Disillusioned - persuade me to stay? [Archive]

southside

14th Mar 2006, 19:54

Reasons to stay in

PRO's

Cheap accom
Free health care
Free dental
Free sports
Good working hours (for some)
Lots of brilliant mates
The odd beano to Aviano
free flying
cheap beer
free phone calls
The bird behind the bar in the wardroom
Thursday night is curry night
Free ressetlement courses
Free moving expenses
They pay for you to drive to work
They pay for you to drive home again
Free tea and coffee at work
Free nutty, crisps at work
Free internet
Embarked aviation
Pays good

CONS

Going to sea
No phones at Sea
No TV at sea
1 Email a day at sea
No internet at sea
you pay for yr coffee, crisps at sea
they dont allow you to go home when yr at sea
No beano's to Aviano
Sea State 7 and above (no flying)
No social life at sea (plenty alongside)

must be some more....I'll keep editing

The Helpful Stacker

14th Mar 2006, 20:00

I was asked by my boss if I'd recommend the RAF to a friend the other day. "Not if I wanted to keep them as a friend", was my response.

I've had some good times over the years, nearly always down to the people not the service, but unfortunately it seems we are being taken advantage of and the good times will dry up as people find themselves short of time in which to have a laugh.

The old argument is "well its always been like this, just get on with it" but it hasn't always been like this. We have more overseas commitments than we have had for a very long time and they don't seem like they'll be decreasing significantly anytime soon yet the people available to man them are.

Even the lowliest of SAC's now wears multiple hats, whether they be purely trade related or one or more from the many duties outside of our primary role, yet once again the AFPRB has kicked us in the teeth, showing what value it and therefore the government places on the efforts and hard work of the men and women of the Armed Forces.

I will sad in a way to leave in 2007, as I said I've had some good times in the strangest of places all over the world but I feel betrayed by those appointed higher in the food chain to look out for us little people and betrayed by a government that loves to take the plaudits that the Armed Forces gain for them yet show very little love back.

Tonkenna

14th Mar 2006, 20:03

I couldn't be arsed to leave....

that's about it:uhoh:

Tonks:ok:

threepointonefour

14th Mar 2006, 20:09

PRO's

Cheap accom - not anymore. And I live out anyway.

Free health care - I think perhaps, 'more convenient' is more apt.

Free dental - prob THE biggest perk, having just dealt with my son's dentist

Free sports - perhaps ... if you have time

Good working hours (for some) - been on both ends of this one ... happy to work long hours, but not for nothing.

Lots of brilliant mates - all leaving

The odd beano to Aviano - not without tons of hassle

free flying - day to day mundane, then manic as you get shot at - life isn't 2 v 2 doggers anymore.

cheap beer - A GOOD reason, but not one that'll make me stay

free phone calls - never seen those
The bird behind the bar in the wardroom - ditto

Thursday night is curry night - don't live in, so not relevant to me

Free ressetlement courses - underway as we speak ...

Free moving expenses - when they move you (like most other companies)

They pay for you to drive to work - a pittance, but I guess good if live a distance away

They pay for you to drive home again - lucky us

Free tea and coffee at work - crap coffee.

Free nutty, crisps at work - bizarre, but true.

Free internet - got it at home.

Embarked aviation - hmmm

Pays good - not for being shot at and treated like *&%$, while spending more than half the yr out of the country!

Southside, I commend you for taking the time ... PMA forgot to mention the free coffee in our last chat!

Safety_Helmut

14th Mar 2006, 20:23

Pros: There aren't too many c0cks like southside.

Cons: You might be the poor lucky sod who has to work with a c0ck like southside! :ooh:

S_H

southside

14th Mar 2006, 20:23

Testingtheseatlimit

14th Mar 2006, 20:33

Reasons to stay:

Job Security - You know, more or less, how much time you are certain of employment
Friendship - lots of like-minded individuals
Pay - not bad - see first point
Pension - secure, (but not awesome compared to some) (wouldn't advise people to join for new scheme though!):D
CEA - Good deal.;)

Reasons to depart:

