Be Careful What You Wish For.

[whossorrynow]

The Three Groups at EK

1/ Been here more than four years, they remember the good times, a large group but proportionally a low rate of postings. Tend to shut up and now increasingly to get out.

2/ Been here less than four years, now disillusioned they joined on the strength of EKs previously fine reputation. Proportionally a high rate of negative postings, but now here, will probably stay for hopeful command and then consider their options.

3/ DECs, a small group that doesn't fit in. Proportionally quite a high rate of postings, trying to justify their decision and their position at EK.

So, the most vocal group is the new joiners. Anybody thinking of joining be aware of that.

Also be aware that as EK takes on more DECs, career prospects for First Officers will decline. This is already happening.

What if the complaining new joiners had not joined?

Maybe the company would have been obliged to review the package. Maybe instead of a declining package, an improved package would have been in place by now.

By joining you become part of the problem, by staying away, at least for the time being, you might be part of the solution.

For the people already here it will get worse before it gets better.

Fact. More people have resigned in the last year than in the ten previous years. In an attempt to disguise this the company have recently removed the facility on the internal computer network that displays resignations.

Remember no, repeat, no representation at Emirates. They only understand people voting with their feet, either by leaving or not coming in the first place.

[typhoonpilot]

Maybe the company would have been obliged to review the package. Maybe instead of a declining package, an improved package would have been in place by now.
By joining you become part of the problem, by staying away, at least for the time being, you might be part of the solution.

While I don't entirely disagree with your post, I do want to point out an alternative that all the nay-sayers haven't seemed to think of. If you are successful in keeping people away it is possible that the package will be changed for the better. It is also possible that future deliverys will go to other, alter ego, carriers. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 777-200LR freighters go to Atlas as a result of EK being unable to crew them. That is 100 promotions to Captain, more variety of flying for the current 777 pilots, and potential growth of an internal cargo division out the window. :ugh:

Be careful what you wish for :*


TP

[bluepacific]

What do you expect with no union ? You knew it before you joined, layed on the table, get on with life, stop moaning.

[GoForIt]

What if the complaining new joiners had not joined?
Maybe the company would have been obliged to review the package. Maybe instead of a declining package, an improved package would have been in place by now.
By joining you become part of the problem, by staying away, at least for the time being, you might be part of the solution.

This is precisely why this forum is not viewed as accurate by those of us who will be interviewing at Emirates. The pervasive negativity appears to be simply trying to convince people not to come, not out of concern for the applicants, but in the interests of those already there. It is also quite obvious that most of the complaints are highly emotional in nature, and almost never supported by documentation or specifics. When somone asks for a sample roster, he gets a flurry of responses to his post, but no roster!
Without a union on the property, it is obvious that your only leverage for improving your situation is through supply and demand. You need to decrease the supply of pilots interested in the job to the point where management will improve the package. It appears there is a group of pilots trying to do that through this forum. But still, some of us know people with real names and faces at Emirates who are happy there. Who are we to believe?

My current company's pilot group has a forum like this for tossing around company issues. Most of the pilots in my company are really very happy with their jobs except for the current downsizing and furloughs. But there is a pervasive negativity on that forum too (always has been), way out of proportion to the feelings in the company in general. Why?

1. People will say things on the forum that they will never say in person. It is so easy to vent your frustrations on line where your real name is not even known.
2. These forums tend to attract only a small segment of the total group of people, and when a guy is happy and contented there seems to be no reason to go to the internet to post something. It is when he is frustrated and angry that he is suddenly motivated to go to the internet and air his grievances.

The bottom line is that all the negativity on this forum seems a bit exaggerated. It appears there is a small group of guys who come here regularly to vent. And you just told us why.

GoForIt

[fatbus]

not as bad as you think, but not great by any means
if new f/o's dont come there will be more DEC's because they cannot release the already delayed EK f/o'sfor upgrade training,keep in mind the airplanes here need 1 Capt and 1 F/O,so new airplanes need F/O's just as much as Capt.'s
just as the thread title says with out the intake of F/O's your upgrade may be delayed

[Tail Rota]

Or .........there might be a few guys who dont have their head burried in the sand ......and are trying to at least give an objective view on life here.

I too have read a few posts that seem a little emotional but in most of them so far there is a thread of truth.

Go for it.....i am sorry about ya mates being laid off and I hear the aviation scene is a little shabby in the US right now ....but please remember we live here and we see a lot of what goes in EK .........as well as the experience of day to day life in this rapidly expanding desert city and its not all good.

if you are thinking of coming over please ask your mates who are already in Dubai to give you an honest objective view on both the company and the life here. If they are really your mates, I think you will be very surprised at whats not being discussed here on this forum.


TR

[whossorrynow]

GoForIt

Excuse me for attempting to improve the lot of the established crews at EK. Of course my loyalties should lie with a bunch of traditionally overpaid Americans who having soiled their own patch now seek to come and soil ours.

You appear to have seen a 'red mist' when confronted with my contradiction to your future planning, and have focussed on my suggestion that if less people joined EK things might improve in time. Perhaps you should focus, for example, on my objective information about unprecedented resignations, and then conclude that there may be some truth in the information posted on this forum.

Incidentally, no one is going to publish their roster on a public forum that is known to be monitored by EK management. Or send it to an unknown recipient.

Although this forum is the only form of representation available to crews in this area, and I value that, I don't entirely agree with the concept of strength through representation. Its record in your country speaks for itself.

[EK Shadow]

Clear cut safety reports by recognised organisations have been posted on this forum, what more do you want.........a book?

If EK management is looking at this forum then they know what's comming next.

Maybe on the blacklist with the tour operators.

[montensee]

..........:) .............

[Backwater]

GoForIt.
The opinions expressed here are not those of a minority. You are more likely to find a happy Boeing pilot than a happy Airbus pilot cause the airbus fleet has been thrashed for the past 2 years due to undermanning. The Boeing fleet are about to feel this.
It is a rare day when I fly with a happy pilot, from either seat. This airline has significant manning problems, generated by poor management.
Come for your interview, believe the hype, resign and leave your home country, then in about 6 months to a year, change your pprune handle and start complaining like the majority of EK pilots!

[LIP-EZE]

I can't speak for EK guys but what ever you do, do not come to Australia to live and work, especially Sydney.

Racial violence is at an all time high, the entire beach side suburb of Cronulla was locked down for a week after racial riots. Tax is 47c in the dollar plus you pay a GST(VAT) of 10% on all consumer products. Real estate is too expensive for the average pilot to get into unless you are willing to live an hour drive from the city and airport. The freeways are all tolled and the average toll is $4 a throw.

Let's not forget the current industrial situation. Laws have been passed to de-power unions and wages and conditions are on the slide. Jetstar pilots have agreed to fly the 380 for $167,000 as a Captain and 4 of the Qantas 330 are being taken from Qantas and given to Jetstar to be flown on half the money. A Jetstar 330 Captain earns $147,000 before paying 47c in the dollar tax. As a Qantas pilot, don't expect to become a Captain under about 13 years of service and then it will to be the most junior Captain with no roster stability, just an entire roster of reserve every second roster.

There is no schooling allowance, no medical, no housing.... in fact there are no extras on top of your basic pay.

