If not Emirates, then where to ??

[Eisenhower]

First, I´d like to thank all people who took their time and posted on threads about EK. For sure, things look a lot rosey from the outside. The thing is, though: I live in a 3rd world country, where I am not satisfied with my job (A320 F/O). Neither my wage is good, nor I have much time home. Management is also close to this "don´t disturb me" approach I read many complaining about. So, for me, going to EK, even though it is not as good as I thought, and being advised by people who work there, would substantially increase my income and family relation.

My question is: If not EK, where to ?? Note that going to an US major or Europe is a no/no due to my citizenship.

[Patrick_AUSTRIAN]

HI,

Where are you from?
Maybe you can go to Qatar Airways or Kuwait Airways or Etihad Airways?

best regards,
Patrick

[Eisenhower]

Hello, Patrick;
From what I´ve heard, Ethiad is less than EK, and Qatar is not a nice place to bring family to, due to their religious extremism (so I heard, not personal). I did not hear anything about Kuwait, but it sounds to me like the city is not as good as Dubai is.

[Frozen Turtle]

Your question is justified.

IF you come to the Middle East there is only one airline to go to:- Emirates.

Emirates might not be paradise but at least they have some level of professionalism and by far the best "total package"....

All others are probably worse than your present airline (esp. QR and GF):zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

Good luck

[propdog]

Try Cathay Pacific.

[Nolights-essential3]

Yeah, Dog....and go to those forums and you'll see more of the same management / crew / lifestyle issues as here
CX...big issues... heard about the 49ers? ...and that's old news
2 guys from Dragon dismissed for not working on days off
.....seriously, we're all getting the shaft

[White Knight]

To be honest it sounds like most airlines have the same kind of issues... However, when it comes to the Gulf I would say EK is probably the best bet - Etihad's still the new kid on the block, Qatar's trying hard to be like EK (but I don't think that using A319s for medium to long haul is the way to go:\ :\ )

As for where is best to live, well - depends what you like. I like Dubai, I know others will disagree but there is a lot to do there. Abu Dhabi's a long way behind, Qatar again trying to play "catchup". I hear that Bahrain's a nice place, and I know Oman is.... I wouldn't bother with Sharjah though:{

[Eisenhower]

Thanks for your posts. I´ve noticed a good number of Europeans and Americans at EK. I would like to know what makes the package at EK more interesting than, let´s say Cathay, that have bases both in the EU and the US. Wouldn´t a company like CX be actually what many are looking for ?

[european champion]

I think its more about lifestyle,its not just the package that we should consider.Personally if i had to choose between living in US or Dubai i would go to Dubai without thinking twice.

[tomuchwork]

@White Knight

Why a 319LR is a bad choice for medium ops? First of all I was already a pax on this 319 and it is in points of pax comfort equal to a "real" long range aircraft.
Just because at least one ME airline starts to use it`s brain to reduce costs on low densitiy sectors it doesn`t mean they offer a bad product. I find the 319(I guess as well Airbus does!) fits perfect for 6-7 hour flights from the ME to europe - why should you use a 330 for, lets say 80 Passengers? It would be just uneconomic!

An other thing - I read often the word copy in regard of Emirates and Qatar Airways - do you really think Emirates did develop everything by themself, please ..........:hmm: I think they where as well really busy copying European and Asian Airlines;) .

I think places to go in the ME are Qatar Airways and Emirates, Etihad are still ignorants beeing just fixed on typerated guys, gulf air playing in a totally other, much poorer, league.

I am aware of some really bad threads about Qatar Airways, however, honestly I hardly believe most of the stories coming from always the same writers. If I think back to some of my previous companies, I could write a lot of bad things nearly matching the post about Qatar. And I worked for airlines like lauda air and swiss...:mad:

[Nolights-essential3]

I dunno Ike
Its just the same toy, repackaged.

...unless my info is out of date Pax fleet ....Start as a SO in Hong Kong ...yeah great!
Cargo fleet...direct entry FO EU bases ( and maybe the States too) ...Doesn't pay the same by a long shot, but you can move ( bid) after a term.
The recent ads in FLIGHT int (expressions of interest) were offering Direct entry FO, Pax fleet in Australia....and considdering that there are alot of Aussie SO, FOs in Hong Kong wanting to base at home, a new recruit going strait into a Brisbane base would be a real kick in the kazoo.

I cant really help with your original question, but I'd have to say EK is as good, or bad as the rest ...if you reed the other forums, no bed of roses anywhere

[Zomp]

tomuchwork,
so where are you now that you know so much about EK?

[EKPrisoner]

CX is a no-brainer.
As an S/O you will earn the same as an Emirates Captain.
2 years later you will earn 50-75% more or get bypass pay.
10 years later you will be on 3 times the pay.
And you can own property outright and after 7 years service you get a permanent resident visa that nobody will take away.

