of you.

If you are pretty confident that you can do all of the above then go for it. If your not sure then you might just want to save yourself some cash and go modular. There are a lot of ex integrated students that never made it into an airline for whatever reason - more likely bad timing if nothing else. Of course OAT etc won't tell you that in their marketing spin.

Finally, the fatpl won't expire so long as get your IR within the prescribed time and don't let it get to far out of date. You would be foolish to let it lapse in anycase as it doesn't take much rocket science to work out that a pilot who is current on type with a valid IR is much likelier to pass a sim ride than someone who has gone back to work and let it all slip. LASORS (do a search) has all the rules and regs on what you need to get and how long everything stays current.

Good luck.

[scottiedogg]

The school im attending at the monent for the atpl groundschool does modular and integrated routes. All my modular class can seem to decifer is that intergrated students pay an extra £25000 for a PPL and some hours, oh and some airline prep interviews that ive been told arent worthwhile anyhow! Ok so integrated may mean you get a better shot at an airline job straight from qualifying, but this isnt always the case. £25k extra for a slight better shot at a direct entry airline job. Alot of the intergrated students still have to pay a type rating after qualifying so theyre into spending the wrong side of £100,000
I'll stick to my modular training and have the £25k for a type rating heaven forbid i have to pay for one

You do the maths :ugh:

[AlphaMale]

Thanks potkettleblack,

I have been sent a PM with very good information too.

With regard to the cost at Integrated at the big schools I knew it would be more like £80/90/100k but I just stated that HSBC (OAT local) will offer up to £50k if you go integrated. Modular would have to be self funded :rolleyes: .

I don't think I would be too happy being one of the integrated pilots having spent £80k+ and still no RHS. But I have been asdvised to look at the 'CTC Wings - Cadet' as I have nothing to lose. If I fail to get in I will go modular and sit my ATPL myself then re-apply to CTC for the 'Wings - ATP' failing that I will simply have to foot the bill for the CPL/IR/MCC myself at another flying school within 3 years of my last ATPL exam.

Thanks again for your time and reply (it is helping me a lot)

Andrew

[AlphaMale]

Thank you Scottie,

In all honesty that does seem the case. I guess If I can do my modular steps from PPL to ATPL/CPL/IR within 1.5/2 years that should prove that I can work under a time limit/stress (although it would mean taking time off work for sure).

The catch I see is coming out of an integrated course with 250 hours and landing a job is good :) - But if I go modular and come out with 250 hours under my belt I am still short of 750 hours before being considered for a small airline. If I add this hour building cost to the modular route it'll probably make it more expensive than integrated :bored:

I guess the other option is to go modular and pick up an FI and then get paid a small amount to build up my additional 750 hours needed for the RHS. I'd be happy to take a pay cut to work full time as a FI doing something I love ... never know I might love being a FI that much I might stay put ;)

Thanks

Andrew

[scottiedogg]

Andrew,

Whether you do intergrated or modular your only going to come out with the same rough hours of around 200-250hrs. Nobody expects you to pay for 750hours by yourself.

Many integrated students still go without jobs for ages, or will have to go down the instruction or self type rating funding route like many modular students. Of the numbers of people who do intergrated courses only 50% get put forward and only 25% will normally get direct placements tops from the likes of Cabair or OAT.

With everything in aviation its who you know and when and where you apply.

Talking of time limits, theres very little difference. Your talking 18months for an intergrated course, and as long as your fairly full time at modular it doesnt take much longer to do it. For example with myself, i will be working here and there to fund the course as i go along. Forgetting about my PPL, from the date i started my hour building up to being full qualified (PPL, Night, MER, CPL, IR, MCC) im looking at roughly one year, give or take, add to this the couple of months it took me to do my PPL and night rating etc, were not talking much over 18months, so not too far off intergrated route. Add to it another month to do an instructors rating its not bad going.

For me i will be fully qualified at 20, so it wont be the end of the world if i end up instructing for a few years, as i will still be under say 25, so im not in a real rush for an airline job (although it would be nice) once ive qualified. For you it may be different.

Scott

[AlphaMale]

Scottie it looks like you are on to a good thing there!