The truth is that everything I said above is true but I would not leave Qantas. I am trying to illustrate that things are never as bad as we like to think they are. I had beers in Singapore with a few EK crews and I heard from both ends of the happiness scale. Everything from how wonderful it is and everyone should be so lucky to a guy asking me how to apply to Jetstar and get paid $85,000 before tax to live in Sydney (Sydney one of the top 20 most expensive cities in the world).

It is all about perspective isn't it. I suspect EK is not as bad as pprune would make out.

[ernestkgann]

Too true backwater. Why don't people post their rosters here? Because part of the airline culture here is 'like it or leave it'. The bosses won't tolerate either constructive or destructive criticism. So a guy who posts his roster will immediately draw the attenton of the head shed and that is not a positive thing to do in this type of environment.
It's not 'cos the guys are hiding great 70 hr, two day trips to paradise, 10 day off rosters.
To the Q guys, it might be going wormy at home, but being at home is worth a lot cash. Otherwise try it and see.

[whossorrynow]

Thanks LIP-EZE, I agree with your point that people will put up with a lot of BS to stay at home.

Being short of crews and overworked one might think that a large group of Americans coming to Save the Day at Emirates is just what's needed, right?

Well no, the reason people are leaving and quality people are not joining is because of the battering being administered to the EK package, in particular the "cost neutral' revision to the credit system, followed by erosion of buying power due rampant inflation in Dubai, followed by diminishing prospects for First Officers due to the DEC program and so on.

On every flight I have been on in recent months I have witnessed a coversation between flight crew, cabin crew and engineering about the slide in standards within this company. Due I believe to micro cost management by middle management, leading to a devalued product for staff and perhaps more importantly the customer. I understand that middle management take 10% of what they notionally save.

'Keep Discovering' has become a joke catchphrase on the line, and not in a good way.

So, what is the answer for flight crew?

A return to the previous credit system and a salary hike only half way towards the level of the Cathay package would turn this flight ops department around.

Resignations would reduce to a trickle, quality people would want to join again, the DEC program would gradually fade away as it did in the early '90s when EK started to become an employer of choice.

Whatever happens, its going to get worse at Emirates before it gets better. The problem is, it may never get better.

At the moment its a sick airline.

[gj18457]

GoForIt

Your friends in EK who have given you another view contrary to what is written here must be working for another airline.As Ernie has said it is obvious with the culture of persecuting within this company why EK pilots dont advertise their rosters on this forum.If you want to come and try this fantastic job why dont just sign up when they pass by your neck of the woods in the US.Be our guest.I guarantee you will be complaining before you
get on your joining flight.
Typhoon why dont you get of the fence and actually join recruitment as you seem to be doing such a great job.A natural patriot.(try running a search on google by entering "typhoonpilot".Im surprised you aren't on a retainer T with all the positive propaganda over numerous sites that you seem to post)
The reason you dont get any input from the 5 yr plus guys as they are too busy filling in their logbooks and job applications.Actually Lip-Eze I said I would go to J* for 85k only if they would give me a leather jacket like Virgin Blue.

[330 heavy]

Seems to me that typhoonpilot posts more facts than most guys. He hasn't always been negative about EK nor has he always been positive. He's just smart enough to not "take the bait" and become emotional in his posts. Good on him!

I think there is a group of guys here who are jealous because everyone is not a miserable human being like themselves so they tend to attack others who don't share their negativity or support them in their whining and moaning.:{
Standing by for incoming:E
330:ok:

On another note:
whossorrynow says:
"Excuse me for attempting to improve the lot of the established crews at EK. Of course my loyalties should lie with a bunch of traditionally overpaid Americans who having soiled their own patch now seek to come and soil ours."

Que? How have the the Americans soiled their own patch?

P.S. Are the rosters for April in the same envelope as the profit share check?

[whossorrynow]

330 heavy

Some thoughts about being in and then exporting the "doo doo" (to use the American parlance).

No great expert on the whys and wherefores of the American situation, but didn't they just price themseves out of the job, leaving the door wide open for Jetblue and the other low cost carriers.

Don't suppose they could have done it without the push of the unions, but I doubt that anybody was complaining about being overpaid at the time.

I appreciate that there were other factors, but the effect was general, not just in the US.

You might say that I am trying to do the same thing at EK, but I don't see EK ever matching the salaries of the US majors. And for obvious reasons I wouldn't want that.

Que? How many Jetblue guys will be applying to Emirates.

Another Que? What reaction would there have been to the US majors taking DECs? Not that relevant I know, but a thought for the US DEC applicants to take to bed with them.

Nothing personal. Love the country, love the people, the US that is. Really.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Well according to Typhoonpilot who posted recently on Airlinepilotcentralhttp://forums.airlinepilotcentral.com/showthread.php?t=1954&page=12

The wankers who complain endlessly on PPrune have lost touch with reality. I had so much time off and away from Dubai last year that it is embarrassing to say how much. I spent two full months in Taiwan, one of them perfectly coinciding with the birth of my son. I flew just over 700 hours in 2004 and 619 in 2005. There are quite a few guys on the A340 that hit 900 ( the maximum ). The 777 guys will fly more this year, but we'll never have the A340/A330 fleet's problems because everybody is qualifed to fly both short haul and long haul. I personally find that I get adequate rest between flights.

His words not mine, if we complain we are w******s. Hmmm :mad: :mad: :mad:

SyB :zzz:

[Tail Rota]

well well well

nice action Shiek....I guess Typhoon is very very happy:O

and that is great ......I am very happy for him:rolleyes: .....however thats not a nice assesment of your colleages Typhoonpilot. I dont consider myself a w@$ker or anybody else on this forum. it is what it is.

those rose coloured sunnies you wear....:cool: ..... will soon break :{ ...and when they do post something on here and be a little honest........... you are the 1st guy I know who was able to take 2 months off to have a baby......congrats by the way. :D if you are on the 330/340 fleet I reckon that it would have been next to impossible to achieve that lenght of time off.

I heard a rumour that a 777 capt tried to take a few days off recently for the same reason........ while being back in Aussie......he got a final warning when he arrived back to dubai. .......

he called crew control and told them that his wife was giving birth and he was unable to make it back for a flight out of dubai and needed a few extra days off.......aparrently this was denied and so he pulled sick.

poor fella got back to Dubai....got told off and resigned on the spot....such a waste especially when he is needed so bady on the 777 fleet at the moment .....the roster is still up on the crew room wall in CBC if you want to see for your self.

Just another rumour with a little truth attached

TR:ok:

[typhoonpilot]

Since we're now chasing down's my posts on other forums to show how I'm such a rah rah EK poster ( How pathetic is that ? :yuk: ), let's look at some more:

In fairness though I do council pilots from the States that I would choose SWA, Fedex, UPS, and maybe a few others over EK if I were younger and had a long career ahead of me. Those people have time to work their way up a huge seniority list to reach the good paying positions with decent schedules. If, however, you are in your late 30s or older then Emirates and possibly other foreign carriers are a very viable alternative.

