Debenair Aviation Florida

[BIG MISTER]

HELLO GUYS AND GIRLS !

I'M THINKING OF DOING SOME HOURS BUILDING AT DEBENAIR AVIATION - TITUSVILLE FLORIDA USA.

HAS ANYONE BEEN THERE ?

GOT ANY TIPS / DO'S AND DONTS ?

THANKS - BIG MR ;0)

[Bear Cub]

Yep...I've been there.

Tell you what...you tell me WHY you are considering going to do your hour building at debenair and I'll tell you what I have (personally) seen there.

------------------
Hunting is bad!!
Support the right to arm Bears!!

[D-Wolf]

Havent been there, but im going to the states this summer to go from 0 hours to a CPL at Phil Air in Daytona beach Florida.

[JimNich]

BM,

Also can't help you with Titusville but I am hoping to do my JAR CPL this June at International Flight Training at Melbourne Int'l which is just down the road. (anyone been there?).

[calypso]

Hello there,

I am thinking of going to Debenair in Florida for some serious hour building in september. Has anybody been there or know how is the operation run? Any coments/advice kindly apreciated.

Regrds

Calypso

[Manflex55]

Hmmm, dunno this one, though I know most of FL schools. Where are they based ? What do they offer ? What do they fly ?

MF

[TRANQUILLO]

I know where they are because I have done some training close to them....
They are very close to Cape Canaveral and they are in controlled airspace (eastcoast of Florida)at TITUSVILLE airport.
I have landed there once and it looked nice .
I don't know about the FTO at all !!!
If you go there the flying it's good fun for hours building !!! If you go let me know as I am planning to go there in few months to do some hours too.
I think you are looking to the 100hours package for $39 hour....
Let me know and have fun if you go!! ;)

[BIG BLACK RAT]

Yep.....Ive been there !

The operation is run by a husband and wife team (Bill and Annette)from the North of England so you can exspect a friendly welcome and a 'spades a spade' way of doing business.

The flying very good value for money with block hours bookings cheaper than anywhere else I've ever found.

What brings the prices up is traveling costs. The company houses are a good few miles away and a car / lift is required.

Then you have the cost of the houses which are nice and quite cheap...but its another cost to add on.

Headphones...$5 a day...not much but how long are you going for ?

Finally theres the 100LL. If your not going to fill up at Space Coast then your only going to get back approx 60-70% of your fuel money!

Apart from that ( and there are pros and cons with ALL schools that Ive had dealing with ) its not a bad set up.

Make sure you book your name down for an aircraft everyday....and maybe a few days in advance too otherwise you could be out of luck !

Get there nice an early and do your checks. These aircraft are good but their also old and need careful checking. Most things can be fixed quite quickly as the tyre kickers live in the hanger next door and if not you should be able to pick up another a/c.

My advice would be to get a nice cheap fly-drive deal maybe with Airtours into Sanford. Stay at the company houses and cook yourself or with the others in the house(good kitchens...Bloomin great Walmart down the road).

Visit a Deli on the way in and buy a monster sub ($5 or make your own) with a couple of cold drinks. This will do for breakfast and dinner and save on exspensive airports food if you stop somewhere.There is no canteen at Space coast on your side of the airport !

Fly as much 'local' stuff as you can (only to keep costs down) and try and blag the extended rage C152 if you can (40 gallon tanks I seem to remember)so that you can spread your wings further afield.

Space coast airport is great with massive runways and mostly helpful A.T.C. They should have moved into a brand new Tower by now so the aircon should work better too!

Titusville town is a bit zzzzzzzzzz. Ok your there to fly but everyone needs some R&R too sometimes. The Red Lion 'English' Pub is quite a giggle and only a short walk away from some of the houses. They serve 'Bitter' which is nice when your fed up with Bud !

Have fun....and dont forget to visit places like Key West (exspensive) and the likes while your out there. NASA is only 5 miles down the road and ask for a fly-by of the shuttle landing area...maybe you will get to see a lauch while your out there too ! ! !

The bottom line....Would I go again ???

YES !

Cheers


;)

[Bloody long way down]

Calypso,

I might just see you out there! I made arrangements with them a few weeks back and so far they have been extremely helpful with giving me as much info as possible. and from the previous post it sounds as though its gonna be a great time.

When planning these things you can never be sure of what you are going to get, so its nice to hear good reports.

Have Fun :D :cool: :cool: :D

[Viking 1]

I've been there too in 1999. They then run alongside Discovery aviation but I think they've moved now across the field. Bill and Annette - really nice people and as said above accomodation is excellent. Busy airfield but it is good to learn in the heavy traffic. A brillant spot to fly from plenty of places to go to, try a trip to Cedar Key on the West coast-a woman who runs the taxi into town anwsers the radio, its quite entertaining.

[BIG BLACK RAT]

Oh one other thing....their not JAA approved yet (as far as I'm aware) but they are working on it !

;)

[calypso]

Thankyou for all the replies.

It looks like it is a nice place and it is certainly cheap. I have spoken to Annette a couple of times and she seems helpful. I have booked the IFR extended range 152 for 100hrs.

I will post about the place on my return.

Calypso

[XENON]

I am planning on visiting Debenair for the month of December to build 100 hrs for 39 dollars per hour wet.
Is anyone else planning on doing the same and if so perhaps you can drop me a line ?
Dont think I will find better value than that.

[EGDR]

Don't no much about Denbenair but Titusville aka Space Coast Regional is a top airfield.

Excellent place to watch a space shuttle launch from, plus there is an old fighter musuem on the field.But I loved the Outer Marker Cafe - by far the best airfield cafe in Florida - top burgers & shakes !!!

[floppyjock]

EGDR
I agree the cafe is great. The shuttle lifted off at 0615hrs when I was there. Rattled the house like an earthquake I didnt know what was happening. Still half asleep after getting in at 0330hrs after 6 hours night nav round Florida.
Floppy

[calypso]

I was there last month and did 200hrs. It is a good place and I recomend it. My target was 200hrs in one month and this I managed to achieve despite Sep 11. I was lucky in that I have an IR (all VFR was closed for over 2 weeks) but it was flying flat out every day. The school is well run and they try to adapt to your needs. The aircraft are not new but they do get maintained and offer unbeatable vaue.