25 years old with 4/5 years of instructing under your belt and fully qualified. A Captain in the making for sure :ok: ... Looks like I'll be in my late 20's or even 30's before I get the shout.

Andrew

[scottiedogg]

Dont worry about that. You will have the same qualification and still easily be within recruitment criteria!!! From what ive heard lately too, on a CV too you will possibly look a better candidate than say myself, as alot of airlines like to employ people with a bit more 'life experience and age' behind their belt, not fresh faced punks straight from school lol

Im relatively happy with my plan. Ive been considering delving into multi engine and maybe insturment training to get the twin time up if i do end up instructing. As with everything though, its time, money, and hours :ugh:

Im sure we will all get there one day eh!?! :D

[AlphaMale]

I hope so ... We do have age on our side which is the worst fear (qualified at 40/45 and looking for a job). I might be looking at a promotion and a pay rise at work to IT Manager so I guess they are not bad skills to add to my CV.

Good luck Scottie I'm sure we'll meet again.

Andrew

[umzy]

:ok: Loving it. :E

You will obtain the same qualifications, but a higher "possible" (so airlines say) chance of a job at the end if doing Integrated, but again not guranteed.



Ok, now you ping another issue :ugh: ... what if Already Graduated ( IT, Engineering etc etc) and go for Modular .. at end u still got Graduated degree with all other modules... Does this help ?

[stuharri2002]

Hi,

I completed my PPL in Sept 2003. Since then I have been working to pay off the loan and saving for the next stage. I have decided to go for the integrated course at OAT. However, in the past 2 years, due to the cost of repaying my loan I have not been able to keep current. Also I think that it will take me another 2 years to save the remaining money for the OAT course, during which time I doubt I will have any spare money for flying. Due you think my lack of currency will be a problem for the OAT course? Also should I think about doing the ATPL ground school and exams during the next 2 years to keep myself sharp? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

stu

[Blinkz]

Don't forget that the OAT integrated course is ab initio and so most people on it won't actually be able to fly at all. It is desgined to take you from no hours to CPL standard. As such I don't think you will have much problem if you don't fly before it.

As for doing the ATPL groundschool, if you do them yourself before going to OAT then you won't be allowed to do the integrated course, you would have to go down the modular route.

[Lucifer]

All the integrated courses make allowances for previous flying hours, and PPL holders. Reworking the basics is never a bad thing, to solidify that knowledge.

[badboy raggamuffin]

If you went modular your financial concerns would be eased considerably, you already have a ppl so why not just carry on from that?
Is the perceived adantage of going integrated really enough to compensate for the apparent hassle you face in doing it?

The debate continues:)

[Wannabe1974]

The debate continues:)

It does indeed. This is just my personal view, so please no fiery attacks saying I'm talking rubbish! I'm starting at OAT in December on the integrated course for a number of reasons:
1. I have a PPL but it has now lapsed (so I guess I don't really) which can only really give me an advantage as the hours spent learning to land the thing shouldn't really be needed and I can hopefully go onto harder stuff, quicker.
2. Modular courses are great, but you can't escape the facts: The big airlines seem to like integrated.
3. I want to get it done quickly instead of messing about for years.
4. Most people's arguments for modular seem to be that they did it and therefore it must be better.
5. The arguments for integrated seem to be mostly that people thought it was good. I prefer to go with the positive argument!
6. I'm not exactly a spring chicken, so I want to maximise my chances of getting a job.
Hope this helps your thoughts. As I say - just my reasons for doing integrated. Some people might think I'm nuts, but I'd like to think my brain is able to weigh up the options and make a good decision!:p

[Lucifer]

Don't forget the real cost of going integrated i.e. 18 months or so out of work - while being modular you can reduce that cost dramatically. I have two friends who went modular in the states did the IR at a good school and both walked into jobs one jet, one TP. Total cost £35,000 + 3 months out of work. I've also known people integrated who failed their given interviews with airlines upon graduation. total cost £60,000 + 18 months lack of income - real cost say £90,000. Of course going integrated does open doors for you if your lucky but if your smart so can going modular and less time paying back your bank manager and more time enjoying your hard earned cash.
Always a salutory lesson if you are self-selected, and not assessed for your personal skills and ability to pass the interview under either route.