:{ (I want to go there too)

[Nolights-essential3]

......a CX SO...??? pays as much as an EK captain???
Good Christ, man!
....this is getting rather silly now ...
...wild statments like that are not adding credibility to your painting of the EK picture.
Go to the Harbour forum and bask in the dissatisfaction contained within, then get back to me and tell me the flavor of what you find...DECs, DEFOs 49ers. If you still think its a move worth taking, then dont ask why new EK guys 'never listen to good advice'

...and while I'm here, what's current the upgrade time for the fellas in CX? ...with the recent adds in FLIGHT for Direct entry and bases other than Honkers, quite awhile, huh ....sound familiar?

[tomuchwork]

@zomp

What you mean? You mean that EK for sure didn`t develop flying:) (because the brits together with the germans did:hmm: , at least you get the impression flying in and over this countries).

That the use a livery that as well enough other airlines use as well? What`s your point...

I am following various threads about EK and Qatar. I see on both sides a lot of complainers. Some complaints might be right, some other are propably from some angry F/Os missing out on upgrades, for reasons most likely just the airline and the F/O know.

JUST - to say Emirates is the only good place to go in the ME I personally find a bit snobistic. My opinion.

[EKPrisoner]

......a CX SO...??? pays as much as an EK captain???

Unfortunately its true, can somebody back me up here i dont have the scales to post.

[Özcan]

cathay pacific (passenger ops)
SO base £38,676
EK:
Capt base 24518 AED (roughly £3650 a month £43,000 a year)

according to PPJ-network, i don't know if EK or CX offers free housing or such and these digits probadly aren't very accurate

[Nolights-essential3]

C'mon !! ....EK captains get over 28K ...36K after top-ups for DECs is the current rumour

[donpizmeov]

Not so no-lights. A starter in the left seat is on between 24000 and 25000AED. the web site states 27000ishAED as a start pay, but that would be a 2nd year captain. If he were to take the accomodation allowance that would be another 9000AED per month. So thats just under a CX JFO pay wise. Of course the EK fella will be flying 900hrs a year of back of the clock flying, so saving for a long retirement is not required.

Don

[Cpt. Underpants]

CX S/O about HKD45000 per month basic plus HKD20000 housing = ~HKD65000 monthly, about USD8300. Taxed at 16% ~ USD7000.

[Igor37]

That doesn't sound right !!

From what I found CX SO starts with approx 386,550.00 but that's Hong Kong dollars !!!!!! Plus you take away, i think, 16% for MR. Tax Man !

So if I got it right that comes down to about 3500 USD per month . I guess that's more like it now .

Cheers ,

Igor...

[dessertdude]

EKPRISONER, think your mixed up a bit. Starting salary FIRST OFFICER Emirates, Basic plus housing is 27000 Dirham is net income US$7400. This is excluding Provident funds(12%), bonus, dental,medical, erp and child education. guess thats about right. As fare as I know thats not what an CX SO is making. Don,t know what EK Captain is making

[RINGAdingding]

In this part of the world A scale does not represent the longest serving members of the pilot work force but quite the opposite. This is whats on offer:}

First conversions

1USD =3.67 Dirhams
1Dirham=2.11 HKD

First year captain average 3 to 5 years at EK (C scaler) basic salary 24500 AED.

*O AED if in company accomodation (90percent of pilot workforce)
*minus 170 AED for medical if married and 0 kids(it is not free medical chaps)
*O benefit to you with O KIDS

You can avail yourself of company accomodation which is non reversible and BOOST your salary by 9600AED per month.BUT you will be on your own AND will definately use all of it if you decide to rent something at least as half as decent as what EMIRATES supply. SO dont count it as salary unless you decide to live in some sh***hole to save a few dids. In which case you will not like it here long.

Now then, last year the company introduced a B scale by introducing Direct entry Captains, the first year salary was not good enough so no suitable captains came. SO what to do!! what any GOOD manager should do. Introduce a better salary to attract the guys. Which is what they did BUT whoops not for everybody JUST for them!:ugh: So the 2005 DEC B scale was born!! Therefore DEC 2005 B scaler 0 years at EK move to the 5th year of the Captains scale on 28175 AED per month.:ok: Good stuff hey!!

Anyway needing over 100 DEcs this year but you guessed it money not getting those captains to come on B scale salaries so the talk of the town is the 2006 A SCALE for DECs straight in at circa 35000 to 36000AED per month.:mad: I am Ten years with the company and still am not near that.

Hears the cruncher.

Requirements are 10000 hours 4000 jet command above 55TONNES

Hands up any body else meeting those requirements at EK but are looking like needing 3 to 5 years plus to reach those salary levels!:mad:

so there it is chaps and chapesses crunch the numbers and compare.

KEEP RECOVERING:ok:

[ekwife]

Ringading - if you're going to ring your bell - get your facts straight pse.

you say "You can avail yourself of company accomodation which is non reversible and BOOST your salary by 9600AED per month."

This means that you take the company accommodation - then you definitely don't boost yr salary by 9600AED...