Florida ATC is superb and a breath of fresh air. They are very acomodating and very rarely get ruffled despite getting really busy. I only wish that where I fly normally they where half as professional or aware that they are there to help. On my first day over there I requested politely to do a simulated IFR approach to a busy airport, the response: 'we are here to help sir' Wow!

I also did an extended X-country trip (to Vegas) and that great fun. You do not get 100% of your fuel cost back but you can research a cheap fuel route through airnav.com. Paying for part of the fuel will also sharpen your efficient flying skills and get you to study all those altitude wind charts.... I also kept costs down by camping in small airfields. Permission is usually granted. On Sep 18th I did however run into an 8 car FBI team one remarcable night in a small strip in Alabama, but that is a different story.

Enjoy.

Calypso

[Romeo Mike]

Am trying to decide where to go for hours building. Has anyone been to debenair recently? Why is it so much cheaper? Any help appreciated.

[SkyCruiser]

Its simple, you get what you pay for. When I was out there a couple of years ago there were a few nasty stories about this outfit, I would stay away myself.

[Quarternion.]

Well I was out there two months ago and couldn't fault the place, when I went flying at the weekends.

I went there on recommendation. I know of 5 other fellow UK Instructors who go back to the place to hour build or tour. The planes may not be brand new, but they are well mainted and safe. If you have those things in mind then only price and weather determines choice after that in the US. Florida is excellent.

Beware, I certainly wouldn't take advice based on two years ago, especially if the advice is not specific - things change in 6 months in aviation as we all know.

Debenair also offers refunds.

I'm nothing to do with Debenair, but I always believe in recomending a good deal. I'm sure plenty will respond in support.

[Max Drift]

I am considering this place for some hour building early on in the New Year.

I would appreciate peoples experiences, good or bad, of the place.

Cheers.

[Kefuddle_UK]

Didn't Debenair (Debonair??) go bust a while back. The same one featured on that BAe 146 cockpit vid?

[GoneWest]

No - DeBenair - is an FAA flying school in Titusville, Florida.

Max - you'll be OK.

Nice school - nice airfield.

Suggest you apply to US Embassy for a B2 visa before you go.

[EPLS]

Very clean aircrafts run by a nice couple who will look after you if needed and have accommodation available at a good rate. I spent 2 weeks hour building back in 2000. the c150 was nice and cheap.
Many of my friends have used Debonair and all have been pleased with both aircrafts and availability
Dont go anywhere else:)

[blueb0y79]

Hi to all

Has anybody flown at Debenair in Titusville recently ?
Are they any good ?
What are the aircraft like ?
Are the to be trusted with their block rates ?
What is the accomodation like ?

Any info is much appreciated.

Thanks

[BIG MISTER]

I was there for a month and 100 hrs in 2001

Not bad at all......Drop me a PM for further info !

:}

[Watchoutbelow]

Debonair,

Good school, good prices, good maintenence, good friendly instruction. But Titusville, now thats a different story all together.
If you plan on going there start growing a Mullet now and learn all the words to Achey Breaky heart!

[BIG MISTER]

W O B

You couldnt be more right about both the school and the location !

We got on well with some of the lasses in the local bar and ended up going out with them in search of a 'night club'.

When we arrived there was the normal big guys on the door ( smaller than me !!!!) and the sound of 1000w or so of music in the back ground......all was looking good.....

Inside we found that we were the only ones sporting a crew cut and trousers. Most were as already described making do with a mullett , shorts and t-shirts........oh and then there was the line dancing ! ! ! ......no no.....I ready do mean it ! ! !

But what can I say.....there was no trouble....the people were extra friendly...the beer was extra cold and we had a great time !


:ok:

[727Man]

Anyone been to, or going in Sept/Oct to Debenair@ Titusville Fl?
Any viewpoints or comments appreciated!
727man

[LD Max]

I just posted you a LONG reply, telling you how good Debenair is, giving you tips on the best places to eat, and details on car hire etc. Unfortunately PPrune logged me out and lost the thread after I posted it - and its now disappeared.

I'll reply again, more fully later - but suffice to Say Debenair is EXCELLENT. Just spent 7 weeks out there and had a great time, and came away a lot better for it!

Regards,

LD Max

[TIMTS]

I work next door to Debenair, and I have done some flying there. My impression is that it is a good place to train, with some good and motivated instructors. It does, however, fly a fleet of rather old and some might say beat-up planes. They do their best to keep 'em flying, but the planes are not exactly the best looking bunch around. The airport itself is VERY good for training. It is towered, has instrument approaches, is fairly busy (makes for good training) and it is under constant improvement. They just finished repaving some of the taxiways, and the main runway was repaved a few years ago. A new terminal building is also planned.

Titusville itself is nothing to long for. It is a smallish place with almost no social life apart from a couple of bars. It is pretty close to Orlando, Cocoa and Daytona, so the possibilities are many.

Hope this helps. Fly safe

[LD Max]

I was at Debenair for 7 weeks. Just returned to the UK LAST Friday (22nd August).

I'm assuming you're UK based yourself, but if not - forgive any redundant information whcih follows. Based at Titusville, Florida, the field, (KTIX), is called "Space Coast Regional", also known locally by the affectionate name of "TICO Field" (pronounced TYCO), from it's original military days.

Data on KTIX is available at:

Titusville / Coca Airport Authority (http://www.flairport.com/home.htm) and

KTIX (http://www.gcr1.com/5010web/main.cfm?Site=TIX)

I couldn't recommend Debenair highly enough. It is a small FAA approved school, just recently achieved M1 visa status from the America INS, so they can now sponsor M1 training visas. Their website is: Debenair (http://www.debenair.com)

Debenair is suitable for any pilots wishing to "hourbuild" or train for their FAA PPL / CPL / ATP licences, or go for an FAA Complex, Twin or Instrument rating. Note that Debenair are NOT JAA approved, although JAA pilots wanting to hourbuild or attain FAA ratings and qualifications are not hampered by this. It just means that you cannot train for a JAA licence or rating at this school, although there are JAA approved schools nearby where you could combine some FAA training at Debenair, with JAA training elsewhere.