I could find more, but off to work now :ok:


TP

[whossorrynow]

He doesn't like being found out, but hey, this typhoon pilot must have spent most of his two months off posting, don't see how he could put out the sheer volume otherwise. 243 posts on Pprune alone.

Seems a bit schizoid though, in January he posted that he wouldn't have joined EK if he had known that they were going to take DECs.

Perhaps the new left seat is acting as a bit of a softener. Quite surprised at the bad language though, he seems quite rational on Pprune.

To sum up the other posters on this thread, as thats where this thread started:

The negative feedback is coming from non EK Americans.

The 'sitting on the fence' posts are coming from EK Americans.

The supportive feedback is coming from EK non Americans.

One QF Australian posted his life story.

And there was a garbled post from a Belgian who was 'let go' from EK many years ago.

No surprises really I suppose, except typhoon pilot's bad temper.

[gj18457]

Just wondering Typhoon how long have you actually been in DXB to make you such a career advisor to our US friends.I cant believe you are actually flying with the same guys I do.The overwhelming concensus is that of sadness and sorrow and many do have valid reasons.Do you actually fly with line pilots?How long did you actually take to get your command in EK?This is not a place for guys who have come from a previous major airline to easily settle in and be happy.You never will be and will have wasted alot of money moving and upset your family.Perhaps single guys will have a ok time for 6 months and then you will get itchy feet and also be upset over many of the policies that will no doubt directly effect you.Even the people from the low cost carriers who want to come obviously haven't done their homework.You have to speak a broad cross section of people not only view pprune to make an informed decision.

[330 heavy]

whossorrynow says

"No great expert on the whys and wherefores of the American situation, but didn't they just price themseves out of the job, leaving the door wide open for Jetblue and the other low cost carriers.

Don't suppose they could have done it without the push of the unions, but I doubt that anybody was complaining about being overpaid at the time."

ALPA did a study on the particular airline I worked for and according to their(ALPA) figures, if the pilots would have worked for free, the airline would still have had a cost structure of aprox. 20% more than "break even." While I admit that the unions didn't help matters much, I would never go so as far to say that the pilots are the reason for the sorry state of affairs in the U.S. aviation industry. IMHO it is the mismanagement of the carriers themselves and a large amount of overcapacity of available seats in the U.S. When airlines carry loadfactors of 70 to 80% and are still not profitible, then it is time to look at all factors involved--not just salaries of employees.

whosorrynow also says

"Another Que? What reaction would there have been to the US majors taking DECs? Not that relevant I know, but a thought for the US DEC applicants to take to bed with them"

It would not been tolerated AT ALL in the states and I couldn't agree with you more!!! It is relevant and I for one do not like the process that is taking shape here when D.E.C.s are being recruited ahead of qualified guys who are ALREADY HERE AT EK AND ARE A KNOWN ENTITY!!! The last round of D.E.C.s (for the most part) were a result of a "windfall" of planes that were unexpected. Even at that, there were EK F/Os that were bypassed as a result. This latest batch of D.E.C.s are stepping over F/Os that should be filling the available left seats and I can't imagine that they will be very well received when they turn up. :yuk:

330:ok:

On an different note, typhoonpilot is a real gentleman and would not hesitate to help anyone here at EK who should ever need some support. The bashing he is receiving here just because he tries to present facts and is more positive than most of the other posters is not deserved at all.

[montensee]

-------------:) -------------

[EK Shadow]

-------------:) -------------

Obviously you are one of them.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Good grief EK Shadow, i can see your a level headed fellow, with a balanced view regards you colleagues. Is that a large McCain oven chip/fry i see on your shoulders. :}

Bottom line there are idiots at EK from all over the place, thankfully amongst the pilots they are few.

SyB :zzz:

[turtleneck]

this place seems also to be crowded with paranoids like shadow.
where would they take the manpower from for these obscure activities, if they can't even produce a decent roster on time.
ttn

[whossorrynow]

EK Shadow has previously posted using the names Streamline and CAP56.

He was banned from Pprune when using both those handles as he is unable to control his opinions or his language.

He worked for EK back in the 90s but departed under circumstances that have left him with a grudge against Emirates and in particular the EK Clinic.

He now works for a low cost carrier in Europe.

[harry the cod]

Ah HA.........perhaps then he can now change his handle once again. How about

EK out of the shadows

Harry

[whossorrynow]

SS

He's well known on the Boeing.

And looking up the page he appears to have been moderated, but he's used to that.

And he answers to his name.

That's a cryptic clue but the solution is still on this page.

[330 Man]

whossorrynow Says:
The negative feedback is coming from non EK Americans.
The 'sitting on the fence' posts are coming from EK Americans.
The supportive feedback is coming from EK non Americans.

I am not sure how you can tell where anyone is from by posts, (well except for the aussie). We can put any location we want to.

As far as ek shadow posting with other names so what. You are either posting under another name, or you are a very new member of pprune who is acting like a young lion making a name for himself with his eight posts from Delaware.

I will tell you this: You are full of crap if you think I am sitting on any fence.

I am an american at EK that enjoys going to work every day, loves the fact that the paycheck does not bounce and is never late, love the fact that my retirement fund will never be terminated, (been there done that) and for the most part get to fly with some really great and professional people. I take great joy every day watching my kids get a great education that is 90% paid for by EK. I smile every day knowing that the clinic is only a phone call away and that it is staffed by great doctors. I love the fact that I am no longer commuting and that the car picks me up and drops me off for every trip. I have never been accused of sitting on any fence regarding how I feel about this job. I love it! Is it perfect? Hell no! Is there room for improvement? Hell yes! I have been nothing but supportive of Emirates. But I have not been looking through "rose colored glasses" either. In many of my previous posts I have made it clear that your perception of EK is based on the "baggage" that you bring with you. Those of us from Usair have alot of bagage, so we mostly think that EK is a pretty good deal and we enjoy our jobs. No fence in that last statement.

The DEC issue is no different. I agree with 330 heavy that the last dec's were justified because of the 340-300. (I still wonder though, if the 343 was the reason for dec's why then did we hire dec's to the 777?) This new round of DEC's is totally unjustified and is just plain wrong. I would ask all of those Delta/NWA/UAL pilots who are thinking of coming here as DEC's one question. Would you cross a picket line in the states and take the job of another pilot? If the answer is no, I wonder why you would consider coming to EK and taking the job from a very qualified First Officer who is waiting to upgrade? And the only reason he is not upgrading is because we can not attract enough new joiners as F/O's because of the package. If the answer is yes to my previous question then by all means come to EK as a DEC and you will be welcomed as any other SCAB would be, because that is what you will be. Join as a First Officer and pay your dues like the rest of us. It is the only morally acceptable way to come to EK. Hey whossorrynow, I do not think that there was any fence sitting in that paragraph either!

Lastly, I have known Typhoonpilot for a long time. He helped me greatly when I was thinking of joining with his level headed, unbiased information. I then made my own decision. To all of those exploring EK, I believe you can trust what he says. I trust him more than most of the posters here.
But then I am "just another sitting on the fence" American.