[Dr Eckener]

I want to get it done quickly instead of messing about for years
That about sums up the reasons why lots of people end up in lots of debt with no job, and enables airlines to ask for TR's etc.

[Wannabe1974]

That about sums up the reasons why lots of people end up in lots of debt with no job, and enables airlines to ask for TR's etc.

I knew it wouldn't be long.....
How do you figure that? How does modular mitigate for this not happening (xmt that it is cheaper)?
I've weighed up the risks and potential benefits and reckon its worth it. I'm swapping a life of dullness for something I have wanted since I can remember. Even if it does make me poor.
I have to say the amount of negativity on this website is a bit boring, but thankfully doesn't put me off. I think many Wannabes (probably me included) would be better off without reading it really. Sometimes you have to take risks in life! All you can do is be aware of the risks. You only get the one chance...
I'm well out of my comfort zone financially for the first time in my life and I love it!!

[Gufo]

That about sums up the reasons why lots of people end up in lots of debt with no job, and enables airlines to ask for TR's etc.

It's not necessarily about going integrated or modular. You can as well go integrated and THEN take your time to work your way up the ladder, from aerial work and the lot. But you need a sort of commitment to patience, because the temptation of buying this and that to skip some steps will be, and unfortunately IS, strong. The modular route somehow helps in keeping a more natural pace. Note: I'm an integrated guy! The point is -and what I think Dr Eckener meant- that the aforequoted attitude ("I want to get it done quickly instead of messing about for years") is completely wrong, it's dangerous both for the individual and for the other thousands of wannabees, to say the least.
I can't help repeating: don't think an ATPL is a route to the airlines. It is NOT. Although it might eventually happen that you find that kind of job when you're finished, what you're buying by the FTOs is the chance of being a PILOT. THEN you have to develop this initial chance from the bottom of the stair, not trying to take ANOTHER chance by jumping at the top (or so they say..). Enjoy your climb; it's tasty, possibly one of the best parts of your career: and again, being thrown in a shiny big jet like a bowl-fish in the ocean, without tasting the joy of that "previous" experience, is really like missing something.

My 2 pennies ;)

P.S.: And oh, Wannabe1974, when you say I'm swapping a life of dullness for something I have wanted since I can remember.
That's great, it's so damn right to chase your dreams. But try not to sell your parents and things like that on the run, because..
Even if it does make me poor.
One day you might have a different opinion :)

[Dr Eckener]

Gufo sums it up very well. I did not make any distinction between integrated and modular, just your attitude of 'I want it now!' I wish you all the best, but do not think that buying licences and ratings is the key to getting a job.

[Wannabe1974]

Gufo sums it up very well. I did not make any distinction between integrated and modular, just your attitude of 'I want it now!' I wish you all the best, but do not think that buying licences and ratings is the key to getting a job.

Why would I think that? And I'm not buying anything - I'm sacrificing lots and I'm prepared to work bloody hard.
The key to getting a job, any job, is marketing yourself well. There are lots and lots of people who've gone straight into a job after integrated training. I think I'm big enough and have enough experience to be a fantastic candidate for employment. And if I'm not, then I'll just have to work round it. I'm not the kind of person that gets stopped by problems. There's always a way round in my experience.
The point about having a different opinion later is not lost on me. I have a different opinion of the career I am in at the moment from before I began it. Life is full of uncertainty, risk, blah blah blah. The point is that I know that I will regret it if I don't take the chance now. Is that wrong?
I'm sure none of this will be easy, but I would say that I have been to plenty of flight training organisations and met lots of students who think the world owes them a living because they can fly a plane. Big deal! It takes more than that to get a job. And I know that I have loads to offer. So, please, no more negativity! You know what they say - if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!

[George Foreman]

Quote > "6. I'm not exactly a spring chicken, so I want to maximise my chances of getting a job". -from an earlier post

Hmm. This was my reasoning too. I had a career before aviation and when I chose an integrated course at the tender age of 32, this was was one of the things that swayed me. Though I passed all the aptitude/selection tests etc and jumped through all the hoops, it has to be said that the leading integrated course providers do like their "charges" to be young.