This is, in fact, what I did, by doing my FAA CPL at Debenair, and then doing a conversion course for the JAA CPL at Delta Academy at Sanford (which is about an hour's drive from Titusville).

To fly in the USA, (anywhere for any purpose), all foreign licence holders MUST now apply in advance to the FAA at Oklahoma to convert their licence. You will be asked to nominate an FAA FSDO (Flight Standards District Office), local to you, which you may attend (by appointment) to convert your foreign license, or have them send an FAA inspector out to the School.

The nearest one for Debenair is Orlando FSDO (http://www2.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/)

After going through the processing (which takes about 3 weeks) you will get a letter from the FAA in Oklahoma confirming the details on your JAA licence and your medical (as supplied by the CAA). You must take this letter with you to your nominated FSDO, (or show it to their FAA inspector if you chose for him to visit you at the school). The letter is valid for, (I think), about 3 months from the date of issue.

The FAA Application Form is here:

Verify (http://registry.faa.gov/docs/verify61-75.pdf)

You will also need to authorise the CAA to release your licence details to the FAA: (and pay them a fee of £15.00!)

FORM SRG1160 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1160Iss2.pdf)

For further information see:

http://registry.faa.gov/airmen.asp

...and click on the corresponding link (or scroll down) to "Verification of Authenticity of Foreign License, Rating, and Medical Certification"

Also the CAA Website:

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/whatsnew.asp

... and scroll down to the last paragraph, "Intending to Fly in the USA".

------------------------------------------

Anyway, back to Debenair....

It has a good fleet of well maintained planes. Several C-152s, (including at least 1 with an airways fit, and 1 with LR tanks), a C-172, 2 x Warrior PA28-161s, a Cherokee PA28-140, an Arrow PA28R-200 and a Geronimo Twin PA23-180. Most of them are getting on a bit, but far from "worn out", and all are very much flyable if you don't mind slightly tired seats. I have seen a LOT worse than these, and although you can find newer, tidier aircraft around - I guarantee you won't find anything as good value for money!

The avionics are similarly a bit old, but apart from most of the 152s, which just have 1 RT box, the rest of the fleet is airways capable - many, (to my surprise), with a modern version of Loran C which works just like an RNAV. I think there is at least 1 plane with GPS also, but never flew it myself.

Debenair have their own maintenance facility on site. There's a British, "Essex", chap called Ian, who conducts most of the maintenance and being a pilot himself, he can respond quickly, (in many cases instantly), to most of the common types of "squawks", like an oleo needs a bit of gas or something rattles. Unlike some other schools who fob you off if you're not happy with anything, Debenair will quite happily go out of their way to make things to your liking.

It is owned by a British lady called "Annette Benson", who continues to run the school since her late husband passed away last year. She is an absolute "sweetheart" and is like a 2nd "mum" to all her residential guests. She is supported by a dedicated team including "LouElla" who works the mornings on Reception - and who is equally keen to make you feel at home. The instructors are ALL very experienced, and I would like to pass my personal thanks to good ol' George Ellis and Mike Terwilliger, who got me through the FAA CPL - despite my erstwhile attempts to do exactly the opposite of what they were trying to teach me!

Debenair shares many facilities with Gateway Aviation, (which is a JAA approved Helicopter School next door). They share the maintenance hanger, Vending machines and toilets, and the Gateway Reception is where you can find the Weather Terminals and even Hire a Car.

On the subject of Car Hire - I would definately recommend you get one, because Titusville itself is a bit devoid of nightlife. After the first week, you will definately be up for something to do, and if you are there for 8 weeks, you might also want to do some sight-seeing. Also, KTIX is three miles or so from the apartment, so unless you want to rely on lifts from other people, it's a bit too much to walk / cycle every day, (unless you're really fit and don't mind the heat!)

You MIGHT get better value if you hire a car over here before you go. Costs for a Compact Car (with Gateway discounts) are $30 per day or $150 per week or $600 per month. But the real killer is the insurance which you really SHOULDN'T (but legally could) do without.

$11.99 per day (reduced to $8.00 per day for a monthly rental) for Collision Damage Waiver (insurance for damage to the rental car), PLUS $12.37 per day for Supplemental Liability Protection (What you and I call 3rd party - including 3rd party injury / medical). Then there's the Florida Surcharge (call it a rental tax) at $2.02 per day and a Licence Fee of 31c per day. This adds up to $22.70 per day, all subject to 6% sales tax.

I had the thing for 1 month, 2 weeks and 4 days (49 days worth of insurances), and clocked up over 2,000 miles - although there was no Mileage Charge. However, the total cost was $2,187.37.

So be warned, car hire is not cheap - and it's worth checking out what deals your UK travel agent might be able to get you.

Without suggesting anything in particular, I would recommend you speak to Annette about it also and see if she can suggest anything. She may know of a spare car or two.....

The accommodation is BRILLIANT value at $175 per week for a room in a comfortable apartment. The apartments are owned by Annette and are located in a small complex within walking distance of a supermarket and a few restaurants and bars. There is also a communal swimming pool for which you will have a key. It is fully furnished with lots of spare towels, and sheets, washing machine, tumble-drier, Gas Cooker and a telephone to which you can hook up your own laptop for internet access. There is a PC in the apartment for running FAA training software, but it is not internet capable. There is also cable TV in every room (but frankly there's very little worth watching). Most, (but not all), the apartments have a VCR so you can watch porn :O .....I mean Flight training Videos! :ok:

Within 1/2 hour drive from Titusville are the extremely pleasant
areas of Cocoa Beach and Merritt Island, where all the nightlife is, along with the Pier, which has a Bar and good views of any Rocket Launches from the Kennedy Space Center. There are a lot of smaller airfields within easy reach for touch & gos and Merrit Island has one too! The Space Coast is a fantastic view form the air, but watch for the restricted areas.

The weather was a bit hairy for me, since I went over in July / August and it was the hottest time of year. Thunderstorms every afternoon from about 1pm, meaning any worthwhile flying had to be in the mornings, or evening / night. Things will be cooling down a bit in September, but they say the best time for good all-day weather starts in late Autumn thru Winter to early Spring.