Love to all,
330 Man

[SecurID]

3330 Man, respect where it is due. Hey everyone, how about 330 Man for SVP Flight Ops? This guy tells the truth! :)

[gj18457]

330 man, yes I do agree with your sentiments on the DEC issue as do many others I am sure.And no you are not a fence sitter although I don't recall anyone calling you one. However Typhoon has an obsession with posting all over aviation forums with rather EK tinted glasses.I believe it is very difficult to offer an informed opinion about EK unless you have been in the company for some time and have been privy to the many changes. It is true that any amount of baggage good or bad will cloud your view. No doubt, compared to your situation in US Airways many of the benefits you now recieve may seem great, however, you have only been here for a short time and you do have to live in a sandpit as a sacrifice to receive these.Tell us what really attracted you to EK? Was it the secure job,the limo pickup or the accellerated command that I'm sure your friend Typhoon pilot told you about?

[EKPrisoner]

At one of the USA recruitment drives pilots were told there would be a requirement for 300-400 captains as well as Airbus positions , nothing about 380 just Airbus.
some F/os asked about upgrades and where told it will be 3 years approx till at least 2012.
To me the figures dont stack up.

[whossorrynow]

330 man

Can't argue with your points, but seems to me that you are making what most of the world would consider the norm appear exceptional.

Being paid on time, schooling, medical support. Just how bad is it in the US?

Your DEC dialogue? ....A rare treat. Thanks.

[Ghostflyer]

330 Man,

You make some well reasoned and well thought out arguments. Perhaps your most important statement is:

I have made it clear that your perception of EK is based on the "baggage" that you bring with you

EK and Dubai are quite unreal places because few people plan to stay with either for the rest of their lives but many have no idea where they plan to go when they leave. When I first arrived in Dubai all I could see were the fancy buildings, now I just see the sand in between. The traffic has spiralled out of control and lifestyles have deteriorated with the towns growth.

Perspective is interesting, if you had it better and it gets worse you wonder where it will all end. If you have been through the mill with US Air, I can only imagine how good EK must look to you. Imagine how EK looked to the guys in the States when the top guys at the majors were picking up the mega salaries. No one would have come here for all the tea in China. The EK salary is linked to the US Dollar and so there are no exchange rate woes for Americans unlike the other ex-pats.

Now with all the furloughs and problems in the US EK suddenly looks more attractive. But...to the guys that have been here for a while they have seen only a deterioration in the package and worse still, Dubai's inflation has diminished their spending power further in real terms. Someone quoted that an EK first officer earns less in GBP now than in 2000. We all know for sure that the package is eroding more and more rapidly against inflation. The big question that most of us want to know is when will it stop. Trust me, if it continues as it has even guys that are furloughed will cease to see the attraction of EK and Dubai.

Lets be honest here, not one guy that joined the Majors in 1995 expected to have to lower themselves so far as to go to the sandpit. You all thought about how much money you would make in your last few years on the big jets, how big the pension would be and how much money the 401K would yield. Now that the golden goose has been snatched away EK is suddenly attractive but heed the warnings of those that have been here a little longer.

The package is going down the toilet relative to inflation and the working conditions of EK (Airbus) at least are starting to suck big time. If I could work as hard as I did when I joined (84hrs a month) and earn the same in real terms I would still be pretty happy. I can't and I don't! 10 years ago, an EK F/O had a better life style than an EK Captain does now; but its all about perspective or the baggage that you carry with you.

Ghost

[Wiley]

Not wanting to align myself with either side of the argument, what I think will prove to be really interesting in time will be the reaction of many arriving from the US to what I can only call "the EK Corporate Culture".

[typhoonpilot]

Just wondering Typhoon how long have you actually been in DXB to make you such a career advisor to our US friends.I cant believe you are actually flying with the same guys I do.The overwhelming concensus is that of sadness and sorrow and many do have valid reasons.Do you actually fly with line pilots?How long did you actually take to get your command in EK?This is not a place for guys who have come from a previous major airline to easily settle in and be happy.You never will be and will have wasted alot of money moving and upset your family.Perhaps single guys will have a ok time for 6 months and then you will get itchy feet and also be upset over many of the policies that will no doubt directly effect you.Even the people from the low cost carriers who want to come obviously haven't done their homework.You have to speak a broad cross section of people not only view pprune to make an informed decision.

Let's see if I can answer your questions. I've been in Dubai for more than 3, but less than 5 years. If you are on the Airbus then, no, we wouldn't be flying with the same guys. I did upgrade rather quickly.

My reason for posting on other U.S. webboards has always been to get the word out to the thousands and thousands of furloughed and displaced pilots that there is an alternative to waiting out their furlough in the USA or a chance to re-start their career. I do it as objectively as I can and based on MY perceptions. I try not to get all emotional and I certainly don't have a hidden agenda. I've worked for 6 different airlines, three of which were outside of the USA ( including EK ). I knew what I was getting into when I came to EK and I knew it was a risk to come to the right seat. Fortunately it worked out for me. EK was not my first choice nor do I tell people that it should be theirs.

Seems a bit schizoid though, in January he posted that he wouldn't have joined EK if he had known that they were going to take DECs.


Not schizoid at all, it is a true statement and meant as a warning to those who are considering coming as F.O.s.

I'm not going to apologize for being happy. I like my life and I like my job at EK. My wife and I enjoy living in Dubai. Many of my friends feel the same way. Few read PPrune and fewer still post on here.

Now, is the race track,.......I mean the golf course open again so I can go enjoy some nice weather :ok:


TP

[whossorrynow]

Perhaps I am being a touch pedantic but my paragraph that you quoted indicates that, in fact, you did not know what you were getting into when you joined EK.

But at least it worked out for you. Didn't it.

[Dale Hardale]

TP

Few read PPrune and fewer still post on here.



A couple of things.

Few of your friends might read PPruNE, but believe me, this forum has a VERY wide audience. One of the most widely read aviation magazines, Flight International refers to PPruNe (The latest being with reference to the Ryanair situation). Emirates management reads it, pilot candidates are asked if they read it - so I think the consensus would be that it's widely viewed.

Don't you find it just a little curious that until the last few years, Emirates rated infrequently on this forum. There are very good reasons why. It used to be a well paid job where we were treated with consideration and respect. We cheerfully did the job that was required. Fairly strict employment criteria meant we got people who didn't need to be taught to fly again. (few exceptions as in any airline).

Now look at the relative employment conditions, lifestyle etc etc here in Dubai. No wonder these forums now contain so many prolific comments. Management has their head in the sand (pun intended), and the company is like a rudderless ship foundering in an ocean of incompetence and mediocrity. What serious airline industry awards have we won lately? (and I don't mean the ones where just one hundred and thirty people were surveyed)

Where there is smoke there is fire and I think it is fair to say if you take the extremist posts out of it, these forums give a sobering account of what is happening here.

I wonder if you are the one out of step.

[GoForIt]

I am an american at EK that enjoys going to work every day, loves the fact that the paycheck does not bounce and is never late, love the fact that my retirement fund will never be terminated, (been there done that) and for the most part get to fly with some really great and professional people. I take great joy every day watching my kids get a great education that is 90% paid for by EK. I smile every day knowing that the clinic is only a phone call away and that it is staffed by great doctors. I love the fact that I am no longer commuting and that the car picks me up and drops me off for every trip.

Did your paycheck ever bounce at USAir? Was it ever late? No, I don't think so.