I was the oldest on my course by a mere couple of years and there were less than half a dozen older in the school. I addressed it directly before I enrolled and my age wasn't seen as much of an issue before they took my money. However I do recall a few negative comments from staff/managers about 'age' during the course...

I won't name names but "26 at beginning of training, or 28, not any older" was once suggested, and I distinctly remember a 27 yo colleague recounting with some horror a story she had heard from one staff instructor, on the subject of the potential future shortage of flying instructors, that they would look to their graduates because "anyone over 26 and not airline sponsored doesn't stand much chance of getting a job with an airline" ! I also remember attending talks by visiting recruiters, and their maximum age limits kept being revised upwards!

It might not be published policy and they probably won't say it to your face, but the people who say these things do have some influence over your career and they do mean them. Don't get me wrong, I don't actually have any issue with ageism and as an economic liberal I think recruiters should be allowed to employ whoever they want, for whatever reason. As it turns out I have been fairly fortunate in the course of action, the choices I have made, and the opportunities which have come my way within commercial aviation since I completed my integrated training. However, if you aren't exactly a spring chicken I would caution against making the assumption above about the integrated route.

While aviation is clearly experiential pursuit and there clearly are limits, I personally don't think I was too old and if I was then I'm pleased I haven't let it get to me too much !

I have always sought in life to get myself a place at the very best educational establishments so as to achieve the best training in the best learning environment, and for my efforts in meeting those standards to be recognised through the good name of the institution. I am happy to defend the elitist proposition that educational establishments with known standards and a good reputation *can* open doors in life, and I shall never know to what extent having an integrated course on my aviation CV has helped (or possibly hindered?) me in my aviation career moves to date.

Whilst it probably hasn't done any harm, aviation is an increasingly diverse business where one size certainly does not fit all any more. I see all this as more of a cultural than a standards-driven argument. There are legitimate alternative routes, ie some smaller schools where the proprietors have good personal connections, an excellent reputation for training, high technical standards, and for mentoring their customers towards an airline career. I would stress that you do need to feel comfortable in your training environment in order to perform to the best of your abilities, and for that reason I would say this is a case of "buyer beware".

Again, just for consideration, and to stress that this is merely a personal point of view.

Happy Landings
George.

[Antonio Montana]

Originally posted by Wannabe1974
2. Modular courses are great, but you can't escape the facts: The big airlines seem to like integrated.

and alligators make great baby sitters, right.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Can anybody back this up with a few REAL WORLD cold hard facts??????

At the airline I fly for the vast majority of pilots are ex-modular. But then we are not the size of BA.
Just a thought.
Antonio

[Lucifer]

I won't name names but "26 at beginning of training, or 28, not any older" was once suggested, and I distinctly remember a 27 yo colleague recounting with some horror a story she had heard from one staff instructor, on the subject of the potential future shortage of flying instructors, that they would look to their graduates because "anyone over 26 and not airline sponsored doesn't stand much chance of getting a job with an airline" ! I also remember attending talks by visiting recruiters, and their maximum age limits kept being revised upwards!

Don't worry - that is utter BS. Even BA does not believe that. They retrained a large number of flight engineers as pilots through BAe Systems when it was at Prestwick. A large number were successful, desipte ages of up to late 40s.

[George Foreman]

Don't worry - that is utter BS. Even BA does not believe that. They retrained a large number of flight engineers as pilots through BAe Systems when it was at Prestwick. A large number were successful, desipte ages of up to late 40s.


Jolly good to hear it, though from my post I guess that is already quite clear!
Personally I don't need to be persuaded; as a career changer I am my own living proof that one's ability to learn, train others and ultimately move on to a jet fleet does not end at 30! However it does require dedication and it can be just a tad tougher on the liver than some other careers!

However I also have some idea, through first hand experience, of some of the prejudices out there and where they lie. I can confirm that the quotes I used are accurate, and were said in the context indicated at the time. However this was a good few years ago now, and the quoted remarks will have been said in the context of the market at that time, when the "green shoots" of recovery were barely evident and ab-initio schools were not placing such large proportions of their graduates with airlines, as they are now.

