Small Business Aircraft 6 seat - Best Choice?

[dllcooper]

Following on from previous post - for flying business passengers around UK and occasional European trip - 6 passenger capacity what choices would people make on suibtable aircraft model. It must be versatile and not too limited on speed or altitude.

Another priority is that it must be a widely used type and model so that my experience and hours can be easily transferable.

Previously we were looking at the Cessna 421. This has really been discounted now due to wingspar problems, speed and engine restrictions.

I have been looking at the King Air series but i think it is too far over our requirements in terms of size and space. The Piper Cheyenne II looks suibtable?

[J32/41]

It all depends on price, whats the budget?

PA 31 Navajo/Chieften
Cessna 404
Kingair 200
Kingair C90
Pilatus PC-12
Cessna Caravan

[dllcooper]

Not sure exactly on what budget we have available yet, depends on what syndicate we can put together.

We must find something with minimal depreciation. Keeping all options open at the moment. Realistically 500,000 is the absolute maximum.

[Daifly]

Forget anything after Beech 200 in the above list then.

[J32/41]

Forget anything after Beech 200 in the above list then.

I'm sure you can get a C90 for less than 500,000.
Click below
http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/list.asp?catid=8&man=BEECH%2FRAYTHEON&mdlgrp=KING+AIR+C90&PG=3&guid=D5C9740873CD4B818995FEDEDE198383

[hawkerjet]

The best bang for your buck( or should I say pound) would be either a metro or a Merlin III. Economical, large cabin and good range and not too thirsty Garrett TPE 331 engines. That would be my choice.

[onya]

Cessna conquest I or II. Turbo Commander. :ok:

[His dudeness]

dllcooper,
what do you mean by: Another priority is that it must be a widely used type and model so that my experience and hours can be easily transferable. ?

Transferable experience? You wanna switch to another employer afterwards ?
If so, the Beech should be your first choice, the classrating is for the 90´s (including F90), 99, 100, and 200. The Cheyenne, especially the II is NOT an beginners aeroplane - the 90 is much easier to handle and systemwise the better aeroplane. Spares are not a problem on the KA, the Cheyenne is out of production for a long time now and might get a problem in that respect.(havent operated Cheyennes since 1991 and thus can speculate only). The Conquest I is a very good airplane, does a lot for the money and is roomy inside (basically a 421 with Turboprops) And its very quiet inside if I remember correctly (flew in one 92-93ish). I this class of aeroplane, the maintenance is really important - if you have a shop on your airfield that knows the choosen type very well, that could save you a fortune especially when operating elder airframes as you would. Whatever you go for, make sure that you have a torough pre-purchase inspection done by an independent, well established shop. DON´T SAVE ON THAT ONE! Do at least a boroscope inspection of the engines - those will KILL you when in bad shape.(at least financially) Only take an airplane that is up to date in respect of Service Bulletins. Avionics get more and more important (mode-S, for example) Make sure, the aircraft in question is updated or updatable. get something in writing from the prepurchase avionics departement.
And finally, put a simulator training on your budget.

[CorpoRat]

Not sure exactly on what budget we have available yet, depends on what syndicate we can put together.

We must find something with minimal depreciation. Keeping all options open at the moment. Realistically 500,000 is the absolute maximum.
If its £500,000 look at the CE500, cheap to run and maintain, speed would please you, easy to fly and very safe. You will never look back.

[J32/41]

Jetstream 31/32 could be another option.

[dllcooper]

I will endeavour to get fixed and running costs analysis for all of those models.

Best regards - David

[Kulwin Park]

Personally, I would be researching into some of the new technology aircraft, so that you aren't left behind in the coming future. GA will expand fast as new means arise to get small business associates to locations quickly. I can see it happening from where I work.

With new aircraft, I refer to the likes of ADAMS Aircraft & ECLIPSE Aviation with their VLJ's (Very Light Jets). Visit their websites and you'll be surprised at just how good most of these are. They might be past your $ budget, but are very affordable with the low running costs. Most clients don't need this fancy wank crap, and luxury aircraft systems which they rarely utilise on a short haul flight.

Maybe just too keen to see someone actually be the guinea pig and purchase something new....

[J32/41]

Personally, I would be researching into some of the new technology aircraft, so that you aren't left behind in the coming future. GA will expand fast as new means arise to get small business associates to locations quickly. I can see it happening from where I work.

With new aircraft, I refer to the likes of ADAMS Aircraft & ECLIPSE Aviation with their VLJ's (Very Light Jets). Visit their websites and you'll be surprised at just how good most of these are. They might be past your $ budget, but are very affordable with the low running costs. Most clients don't need this fancy wank crap, and luxury aircraft systems which they rarely utilise on a short haul flight.