How much did your kids' education cost in the USA? I think it was free.

Didn't you have health insurance in the USA with USAir? Didn't you have a wide choice of high quality doctors and medical services in the USA?

I understand not missing commuting. But you could have lived in your base in the USA, and it would have been a much smaller adjustment than moving to Dubai. I live in my base (working for a US carrier), and really doubt that having someone drive me to work would be a big improvement to my quality of life. I also work with some very great and professional people. My only retirement fund is my 401K, and that can't be terminated.

You have told us nothing about EK that makes it so wonderful. But if you were furloughed from USAir, then it is better than unemployment. I'm not in that situation, I'll probably turn down the interview.

As an American, it is helpful for me to hear the perspectives of other Americans. This one doesn't encourage me much though.

GoForIt

[330 heavy]

SecurId says: "3330 Man, respect where it is due. Hey everyone, how about 330 Man for SVP Flight Ops?"

I was thinking maybe one level higher?:eek:

330:ok:

[330 Man]

GoForIt,
No the paycheck never did bounce or was late. It was though, in a 6 month period 53% less than it had been. And in October of last year they took another 18% pay cut. In 1994 we were within 1 week from running out of cash (that was from our ceo and wall street) before BA invested 450 million dollars in U. This is a company that in one year lost 1.4 billion dollars. There was never any stability. We had pilots furloughed for 8 years and were recalled only to be furloughed again 3 years later. 3 times in my career I was displaced from the left seat back to the right.
Public education in the states is free and depending on where you live it is good or crap. Where I live is was crap. I was spending $15,000 a year for school.
I was paying $400 a month for health insurance that required me to go only to the "in network" doctors, that were hit or miss. We did have a great family doctor.
You are right I could have lived in base instead of cummuting. Unfortunately in my career at U, I changed bases 12 times, only 4 by choice. The other times I was displaced. How many times do you think I should make my kids change schools and friends? And as soon as I move and get settled, I wiould be displaced again. And yes your 401k can not be terminated, but it may have your company stock in it that is deems worthless in bankruptcy.
I was not furloughed, I resigned.
Here are some good things about EK. I am on the AB so a Boeing comparison would be worthless. I work 12-14 days a month and get 90-95 hours in my top 3 bid months. That is overtime in most months. With the overtime, and tax free, I am now taking home more than my class mates at U and working 5-6 days a month less. Add in the other benefits and I am even more money ahead. Depending on the package adjustment that will take place in May, I may be money ahead of my classmants with no overtime. Ghostflyer makes a very valid point regarding tha package. It is not even coming close to keeping up with inflation. the new joiner of today has about 50% less spending power than those who joined 10 years ago. That is something that EK will eventually have to address. It takes 20+years to upgrade at U and that will be to the 737 as a reserve. Here is is currently 3.5 years on the bus to the 330 and you are on reserve 1 out of 10 months. The route structure is great at EK. I very seldom have to fly a short sector, and am overnighting at some amazing places. I already mentioned the health care and education. I am home so much more now than before, that I am once again nearly a full time dad. I can come home from a trip in the morning, (flying all night is one of the drawbacks at EK by the way) get the kids off to school and then go to bed. We can do almost anything here that we can do in the states except eat at taco bell (there are none), and listen to a country western music station. (those either). My wife does not have to work because of the financial unstability of my job, (first time in 15 years) and she is loving being a full time mom.
Lastly, I think it would be a mistake to turn down the interview,(unless it is for a DEC). You would be making an uneducated decision. Come for the interview, check it, out ask questions, meet other pilots and get their prospective. Then you will have learned enough to decide. I would never make a decistion on reading the posts on pprune. I also have said on other posts that I would never leave a left seat position to come here and that is still true. (unless you are trying to aviod an ex or something)
gj18457:
TP told me to not expect the accelerated command and to plan on 3 years. I did not believe him!
Regards,
330 Man

[Cerberus]

330 Man,

I work 12-14 days a month and get 90-95 hours in my top 3 bid months.

I have no idea which airline you are working for even if you are 330 only. I have not had more than 13 days off in a month as a Captain unless I had leave. I am currently averaging 9.6 days off per month for the last 6. This month my roster includes:

None of the flights that I wanted, none of the days off I requested and a bunch of turn rounds - starts ranging from 2200 to 0400, 2 ULH flights, 1 LH flight, 8 Days Off, all for 100hrs block.

The worst thing is that the rosters are often changed after leaving the computer. I had 3 turnrounds manually inserted during my last top bid month and got called on everyday off to see if I'd work.

I have no problem with you being generally positive, I try to be, but the fact is that if you check out the rosters of your co-workers they suck for 3 months out of 5. Some of the 340 rosters that are flying about at the moment are horrific.

Cerberus

[330 Man]

Cerberus,
I could only respond to GoForIt from my own prospective, not those of my co workers. April is a middle bid month for me and I have 14 off days, 2 rest days,for a total of just over 92 hours. In the top 2 months I will get 2 JFK's and work 12 days. I to did not get anything that were top choices, but I put in so many choices that everything I got I bid even though they were low priority. Remember that this was my middle month and yes I am 340.

Hey Tartan Guy, do not forget you also have 15 miss universe contestants trying to serve you first class meals!

Regards,

330 Man

[harry the cod]

What promised 3% pay rise? Are you referring to our yearly DISCRETIONARY incrument. Please don't ever consider this part of a pay increase cos it ain't! This is something that any half decent Airline gives you automatically as a form of seniority pay. This is your reward for another years hard graft over someone just joining. And as for the 'promised' bit................the clue is in bold above!

Harry

[radnav]

Ain't it just so easy to spot the new sheep in the slaughter yard. Poor "Dears" really just have no idea......YET!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gj18457]

Typhoon.It nice to hear you are so content.The weather line is getting a bit stale. Tell about how nice the weather is next month.I thought you actually had to resign from your previous employer to be able to be employed by EK.So how can someone actually wait out his furlough?I think both you and 330 man have to tell us all where you are getting your happy pills from.
While your at the races put a bet on for me.:}

[turtleneck]

it's actually funny to observe the inconsistency of postings. on one hand ek is treated as passthrough for most carreers, but the same guys scream for unionlike behaviour of those still to join. others bash dec's as scabs and ask for bets how long they themselves will take to leave ek, ..... to enter another outfit as a dec most certainly. postings, mostly positive ones, are ridiculised as "newbee rosies" when it's poster has a entry date a few weeks later than the basher.
ek has become such a disorganised carrier in crewing that it makes absolutely no sense bashing ourselves among oldies, newbees, wannabees and even dec's. the busiest departement is recruitement and it will stay that way as long as his highness keeps his eyes wide shut and leaves the totally incompetent people in place who are responsible for the erosion of the attraction of our package and working conditions.
better turn your focus on that.
ttn

[SecurID]

do not forget you also have 15 miss universe contestants trying to serve you first class meals!


OK, I must retract a little of that respect, 330 Man. I have not seen any Miss Universe contestants for a while. Our tastes are obviously different here.