Operators' preferences are a another thing..I would defend their entitlement to them of course (whatever the latest PC trend in legislation might be) and I can also confirm that the age stipulation which I quoted did come from a major UK carrier and it applied to their part-sponsorship scheme and ab-initio low hours cadet applicants at the time I commenced my own training. I hear that it has been substantially revised upwards over the past few years. All this suggests a supply/demand driven business, like any other, as opposed to a training issue.

Yes, so far as I am aware BA have always been one of the more enlightened; the lowest age limitation I have ever seen from them being 47, and even that was explained in terms of the economic return on training someone. A flight engineer is not comparable with an ab-initio cadet, though. My captain last week was ex-BA and formerly an RAF flight engineer...clearly it made good business sense to use their experience on the 2-crew flight deck .. after all as flight engineers they were often responsible for directly controlling 50% of the pitch-power couple already !

Anyway, I wish everyone in training all the very best. I'm going to back out here and maybe spend more time on the technical and lifestyle fora, and brush up so as to keep my own instructional abilities a bit more current! Basic training will always be a contentious area as people have positions to advocate and defend. Like most things in life, one size does not fit all and having been through t'mill I see some of the shades of grey between the black and the white, that's all.

George.

[FullTanks]

You should remember that all of the BA ex-flight engineers had many years of jet multi-crew flight deck experience, most had some and some had considerable personal flying experience, they had to pass the standard BA pilot selection procedure and the course at Prestwick was integrated (i.e. intense). Sadly some did not make the grade at one stage or another, including type conversion within BA. I think that they would all agree that the courses (PWK & BA) were tough, not least due to the fact that some were in their 40s - age does play a part in your learning ability. Of those who were successful some went on rapidly to command at LGW and even training positions - they were excellent - I know as I trained many onto the 737. A modular course will not adequately prepare you for the rate of progress during training that an operator such as BA will expect. Some years ago BA tried recruiting pilots who had spent years hourbuilding (one took 9 years to achieve 1000hrs), the result was not a success, and a process which my training colleagues & I would not wish to repeat. If considering embarking on a modular course - know what you are getting into & what the major carriers have previously experienced - they cannot afford to make expensive mistakes during the selection process.

[flyingmutant]

I wonder what peoples opinions are about doing a modular course at a FTO who also runs intergrated courses. That basically cuts it down to Cabair and Oxford.

Is it a bad idea? Will intergrated students get priorty during their training over modular ones?

I know it is definetly down to the individual to find that job but if there are any recommendtions put foward by the FTO to employers do modular folk have any chance?

[Cirrus_Clouds]

I am also considering this option, doing modular at Cabair or OAT. I've got to visit the schools anyhow yet to get a proper idea.
If you do modular at OAT (Waypoint Programme), you must already have a PPL and then do from groundschool -> MCC with OAT. Yet to look into these options more.

I would have personally thought that Integrated students would get prefential treatment by the airlines and maybe the college, so this is why I keep on questioning myself on this one and whether you can think of most well known Modular schools being about equal.

I do wonder if doing modular at these colleges might help as they have some links with the airlines, but then again, it's whether these things the schools say are true, especially for modular students. I personally think having a well known name on a CV helps.

Training is a difficult decision as you will only do this once, while all schools seem to claim their students have found employment.

I have heard of modular pilots having interviews with the airlines from OAT though.

[Gillespie]

Hi guys/girls,

When I was looking at schools for my training one of the most important factors for me was student to instructor ratio.

If you're thinking of going modular then I'd look around at as many schools as you can. Find one that feels right for you. Ideally you'd want a 2:1 student to instructor ratio. At the schools you mentioned you could be looking at 20:1.

If you ask my personal opinion - look at schools like Bristol, Exeter, Aeros etc. All have very reputable courses with good student to Instructor ratios..

Don't always be fooled by the marketing campaigns of the larger schools. From the outside they may look 'glossy', but it can be a struggle as a modular student on the inside.

At the end of the course you'll still have the same licence as everyone else. You said it, it's down to you to get that first job.