I think what he is trying to say is if you take the allowance instead of company accommodation - you get the allowance of 9600AED but then have to pay your own rent and your own utilities.

then you say "Now then, last year the company introduced a B scale by introducing Direct entry Captains, the first year salary was not good enough so no suitable captains came. SO what to do!! what any GOOD manager should do. Introduce a better salary to attract the guys. Which is what they did BUT whoops not for everybody JUST for them! So the 2005 DEC B scale was born!! Therefore DEC 2005 B scaler 0 years at EK move to the 5th year of the Captains scale on 28175 AED per month. Good stuff hey!!"

My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote.

I know this is a rumour forum but this rumour is not true!

[critical winge]

Quote
My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote.

Ans: thats the amount he tells you he gets, what about all his other wives around the world to support!:}

Quote
I know this is a rumour forum but this rumour is not true!

Ans: A Professional PILOT!! Rumour forum.:rolleyes:

CW

[halas]

Not sure about any "scales", but after three years as an FO and you cross over, the basic salary is DHM 27,000.

halas

[mensaboy]

There is nothing misleading or untruthful in what Ringading posted.
Ekwife... and I quote
''My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote''
If your are husband WAS a DEC....... then either he has quit or he is STILL a DEC. He will forever be a DEC until the day he quits.
Here are some of the affects of the DEC program which you persistently try to defend.
-low morale
-a huge increase in good pilots leaving EK
-a shocking increase in 'no shows' for courses
-a disturbing decline in suitable applicants
-an A, B and perhaps C payscale
-disunity within the pilot group
-an unsustainable increase in pilot workload
-one lawsuit
-an increase in detrimental health effects as a secondary result of the loss of suitable applicants
-a general mistrust in management's capabilities and truthfulness
-a lowering of the standard across the board (in addition recent DEC applicants who failed the interview are now being offered a job)
The DEC program is the worst of many bad policies that EK have instituted in the past 2 years.
This is not a slight on your hubby. Perhaps he is a decent human being and a good pilot. Do i blame him for the DEC policy? No.... unless of course he has no recognition of the bad affects it has had on the lives of over 1000 pilots and families at EK. If your attitude is a reflection of his, then i pity the F'O's who have to fly with him.
If you truly believe what you are defending then that is fine. We simply disagree. If you are attempting to lure others into joining EK as a means to improve your lifestyle and further improve your husbands lot in life, then I believe that is dishonorable.

[RINGAdingding]

EK WIFE

Maybe if your hubby had joined this year as a DEC he would be looking at 350000 dhs a month instead of 28000!

Upsetting isnt it!!:{ :{

KEEP RECOVERING:ok:

[RINGAdingding]

WHOOPS 350000 would be nice.

But correcting myself for all those exactabees 35000DHS:sad:

KEEP RECOVERING:ok:

[ekwife]

yes, my hubby is still a DEC with EK. Believe me, he too had his time of pursuing the captain's seat and had disappointments as well, but as a few people have pointed out, if you get the opportunity to get a DEC position, who is going to turn it down. We needed it for our family and I am sorry for those who feel that he has "taken" what was theirs, but that is life. I'm sorry too that you feel I have an "attitude" but I truly get annoyed at some of the posts posted sometimes.

I am not trying to lure anyone here - what for. It just irks me sometimes when the truth is stretched to look worse than it is. why? what is the idea behind some people biting the hand that feeds it, continually. It's not good and I know that there is no-one that you can go to with grievances without jeopardising your job, but we knew that before we came here and we accept it.

Ek is a great life for some and those who are unhappy here, must also realise that and not only see their side all the time without shooting down anyone who says that they are happy.

We are happy here - for sure there are some things that could be improved on but for us our glass is half full.

[Cyberbird]

well- Ekgirl - just my thouhgts...

you're stating "if you get the opportunity to get a DEC position, who is going to turn it down. We needed it for our family and I am sorry for those who feel that he has "taken" what was theirs, but that is life"

... which is really selfish, unprofessionell, disgraceful an purely egoistic!

I know some Captains (high calibre guys - with backbone and minimum moral views !!) , who would NEVER accept such a biased offer - thus shafting the hard-working F/Os their, by grabbing THEIR commands- by just exploiting the opportunity- that's as low, as it can get !

We (Senior F/Os with massive Command-Experience as well) get shafted by those selfish guys, who just can't get enough, and don't let other pilots get their earned (!!!) share as well in due time!

We (Me!!) have also families to feed, and we agreed to wait our time, but now we've been overlooked in favour of those blokes ! ...after serving 4 hard years in EK with > 10.000 hrs as well !!

Thus, the moral of our pilots workforce is even more deteriorated by that, as your "hubby"
(how sweet....) had just to come here to harvest other pilots seed! Great !!