Absence: Too much time away:sad:
Good deals: Seem to get less and less (Travel, allowances etc):ugh:
Op Tours: Seem to get more and more
Equipment: Bad and getting worse (take a look at DPAs current track record!):mad: (probably my biggest gripe!)
JPA: Admin burden may increase (I stand to be corrected with this one):confused:
Flying: Don't know that many really happy fliers, aware that they exist though Southside!:confused:
Poor Leadership: See all of the above.:mad:
Poor prospects: For all but the chosen few (May just be a generational thing!) and , of course, Yes men.:bored:
Triv: On a constant increase:ugh:
Feeling valued: Just don't anymore (again, could be a personal problem on my part):{
Uncertainty: too much change, too quickly

I've had a reasonable 21 years, haven't yet made a final decision, but starting to feel its time to go. I too will be sad, as the RAF I joined was a hoot. Not sure that there's a lot of alternatives out there though (that would be a vastly different proposition, could be that all of our society stinks at the moment), except maybe starting your own business (Risky!).

Overall feeling: Negative and descending fast!!
And please don't say: "if you don't like it leave!" I think my time served deserves more understanding than that!!!

southside

14th Mar 2006, 20:41

Your right of course. Things have changed....some for the good...some not so good. The Flying has certainly changed...gone are the days of wazzing along the severn corridor and seeing if you were brave enough to go under the bridge... gone are the days of seeing if you could put a wheel on top of the Humber bridge...

even the weapons and stores we carry have all gone...no more 1/2" recce flares....ever tried to lob a marker marine out at FL100 and seeing if you could beat it down....formation autorotations...fab fun...

Yep, yr right....some of the fun has gone...but there is still plenty to be had... just have to look harder

L J R

14th Mar 2006, 20:46

Anyone got some rose coloured glasses for sale, I'm kinda short of 'em here.

threepointonefour

14th Mar 2006, 21:03

...hmmm..lol. There is a common theme here. Firstly you don't like getting shot at...well, we can all echo that sentiment but to be honest, if it came as a surprise to you that the bad guys would shoot at you then maybe a military career isn't for you.....

19 yrs so far having joined at 18, so I don't think you can level the 'military career not for you' comment at me! ... I just don't feel indestructible anymore and need more of an incentive (than, "you can spend 9.5 of the next 17 yrs out of the country, and we won't tell you where you're going next") to literally put my ass on the line these days. The money is 'c0%& all' use to my family if I get wasted in some faraway land (insert as appropriate).

and secondly, you don't like the coffee. Why don't you get nicer coffee then. Surely you are not gonna tell me that the RAF even dictate which brand of coffee you choose to drink.?

You're right there - I don't, I do, and they don't. My point was that as I provide my own coffee, it no longer classes as 'free' and therefore isn't a 'pro' !!

Anyone got some rose coloured glasses for sale, I'm kinda short of 'em here.

I think some fat navigator sat on mine in 1994 ...

Sandy Wings

14th Mar 2006, 21:03

You do have to ask why there are a few Typhoon guys leaving the Airforce? Some have not been persuaded to stay, which to me indicates a steady decline?
Had a good 16 years but off to fly big fun buses which go on time and don't go to the Falklands (yet anyway!)

southside

14th Mar 2006, 21:06

19 yrs so far having joined at 18....well there ya go mate. Ya gotta give it a fair crack of the whip.... stay in a bit longer and see if you might like it.

threepointonefour

14th Mar 2006, 21:11

And please don't say: "if you don't like it leave!" I think my time served deserves more understanding than that!!!

I echo that entirely. I've given 19 yrs of service without so much as a complaint, got on with everything thrown at me and even done a couple of high profile, service-representing jobs. And the thanks I get, "stay, but make sure you bend over ... earning this extra cash might hurt a little bit ...!"

threepointonefour

14th Mar 2006, 21:13

You do have to ask why there are a few Typhoon guys leaving the Airforce? Some have not been persuaded to stay, which to me indicates a steady decline?

Ask around ... "how many of the original Typhoon pilots are still in ...?"

Had Enough 77

14th Mar 2006, 21:14

Is southside really trying to convice people on this forum that he has enough freinds to go out for a curry with, i mean he says some extravagent things but this has to take the biscuit.

As for the PRO's versus CON's ,humour aside, there is a distinct lack of PRO's anymore. As the government needs more money for schools, hospitals, asylum seekers the military will become a bank to withdraw for their new policies. The basic fact is that the amount of votes the military has does not make the difference in an election anymore compared to these other areas.