With whereever you choose, good luck and happy landings!

[MIKECR]

Modular all the way!! I aint being screwed for obscene amounts of money!!

[whiskey1]

MIKECR,
I aint being screwed for obscene amounts of money!!
Not All Integrated providers Screw you for obscene amounts of money.
Check the CAA Website and you find FOUR (4) providers of Integrated training. Cabair College of Air Training, Oxford Aviation Training , Flight Training Europe SL and Western Australian Aviation College
Check out the prices of all four. One will definately provide a surprise.
http://www.waaviationcollege.com.au/courses/JARIntegrated/index.asp
Just in case you cant find the nice surprise. :ok:

[MIKECR]

Hmmmmm..........its not cheap but its certainly cheaper than the rest! I reckon test fee's etc your still pushing 50k. You can still go modular at roughly 30k, at a push.

[Superpilot]

Also think about the lost earnings. For some it's a supermarket job for and therefore worth chucking in. For others it's not worth it at all. It comes down to personal circumstances.

[SinBin]

Guys,

Simple, go modular, then pay for a type rating at a school like GECAT or Alteon, who CAN place you with an airline with one of their schemes. Same price as an integrated course without a TR. Airlines don't care whether you're integrated or modular except BA.....and with that pension fund? What they do care about is what types you've flown (or can fly) and how many multicrew hours you have on type.

SB

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Simple, go modular, then pay for a type rating at a school like GECAT or Alteon, who CAN place you with an airline with one of their schemes.

Amen!

TROs have far, far better access to the ear of the airline hiring managers than flight schools. Why? Let's look at how cadets are selected to be put forward in your typical 'big' flight school. The Chief Pilot, a Nimrod/Vulcan pilot who has never flown for an airline, will take first pick (mostly based on the arse kissing level of the cadet, or what aircraft his/her dad flew in the RAF). He'll then ask the opinion of the IR instructor who trained the cadet. That instructor has never worked for an airline either. Et voila, cadet CV sent to airline. Great!

Now let's look at a TRO. You'll be selected by at least two different airline pilots (ex or current). Same for your ground school and sim instructors. Finally, once the training is completed, your CV will be in the hand of head of training who's most likely an ex-training CPT of a major airline.

So who do you think the airline hiring manager is going to trust when it comes to chosing who to interview? :hmm:

Don't get me wrong, it still p**** me off that the industry has moved to this situation where pilots are now almost expected to pay for the TR one way or another (as opposed to bonding). But if you're going to play with numbers and wonder whether to spend an extra 20k on an Integrated course or a TR... easy answer!

And for anybody who thinks paying for a TR is selling out... You are completely delusional if you think that washing airplanes, para-dropping for free, banner-towing for almost free, instructing for peanuts, risking your life in a PA-34 single pilot IFR with no autopilot for peanuts, etc. is not prostituting yourself!!!

P

[boogie-nicey]

Indeed the integrated student would appear more tangible at first sight to the airline's training process. However we don't live in an ideal world so not everyone's going to be able to afford neither the time nor money to undertake this particular route. The Modular option is there and there is success attached to it too, especially as we consider so many of ex-modular students how have successfully climbed the ladder and placed themselves in a marketable position in terms of recruitment.

However lets look more closely at the individual and their work/training ethic rather than "what can the system do for me". I just love hearing about those guys who beat the odds and get through it all and make it happen.

Neither Integrated nor modular can claim the exclusive ground of the "the ideal", they do and indeed must co-exist. Otherwise where would we be if all cars were a Mercedes S class, what about those who couldn't afford it or just needed something smaller. The Integrated Vs Modular has more influence at the early "just graduated from flight school" stage rather than the "I'm been in the game for X years now, flying turbine/multi crew ops".

In the US and perhaps other corners of the world they have a very successful modular route that produces pilots who manage to keep their aircraft in the air. The integrated option also produces 'oven fresh" graduates but after a while waiting in the job queue that continuity of training is slowly eroded over time, we are human after all :) No doubt some will state that high probability (their opinion) of securing employment but 100% so what does such a candidate do then. Factor in further related issues such as the relative cheapness of the modular option and a prudent graduate can then use the left over money for a TR, deposit on a small flat or at the very least have a smaller debt. Remember not all integrated students have rich parents or relatives and that debt is sizeable by any stretch of the imagination.