Ek is definitively on their way down the drain by allowing this - the painting is on the wall!
Sorry - but i'get really bitter, if i have to imagine to fly with one of these DEC-blokes in the nearest future ...
But - Hey, don't worry, my CVs are sent out already!!
I might even consider now, taking my old - left hands seat - job on a MD 83 in europe up again ...

That's what you "hubby" - and the alikes - have achieved in EK ! Thanx for that !! :yuk:

Tomorrow, i will at least join the real flying fun, by attending the Red-Bull-Air-Race in AUH -
Anybody's down there t'morrow as well !?

Remember: "Fly fast, Fly low, Fly left" - wasn't it !?! Well- Reno -those were the days ... Ahhhhh

[zhu_tou]

so,if you had opportunity to join EK as DEC 4 years ago you would have turned it down?

[ratpoison]

but for us our glass is half full.
or possibly half EMPTY. :p

[145qrh]

Half full or half empty, some might say is there even a glass????

Q - if a woman says something and there isn't a man there to hear it is she still wrong????

[airbus757]

Cyberbird says...

"I know some Captains (high calibre guys - with backbone and minimum moral views !!) , who would NEVER accept such a biased offer - thus shafting the hard-working F/Os their, by grabbing THEIR commands- by just exploiting the opportunity- that's as low, as it can get !"

And then goes on to say...

"But - Hey, don't worry, my CVs are sent out already!!
I might even consider now, taking my old - left hands seat - job on a 737 in europe up again ..."

It seems to me that there might be some "hard working f/o's" back at that company in Europe. You don't have a problem going back there and taking their hard earned spot in the left seat.

Does anyone else see that this guy is full of crap.

He also says...

We (Me!!) have also families to feed, and we agreed to wait our time, but now we've been overlooked in favour of those blokes ! ...after serving 4 hard years in EK with > 10.000 hrs as well !!

With those credentials you should be a captain already or have you ticked off too many with that big mouth of yours?

7

[Gillegan]

My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote.
I know this is a rumour forum but this rumour is not true!

ekwife,
Your husbands salary may well be less than the amount quoted. The pay packages for DEC's were not consistent and ranged from Dh 25,000 to a high of Dh 30,000. It was supposed to be based on experience but even that yardstick was not applied consistently.

This is the point that some are trying to make, there is no consistency here. While the company may very well be trying to offer DEC's what's on the website, most have no doubt that should their efforts be unsuccessful, all bets will be off and a better offer will be made while completely ignoring the long serving pilots already here.

[turtleneck]

Cyberbird.
Just tell me the difference between ekwife’s hubby and yourself, the moment you are back home taking the left hand seat away from another hard working FO of that company, having a family aswell and having awaited his time just as long.
What were your words again at the beginning of your post?
“... which is really selfish, unprofessionell, disgraceful an purely egoistic!”
The double standard thing, which reigns this part of the world, must have got to you real fast.
It’s up to the individual to run his own career out in today’s jungle. Definitely not to others to do it in your favour if the companies shaft us. YOU made the (apparently) wrong decision at the time when you signed an open contract. We’ll all get shafted eventually, even hubby might, but then again we all signed our own contracts.
Almost all FO’s at EK consider their career here transitory. Once they will have achieved their fourth stripe, they’ll eventually move on. You can bet that none of them intends to do that by moving back in line on the right hand seat!
Drop us all a post right here if your highness in calibre has done this one day.
I will take back every word I wrote here.
ttn

[Payscale]

We joined as F/Os because, for some reason or other they didnt offer us DEC. Who in their right mind would turn down a DEC job over a F/O job with the same airline.

Get off your high horse boys...

The day you leave EK, you too will be looking at adds that say "DEC NEEDED.."

Basic salary for new capt is 27000 AED, not 24500 AED as stated.

I dont agree that DEC should get more than me.....but that is the risk of getting a non unionized job. We are all hired on an individual basis.

[plovdiv]

My husband was a DEC and I can tell you that his salary was less than the amount you quote.
I know this is a rumour forum but this rumour is not true![/QUOTE]

As Gillegan comments some DECs who were less keen to join EK were seduced by an 'improving' contract. There was a degree of negotiation available with a basic package of up to DH30,000+ on offer at the time.

Those DECs who joined on DH24,000+ undersold themselves in their desparation to join EK

EkWife has the smell of a Brit, perhaps the thought of GBP1,000+/month after tax in lost salary will make her cup seem less than half full.

She mentions that her family knew what it was joining, but so did everybody who joined 1992-2004, they were joining an airline with a seniority system that did not include DECs.

The company has overlooked many competent First Officers with DEC qualifications simply because it is cheaper on paper to employ a DEC, an upgrade First Officer requires replacement so the training costs are doubled.

How quickly EK has moved from being praised and lauded on Pprune to now being despised and ridiculed.

It is hard to see how the A380 can be trained for as it will take crews off a line program that is already undercrewed and barely working. Increasing numbers of people are leaving and not enough people are joining.

Drastic and expensive action is needed now to save this airline from a big fall.