Anyway, I hope you have a great time. I promise you, Annette will look after you well and you have made a good choice.

[blueb0y79]

WOW WHAT A GREAT POST !!!

Im scheduled to fly out to do some hourbuilding with Debenair tomorroew for 4 weeks. LD MAX you are an absolute gem for those tips on the car and surrounding area etc. I feel a little bit more comfortable knowing that they really do take care of you and im praying that i can find some cheap transport from somewhere.

Well its going to be the first time flying in the USA too. If i can find the thread or if anyone PMs me then i'll be happy to give them a summary of my opinions about the school and everything.

Again great post LD MAX

[LD Max]

Enjoy your trip. As a USA "virgin" I'm sure you will find the whole experience fantastic. The USA is a much "easier" place to fly than Europe - oh the joys of 1-800 WXBRIEF(ers), VFR-on-top and Flight Following!

Regards,

LD Max

[Captain Frangible]

Hi all; I have flown with Debenair and can confirm that Annette is a nice 'mumsy' type who will look after you. The accomodation was excellent, and of the planes I flew, the one I enjoyed the most was the Piper Warrior N9145P. We had some great times together flying down the keys and really all over Florida.. Naples worth a visit, btu you simply must fly into Cedar Creek.

enjoy!

[blueb0y79]

Well im back safe and sound...i managed a whole month in Titusville and if you have ever been there you will know thats its an achievement and a half !!!

Well what did i think about Debenair..... Annette (the owner of the school) has customer service skills to a tee. I had a house to myself for the whole time i was there and i only paid for a single room! They were so nice that they put other couples in another house so we each had a little bit of privacy.

LD Max mentioned something about car hire. What he didnt mention is if you are over 25 you can rent a car from Annette too.

The school. Well this is mainly just a porta cabin so dont be suprised. But they do share a hanger (pretty big one too) where the debenair mechanics get to work. Ian, who is from down south somewhere, is a top bloke to get to know. On 3 or 4 occasions when the weather was bad he explained the ins and outs of aircraft with the cowling etc removed. He knows his stuff and explained everything in detail. He tried to keep the aircraft flyable while i was there and was successful apart from 1 or 2 minor hitches. But still make sure you check them before you fly, especially the C152s and N757EA with ER tanks which did me no favours. By the way the Arrow is wicked to fly and well maintained.

The school is well run. I flew with both the CFI, Elsworth, and an instructor Mike. Both were brilliant but have there own ways of doing things which is not necessarily the JAA way. But it worked. I got my complex rating and they both prepared me well for my CPL skill test. However they do seem to have a massive complex about leaning that mixture ! (by the way which we all did).

Titusville... imagine an old peoples home and multiply it by 1000. Its crap. Theres absolutely nothing to do. Make sure you take somebody along with you if you do decide to go because its boring as hell. Even worse if you dont hire a car. I used the bike to get there and back for a few days. My a*se was in tatters and it knackers you out. A handy tip. DONT STAY NEAR ORLANDO. ITS A 1 HOUR DRIVE AT LEAST TO THE SCHOOL so add your go go juice to your accomodation and it works out well cheaper and less tiring to stay in one of Annettes houses. If you do go to Orlando for a night out dont bother asking where to go either because they aint got a clue ! Check out Pleasure Island at Disney or Church Street in Downtown Orlando. You re bound to get lucky in one of them. If not trry the expensive gentlemans clubs in Cocoa if you are into that kinda thing. Ask Ian the mechanic for more info on this he he he.

The bottom line is that Debenair really do have things sussed. If you are thinking about hour building then this is THE place to do it. Just give yourself ample time (there was about 7 days bad weather while i was there) and you should be fine. Oh and you have to visit River Ranch, an activity park and rodeo just for pilots.Great.

P.S i think there rates have gone up by 2 dollars just after i arrived so i think its 43 dollars / hour for a C152 and not 41 which may still be advertised.

Happy flying and hello to all at Debenair. Thanks again for your help. If i know how to post pics here i would because ive got 2. reply and i will try.

[cfimei]

Even though Debenair states on their website they are immigration approved this is no longer the case. It seems the feds have finally caught up with them and recently pulled their authorization after a visit from Immigration and Customs Enforcement Special Agents. Remember, if you want to train in the US you need to go to a school that is first FAA Part 141 approved and second, immigration approved under the SEVIS (Student Exchange Visitor Information System) program for either M1, F-1 or J-1 visas. SEVIS authorization stems from FAA approval, if a school loses the latter, the former is automatically voided.

[captmav]

cfimei

So when did this happen....!!!

Was there last week and all seemed hunky dory...

Please, please let me know your sources...

cheers,
Captmav

[cfimei]

In reply to Captmav - I couldn't tell you the exact date but my source was XXXXXXXX (removed for privacy concerns), an Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent. Mr. XXXXX (removed for privacy concerns) told me that he had visited Debenair and asked to see their FAA 141 certificate which they could not provide. You can also check with Mr. Bill Edwards from Orlando's FAA office to confirm Debenair no longer has their 141 approval, hence no immigration approval. In reply to Keygrip - how can you be so sure Debenair can still issue visa's? What are your sources? Government or hearsay?

[Danny]

Based on information received, the following may be of interest:

US flight schools have been and continue to be closely monitored by federal agencies, for obvious reasons. US Immigration approval stems from the FAA Part 141 certification but, as usual, the two government agencies involved don't actually speak to each other very much. So, when the FAA pulls a school's certificate, US immigration are not automatically notified, and so it is possible to continue to offer student visas.

Apparently, Debenair's visa approval has been recently revoked and further investigations are underway. They don't appear in the current list of approved schools on this FAA website: http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/orl/141schl.cfm

[cfimei]

Danny - thanks for posting that follow up

[LD Max]

This all goes to show why this forum is called a Rumour Network. Danny, I am rather surprised that you put 2 and 2 together to make 5. While your explanation of part 141 schools and their eligibility to issue visas is accurate, your conclusion that Debenair have had their visa issuing authority revoked is, nevertheless, incorrect.