Simply choose wisely what's right, relevant and affordable for you.

[Gullyone]

With the way modern flying is going, the best part of your flying career is the long climb to the shiny jet. It was for me tho I didnt know it at the time.
(20000+ hr retired "flown a bit of everything pilot")

[DJRC]

With pilot recruitment expected to rise and peak within the next few years (as some people suggest), surely this adds merit to doing an integrated or full time modular course (if you wanna save 30K). Be in the job market in 18 months time rather the 36.

My predicament is:

a) take the less risky part time modular route, still earn some money but perhaps miss a more buyant jobs market in the next couple of years.

b) risk everything and go full time, get all my learning done without interruption and be available earlier.

As both options can be done the modular route, the main advantages for option a) is to have a bit of an income and some job security should things go pear shaped.

What does anyone else think?

[Felix Saddler]

Look no further.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649



Felix.

[ATPLwhoops]

Hi all,

Where do you think the best integrated courses are, excluding Jerez, UK and the USA???
I just wanted an idea of where i could go for training on an integrated approach.

Any info would be great!!!


ATPLWhoops

[whiskey1]

Don't think there is a Integrated Provider in the US.

Only 4 listed by the UK CAA at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF.

Two are in the UK, Jerez and the Western Australian Aviation College in Perth. Might be others approved by other authorities.

I think its a very good course but might be a little biased as I work here. I'll let the students here tell you what they think.

W1

[ATPLwhoops]

Hey,

Which school you working for? the one in Perth, if so PM me ;)

ATPL Whoos

[ATPLwhoops]

There are many schools to choose from but i must way up the cost of the course against my personal aspects. I will be needing a loan, so is paying 90,000 at Jerez logical??? I want the course practically offered by Jerez but by another school cheaper if possible.

Any info would be great


ATPLWhoops

[Re-Heat]

There are many schools to choose from but i must way up the cost of the course against my personal aspects. I will be needing a loan, so is paying 90,000 at Jerez logical??? I want the course practically offered by Jerez but by another school cheaper if possible.
It's logical if you want to walk into a job!
Yes, there are good modular courses, and if you have the contacts and the knowledge of whom will take you directly from those courses, then great. Otherwise, Jerez is one of the cheaper of the four (plus CTC) integrated courses as you are not liable for VAT and have accomodation included.

[Groundloop]

FTE do charge VAT. It is included in the list of what the course fees cover.

However being in Spain it may be at a lower rate than the UK. Don't know for sure though.

[JustAnotherVictim]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649

[Mrbobo]

Hi all

Can someone explain the difference between these two and what one is the best to do?

Thanks

Pete:)

[mcgoo]

Put your tin hat on!

[Felix Saddler]

Hi this thread contains all the info you are looking for,

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218620


FS.


( For future reference be careful when posting repetitive questions that can be easily located using the search function, some people on here dont take too kindly to 'lazyness'.)

[Mrbobo]

Thanks lads!

Isnt there a post with it said out not like 13 page worth to read lol

[maxdrypower]

in a nutshell , integrated costs more and is all done in one fell swoop, modular is cheaper and is exactly that , done in modules , its a bit more complex in reality but thats the basics

[Whirlygig]

Modular - get a PPL, do CPL/ATPL exams whilst building hours, do CPL flying course, then other ratings, qualifications and hours before getting full ATPL.

Integrated (note, one "r") - start from scratch with ATPL exams and CPL flying course etc.

Integrated is generally full-time and more costly but can be accomplished in less time overall. Modular is part-time and can fit around an existing job.

Cheers

Whirls

[Baboon Boy]

Firstly, the search function on this website is ****, who can blame the guy for posting a new thread to do with this topic.

Secondly, MCGOO, my good friend, what has happened to you recently? the quality of your posts has gone way downhill.
"put your tin hat on", how is that gonna help the poor guy?

Quote: Felix Saddler:

"Hi this thread contains all the info you are looking for,

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218620


FS.