[MR8]

When Cyberbird says: I might even consider now, taking my old - left hands seat - job on a 737 in europe up again ...
I don't consider that the same as a DEC.

I'm in a same situation. When I left my previous company a few years ago, I was in a let seat after some years as a F/O, climbing up the seniority system. After my resignation, the people running the show told me that they were more than happy with my work for the company, and if I ever for any reason felt I wanted to come back, I could take up my old position as a Captain.
Although it is a 'grey area', this old company knows me as good as I know them, I've been working for them for several years, did a training as F/O and did my upgrade with them. Also, there wouldn't be many F/O's with my experience flying for that company... Therefore, I don't think going back to a previous employer where you did serve a certain amount of time before can be regarded the same as a DEC case.

MR8

[turtleneck]

Plovdiv:
The EK contract didn't include a seniroty list, nor excluded DEC's. Read into that whatever you want, they will read it their way.
MR8:
You're applying your point of view, the FO's back in UK will most probably look at it differently..... At least if you accept that your point of view should apply there, you should accept a DEC's point of view here, if you don't want to be accused of applying double standards.

I am not defending DEC's, they act like almost everyone of us would act. It's a fact of aviation that some companies just do it this way. We should persuade them with valuable arguments that our way would be cheaper in the long run. We should ALL stop flying on days off even if it pays a fast buck, in the long run you certainly get less. We should stop flying into discretion, call in sick when fatigued etc. Flights need to be cancelled for lack of crew, then things might change because the incompetent managers will start beeing asked questions and they might turn for our help. We should persuade AS and AAR that they'll find FO's much easier when lowering the requirement to 2500h. These guys would start tomorrow and should be suitable enough. They will need longer to get the 8000h for command, thus wont bitch that quick to change seat, are transferable to the 380 (because they stay longer). Transfer Airbus skippers to the 777 (preferably the only 330 rated) they need about 15 productive days less training than DEC's (+5 less for the only 330 having no 340 conversion). Upgrade the many ready on the Bus to replace them, Bus sims have the capacity, at least more than the 777 for the accelerated command farce. The system would run smoother and CHEAPER (you moron beancounters!!!!)

Bring in other ideas and arguments, but stop lashing out on DEC's who are already here, it's useless.
ttn

[MR8]

ttn,

completely agree with you. I am against the company taking in DEC's, but can't hold anything against an individual taking up this opportunity.

In case AS or AAR can't live with 2500hr F/O's, why not make them S/O's; you would be able to find people as S/O, suitable for the long range operations. A cheaper way of getting 3 man flightdecks on several flights which are now operated to the limit with 2 pilots. Also, like you say, these people would need at least about 5 years before they have 6000hrs for command. Would solve the F/O shortage and make operations cheaper - why didn't they think about that one yet???

MR8

[plovdiv]

ttn

My point was more to do with EkWifes' statement that she knew what she was coming to.

She would be correct if she is pointing out that she expects constantly moving goalposts etc. But I don't think she was. Presumably she also knew that they wouldn't be the most popular animal on the farm either.

Having said that, not much changed from around '95 until about a year after the arrival of CK. We were paid fairly, paid just about enough and the non contractual seniority system worked well. EK became an airline that people aspired to work for. Can't say that now.

And if DECs and their wives put themselves up for a lashing, which they do, then people are going to lash.

As individuals they are, with some exceptions, good guys, as a concept they are despised. That's just the way it is.

[Quod Boy]

Any DEC who once belonged to a previous airline that had a seniority list,and upgrade policy knows exactly what they have done by coming to EK on whichever scale they are on.24-30 K whatever.TCK put this flawed policy in place against all advice,it was divide & conquer from the start.
Each to their own,however seeing DECs here from my old airline who were members of the union and fought ANY attempt to degrade their Ts &Cs then,yet alone mention DEC is laughable hypocrisy.Some DECs are very able some are extremely average operators,yet feel thy ae a credit to EK and CRM nightmares,it is this lack of standardisation in the DECs that will be the Achilles heel.I see it time and again in the simulator and on line.
The DEC programme was not temporary as we were told,it is a FACT of EK life now but has IMHO been a huge mistake in the damage it has done to the workforce which is even more uncohesive than it was before.EK has lost credibility we are guns for hire in a dog eat dog airline that is sliding rapidly.
It is very man for himself(herself EK wife),sad but very true.Time will tell but EK is the loser in the long run for self inflicted damage.
The pub awaitsQB

[EKPrisoner]

I have 14000 hrs 4500 command 767 and im stuck on the friggin Airbus with no future ,no command in the forseeable future and no scores less than fours ,:* and im not allowed to leave and come back , but believe me i am leaving ......................

[Payscale]

............I'll bet you dont..:hmm:

[tomuchwork]

...interesting that nowadays FO`s are deciding if a commander is good or not....Maybe EK should ask some of you guys selecting DEC`s :8 . Allways the same, there is always a conspiration theory...:suspect: ....