I am currently at Debenair. I was a student of the Company last year. I am right here, right now having just completed further training with the Company. I am on an M1 Visa obtained after the part 141 certificate was voluntarily surrendered by the Company. I was here when the INS inspector visited Debenair and I personally know that Debenair is still approved for issuing visa applications. In fact yet another is being issued tomorrow.

Now, I must admit that Debenair have their problems, but non are as severe as the scurrilous rumours being purportrated by their competition. To set the record straight, Debenair voluntarily surrendered their part 141 approval after their former Chief Instructor and CFI MEI were dismissed. These same CFI MEI (s) are now working in the locality at Merritt Island and I would suggest that this is the source of the so-called "information" being posted here.

I would surmise that the motive of this particular CFI MEI is twofold. a) A local operator which seeks to gain commercial advantage by putting down its competitors and b) to satisfy the personal vendettas of those who were dismissed.

I do not intend to take sides over the circumstances of their dismissal. I have no personal knowledge of the situation, however it is clear that there were grievances on both sides, and the matter has left a bitter taste in the mouths of everyone involved. During my previous visit, I had met all of the persons involved and found all of them to be pleasant and professional.

It is a matter of sincere regret to me that in such a relatively short time, these professional gentlemen seem to have taken to childish mudslinging, instead of taking it on the chin and getting on with what they are best qualified to do.

However, I do take issue at untrue allegations being made here in this forum against a company which has always done its best to do the right thing, however unpopular that may be with certain individuals. The lady who owns Debenair has struggled against incredible odds to keep the company entirely legitimate. While the Company's present situation is certainly irregular, the INS have taken the view that Debenair needs a bit of space to re-organise, while they continue to operate under Part 61.

A new application for Part 141 approval is currently being prepared and the INS have granted Debenair a period of time to process their application before any decisions are made, (either way), regarding their visa approval status.

Both the FAA and the INS are aware of the company's ongoing preparations and are engaged in productive dialogue with Debenair to achieve conformance with the regulations without unduly adding to the challenges the company faces.

However, (lest this message be misunderstood), those who seek to cause harm to Debenair by exaggerating every irregularity out of all proportion or by misrepresenting the truth in a public domain, should ask themselves if they are prepared to expose themselves to the same level of scrutiny.

To coin a phrase, "those who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones". If you really want to put the competition out of business, then concentrate on raising your own standards, instead of this petty sniping at others.

Frankly, I think the current behaviour of said CFI MEI is disgraceful and it has no place amongst our profession.

We are all members of an industry which is suffering both economically and politically to an unprecedented extent. It is a time when both pilots and corporate bodies should be working together to forge a path towards a more prosperous future for us all. We should be emphasising cooperation, not competition. Neighbouring schools and colleges should be combining and sharing skills and resources, building upon their mutual strengths, instead of capitalising on their differences.

Niche's view of heaven and hell, portrayed two separate cultures which lived by the same rules. There was food enough for everyone, but they all had to eat with chopsticks which were 6 feet long. In hell, everyone starved because obviously the chopsticks were too long to get the food into their mouths.

But in heaven they prospered simply because.... they fed each other!

I make no apologies for "idealising". Without such ideals there is nothing to work towards.

Let's all, at least, stop walking in the wrong direction and put an end to this sort of nonsense.

[cfimei]

LDMax - I'm astonished that, from what you say, Debenair has not only been given a breather by INS but that they can STILL issue visas. From the detailed account you gave it sounds like you have more at stake than merely being a student. Customers aren't usually that intimate with the 'inside' operations of a business - are you working there too? I appreciate how hard an aviation business is to run, believe me I know but you must understand and appreciate that, in this particular area (federal approvals) there can't be one rule for some and another rule for others - not after 9/11. I simply cannot accept that a government agency responsible for securing our borders would turn a blind eye to the fact that a school is not in compliance with the law. No 141 certificate MUST equal NO immigraton approval, a few days here and there isn't a problem but not 6 months or more out of compliance. Under 141 if a pilot school looses it's certificiate is MUST wait 180 days before re-applying and that re-certification process can take months. During that time you say that INS are happy to let Debenair continue issuing visas? That's 100% contradictory to the information I was given by the same INS agent that visited the school. And your point about me being an ex employee of the school is wrong - I never worked there.

[cfimei]

oddly enough QUITEASILYDONE is right - i didn't post the message for the benefit of Debenair students. i posted it for the benefit of our industry's reputation which has taken some knocks in the past. play by the rules so that people like you can still come to the States and enjoy flying, wherever that may be.

i guess QUITEASY wasn't training in the States on 9/11 and he/she may not know the horrendous time we had in this industry - how the politicians wanted to close the borders to foreign students. it's easy to forget and thus it's easy to assume flight training will always be here for you. i'm not giving any ammunication to those who want to restrict flight training any more than it already is - so perhaps it would be nice if you gave us a break when we try to follow the rules.

[LD Max]

Oh come off it CFIMEI, don't start preaching integrity. Bottom line is it's none of your business how another school conducts theirs.

...there can't be one rule for some and another rule for others - not after 9/11. I simply cannot accept that a government agency responsible for securing our borders would turn a blind eye to the fact that a school is not in compliance with the law.This has nothing to do with 9/11. Let me remind you that "Hour builders" don't need visas at all, and neither do those taking Check Rides. The whole visa thing is so full of loop holes that it hardly amounts to post 9/11 security measures.

The M-1 and J-1 training visas serve only to keep tabs on those who go through the system. I wonder how much training actually gets done under the guise of "Hour Building"?

Debenair, on the other hand, are determined to operate a fully legitimate business and are cooperating with both the FAA and the INS in order to maintain their high standards. They continue to operate under Part 61, and this is sufficient FAA approval for INS to allow them to continue while the 141 application is being made.

You said:
No 141 certificate MUST equal NO immigraton approval...The fact is the INS officer has the sole discretion to approve or decline INS visa issuing status to a school, just the same as an INS officer can approve or decline entry to someone into the United States, regardless of whether they have a visa or not. The decision is his alone.