[GoForIt]

Lastly, I think it would be a mistake to turn down the interview,(unless it is for a DEC).
Regards,
330 Man

330man,

Yes, my interview is for a DEC position. And yes, I have a command in the states at the moment. My company was in deep trouble when I applied, and it looked like I might have to take another job. It has recovered now, but I'm still not as optimistic about the future here as I'd like to be. But for a variety of reasons, I don't think I'll be interested in a DEC position at Emirates. And it isn't because I think it is morally wrong to take that job.

I have been an ALPA member for years, and have worked in both union and non-union airlines. I'll take a unionized airline any day just for the knowledge that my work rules are fixed, even if there were no other benefits. I've even been part of an organization drive to bring a union into a non-union carrier, and I held a union leadership position for a while, but I see both the good and bad sides of the whole union issue. I see them as a necessary evil in the airline industry.

Having said all that, I disagree with your comparison of DECs with scabs. They are not even in the same category. I was a lowly 19 passenger turboprop pilot when Eastern tried to hire scabs. I never considered it for a minute. I would never cross a picket line. But the DEC issue is totally different.

Let me illustrate. If I left aviation, there are a lot of industries where I could walk in to a job that would put me right into management, or at least train me on the fast track to management due to my education and leadership history. Of course, there would be a lot of people at the lower levels with a lot more seniority than me, but they would probably not even think twice about the fact that their company hired someone from the outside for a management job. That is just the way it is done in most industries. The best jobs don't automatically go to the people with the highest seniority. Indeed, the same is true in the airlines. We don't assume that the next Chief pilot will be chosen on seniority. And since we're used to that, we don't cry foul when they choose the chief pilot out of seniority, or maybe even from outside the company.

And when you took the job at Emirates, you knew that you were going to work for a non-union carrier, and you knew that they can do anything they want. There was no guarantee that upgrades would be strictly by seniority. You also knew that unions are not even an option in Dubai, and if you've been around this industry for a while, you also knew that any airline that doesn't have a union has a mysterious way of changing the work rules over time, without asking your opinion. You accepted that. You can't take your American ALPA expectations with you when you go to Emirates. The airline hires DECs. So be it. That doesn't make the guy who took the DEC job a scab or anything like a scab any more than the fact that your old airline moved guys up into management by their own choice, not by seniority. When you choose to step into a job where there is no union and can never be a union, you shouldn't take your union expectations with you.

My company was hiring when USAir was furloughing, and we got some of your guys. Most were great. But I do recall hearing from the trainers that there were a few who couldn't shed the "well we did it this way at USAir" mentality. They were gently instructed that they weren't at USAir any more, and this is the way we do it at brand X. I was told that a couple guys just didn't get it, to the point where they were let go before they got through training. Now of course that does not reflect badly on you or USAir in general. There are a couple bad apples in every bunch. We all know that when you go to a new carrier, you do it their way.

Well, you crossed the ocean to take a job at a non-union airline that hires DECs. There is no reason for you to take the old USAir/ALPA mentality on upgrade by strict seniority with you. The guys who are hired as DECs are not scabs any more than the management people they hire off the street. It is unfortunate that the management has taken that approach, and they will pay for it in the long run. They are out of step with the rest of the world. But that is their choice. And anyone who chooses to take a job with an airline that can never have a union has to accept the realities that go with that. If you want to vent at anybody, your management is the ones you should vent at.

GoForIt

[EKPrisoner]

I think Tartan boy has lost the plot , there is many other packages around that would kill Emirates. Take CX for example, at least they do transition upgrades and pay is 50-70% more.
Sia has similar problems but you can earn the same money as in EK for a lot less work and better layovers.
What is the good of tax free if you only earn half as much thats the same as a 50% tax anyway.
If i was senior enough to hold onto a command in the USA theres no way id go to EK , even if it was a 737-200 command , home is a very big draw card and the further you move from it the harder it will draw you back in.

[Backwater]

e. Remember, EK has never had a major hull loss in it's entire history.....can't say that about 99% of the major airlines in the world. !

TG

Whilst factually correct, if you were to apply James Reason's swiss cheese model to a recent accident in JNB you would see it was the very last nanomillimetre of cheese that stopped the accident from becoming a catastrophic loss. And there have been incidents, actual and rumoured which were hull-losses in-waiting. Eg. Whoop Whoop Pull UP at NBO, Aerobatics during a go-round at DXB and the rumoured two-cadet descent toward K2. (rumoured because no ASR was ever seen).
Your statement is the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this website.

[Des Dimona]

TG,

I hope your course handicap is good, because I would stick to golf if I were you.

Any reasonable argument would include a look under the surface and there is a LOT out there just waiting to happen. And I hope I'm on a day off or preferably with another airline when (not if) it does.

[330 heavy]

GoFoIt says: "And when you took the job at Emirates, you knew that you were going to work for a non-union carrier, and you knew that they can do anything they want. There was no guarantee that upgrades would be strictly by seniority. You also knew that unions are not even an option in Dubai, and if you've been around this industry for a while, you also knew that any airline that doesn't have a union has a mysterious way of changing the work rules over time, without asking your opinion. You accepted that. You can't take your American ALPA expectations with you when you go to Emirates. The airline hires DECs. So be it. That doesn't make the guy who took the DEC job a scab or anything like a scab any more than the fact that your old airline moved guys up into management by their own choice, not by seniority. When you choose to step into a job where there is no union and can never be a union, you shouldn't take your union expectations with you"

You can justify it any way you want but when you leapfrog over qualified and experienced F/Os who were told to expect a command in X number of years, you are a SCAB in my book.:yuk:

The company can do whatever they want---you are correct in saying so---EK is not unionized---applicants can do whatever they want----just because Ek is not unionized does not make it morally right to take the job as a D.E.C.

By the way, Ek has traditionally upgraded from the right seat. Hiring D.E.Cs has not been the norm over the companys' history.

330:ok:

[Dale Hardale]

330 Heavy,

The word "morals" was stricken from the Emirates vocabulary about 3 years ago. :mad:

Keep Recovering.

[uplock]

Hey T.G.

EK has never had a major hull loss in it's entire history.....can't say that about 99% of the major airlines in the world

T.G. you lost the plot trying to score points with the No Hull lost... we all know how series an incident this was.

What's more disturbing is that we as Pilots in EK have to go to an Internet Chat Forum to download the full Accident Report.

Does this not indicate to the thinking person that there is still major room for improvement?

I would not wish a hull loss on any one yet your statement lacks a depth of maturity and an oversight on the past and present climate in EK.

Would be disappointing to know if you hold a Management Position in the corporate structure as your comments are not constructive.

gj18457 your comments about typhoonpilot are miss directed typhoonpilot's postings make interesting reading and do provide a balanced view with out going over the top. So what if he posts on other web boards.

Topical subject but the DEC's are not Scabs. I think the company are shafting well qualified competent FO's all ready here in EK but it's mis directed taking it out on the DEC's that plan to apply or are in the process of applying.

Would these same people complaining about DEC's leave EK as a Captain only to take up a position at another Airline as a First Officer rather than a DEC?

The EK Management on the other hand have handled this subject very poorly and effective communication and dialog that was two way would have helped many understand the situation in more detail.