[plovdiv]

Well, you sound like someone a few First Officers might have an opinion about.

And its toOmuchwork.

[Jack D]

Plodiv , an obscure industrial town in Bulgaria...need I say more.

[plovdiv]

You could say that you are a DEC posing as a First Officer who has spent the last few months posting platitudes about aging DECs in an attempt to make yourself appear respectable.

And why not?

A DEC from a fading European non EEC flag carrier (but not your flag). Spoken highly of, by the way.

Need I say more?

[Zomp]

tomuchwork,
you were with lauda and swiss? don't think so.

[readytocopy]

I have to agree with EKwife. We all say we wouldn't do it, but given a chance to go DEC onto a 777 or Airbus we would all do it. To increase our pay, job security and marketabilty of ourselves.

Emirates is there to do business and make money and will do whatever it takes, hire whoever it wants to sit in the left seat if they think safety is being compromised. It is their airline and we are all expates here.

Not to defend them, I personally think they have not given the current FO's enough credibility in doing the job from the other seat. The day when we get away from this BS ..."lowest common denominator" and see that some of our FO's were very experienced Captains, or perhaps very experiences FO's from the States, Canada or wherever and can fly circles around some captains, then only will the upgrades happen.

I hear that and it irks me. I am not a local cadet pilot that started flying yesterday.

Its funny if someone left here and went back to europe and got a DEC on a 737, flew 3 years could come back here and be worthy of the left seat.

[uncle buzz]

I had asked this question some time ago, where does the real problem lie at EK? Is it the housing, EK pays for it and the bills. Sure it might not be the place you desire but living in a villa for free you can sock away a lot of money.

Schedule, does it suck? Over worked and under paid? DEC's , sure I can relate to that.

My opinion, tax free place to live and a good provident fund you can certainly retire. Sure it's not like it used to be but it seems to be like that every where. EK seems a lot more stable than some other places in Europe and North America.

You can travel to Europe easily or where ever you want to go. Schools seem pretty good and a new emerging city in the world. So can someone please explain why EK is messed up.

I have an interview coming up and I see more postives in EK than negatives. I just want to make a few bucks like everyone else and fly some good equitment and travel around with the wife every once and a while to some new spots.

[davidletterman]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha More people from lalaland.......... you certainly have a 'buzz" going, don't you?

[Zomp]

Buzzmeister,
it seems you didn't make your homework, you must have a lousy job to give it up just like that.
There are so many negative stories on pprune but you people do not listen anyway after 6 months or even earlier you will regret it, can't wait to read your posts then.

[harry the cod]

Buzz

For sure things aren't what they used to be but you'll realise it's the same bunch of guys posting the same negativity constantly. We all have our gripes here, and believe me there are many, but not so bad that everyone is leaving on mass.........at least not yet anyway!

What surprises me is that the regular 'bad boys' are still in EK and STILL posting month after month after month. Guess it can't be THAT bad then after all, eh! :suspect:

Harry

[MTOW]

I read and can pass over most comments here, but I simply couldn't resist replying to this gem ...and travel around with the wife every once and a while to some new spots.Maaaate, let me assure you that you're in for a big disappointment in that department. Getting your wife on a flight just about anywhere on the EK network is damn near impossible unless you're willing to line up cap in hand for days on end - with all the other staff who are trying to do the same thing. (You may not be aware that the jump seat for the missus, even when you're the operating pilot, is simply out of the question, with no exceptions.)

And staff travel is (the?) one area that EK does respect seniority. As a new joiner, you and your wife will be in line after everyone with a start date before yours.

I have a mate who once worked as a recruiting officer in the Air Force. I remember him saying to me that all prospective recruits had one thing in common. They simply tuned out to any information he offered them that was in any way negative. When he told them the job would be disruptive to their home life etc, they simply didn't hear him.

He said thay all had one other thing in common. To a man, twelve months later, they'd be screaming that they hadn't been warned about all those things he told them about before they signed on the dotted line and took Lizzie's shilling.

[Kpt40]

Buzz, its really all about expectations.
Ek may not be what it was, but I wonder what airline is. From my perspective in the USA, we are on a spiral of less pay and security for what we do.
Perhaps SIA is a better deal , if you have the 50000 usd to get the job.
Cathay, great company, and good pay . Good luck getting it. For us in the USA,options are limited. Everything you make is taxed, and your pension is probably on life support if not dead already.
A first year Ek F/O makes about 5ooo/month.by my estimation, based on where you live(US State) I would have to make 7200 usd/month- not including houseing to see that type of take home pay.- not including houseing. Starting pay at Continental Airlines is about 3000 usd, less tax.In 7 years one would make 737 Captain, and get about 140/hr.- thats 10500 usd gross, or about 7500 usd take home pay.
Now I know you are not from the USA, but the general principle applies.
Again, was the job better in the past- yes. I would have loved to fly long haul for Pan Am. Is Ek the job for you? Only you can judge that. But, based on the trend everywhere, it is one of the better ones. The comments that even the complainers are still around holds weight.
That doesn't mean that Ek is perfect, it just means that they didn't apply to the better jobs- didn't get called to the better jobs...or ,as I think- they couldn't find that elusive better job because it doesn't exist.

