BFJT

[andysmojo]

Can anyone enlighten me on how long BFJT is and how long the ACM phase of the course lasts.
Regards
andysmojo
:ok:

[LateArmLive]

Unless it's changed mahoosively in the last few years there's no ACM at Linton. You may be thinking of AFJT at Valley on 19(F) where the phase is about 15 trips long.

[andysmojo]

thanks,
what about BFJT?
andy

[ceecl2]

Dont have my log book on me but I think BFJT is around 120Hrs with quite a few sims.

No ACM or BFM, although when I left they were thinking about changing parts of the syllabus, but I dont think they will put in ACM or BFM before 208 Sqn.

Syllabus includes a big GH package. Within this package you will be doing different levels of IF; Basic Instrument Flying Certificate (BIFC) and Advanced (AIFC). I think formation was then next followed by Nav (the course normally goes to a different base, such as Lossie, to do one of these sections (Nav Det). The work up for your Instrument Rating then comes along followed by LL fighting wing and composite sorties to finish off the course. Night flying is carried out somewhere during the course.

Dont focus too much on the streaming which is now part of it!

Enjoy the course. York is also a great night out!

Claw

[andysmojo]

Magic,
So in terms of weeks...30? 40?
Andy

[Bob Viking]

Andy
It's sad that I still remember these things but I believe the course entitlement is 130 hours with about 38 hours of pure joy in the stimulator.
We started in June and finished the following May. It is a very long course and can wear you down a bit. The biggest problem when I was there was that the build up to FNT (Final Nav Test) was huge and the relief was enormous. Then you had to build yourself back up for the last 12/13 trips for FHT!
It is the longest course you will do and to a certain extent the hardest but you really start to feel like a military pilot by the end of it.
Good luck. Feel free to ask away with any more. I'm feeling very benevolent today!
BV:ok:

[andysmojo]

How many courses at year at Linton? Many females?
andy

[Bob Viking]

Andy
Your questions are starting to get a bit weird, but we'll go with it for now!
Used to be about 6 courses a year but you might want to wait for a more up to date answer than mine. As for girls, there was one on every other course when I was there. I'd say thats probably a pretty representative ratio.
Your turn to answer some questions.
Have you been streamed yet?
Are you hoping there'll be someone on your course that you can get easy horizontal action from?
Are you female?
Are you scared?
BV:hmm:

[andysmojo]

I'm not a pilot, I am ex airman aircrew ( AEOp - left in 2003) now a student physiotherapist writing a dissertation on neck injury in RAF aircrew. Trying to implement a exercise and education program during BFJT at Linton before AFJT at Valley.
I'm a successful desktop pilot with 10000 hrs on 747 400 if that helps?
:ok:
Andy

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Oh god... not the neck strength thing again! hehe doesnt this all go in cycles! Anyhow, andy, hopefully this can be a definitive answer for you:

Cse duration is approx 10 months (depending on xmas, easter etc etc) and contains 120hrs instructional flying (+10% flex... for some of us who are special;)). The course starts with a conversion to tucano, which contains basic GH, basic IF and circuits and bumps. Then follows a period of more advanced gh, if and a bit of nav with BHT after 50 odd hours (don't hold me to that, I'm going grey!) Following BHT you get advanced IF leading to an amber IR (not exactly G-taxing if thats what you're after!), close formation (including tail chasing), low level nav (including the 2 week nav det as mentioned before), GH for currency and that ends in FNT after around 100 hours. After that the run up to the end of course is mostly pairs formation, fighting wing, tail chasing and all the good fun.

As for women, as mentioned earlier, roughly one every other course at the moment, who, for some reason, all end up on 207;) something dodgy going on there folks!

As for an exercise regime... forget the neck, a big issue that the studes comment on is G fitness/resisting G-loc....

[Stuff]

I've got to agree with pba_target. Not the neck thing again! We had that 4 years ago.

If the lightweight helmet was issued after 208 there wouldn't be a snag but you only get one at the OCU (at least that was the situation 4 years ago and I doubt anything much has changed). You could get one early with a medical chit but that was about it. The reason quoted was limited supply.

I've still yet to work out how the supply can cope with OCU studes and not 19 Sqn. They are the same people (eventually)!

As regards the dissertation, good luck with it but it's all old ground and the recommendations have already been made. I assume you have read the old report. Are you going for a whole different perspective?

[andysmojo]

Yeah different approach. Research suggests nothing is implemented to students i.e. neck specific exercise and education. Last paper on RAF was by Green (2004) who used more 'experienced' boys (38 yrs old) with considerable flying hrs under their belt which highleghted significant neck injury +Gz related.
I want to introduce a program to coicide with BFJT i.e. before any significant +Gz is experienced...:ok:

[Stuff]

Hmm, sounds suspiciously like the same thing to me.

Have a chat with the PEdOs at Linton and Valley. They introduced the gym on 19 Sqn and a host of briefs and exercises at Linton just for that very reason.

FYI I was 189 BFJT and number 8? ATTU I think... (bob_viking help me out here?) Those predate the 2004 study so theye must have been something that prompted the changes made between 188 and 189 BFJT.

[VigilantPilot]

The only neck specific sorties would be those that included tailchase - in particular leading during reversals or following while MRTing. Apart from that, I don't think there is anything that would be useful for Linton studes until they get to Valley.