In this case, the INS officer is satisfied that Debenair is in the process of putting a new 141 application in place, and is content to allow them to continue to issue visas pending a further inspection. He simply has to make a report, and the report won't get written until a decision has finally been made. As I said before, Debenair is in continuing and productive dialogue with both the FAA and the INS.

I see nothing wrong with the process as it has been applied, and Debenair certainly do have their work cut out to satisfy both organisations within a given timescale.

In reference to your denial of having worked at Debenair, I never said you did, although I suppose you might read it that way. I said:Now, I must admit that Debenair have their problems, but non are as severe as the scurrilous rumours being purportrated by their competition. To set the record straight, Debenair voluntarily surrendered their part 141 approval after their former Chief Instructor and CFI MEI were dismissed. These same CFI MEI (s) are now working in the locality at Merritt Island and I would suggest that this is the source of the so-called "information" being posted here.

I would surmise that the motive of this particular CFI MEI is twofold. a) A local operator which seeks to gain commercial advantage by putting down its competitors and b) to satisfy the personal vendettas of those who were dismissed.In your reply you said:

I appreciate how hard an aviation business is to run, believe me I know...Your identity is most certainly known to any voyager around these parts, and to Debenair themselves. But that's not really the point.

What is interesting is the web of deceit which surrounds your information. Mr. Wayne Barry of the INS categorically denies having discussed the matter of visa approval with anyone outside of the INS or Debenair themselves. In fact he has stated that it is illegal for him to do so.

Now this whole issue was raised due to an "annonymous" complaint to the FAA. The FAA sent a copy of their enquiry to the INS, and this is what prompted the INS to make enquiries also.

But the FAA have, nevertheless, confirmed the source of that complaint and... guess what... it's YOU!

Yes... I am protective towards Debenair, and the owner. I count the management there amongst my friends, and Debenair has provided me with a lot of help and assistance beyond what is merely "required". I simply will not stand by and watch them get "bad mouthed" by the likes of you.

I do not work here. I have just completed a training course and that's the extent of my involvement. My "detailed account" is only by virtue of the fact that I know the facts of the case and you do not. I have also taken the time to discuss the matter with the management of Debenair, and you can be assured that they are following this thread with the greatest of interest.

[cfimei]

And what business is it of a foreign student ostensibly on an M-1 visa acting as the spokesman for a US corporation, then having the blind temerity to tell another US corporation to mind it's own business? Astonishing bravado but unwise given your legal status in this country as a student and ONLY a student. Stick to studying aviation LDMax not immigration law but as you are so interested I suggest you read 8 CFR 214.4(a)(xv) (Chapter 8 Code of Federal Regulations) which is entitled "Withdrawal of School Approval - Failure to maintain accreditation or licensing necessary to qualify graduates." It's black and white, not open to personal interpretation. However I will give you one credit. INS does have discretion but only within the law and the law states 30 days to supply the information required when notification of intent to withdraw school approval is received.

To say that 9/11 has nothing to do with the situation displays a deeply flawed understanding of immigration events following the tragedy. Certain politicians are itching to slap down flight schools and impose further restrictions. The Member of Congress for Brevard County tabled legislation imposing a moratorium on student visa's. The Florida legislature considered a licensing scheme for pilots. A tidal wave of anti-flight school rhetoric that could so easily have decimated our industry. So LDMax you should thank those of us in this industry who worked hard to keep the doors open to foreign students such as yourself. And despite your misplaced and naive derision of our efforts, many of us are determined not to give ammunition to those who want more control over flight schools. Debenair, OBA, Voyager, NAC - all of us in this industry have a responsibility to keep legislators eyes away from flight training.

I note the other comments you made but see no need to respond on this forum.

Suffice to say that I expect the law to be applied evenly no matter what you, as a temporary student in this country happens to believe.

[PPRuNe Towers]

So, what you are actually trying to say in your 'protective' way LD - remember now, I'm only trying to protect student pilots interests here, ones like you - the school could no longer meet the standards laid down for FAR 141?

Yes or no?

Also the first item, the very first one on the website, regarding the issue of visas is under some significant doubt.

Yes or no.

It is actually that simple - stop the baffling with bull. I don't care if the school is run by the Holy of of the Sisters of St Titus - it is a commercial flight school out to make a living from wannabees money. This forum is for wannabees not the schools - is that clear to you?


Answer the 2 questions or continue to have your replies written off as bluff and bluster. Is the website accurate? Tell the truth in 25 words or less or clear off this forum.

Rob Lloyd

[Time to Fly]

Rob M8, before you publicly chastise LD Max, you might want to find out who he is. Rumor has it, he is a Moderator for PPRuNe in the Professional Pilot Training (includes ground studies) forum who has direct ties to DeBenair Aviation Services Inc, posting under and assumed name. :eek:

TTF

[LD Max]

TTF, thanks for the promotion, but I am not a moderator. I am a JAA ATPL(F) & FI(R), and FAA CPL/IR ME & SE and an FAA ASC. I live in Reading, Berkshire, UK, and will be returning there on Friday to be with my family and try to get a job.

I do not claim to be a spokesman for an American company. My connection with Debenair is purely as a Student, but as I said before, I count the management as friends and will not stand by to see them lambasted by lies.

My visa is perfectly secure thank you CFI MEI. Your veiled threats are of no concern to me. I wonder if your own visa is as secure. You're not exactly American are you! What visa do you hold? I wonder if the INS or Border Patrol would take as much interest in you as you have taken in Debenair? How long were you illegally working on an E1 visa? Remember the bit I mentioned about glass houses?

Perhaps you should concentrate on flight training instead of delving into the operations of another company.

PPRuNe Towers:

You're a moderator? Would you stand by and watch a perfectly good school's reputation get shot away if you knew that the accusations against them were false?

Now CFIMEI admitted in a previous post:oddly enough QUITEASILYDONE is right - i didn't post the message for the benefit of Debenair students. i posted it for the benefit of our industry's reputation...

So I suggest you make the same point to him about this forum being for the benefit of students.

Here are the straight answers to your questions: Facts only.