It has made me see that the future is decidedly not rosey for the forces and made me decide that a better quality of life available in the civilian world. I would say however that the flying available in the forces is 100 times better than civi' land but there is a lot of baggage that comes along with it.:ok:

P.S L J R i think i know somebody with quite a large supply, might be at sea though!:{

Pontius Navigator

14th Mar 2006, 21:16

"They pay you to get to work and home again."

This is a perk that only the forces get?

Years ago the BBC guys flying with us wanted to get the air miles covered in the trip so they could claim the mileage.

Pilot, can't remember if he was Vulcans or Nimrods, initials PZ, got a job as a company pilot. They paid him for 50 miles each way regardless of where he lived.

Flt Eng, left ISK, joined BA, lived in Nairn and commuted to LHR.

And so on.

bakseetblatherer

15th Mar 2006, 02:00

Disillusioned - persuade me to stay?
-No you are better off out!:D

eagle 86

15th Mar 2006, 02:43

Strikes me that the Brit forces are re-visiting a lot of places that were first visited way back in the thirties - I would imagine that life in these lands was far tougher in those days.
In the late thirties your government got you into a lot bigger ****fight than you are in now with many more casualties.
Governments since forever have been despatching the troops forth to do their bidding - nothing will change in the furure.
I think a lot of you approached service life with rose-coloured glasses (maybe the glasses were given to you by the recruiters!) and didn't really think of the possible consequences of joining up.
To quote-
"If you can't take a joke you should not have joined" and "(Service) life wasn't meant to be easy".
GAGS
E86

B Sousa

15th Mar 2006, 02:43

Dont know much about Retirement from the Brit side but I will say that in the U.S. the biggest drain on finances is Health Care. I think my lucky stars that I stayed in the reserves after some years active as I am now old enough to get a small check, but also Health Care for my family. Its worth at least the minimum time you need to retire. From there your usually young enough to get other jobs and with a military backround some folks think you have a bit more discipline (not necessarily in my case, but)
I also see a lot of Brits in South Africa tending to Medical needs, so that must say something for things there.
Life is all about choices, heres hoping yours turn out OK.

havoc

15th Mar 2006, 03:17

Interesting thread I hope you don't mind the input, after 24 years I woke up and realized I could not make a difference anymore in what I was doing (UH-60 IFE/IP).

And the coffee sucked.

Pontius Navigator

15th Mar 2006, 06:01

Interesting though. You get all the nocking copy when you invite the question but the moment someone asks for advice to get in it is given willingly, every encouragement, and rarely any doubts.:)

Maybe an ulterior motive, get 'em in, train 'em up, and they can have my job?

Used to work the other way round in the old days. If you found a good billet you kept your trap shut and hopped the poster would not notice - lik RAFLO at Hichkam Yup, it existed for a few years on the western reinforcement route. Must have been rough, but someone had to do it.

Tonkenna

15th Mar 2006, 07:07

Despite my rather flippant remark at the beginning of the thread, I decided to stay in on PA Spine for several reasons:

I still enjoy the life
I love flying the ac I fly
There are some great people at work and crew room banter is fun
The pension
The grass is no greener (the wife of a friend of mine with a large UK airline described life on sby as just as bad as being married to the RAF)

There are thing I hate about the job like the rushed and poorly thought out JPA... but at least it gives us something to moan about.

Overall... I am happy with my lot

Tonks:\

RileyDove

15th Mar 2006, 12:09

Eagle- Back in the thirties the government was dispatching our servicemen to
the desert to live in tents and fight . Now we have servicemen and women but still use tents! The 'big scrap' at the end of the thirties was quite justified ! Using the current governments rationale of dictators and dangerous regimes we would have attacked Germany in the thirties if there was any sniff of oil being there!

Anton Meyer

15th Mar 2006, 14:22

Don't bother staying. If you are unhappy now, it is unlikely to get better. Do what your pension tells you and keep one ear out or life in civvy street. They won't miss you and you will be forgotten about quite quickly. You will have some fond memories but few regrets. Life goes on.

ChezTanker

15th Mar 2006, 15:58

N Arslow

15th Mar 2006, 19:07

Life is what you make of it - in or out.
Had great times.
Having great times.
Will have great times.
I am responsible for all three - no one else - although the Mrs getting me N Arshigh helps lots!