[Outta Heresoon]

EK has a long history of hiring DEC's. Do your homework.They even had the requirements published on their recrutement web page years ago. It's no secret they have always had the intention to hire DEC's if required, and management determines that requirement not the pilots. I agree that there are fully qualified pilots waiting in the wings for a chance at the left seat and I believe all reasonably qualified F/O's should at least be offered the chance before going outside the company, but remember it's their party here and if you've been in the ME for any length of time you will know how they play "their game". You are strictly a commodity necessary to achieve their goals. They have no moral conviction to you. I do not consider DEC's as scabs. I'm sorry. This is not the unionised company you may think it is.

[whossorrynow]

Uplock

Hard to see how typhoon pilots' attack on his colleagues can be described as balanced. An apology would be more appropriate than his continued defence of the indefensible. He has set himself up as a Godfather figure and appears to take great satisfaction in playing that role.

As mentioned by 330 heavy, DECs have not been the norm in the companys history.

In the early 90s the then Head of Flight Operations (ex BA) went into print stating that he was the last DEC that Emirates would employ, and EK remained non DEC until 2004 and was a better place for it.

As an employer EK was seen to be far closer to Cathay than say Korean. The opposite is now true.

Recent posters on the Middle East forum include a long time EK Captain who is now an F/O with Virgin and another who is looking forward to his command at Dragonair having been there for around 3 years. Both very positive about their move. Several have made the move to Singapore as DECs but no feedback there as yet.

Can't think of anyone who in moving has bypassed a large group of suitably qualified First Officers' as is the case at Emirates.

Year on year, in real terms, we are being paid less for doing more work.
This will not be apparent to the recent joiners, whose issues are more likely to be related to diminishing command prospects, but is very apparent to the 5 year onwards group.

Yet, year on year the company announces increasing profits (no complaints there), but the only tangible benefit to the employees is that presumably our jobs remain secure.

Be aware that the United States position on Iran could remove that security very suddenly and very effectively. Alerts from the embassies, sometimes suggesting removal of families from the area have been an occasional part of life in the Gulf since 1990.


Certainly, 330 man and tartan guy seem very satisfied, but they are very much in the honeymoon period and still carrying baggage from their past, this by their own admission.

Quite surprised at the extreme division of opinions posted here and my sympathies go out to anyone attempting to make a decision about joining EK based on this thread.

At least there is clearly no support for DECs other than from a couple of posters who are already in the left seat and not keen to give it up.

[typhoonpilot]

Hard to see how typhoon pilots' attack on his colleagues can be described as balanced. An apology would be more appropriate than his continued defence of the indefensible. He has set himself up as a Godfather figure and appears to take great satisfaction in playing that role.


I would hardly call my statement on another webboard an attack on my colleagues. It was an observation on the few posters who complain endlessly and/or who have a hidden agenda. ANYBODY who reads the ME forum for anything length of time can clearly see that there are people posting here who need to get a reality check and who fit my description.

I am not the Godfather, that is Gillegan ;) And now, who is attacking who ? I provide information to my friends and fellow pilots from the USA. If that goes against your agenda, that is your problem, not mine.

Misery feeds on itself and seems to take on a life of it's own here. EK is not perfect and never will be. There are many things that are brought up here that are very legitimate complaints. Taken in perspective, however, EK is still a pretty good job and life in Dubai isn't half bad.


Typhoonpilot

[whossorrynow]

Your colleagues, with some obvious exceptions, would disagree with your statement about whether or not they are being attacked, and yes, I am attacking you, but in a gentlemanly way without resort to foul language.

By the way, I wrote 'a Godfather figure', not 'the Godfather'. I am aware that you are not Gillegan, but I wonder if he will appreciate you exposing him on this forum.

Still waiting for an apology.

[Cerberus]

TP,

Everyone has an agenda and few are above board enough to show it. You are right that a lot of crap is written trying to slag EK off, but then again a lot of crap is written trying to defend things.

EK is not Utopia Airlines just as Dubai is not Utopia; neither exist. Anyone from the outside can judge whether or not the package is acceptable to them. 330 Man said 'it depends on your baggage', he was right! Ghostflyer was right that the package has deteriorated.

The only thing that guys on the inside can add is how hard they are worked and how things have changed. The bottom line is that we now work much harder in real terms and get paid much less in real terms than we did even 2 years ago. I am less worried about T&Cs than the work rate. Sadly they both go hand in hand. If EK improved the package they would have to beat off applicants with a sh1tty stick and the work rate would go down.

Interestingly it would put EK where they were 7 years ago, they worked a bit harder than most for less than some but most people were happy. Maybe Utopia did exist but in amongst the traffic fumes and the cost cutting everyone lost sight of it!

Cerberus:zzz:

[fatbus]

whosorrynow,
you mean that there are no FO's at SIA that could upgrade and are not being bypassed by the DEC's from EK

[typhoonpilot]

Your colleagues, with some obvious exceptions, would disagree with your statement about whether or not they are being attacked, and yes, I am attacking you, but in a gentlemanly way without resort to foul language.
By the way, I wrote 'a Godfather figure', not 'the Godfather'. I am aware that you are not Gillegan, but I wonder if he will appreciate you exposing him on this forum.
Still waiting for an apology.

The word I used on the other webboard is an acronym and not even found in the dictionary so I would hardly call it foul language. As I said, it was a descriptor. I will not apologize for it so your wait may be a long one.

The Capo de Capo has given me his blessing and isn't bothered by my "exposing" him. Thanks for your concerns on the familia's business though. :p That isn't to say that he agrees with my posts. In fact, he was the first to comment, critically, on my other posts elsewhere.


TP

[330 Man]

GoForIt,
Very good post! Unfortunately I disagree totaly on the SCAB part. We will have to agree to disagree.

I do want to clear up one thing that you mentioned. I too was an ALPA member for over 20 years. You said "You can't take your American ALPA expectations with you when you go to Emirates." I must tell you in the most forceful way possible that I HAVE NO AMERICAN ALPA EXPECTITATIONS!
ALPA for me was nothing more than a $200 a month magazine subscription. Obviously it was a medical insurance and license protection insurance policy in my back pocket, but I did not have to use either. It was nothing more than political wanabees playing a very dangerous financial game with the future of the other 7000 pilots in my old company. If you do not believe me ask any U pilot how the retirement terminaton, the last paycut, was handled. The only ones who got anything from ALPA were the MEC members who were paid trips missed for union work. One of the most pleasureable days of my career was the day that I stopped giving that corrupt systam any money!

My views are based on what I consider to be right and wrong. I have been in this profession for over 25 years so you can assume that those views are very strong, and that in this case I am too old to change them. Being an American or former ALPA member have nothing to do with it. If you take an upgrade from a well qualified First Officer who is not allowed to upgrade because of economcal reasons, it is wrong and you are a SCAB. I, like you made the same decision regarding picket lines in 1984. I was left seat on a turboprop commuter and intervied at Contenental. They offered me a job and I told them I would take it when the strike was over. For some reason they never did call back. I guess Frank took it personal.

Regards,
330 Man

[Warlock2000]

Hey U all,

You're obviously new "kids" on the block (or management of some sort) and still all bright eyed and bushy tailed! Hell Billy-Bob, them 4 gold bars still been a shinin'.