1) YES: The school could no longer meet the standards for FAR 141 because it dismissed it's chief instructor, who went to work with "CFI MEI" at Voyager Aviation in Merrit Island FL. Debenair voluntarily surrendered its Part 141 pending the recruitment of a replacement Chief Instructor. They have now hired a replacement and an application for the Part 141 is currently being processed.

2) YES: I say again, Debenair remains authorised to issue M-1 Student Visas, pending a decision by the INS. That decision will be made in due course at the INS officer's discretion. The INS officer knows his jurisdiction and limits of authority, and if anyone has a problem with that, they should take it up with him. I would expect a short answer though!

3) I agree this forum is for the benefit of students. They deserve first class training. They will get first class training at Debenair. Overseas Students will require an M-1 Visa which they can obtain from Debenair. To suggest that Debenair has had their visa approval status removed is misleading to students and would encourage them to look elsewhere under false pretences.

Clear enough?

I am jumping down CFI MEI's throat because he is using this forum to spread damn lies about Debenair's operations, in the hope of damaging the company and persuading students to go elsewhere. His motives are personal and unprofessional, and he has no right to use this forum as a sounding board for his own grudges.

Listen up. I am a student. I am very satisfied with Debenair and would recommend them to any other student. I have no axe to grind with CFI MEI or anyone else on a commercial level. But I
WILL NOT allow him to make these absurd claims without challenging him and letting everyone know the truth.

The truth is that CFIMEI at Voyager aviation has been waging a long-standing vendetta against Debenair, by making complaints to the authorities at every opportunity. In every case, the authorities have engaged in productive dialogue with Debenair to resolve any issues and are satisfied that the Company is acting professionally. CFIMEI cannot stand the fact that his multiple attempts to cause Debenair harm have failed, and so he is now using this forum in an attempt to persuade students that Debenair are somehow going to fail them in their expectations.

Everything he has said about Debenair is scurrilous and inaccurate.

As for the debate on post 9/11 effects on visas... I say again, CFIMEI's comments have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. That is a whole different debate, (and quite a worthwhile one too), but is totally irrelevant to the context in which CFIMEI's comments have been applied.

I am interested to note, (however), that CFIMEI makes one good point.Debenair, OBA, Voyager, NAC - all of us in this industry have a responsibility to keep legislators eyes away from flight training.

Unfortunately, his actions are doing the exact opposite.

[BIG MISTER]

Well I'm very surprized to read this thread about a school that I've had so much fun at with both friends and family a like.

I've been there 3 times now since I first booked some hours with them in 2001 and I was pleased to see them getting bigger and better every time I return there.

I have only just returned from a quick week out there 'dodging the thunder storms' and can report that all is well. In fact everything is 'more than well' !

Annette has just employed a new Chief Flying Instructor and this guy is keen as mustard to take the school to the next level. I'm sure the 141 side of things will be sorted very shortly.

Not only that but Annette has great plans in the pipeline for her flight school and this cant have gone unseen or noticed by some of her fellow training providers. I would suggest that this is the true reason for all the finger pointing and whistle blowing.

Rest assured that this school is on the up and I'm very pleased for all those who have backed Annette as they have.

I'm also glad to see that Annette herself has bounced back so well after the sad loss of her husband Bill.......It would have been far easier for her to have just thrown in the towel sold the aircraft + school and headed back to the UK with a nice fat cheque. But Annetta lives for her flying school (shes there 7 days a week) and she is only happy when her pilots are happy.

To give you an example of this she was down in the dumps that the thunderstorms had prevented me from doing much flying during the week I was there.....as if she could have done anything about the weather ! ! !

Watch this space......the school is on the up and I'm tickled pink for her and everyone else thats back her up over the years. You know who you all are !

As for those of you that have mocked the school (and theres only one that springs to mind) shame on you.....The lady is a real star and she's worth a whole coach load of other schools I could name ! ! !

But why take my word for it.....The school will shotly be opening a canteen with full list of popular English meals. If you are missing a real sunday roast then its suggested shortly that every sunday should be a 'fly-in' to enjoy a taste of home.

What better time to pop in and see the school and meet the students / instructors for yourself ?

As for me....I've already booked to go back again. Fingers crossed that the weather's a bit better......or there will be another small depression in Florida !

Just in case anyone was wondering.....What connections do I have with the school ?

NONE - I work for her maj and also co own a company that imports and exports aircraft + a more than happy customer of this flight school....

Cheers





:ok::ok:

[mike halls]

Hi Guy's,

I have been to debenair on several occasions and
had a great experience with them.

IT'S NICE TO SEE PEOPLE STICKING UP FOR THEM
THEY DESERVE IT.
GREAT POST "BIG MISTER".

If it was'nt for me moving I would still be training there
they are very helpful and it is good to see them do well.

It is unfortunate that people say negative things
about a school that they themselves don't is true.

I know the only two schools I would go to in the
states and debenair is one of them.

safe flying ALL

MIKE

[BIG MISTER]

Nice to hear it mate !

I have just dropped you a personal message for your info.

Send my regards to Annette and the lads out there and remind Ryan that he's dead when I next see him ! ! !

Cheers + enjoy ! ! !

:} :} :}

www.bigmisters.co.uk

[Engine Noise]

Hi, has anyone been to debeanair in tit. fl. Any testimonial on the school?

[PaddyMcGinty]

Hi there,

Yup been there last year and going back in a weeks time. its a great school and great value for money. The lady who runs the school is like a mother to the students. She sincerely has their best interests at heart. I couldn't recommend them more, thats why i'm going back to finish my training. They are also doing JAR licences now which suits me even better. If you want some more info pm me and i'll be happy to help. Good luck.

Steve

[727Man]

yes i was there Oct-Dec 2003 highly recomend it, went with 40hrs
no ppl came back with 260 hrs cpl multi IR now doing the dreaded
14 JAA exams with 6 to go! the school has gone through some changes for the better. the lady who runs it is a british lady from leeds and will do anything for you, she picks you up from the airport and will lend you a bike for transport. I flew all over Florida. Key West to Atlanta and plenty of trips to lake Okachobee building those hours! you will find it great value for money even more so now with the strong pound. the aircraft were not the best around but well maintained. you pay as you fly and she is not there to steal your money. you may email [email protected] with any Q's. there used to be an 0800 telephone to call the school. good Luck!