That starts around trip 60-something for about 8 trips during basic formation then again at the end of the course when learning how to lead during composite sorties - again approximately 8-10 trips.

[andysmojo]

Thanks,
wanted to hit Valley running though i.e. students educated and neck trained to the max before the Hawk experience where most neck complaints occur.
Thanks for your input everyone. What kind of +gz are you reaching in the Tucanno?
andy

[BluntM8]

Typically, about 5.5 Gz as I recall. Max poss's are a bit higher I think but I got chopped before I'd done that.

The course is 113 trips, totaling 124.05 (plus flex, everyone gets it...)

You get sized for a lightweight helmet at Henlow pre-linton but you wear the old mk 4 on the course. Dunno why?

I guess another issue is the greater exposure (to Gz) experienced by QFIs?
(care to comment, anyone?)

HTH.

BluntM8

[VigilantPilot]

a/c limit 6g.
Max you'd pull on a MRT is about 5.5g and sustain. In my experience, this isn't such a problem on the neck. The biggest problem is craning it round under g during the tailchase - particularly from the front seat. Or the other killer is if the other guy has control and you turn your head as the direction reverses.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Well max Gz in the tuc is 6, with 5.5 the training limit if I'm not mistaken, so 5.5 is a reasonable expectation, and this can be sustained especially in MRT sorties. The simple solution is: lightweight helmets! you have to buy them eventually, so why not go ugly early? The chop rate isnt that high and those chopped could always give them back... surely a case for having them on 208/19!

[VigilantPilot]

Too slow pba. :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

lol why arent you in the bar? I have an excuse, im getting my boiler fixed!

[andysmojo]

Last one I promise,
How long would the 5.5 +Gz be sustained???
Andy

[BEagle]

That's no way to talk about your wife, pba_tgt!

If you want to develop your neck muscles, try a few sit-ups with some little lady perched prettily on your face!

Back in JP/Gnat/Hunter days, the leaden weight of the infamous Mk 2 bonedome didn't seem too much of a problem under +6 G (or even +8G once....oops!). Nor did the Mk 3A when I was on the Hawk. Even doing those painful +7 G extend and pitch back things...:{

In any case, just make sure that your in someone else's 6 rather than the other way round and the problem should be rather less!

[Grand Fromage]

I have heard the reason for Mk4 being worn in the Tucano is because the Mk10 is not yet cleared to penetrate tehe LCC in the front. Andy, all BFJT students now attend Gz tolerance centrifuge training to minimise risk of injury etc.

[Time Flies]

I have heard the reason for Mk4 being worn in the Tucano is because the Mk10 is not yet cleared to penetrate tehe LCC in the front

The reason the Mk 4 is still used at Linton is purely financial! :*

The Mk 10 should be issued from the outset...never mind the cost.

How long would the 5.5 +Gz be sustained???

Usually more could than would with the lanky fellas coming through today. ;)

Typically about 15-40 seconds depending on G threshold and how the QFI feels.

[Neeps]

The reason the Mk 4 is still used at Linton is purely financial! :*
The Mk 10 should be issued from the outset...never mind the cost.


Not sure about that; ex fast jet QFIs with perfectly serviceable Mk10s are still given Mk4s to wear. It's probably the LCC; I imagine when it entered service the Mk4 was the best we had, and no-one's bothered to have the Mk10 approved for use with LCC.

Of course, that doesn't explain why an ex fast jet QFI can't wear his Mk10 in the back seat where he has MDC? Maybe it'd be too much hassle for the squippers to service two helmets per pilot?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Neeps, the actual reason (no duff, though can't remember which reliable source I found it out from, someone at henlow I do believe) is that every item of AEA has to be cleared for the aircraft in which it is intended to be used. So for instance your funky flappy kneeboard gizzas have to be cleared to ensure they don't interfere with the stick/throttle etc etc etc. In the case of a helmet this entails doing ejection trials to ensure that the helmet can withstand the forces involved whilst using that seat (note the Tuc is the only one without a rocket seat iirc (canberra anyone?)), through that canopy from that aircraft. The simple fact of the matter is no one can be arsed to pay to trial the 10 as when they carried out the early tests (required anyway) there were only 4's available.

Fromage: Is it every course? I heard on the vine of one course doing it but heard it was a one off trial with a view to mfts etc etc?

[BluntM8]

Mk4 was the best we had,

I'd say least-worst...

Of course, that doesn't explain why an ex fast jet QFI can't wear his Mk10 in the back seat where he has MDC? Maybe it'd be too much hassle for the squippers to service two helmets per pilot?

They'd still not have enough bags when you're off to the sim ;)

(Hello to you and him, will we see you soon? And, what did they say?)

T

[Grand Fromage]

Pba,

Yes mate, it happens the friday of the AMTW week at Henlow

[PPRuNeUser0211]

No way, does that mean you have to stay a full week at henlow now? Rather than bunking off for half the week? Shocker...

[Grand Fromage]

Afraid so :cool:

[Elmlea]

Neeps, the actual reason (no duff, though can't remember which reliable source I found it out from, someone at henlow I do believe) is that every item of AEA has to be cleared for the aircraft in which it is intended to be used.

Nearly right; the actual actual reason is that the LCC fracture system in the front seat produces canopy fragments too large for the Mk10 helmet. It's in AP109B and phrased quite carefully to stop you wearing your Mk10 in the back.