( For future reference be careful when posting repetitive questions that can be easily located using the search function, some people on here dont take too kindly to 'lazyness'.)"

That kind of excellent advice used to be Mcgoo's domain. I once thought he was moderator material, now i'm not too sure.

Thirdly,
The baboon's take on looking at things with respect to modular or integrated training is to divide the different training routes under different headings for comparison.

1. Cost.
The average price for an integrated course is around 60000 pounds, modular, between 30-40000 pounds. A modular course is on average about 20000 pounds cheaper to end up with the same qualifications.

2. Time taken to complete training.
The full time integrated courses as marketed by the likes of Oxford and Cabair are said to take around 12 months to complete. A modular course, comprising of PPL, ATPL theory, hours building, CPL, MEP rating, IR and MCC can also be completed in the same amount of time if done continuously on a full time basis.

3. Quality of Training.
As the standards for the CPL and IR skills tests are the same for modular or integrated training students, there is no clear cut reason to believe that that students that have one training route should be any better or worse than those who have flown the other.

4. Job Prospects
Integrated course providers claim that they have "connections with airlines", which enable them to place their students into jobs upon completion of training. Having met a couple of integrated students to whom this has happened, I believe that there is some weight to such claims. However, it is a well known fact ( see here:http://www.gapan.org/careers/survey.htm) that airlines have no preference towards integrated or modular students. Therefore, unless you are lucky enough that your name is given when Xairways rings up your flying school asking for trainee pilots, there is no advantage with respect to job hunting through going integrated.

5. Flying enjoyment.
An integrated course results in a FATPL with around 30 hrs less flying time than a mod course. Therefore, if you really enjoy flying, which I would hope you do, you will get 30 hrs more flying enjoyment out of going modular as opposed to going integrated. Also, going modular will give you the chance to do your hours building as you please, flying in a whole host of interesting places. Modular students regularly hour build in places such as the US, South Africa, Australia, Outer mongolia, etc, where simply being in such a place is as much an experience as the flying itself.

Here at Air Baboon we take both modular and integrated students, see www.flybaboo.com (http://www.flybaboo.com) for more infornation.

Our sister training orgainsation, Baboon flight training (www.baboonflighttraining.com (http://www.baboonflighttraining.com)) , based in Tanzania also offers a full modular FATPL course, with a very reasonable price tag of 40000 bananas, and is the only JAA approved flight school operating in Africa.

[wbryce]

look at this flowchart pic, its quite accurate...the more you read the more you will learn about both routes! http://www.wbryce.co.uk/website_pics/ATPL.jpg
Enjoy the reading! :E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thats actually a very helpful little flow diagram - many thanks.

WWW

[PlaneHomerS]

The full time integrated courses as marketed by the likes of Oxford and Cabair are said to take around 12 months to complete.

60 weeks is a better figure....

[rob-d]

I thought I would add this to the information in this thread as it is a point that comes up for everyone when deciding which route to take for training.

Do BA only hire students from integrated courses?

The answer I received from British Airways is that they only hire low hours pilots from integrated courses, but that is only for low hours pilots. For a pilot meeting the minimum hours for direct entry they do not distinguish between integrated and modular.

So if you decide on the modular route then your first job won't be with BA, but it doesn't rule you out permanently.


Hope this is of use to some of you.


Rob

[MIKECR]

Rob,

Thats old news im afraid, its been that way for years. As a slight aside, you should actually look at how many integrated students/percentage of int studes actually find employment with BA per year. OAT's figures for last year claim 27 people were succesful. How many hundreds did they train though?? Only the very select few actually get BA, you need high % first time passes in everything(ATPL' subjects aswell as flying tests) before your even considered. Unless a student is 'pick of the bunch' then look elsewhere.

[cfwake]

Have to admit that i'm going to APP at OAT and the BA job isn't a line that's been used on me at any point, all they said to me is that BA hire from there and that competition for places with them is very tough, have to admit I remember hearing one post that said about BA pilots only being hired from integrated OAT courses - some people do seem to have heard more pressing sales pitches than me but I've never met anyone who's actually gone down there (present or past) on the promise of a BA job/interview!