Happiness that you can see sunlight through all the crap that's being flung at you. Personally, I've been here long enough to remember a very different airline, one where obvious greed wasn't the order of EVERY day, where mutual respect and understanding existed and one where pilots had some sort of a lifesyle.

We actually enjoyed our jobs then and the only people quiting were those going on pension.

Now, get your heads out your ARSES and get with the program, because all I see is your shoelaces sticking out of management backsides!

Oh, by the way.... when I came to EK I already had "international experience" :ok:

[Tail Rota]

Warlock2000

a bit hard on the boys there ...:E but well put....good to hear from someone that really can say how it was. Its never going to be like he good old days warlock unless you have a secret spell you can cast on the ever increasing maddness here.:{

nothing will ever be changed because we are all too busy looking after ourselves........from the cleaners to the top.

I am still an FO and from where I am sitting my left seat looks to be still on track. company resources seem to be the limitations.

TR

[330 Man]

TG,
It has nothing to do with experience or qualifications. I am just as qualified as anyone here including you. I have just as much or more experience as others here, even you. To those coming here as DEC's I will put my experience against them any day, so please do not tell me to "get the experience and the world is my oyster." It is all timing, and only timing. F/O's not able to upgrade because they were hired at a different time and are not allowed to upgrade now because we cannot hire enough F/O's to replace them. So we take the cheap way out hire DEC's and let the F/O's wait. It is wrong, and no matter how much you say otherwise it can not be justified.
Your Chief Pilot example is not valid. Maybe they interviewed for the job and were passed over. Maybe they like doing what they are doing and want to not change positions. Maybe they are not qualified for the VP fleet position. I do not know and the point is neither do you. All I do know is that there are many qualified and experienced F/O's at EK that are not upgrading and that we are hiring DEC's instead.
And like you I choose to be happy every day, as my posts have said. But, I can still be happy and complain about DEC's..I am sure that even you sometimes complain about something and it does not make you an unhappy person. It only makes you human. I love my job, but there is always room for improvment.
Regards,
330 Man

[Saltaire]

The fundamental issue is the divisions created in the company. DEC's, accelerated etc....It's a big win for many DEC's from charter's and other limited prospect airlines. I would not blame them personally, but the policy is a morale killer. On balance, FO's are very qualified and have experience for quick command which inflames the issue. As a supplement to FO's the policy would work, but it seems the focus is to fill the seats without regard to fairness and equality. This applies to the Airbus fleet or course, and it might come to pass with the 380 arrival, but the 330's start to leave next year.

Another real concern is keeping the troops motivated. Working harder is here to stay, but it would be nice to see more benefits. Leave restrictions and other indicators of lack of crew is a problem. The perdiem is below average in most destinations. They need to attract more FO's and keep the chain moving from the bottom. A healthy pay increase is a must with the hyper growth, inflation and dollar weakness. Global opportunites are opening outside North America and competition is good for supply and demand. EK must be mindful of retention and keep the package competitive. Anyone listening ??

[Gillegan]

In the global scheme of things, you get what you are worth and not how long you've been there. TG

Tartan Guy,
You should know better. Worth is a fluid concept at best that means different things to different people. Your worth is established by the market place. Right now, Emirates traditional sources of pilots has dried up (at least for the package they are offering). They have resorted to some non-traditional sources (for EK) with mixed results and are now fishing in the U.S. (we'll see how that works out).

I think what burns A330 Man and others is that EK have used the carrot of the quick command to entice people to come. I understand that even now, potential recruits are being told that it's 3 years to a command. Now while it is true that there are no guarantees, and they have always left open the possibility of DEC's, they have also given guys the wink and the nod (and more) regarding their commands. They know what they are doing and it is not honorable. Some may be willing to let them off the hook because it is a business but personally I call it a lack of integrity. They have moved the goal posts at their whim with little or no regard to the things that people were told to get them to come here. At the time, A330 Man was worth the promise (nod, nod, wink wink) of a quick command. Now they have reneged on that promise.

I personally can't see a continuation of the 3 year upgrades for guys joining now due to the projected growth over the next few years (we are more than half way there) and due to the large numbers of DEC's. There really is no need for the situation that we are in. There is not one airplane that has come this year or that is coming in the next year that we didn't know about 4 years ago. Some people screwed up and now, we have some FO's who are being expected to shoulder the consequences. Personally, I don't know how A330 Man keeps such a good attitude given what he was told.

[whossorrynow]

330 heavy men, scotch fella, typhoon etc, all been in the company 5 minutes. They fly in the face of comment from long time EK crew. Apparently they know it all.

But they dont because it is only the long time guys who have seen the decline of this company. These late arrivals have only seen the later stages of the decline, not what was there before, they compare it only to their decimated industry back in the USA.

They have not considered that the slide is continuing, in 2,3,5 or whatever years they will be just as aggrieved as the present long termers are right now. Unless something is done to reverse the slide.

People pass comment about agendas, but there would be no opinions or debate or discussion or argument or solution or need for a forum if there was no agenda, hidden or otherwise.

My agenda is obvious. I want it to be so. I want this company to return to what it was, on the way to becoming a premier airline. And it is largely the attitudes of the employees that make a company what it is.

If the management were less short sighted they would realise that the real commercial advantage would be to make this the nirvana of airline jobs rather than on the way to becoming the pariah of the industry. At a cost still well short of most, if not all, major carriers outgoings.

In the 90s around thirty S/Os and F/Os left Cathay for Emirates, three went the other way of which one came back to Emirates. Dont think that would happen now.

They could have a long line of quality crew aspiring to join EK, instead of having to travel to the States to seduce a bunch of misplaced hairyassed redneck alphas.

No real offence intended, I do not question their ability to operate an aeroplane, but I do question the judgment shown on this forum by those already here.

A certain satisfaction gained from watching them now starting to argue amongst themselves. The freshmen that is, not you Gillegan.

[330 heavy]

whossorrynow'
Why do you feel the need to attack those who have a different opinion than yours? We all speak about we know. You have been here longer than others and have seen the decline in the package and the overall treatment of employees. I'm sure it is very frustrating! I've seen the EXACT thing in the states so I know where you are coming from. I chose to leave a job that I had been in for over 19 years to come here and am quite happy about the move. Just because the conditions have changed; albeit drastically in the last few years; doesn't make this a bad job. If you or others hate it so much here then find somewhere you can be happy. There is more to life than a blasted job.

I think some guys have no life other than Emirates. If you hate it here so much then so be it. That doesn't mean that we all have to share your pain.

Having said all that, there's nothing wrong with wanting to better our working conditions. If that is your goal then we should be constructive and not belittle those with a different viewpoint. That's called being a gentleman and a professional. The gentlemen that you seem so intent on attacking are all working constructively in the company and trying to do as much as they can to improve conditions here. They like Dubai and Emirates. Good on them! I hope it remains so for them and I hope the conditions at our company will improve. Then maybe all will be somewhat more satisfied.
330:ok:

[4HolerPoler]

This thread was closed by the originator but following requests from some of the members I've opened it again. Things did get a little heated but that's no reason to bin it so carry on with the debate, but try to keep it nice please.

4HP