Maybe just too keen to see someone actually be the guinea pig and purchase something new....

I agree with the above, maybe if you could lease an Eclipse 500 you might be better off in the long run.

[dllcooper]

Just had a look at the Eclipse 500. Very intersting reading that and i will certainly look into some financing options and see how it comes out. The maintenance seems minimal.

Its the future!!

[J32/41]

Have a look here http://www.adamaircraft.com/home.asp they do both a turboprop and jet version.

[READY MESSAGE]

Don't discount the C421 on the basis of the wing spar SID. It makes for a very good bargaining tool when negotiating the purchase price. The mandatory inspection is very expensive in the UK but there are other JAR approved maintenance organisations in Europe that can carry it out for a fraction of the price. I'll happily let you have the details if you want them.

It's certainly a better aircraft than Navajo/Chieften, a cabin that's a lot quieter than a King Air cabin and when you do need to replace the engines - alot cheaper than the King Air donkeys. And when the diesel engines are approved, well......

[flyboyike]

Don't discount the C421 on the basis of the wing spar SID.


Especially since it doesn't apply to all C421s, at least not here in the States.

[Phil Brockwell]

Is the 500K to set up the operation or for the aircraft alone. My suggestion. Offer an existing operator 500K worth of flying in return for a job when you have qualified.



Phil

[HyFlyer]

You'll have to wait a while, but in the VLJ and slightly larger class the new aircraft by Embraer is neck and shoulders ahead in almost all areas.

You have a CJ1 sized cabin and even more baggage space, single pilot operation. Range about 1,200nm and 41kt foot ceiling with Mach 0.78 cruise.
Price is below$3million new, but first deliveries are only looking to be in 2009.
Operating costs seem really low as well, and if it is anything like the ERJ's then reliability is a given........

The point that this is a little above the budget may be offset that the depreciation on this 'real' jet is likely to be quite low, as availability after issue due to quite long orderbook is going to keep prices high. Equally to offset the higher cost it could be effectively chartered when you are not using it....this income could offset the higher costs.


If you can't wait until 2009, then a used CJ1 may be a good option, or even a share with European Business Jets near Cambrdige (see the thread near this one, today).

Eclipse is a great option if you are a dwarf (OOps person of vertically challenged disposition :-)) !!!!!!

Adams...... Hmm...... The Sinclair car of the Sky....looked down upon by even 'Smart' drivers. Don't do it.....

Your original enquiry suggested that such million $ deals were out of budget.....

For 6 pax, gotta go with a KingAir if you want to transfer the hours and experience. the cabin is great in a C90, with 6 pax and baggage it's the one to go for.

[Send Clowns]

And which operator would you suggest, Phil? ;)

[Phil Brockwell]

I have no idea of routes etc, but suspect if a Kingair is in the frame, it's probably not too many hours positioning from...lets say um...Bristol. Anyone closer to BOH with a Kingair than Bristol?

Answers on a postcard......

Yeah yeah, I know

Phil

[OFBSLF]

You'll have to wait a while, but in the VLJ and slightly larger class the new aircraft by Embraer is neck and shoulders ahead in almost all areas.What do you think of the Sino-Swearingen? How does it compare with the Eclipse, Adam, and Cessna Mustang?

[aztruck]

Who said 421 with diesels? When and where? There are plenty of lowish time airframes and personally I like the B model more than the C. Rumours about the trailing link u/c causing more stress by cushioning bad landings and hammering the attachment points underwing. How true I dont know but it came from a very experienced 421/441 engineer.
A diesel 421 would be superb. It is as fast as a King air and so much quieter in the cabin. There is also loads more baggage space in the nose/wing lockers than a king air.
Mind you, if a 375 horse diesel appears, why not a brand new composite euro 421 for half the cost of a vlj? Somebody must be on a drawing board somewhere dreaming one up.
Incidentally, isnt there a mod for the Beech Duke remanufactured with diesels? The Duke is a beauty, only let down by its thirsty donkeys.

[Phil Brockwell]

Is it a coincidence that all the best aircraft don't actually exist anywhere other than the drawing board or outside the confines of EASA approval.

David wants a plane he and some buddies can use and get some residual income from by chartering it out.

[FLEXJET]

Incidentally, isnt there a mod for the Beech Duke remanufactured with diesels? The Duke is a beauty, only let down by its thirsty donkeys.

I agree, the Duke looks good on the ramp !
There are modifications of course, such a nice aircraft could not be left without any enhancement.
Read this:
http://www.aero-news.net/SpecialContent.cfm?ContentBlockID=16d03690-7b96-4007-b0c5-40f291340ac4&cat=17
Up to 6000 ft/min climb rate...

or this:
http://www.dukeb60.de/News.htm


I want one !