[Engine Noise]

Anybody been to the flight school? I will apreciate any info please.A friend of mine is planning to go there and requires info on their standard.

[Keygrip]

From the news I received recently, I would say that "they" (DeBenair) don't have any standards - as all they do is rent aircraft for hour building.

No instruction going at DeBenair. What does your buddy hope to do?

[Sensible]

Well, you can start by asking Keygrip because he knows just about everything about every training place in Florida since he lives and works in aviation training there! You might even find him sitting next to you if you do a checkride there one day;)

[powdermonkey]

Hi all,
Anyone been to Debenair for hour building recently? I am thinking of going very early May. Anyone have recent experience and advice?
Also curious as to whether or not I can do an Me and night rating there.
I don't think they are JAR, but have had no replies from them lately ( maybe my emails didn't get through?). If I can't do ME / Night there, where is there a school close by I could complete the ratings before going home?
Debenair have a great $60 dollar rate for hr building whuch I financially can't argue with....?
Any comments very welcomed!!!
Cheers
PM

[bfato]

You can get the list of UK CAA approved RTFs and FTOs from their website, with a bit of digging. I don't *think* debonair was on either last time I looked but you could download yourself a copy and look.

Afraid I don't know if the IAA (or any other JAA member states other than the UK) have authorised any overseas training centres but I have a feeling they haven't.

[powdermonkey]

The IAA did, some time ago....but no longer I think. Will double check it!
Thanks, will look up the CAA site.

[BroomstickPilot]

A friend of mine did her hour building at Debenair in about 2003/4 and speaks very well of them.
Apparently it belongs to an English lady pilot/instructor.
They're a well known name, and have been around for a good while, so if you use the 'search' function, I'm sure you will find numerous previous posts about them.
Broomstick.

[Henry Hallam]

I trained at Debenair for an FAA private ticket in september 2005. They had just wrapped up JAA operations, I think because it was too expensive to maintain the JAA-cert instructors and too much paperwork. So you probably can't do the ME/night ratings there. Things may have changed so give them a phone call and see. I'm not sure which nearby schools can give you the JAA ratings, the only close one that I looked at was Voyager at Merritt Island, but they are FAA-only as well.

I highly recommend the school, the standard of training was excellent and I was made to feel very welcome. Annette, the owner, does a great job of running the place and owns some accomodation relatively near the school, she will drive you to the airfield each morning for I think $5/day.
Overall I thought the school provided very good value for money; some other schools in Florida are a little cheaper but I would prefer Debenair because it is small, friendly and provided what I thought was very high quality training.

Do check with Annette that the plane capacity is available for extended periods of hour-building, they have a decent fleet of aircraft but several were out for maintenance while I was there. I expect they're back in action now though.

It might be easiest to reach Annette on the phone, the number I have is 0207 993 2554 or 00 1 321 385 3999

[stadis450]

I was at Debenair begining of March on my second visit, Annette was thinking of down sizing just to accommadate hour builders which would be a shame, had a great time there, she sorted out all accomadation which was local to the Golen Lion had many a happy night in there and made some great friends out there from over here, well worth giving her a ring and having a chat with her, tell her what your needs are and she'll do everything possible to help you.
:ok:

[RomeoDelta155]

Has anyone been to Debenair Aviation at Titusville recntly. Is it still operating and if so what were your experiences of it as I am thinking of going for some hour building.

[pipergirl]

I was there in January this year and it was my second visit to the school for hour building. Annette is a lovely lady..very helpful and accomodating

School is small and there have only ever been a few people there when I went, which was ideal for hour building. I had some great times there and would highly recommend them...
give the website a look www.debenair.com..as far as I know they are still up and running:)

[bolty_1000]

I had friends doing hour building there earlier on in the year - I think they struggled in getting hours done to plan due to their a/c going tech too often.

I was at Sunrise Aviatoin just some 50nm North near Daytona Beach at Sunrise Aviation http://www.flysunrise.net/. I completed 85 hours in approx 3 weeks with sole use of one of their a/c for the duration. Student accomodation is right on the beach just 10 mins from Daytona so that was a bonus! So personally Id recommend them!

pm me if you would like to know more.

[mcbenny]

Hi there!
This is my first post at pprune :ok:
I'm still in the process of saving/raising money to self-fund my flight training and I'm also planning it; I'm going for the modular route of course. :D:D:D
I'd be interested in knowing if someone is currently at Debenair, I've read rumors that they're no longer doing training courses but "hour building" only.

Many thanks to anyone who will help!!

McBenny

[BillieBob]

Debenair do not hold any JAA approvals

[STATSMAN]

I have used Debenair twice but only for flying while on holiday in the states. As of March they only have C152's & a PA 28-161. Annette the owner is very good and has houses to rent if required. She has not done any JAA training for some time so you will need a FAA ticket. Spacecoast is a great airport and well placed for flying in FL.

Statsman

[mcbenny]

Yeah, I know they only do FAA training, I'll do the FAA courses and then conversions to JAA in UK.

So Statsman, no Senecas at Debenair? Their site still advertises them!! :confused::confused:

[Greg2041]

Hi, I'm thinking about learning to fly with Debenair in March 2008. Apparently they are top notch but only cover the FAA syllabus. I can't wait.

[makonnda]

I did my FAA PPL at Debenair in Dec 2005 and only have good things to say about Annette and Debenair!

[karan812]

In May 2007, Annette sold Debenair to Orlando Santiago, who was one of the students there.
The instructors are still the same there, ie, George Ennis.
The school is still great, but Annette no longer owns the flight school.
Also, the prices have gone up by quite a bit, so you'll want to call them to check up before you go there.
When I was there, in August 2007, they had a seneca and an arrow on lease.

[Greg2041]

Do you know if they have a new website?

[Greg2041]

Come on. Someone out there must know how to contact them now?

[STATSMAN]

No Web site yet (since sale of flight school by annette)
You can ring (001)321 385 3999 or e-mail [email protected] reply came from Cynthia. I will be with debenair at the end of Feb for 10 days hour building.

Statsman

[Greg2041]

Hey, that's great. I will drop them/him an email.