[Kpt40]

(You may not be aware that the jump seat for the missus, even when you're the operating pilot, is simply out of the question, with no exceptions.)

Is this done in any airline?

[fatigueflyer]

To all the blokes whinging, no good posting your problems here as pprune will not get you another job. Better to get that job where the grass is definitely greener and come back with some positive posts. You can't have it all ie. tax free pay, housing, education, P Fund, wide body aircraft etc AND still whinge about this place. I have posted a few opinions of the place and so have others. Bottom line is get a piece of paper out and draw a line down the middle. On the left, pros, on the right, cons. Simple really. Does it all add up at the bottom of the sheet? If yes, stay, if no, then start getting your CVs out. Man, can this be any simpler!!!! :confused:

[Eisenhower]

I understand that some people have a lot of things to complain about EK, but so I read in other forums, including things about CX. That brings me back to the original question. If EK has so many problems, then which would the ideal airline be ??

[flynhigh]

No one talks about Air Arabia so I would say they are the best place to go. I have seen alot of post about EK, Qatat, GF, but not once about Air Arabia.

[Kpt40]

flynhigh- No one talks about Air Arabia so I would say they are the best place to go. I have seen alot of post about EK, Qatat, GF, but not once about Air Arabia.
- that logic is questionable :8
Ike- thats an unanswerable question. Every airline has its problems. Every compant has its share of "screw the pilot" itis. The trick is finding the better fit and lifestyle for you. That may be totally different than the guy who posts here.
If you find this company thats all things for all pilots, let me know and I will send my resume in. Until then, I will go with what I believe is the best course of action for me based on what I know, and what is told to me by people I know. Beyond that, you may want to reread the Pprune disclaimer.
God, I feel like obi wan kenobi...trust your feelings Ike:O

[Eisenhower]

:) May the force be with you !!

[Keep discovering]

YAWN :bored:

Same old gang ( scum bags anywhere!), that are going on and on and on about how bad the working environment and T & Cs are at EK. And the best part is that these S Beez stay put in Dubai and don't leave EK while advising others to stay away ( ulterior motives eh!).

EK is as good or as bad as any other fast growing large corporation/company. So I guess there never is a perfect working environ anywhere.

A word of advice to all would be entrants at EK, ignore the scum bags and join the company. Let me assure you that you shall not regret this decision.

Oh and one other thing Adel Al Redha ( Executive Vice President Engineering & Operations) and Alan Stealey are doing a fine job.

:ok:

[bigilla]

Interesting post indeed "Keep Discovering". I can tell from the last line in your message you must be in management........
Go on, print your name. Might get you a promotion.

[Shake]

Keep Discovering... back again.

For all that may not know this pest be warned. He is a wind=up merchant of the worst kind. Once sussed, as most of his posts give him away eventually, he reappears as unwelcome as he was before.

If you base any decision on what he has to say then you deserve everything you get.

[Keep discovering]

Shake :mad:

Que sera sera......

You bet the joiners deserve everything they'll get at EK. Your futile effort to keep all the EK goodies for you & your gang will just not bear fruit.

When are you leaving EK?:p

[harry the cod]

Argggggh..............now I know who it is! It's that cheesy smeggy whatsit that was banned a while back. :}

Harry

[Shake]

He is also using 'EK shadow' currently haunting another thread...

[Kanoknuahaha]

Try Cathay Pacific.

Or Air Maldives:ok:

[Desert Diner]

First, I´d like to thank all people who took their time and posted on threads about EK. For sure, things look a lot rosey from the outside. The thing is, though: I live in a 3rd world country, where I am not satisfied with my job (A320 F/O). Neither my wage is good, nor I have much time home. Management is also close to this "don´t disturb me" approach I read many complaining about. So, for me, going to EK, even though it is not as good as I thought, and being advised by people who work there, would substantially increase my income and family relation.

My question is: If not EK, where to ?? Note that going to an US major or Europe is a no/no due to my citizenship.

So why are you asking? If things are so bad for you where you are and think EK will be better then go and apply :ok: instead of asking the same old questions here, especialy if you don't like the answers and advice you are being given.

Remember:
We are all human.
We are all capable of making mistakes.
We only listen to what we want to listen to.

Good luck

[gomlic]

I am a parent of 4 little kids and interested in living in Dubai (and wife too). I think that if you search different life styles and other crime statistics around the world you would find yourself in a very ugly world:} !!! You have to make your life the best possible. This may help http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/ae.html is a nice way to investigate any country, and to compare too!

DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY GOOD THING TO SAY ABOUT LIVING IN DUBAI?