SirToppamHat

15th Mar 2006, 19:09

What free coffee? 20-30p a cup from the Klix Machine or you buy your own and get what you pay for if you're lucky to have somewhere to make it. Don't remember it ever being any different - we even had to fight for coffee with lunch.

STH

JessTheDog

15th Mar 2006, 19:44

As someone who PVRd, I'd still recommend joining to anyone, with the following advice:

Join young and single.
Enjoy it while it lasts.
Keep a view towards civvie street.
As soon as you get married, start planning to leave.
If single and no longer having fun, start planning to leave.
If you are planning a family, get out immediately!

The RAF life (and that of the other Services) is not compatible with family life in modern society. It was more compatible 20 years ago, when family life was different - this is a reflection on society. The overstretch and cutbacks make the situation worse.

Roland Pulfrew

15th Mar 2006, 21:52

I'm with Tonks on this one

The life is still fun - but it isn't what it used to be.

The flying is still fun - but there isn't as much as there used to be.

The perks are there - but they are harder to find than they used to be.

The penny pinching and the loss of 'perks' is a compelte pain in the a***.

I do believe, notwithstanding the black Omegas, that our Airships do not fight for the RAF or stand up to the beancounters/treasury/politicians for fear of losing their next promotion/knighthood.

It is still fun but it is frustrating. Let's face it though if aircrew are not complaining about something then there really is something wrong.;)

Oggin Aviator

15th Mar 2006, 22:31

Hickam, Hawaii was an excellent RAFLO job - rumour has it that it was binned by the last incumbent who had been extended in post.
There's still a Movers job at Travis - the biggest USAF base I visited with everything provided and only 40 minutes from San Fran, 3 hrs from Tahoe. Must be a great job, although Hickam would have been better - 2 years in Oahu would have been awesome - apart from the traffic!
Oggin

BEagle

16th Mar 2006, 06:11

Back in the days when uniform and Landrovers were blue and no-one wore cabbage kit, I was told that the RAFLO Hickam job had always been an aircrew post. Then someone decided to post in a blunty, who promptly recommended that the RAFLO Travis could cover both Western US and Hawaii....

Ar$e!

"I do believe, notwithstanding the black Omegas, that our Airships do not fight for the RAF or stand up to the beancounters/treasury/politicians for fear of losing their next promotion/knighthood."

Had a bit of a Road to Damascus experience, Roly? I'm sure you're right - and don't forget the chiselling little $hits lurking on the buffet boundary for Air W@nk, who will stab anyone in the back in order to pursue their own agenda....

P-T-Gamekeeper

16th Mar 2006, 07:54

The big question to ask is do I want to make a full career out of the RAF, or do I see myself flying outside?

If you are looking at a second career, then start it as soon as possible. If you are under 35, then it is not financially worth the pension, (as you are balancing 17 years of pension against your final 3 years of airline captain's salary)

Timing also plays a big part. At the moment, the big carriers are recruiting heavilly, but who says this will continue. Last year I decided the time was right for me to go, and am now flying longhaul for a major carrier. The RAF wouldn't extend me, I was offered a good job with a £14k payrise - decision made.

Having said that, the grass isn't always lush and green. The RAF has changed, but so has the rest of the world. You will work hard for your money, but will go to nice places, and will know when you are going there.

As for having lots of great mates in the RAF, most of mine left/are leaving anyway! All the pilots I have met in my airline have been top guys so far, plus my crew includes 13 girls!(and the odd Daffyd!).

I had a great time in
I would do it all over again
I am looking forward to a great time out.
Best of luck whatever option you choose.

P-T-G

Alexander.Yakovlev

16th Mar 2006, 09:56

Having read the thread and the similiar threads on the site, I am really interested to know if in your opinions, the RAF still offers a good, worthwhile career to potential applicants, regardless of trade?

dallas

16th Mar 2006, 10:31

Alexander,

It depends on what an entrant wants from it and what they end up choosing as a trade/branch. For a kid who wants a first job with a bit of beer money, yet still needs a bit of mollycoddling (sp?), the junior ranks will get him/her fed and clothed, while regular privacy invasions under the banner of 'welfare' are included to remind people they are thought of as kids. This continues until an individual leaves or is promoted. For first job experience it's not bad, but the enlisted ranks aren't really a career unless you're short of other ideas/options. (I'm a SNCO btw...)

