Radio Failure In The Hold

[FlyingRat]

A student asked me this question the other day.

You enter a hold at an airfield at 4500', there are two aircraft below you. You are all in IMC. The airfield does not have radar.

ATC tell you to stay in the hold and await further clearance. No Expected Approach Time is given.

Then you have a full radio failure, can't hear & can't talk. :uhoh:

What do you do?

I have my own ideas but was wondering anyone knew what the 'official line' might be.

[airpilot]

Hi Mate,

If your in the hold and have a radio failure do the necessaries which are squawk 7600 and perhaps before that check radio set etc. If not in receipt on an approach time you must leave the hold and get your self visual. I suppose you would then land at the most suitable airfield and hopefuly this could be the one below you.

[DFC]

If you have aircraft holding below and no EAT then I believe that you are in the situation of being told "delay not determined".

In that situation, you leave the airspace on the published route. Check out the local radio failure procedures.

Of course if VMC then simply continue VMC and land where you decide is best.

While I know you said the airfield does not have radar, a 7600 squawk will in many cases alert D+D who will contact the relevant ATC unit and let them know what is happening.

The one thing that I would not do in that situation is descend in the hold.

Regards,

DFC

[Check Airman]

1. What if it's impossible to get to VMC?

2. What if u r not in an en-route hold. Suppose the hold is somewhre near the start of the approach?

[veloo maniam]

Call the Tower or ACC on your handphone. It worked for me.Remember it's an emergency situation.

[airpilot]

What if it is impossible to get to VMC? If we are talking about an IMC qualification I wouldn't be planning an approach into an airfield that we simply couldn't get into. A good 1000' cloud base will allow you quite comfortable in the event of rt failure to get visual and sort yourself out.

Even during IR training you wouldn't be planning an approach where you simply couldn't make it.

If the hold is near the approach, you still need to leave the hold but dont descend in the direction of the approach. Just get down below hold minimum as soon as poss.

[Whopity]

This is all very hypothetical. If you are flying IFR you should have two radios so the loss of one is not a major event! If you have no EAT then you are most likely a training flight, in which case I hope you would have a good knowledge of the local weather and cloudbase. If you are SE then the cloudbase should be at a sensible level so that you can cope with an engine failure and can effect a Forced Landing below cloud, if not you should not be there!
If you really have lost both radios then you may have a total electrics failure in which case you will want to leave the hold, leave controlled aispace if you are in it, descend when clear of the hold, initially to safety altitude and thence visually until you are below cloud. If you are still IMC at the SA, your only options are to transit to an area where you can descend or, to descend using a topo into an area of known low ground untill you break cloud. If you don't break cloud then you judgement was pretty poor for getting in that situation to start with.

If a student poses this sort of question, use it to determie the factors that should stop you putting yourself in that position in the first place.

I do know a pilot who lost his radio and flew triangles as per the radio failure procedure but ATC did not notice!

[FlyingRat]

I think the sceniro was for a hold before an approach i.e. not en-route.

My thinking was squawk 7600 & leave the hold/controlled airspace for an area where you could get into VMC. The mobile idea is a good one though.

[veloo maniam]

Hi there, there are established radio failure procedures for every airport.
Always find out such procedures before flying into one. They are always available in the AIP.In your case you have mentioned that no Expected Approach Time has been given. Not to worry, the ATCer will always abide by his/her R/T failure procedure. He/She will clear the two guys below you asap knowing very well that by a particular time u will be carrying out established RCF (radio comm failure) procedures.What u won't know is whether the ATCer is able to read u or not. Just sqawk on 7600. The ATCer will do the rest.I am not a pilot but an ATCO. I work in an a/field where a mixed mode of acft does its training( From B747's to C172's). Whenever they come in to the tower, I will always brief them the RCF procedures for my a/field and will also provide the tel no for the tower and also my own mobile no, just in case.Hope this helps.Situational awareness helps a lot.:ok:

[FlyingRat]

Cheers for that all good info.

[Rivet gun]

If you have aircraft holding below and no EAT then I believe that you are in the situation of being told "delay not determined".
DFC

Inreresting point.

If you have the AERAD Europe and Middle East supplement the procedures are in the COM section. In IMC, generally if you have been given "delay not determined" you have to divert, otherwise you decend in the hold at your destination to the lowest holding level then carry out the published instrument approach procedure.

The question I am not sure about is what constitutes "delay not determined". Must it be specifically stated, or is it to be assumed just because you have been instructed to remain in the hold with no EAT given? With most things in ATC if something is not explicitly stated, it should not be assumed.

[goddammit]

I have to agree the RT fail Procedures don't seem to cater for this very situation, but i think th closest fit is para 3.2.4.1 (e) and (F)

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2010103.PDF

(e) On reaching the appropriate designated landing aid serving the destination aerodrome, begin further descent at the last
acknowledged EAT. If no EAT has been acknowledged, the descent should be started at the ETA calculated in (d) (i),
above, or as close as possible to this time. If necessary, remain within the holding pattern until the minimum holding level,
published for the facility, has been reached. The rate of descent in holding patterns should not be less than 500 ft per
minute. If 'Delay not determined' has been given, do not attempt to land at the destination aerodrome, divert to the alternate
destination specified in the current flight plan or another suitable airfield.
(f) Carry out the notified instrument approach procedure as specified for the designated navigational aid and, if possible, land
within 30 minutes of the EAT or the calculated ETA. When practical, pilots should take account of visual landing aids and
keep watch for instructions that may be issued by visual signals from the ground.

As for 'delay not determined', if they haven't said it then one isn't in that situation.

[jayteeto]

Many moons ago in my RAF days, us young 'sprogs' were regularly tested on these types of questions to try and promote lateral thinking. I was thick of course, but remember tales of getting around radio failures. One pilot managed to get a phone patch on HF radio and got a talkdown into Belfast via BT at portishead. Some VOR/DME beacons allow(ed) voice to be recieved over the ident, so listen out. (southampton VOR uses this??). Mobile phones or even the passenger satphone system fitted to some jets, modern day datalinks to company HQ so they can give ATC a call etc etc.

[FullyFlapped]

Fish the backup handheld transceiver out of the flight bag !

FF :ok:

[waldopepper42]

Things may be different in the US, but when I did my FAA IR I was taught that before accepting the hold you should always receive an EFC (Expect Further Clearance) time. If the radio fails (only the comms, of course), then you should continue as per your flight plan on reaching the EFC. Published procedures override, naturally.

Was my instructor correct, or is this BS?