[Fugazi]

Been here for 12 years & I & the family love Dubai! No really! :) We grab every opportunity Dubai has to offer, & think it's magic. Sitting at home every night watching the TV, or reading PPrune 24/7 is going to drive you crazy & make you depressed no matter where you live in the world. Surely it's not always about the money? Life's short, and you can't take it with you. Only drawback is having to go to work! :yuk:

[SecurID]

A serious word of warning. Do not believe anything that you read about Dubai in the press or any other official publication. There is a lot that happens here that is not reported and is 'hidden.' I know that this goes on elsewhere, but do not believe that Dubai is Nirvana, Utopia or however else you want your 'Heaven' to be described.

There are more murders than are reported. Source? I am close friends with a senior member of staff at the British Embassy. Although this is primarily 'in-fighting' between Russians, Pakistanis etc. the fact is that there is violent crime here, it just gets hushed up.

There are more robberies that get covered up by the authorities due to them not wanting the 'real Dubai' to get written about. Source? As above, as well as victims of two recent crimes.

Traffic is an absolute nightmare. Source? I suffer from it myself daily. Just search on the web for 'Traffic Dubai.'

Prostitution is rampant. Not even in Bangkok will you go into a bar and five girls walk up to you and ask you if you would like a F$@k. Yes, there are clean bars but there are a lot of sleazy bars. Where in the world, the Muslim world for goodness' sake, can you enter a club that is solely there for the purpose of providing prostitutes? Do a Google search on The Cyclone and York Hotel in Dubai! Of course, this might be an attraction to some of you.

Other than Beach (although they are dissapearing rapidly as beach front developments are being built) and Golf, there is little in the way of outdoor activities. Sports are not that well catered for but if you like shopping, then this is the place for you! We have more malls per square mile than anywhere I have ever been to! But careful of the prices, a lot of things here are now more expensive than the US and UK.

Just as many western civilisations were built by slaves, so is Dubai today. The general workforce here are treated appalingly, the salaries are really bad and their working and living conditions terrible.

Dubai is a relatively good place to start a family, to educate small kids, but teenagers suffer here as there is so little to do.

Look, I am not trying to dissuade anyone from coming here. I welcome with open arms other pilots in order that our work load can start to decrease, but I would be wrong in supporting Dubai as some kind of model city. The EK and Dubai PR machines are very powerful. The pages of the holiday brochures are testament to this as they show the beach hotels as they were three years ago, prior to the building of the various projects along the coast. But one thing that cannot be ignored is that despite the numbers of tourists Dubai welcomes every year, very few are coming back for a second holiday.

[Fugazi]

SecurID...Surely you are having a laugh?! "Little in the way of outdoor activities" :confused: Well only yesterday morning I rode my horse, followed by the 9 hole par 3 at the Monty. Had a sail in the afternoon. Played tennis this morning. (horse lame) Later today will waterski with the kids. Tonight more golf, followed by a desert camp tomorrow night with the trial bikes. And it's not even the weekend!! Maybe then I'll go for a snow ski, or go kitesurfing. (In fact I'm lying as I have to fly to London on Friday:yuk: ) Let's be objective and balanced here. :) As for the prostitution well the missus & I are out all the time and have never been confronted with this. Certainly not at Madinat, any of the Golf clubs, or any of hotels on the Sufouh strip. Also have to completely disagree with "very few tourists coming back for a second holiday" The vast majority do! Check with any of the Hotel GM's on this one.
Will agree though that the traffic is a nightmare, there is carnage on the roads, and that some workers do get treated very badly. :(

[Desert Diner]

Fugazi,

Would you mind enlightening the dear readers on the cost of all these activities that you partake in? :bored:

Whether, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar or even Saudi. There are plenty of activities you can participate in to basicaly block yourself from the outside world. Thats what people do here to stay sane.

The drawback is that that they cost lots of money. The days of comming out here to save for retirement have well passed.

[Eisenhower]

@ DesertM2005

I do like all the answers being given. I really appreciate them, as stated before. The thing is that, when I move, I want to go to a place that is substantially better then where I am. Otherwise, it will be like changing 6 for half a dozen.

I am also following forum about companies like CX; there is a lot being said about them too. It up to us to read and filter things. There is no perfect company, as there are no perfect people. EK is one of the companies I think would be nice working for. So is Cathay and Singapore. I am trying to see if there are others that I can consider and the draw backs with each of them.

[shaggin yoke]

I spent a good few years in Dubai and it is true there is a lot to do. All of the aforementioned and more!!

The problem is on an EK Captains salary with a couple of sprogs you will NOT be able to afford them. If you throw all care of financial responsibility for your retirement and your kids tertiary education then you can enjoy some of them. 2000 dhms a day does not go that far when you are playing golf riding horses owning a 4x4 and taking the mssus out to the al suffoh Hotels and the Madinat. Dinner will cost you 30% of your daily wage.

Get real my friend and for F£$s sake grow up:yuk:

[gomlic]

:confused: Thank you everybody!!!