Separately you can join as an officer. There are certainly benefits, but the cost can be high too; you are expected to act a certain way - often contrary to normal human behaviour, such as eating an apple with a knife and fork or being nice to people you hate. It makes 'them' better than 'us' enlisted lot and far better leaders in battle...apparently. One of the biggest perks to being a officer is instant expertise on most subjects. Combined with a natural ability to talk down to anyone displaying lesser insignia, officers have made the RAF the organisation it is today. :hmm:

Apart from choosing whether to enter at council estate or superhuman level you also need to decide what you want to do. If you enter as, say, a RAF policeman (enlisted) you'll have no mates and will only get a job at your local cinema when you leave. However, if you join as a pilot you'll not only get to fly, but will be genetically capable of doing anything - running a chess club, signing multi-million pound contracts and even commanding a whole RAF base! No experience necessary! The best bit is if you screw-up or waste money on promotion-enhancing ideas you're unlikely to suffer the consequences as you'll probably have gone by then! After the RAF you'll easily get a job as most people think military officers are like Ben Fogle.

So, in answer to your question - join as an officer, as a pilot. Everyone else is more of a prisoner than an employee.

Alexander.Yakovlev

16th Mar 2006, 10:53

I have made a commitment to join the RAF, and have many reasons for doing so. However, I find it very easy with the raw deal the forces gets from the press, and reading so many cons as oppose to pros in forces life, to question whether it is really the right decision. Ultimately I beleive that it is of course since I didn't not beleive everything in the RAF would be great. But all the bad publicity in the press can do nothing for recruitment.

dallas

16th Mar 2006, 11:02

Alexander

It's worth trying, believe me. Just have your eyes open.

I'd also balance out whatever you read here by saying that Pprune is a anonymous release valve for many frustrated people and won't have many good things to say about the management by its very nature. However, behind the headlines there are many threads detailing the good bits and even the fun!

Provided you don't think too hard about the apparently stupid, petty and mindless changes and re-inventions that keep the less-employed in a job, there is still lots to enjoy. As I said to begin with, it's worth trying.

threepointonefour

16th Mar 2006, 21:16

Should I stay or should I go now?

If I go there may be trouble ... if I stay there will be double.

Life's too short ...... thanks to all who replied. I only really spotted one who was unwaiveringly 'FOR'.

Hey ho - the 90's were fun at least.

bird99

16th Mar 2006, 22:11

'There are certainly benefits, but the cost can be high too; you are expected to act a certain way - often contrary to normal human behaviour, such as eating an apple with a knife and fork or being nice to people you hate. It makes 'them' better than 'us' enlisted lot and far better leaders in battle...apparently.'

Can't figure out how to put this as a quote. This is rubbish. Officers today can be all sorts of people - eating an apple isn't the key. Trying to motivate people with more work and more commitments, when the social life is less of a bonus is a lot of the issue - but that isn't unique to the military - just a challenge. However, if you are up for it and like working (a lot) and like being involved in some fascinating worlds - then this is a good career. When you reach the limit of what you want/floats your boat - then leave. Don't stick around whingeing. It's that simple. Enjoy!

threepointonefour

16th Mar 2006, 22:25

When you reach the limit of what you want/floats your boat - then leave. Don't stick around whingeing. It's that simple. Enjoy!

Reached that limit a while ago - since then, the flying has got more mundane, trivia somehow increases when you think it can't, dets have got 'less pleasant' etc etc.

Point is, I am in a lucky position at the moment and DO have a choice and am now certain I'll take it, and whatever comes my way outside. I deserve more, and fully acknowledge that I'm not going to get it, so "so long, and thanks for all the fish (on Friday lunchtime)".

WeaselRN

16th Mar 2006, 22:51

Not with standing the feelings of our blunter friends in this forum. But lets be in no doubt that we are privaliged to fly these war going beasts. sure there are serious down sides, especially for those those of us with little people. But that feeling of walking out in the dark to your jetat 4 in the morning mist, 40 degrees of humid heat, sandy flying suit, torch in hand , checking your epw and BOL. gold, goolie chit and pistol at the ready. no matter how much you miss home, how crap squadron poliitics are, you love it, i did. I miss it too.