Takeoff attitude

[LEM]

During a check, I elected to use full thrust because of gusty winds.

Fine so far.

Than this guy started to bark at me because I didn't limit the pitch to 15 degrees.

According to him, with potential windshear, I should have kept 15 degrees of pitch until roughly 1500ft.

This is bul*****, I think.

He must have been shocked in the past by a bad encounter...

I'm not a "science-only pilot", as W.Heller said, but I'm not gonna buy this habit of flattening the takeoff profile when all the books say the initial pitch attitude is 15°, but after liftoff the Flight Director becomes the primary pitch reference.
(F/D called for 22 degrees, I stopped at 20!)

:yuk:

LEM

[N1 and ITT]

Just recently we asked ourselves the same question... Why not take the advantage of the altitude gain due to the commanded FD-pitch of 20°, 22° or even 25° before the potential WS kicks in? Anyhow: we didn't recall a specific pitch limit on TO.

And how about you flap limiting speeds if keeping the pitch at or below 15°?

And how about reaching 2nd segment requirements?

And so on...

Hmm, this guys is outaline...

N1

[Intruder]

Let him bark!

You made a conscious decision to optimize the airplane's performance based on real-time conditions. Apparently you were light enough that you could attain BOTH altitude and airspeed in the gusty (i.e., potential windshear) conditions.

If you did not explicitly violate your FHB or regulations, do something unsafe for your airplane/configuration, or exceed some limitation, you appear to have made a reasonable decision. That is what you're paid to do!

OTOH, the check airman is paid to ensure you know "the book" and "do it by the book." If you made a conscious decision to deviate (even by a small amount) from the strict procedures, you owe it to him to brief it in advance (e.g., "Gusts are strong enough to indicate possible windshear. I'm going to use procedures for forecast windshear [full thrust and increased VR], rotate initially to 15 deg max, and take any increase in airspeed above the normal V2+10 until 1500 AGL. Flap limit speed should not be a factor."). Then he can squawk all he wants about it, but you used your PIC authority to adjust the procedures for the conditions, and can justify any minor deviations from "book numbers."

[alf5071h]

[b]LEM[/] The instructor may have a common misunderstanding of the term ‘windshear’. There are several references which define that windshear conditions exist with gusts greater than 15 kts; this is technically correct but in some instances this is incorrectly coupled with ‘microburst’ downdraughts which involve different conditions.

For turbulence related / gusty windshear conditions, precautions such a full power should be sufficient. It is important to be aware of the conditions; i.e. preparedness and thinking ahead. The published speeds provide a good but not a complete margin, from stall warning. The certification assumptions should ensure safety in most cases. Speed is the primary reference and the FD will be adequate provided the FD mode is speed referenced – not pitch, but always follow manufactures recommendations on maximum pitch angles particularly if at light weight.

Where microburst conditions exist or the conditions conducive to a microburst are identified then there are significant threats to safe flight. The first consideration is to delay take off. If it is considered safe to take off then several precautions should be considered; see references below.
When still on the runway and during lift off, higher speeds and lower attitudes may be used. I consider these to be emergency procedures where the aircraft has encountered an unexpected microburst and the aircraft has passed V1 (a poor decision to start the take off). Thereafter altitude provides greater safety; thus climb quickly using the recommended speeds, but maintaining awareness of the microburst conditions. If a microburst is encountered then flight near stall warning provides the best compromise between speed and a safe altitude; then in these circumstances the pitch attitude probably has to be lowered just to prevent stall warning.
See this incident: Windshear – an example of a successful recovery – the crew followed SOPs. (www.fly-safely.org/story.asp?id=32)

Further information may be found in FAA Advisory Circulars (www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameset ), search for ‘AC00-54 Pilot Windshear Guide’, and ‘AC00-30B Atmospheric Turbulence Avoidance’.

[oldebloke]

something else that hasn't been passed on..In the early days of WINDSHEAR recovery it was generally established thet the 15degree pitch was the best compromise for staying airborne (ground clearance)and stall recovery..Keeping in mind that in those days(60's) the power/weight ratio was less than todays twins.Today the flight director will pitch you up 17-22 degrees easily,but just swiftly direct you to level off ,if required.
As an aside in the UA 'unusual attitude recovery programme 'of a few years ago there was a scenario of a noise abatement climb into the 22DEgree pitch area,suffering an engine failure and noting the recovery procedure.To control the a/c one had to pitch down first ,to recover speed ,thence apply Rudder to keep straight...I gather at 22Degree one lost the airspeed rapidly resulting in insufficient Rudder control(remember the A330 Testing Accident at Toulouse)..Ergo once one's in windshear maybe one should modify the attitude regardless of the Flt/Director????:confused:

[411A]

Some types have in the AFM a restriction on pitch attitude after takeoff, regardless of flight director commands, with full takeoff power used, especially at lighter weights.
On the standard body Lockheed TriStar this is 17 degrees.
Recommendation in this case is to just accept the higher speeds until flap retraction heights are achieved.
When in doubt, check the AFM.

[anybodyatall]

411A hits the nail on the head once again. (some types having restrictions)

LEM... what aircraft was this on? (your profile doesn't indicate)

[PRNAV1]

Some aircraft have a survival mode built into the sytem. FD will command an attitude to best suet the situation for a safe speed and best climb out.

....my 2 pence.

[LEM]

That was a b 734.

[LLuke]

I'd go for 15 degrees, till speed reaches V2+20. More than 20 degrees pitch doesn' t look healthy (wouldn' t it be difficult to recover from loss of thust on both engines, jammed flight controls, engine seizure, etc...) then again maybe I was too long on the Fokker 50 :-)

[Charles Darwin]

I did some serious time on the B734. IMHO you were absolutely 100% right. Get the altitude. In order not to exceed flap speed with only 15° pitch up, you need either retract the flaps quickly og reduce power...not so good option in windshear conditions.

If memory serves me correctly the F/D directs you to maintain speed up to v2 + 20, any less speed will be maintained down to V2.

So, let him bark. :ok:

[Piltdown Man]

I can understand where he is coming from, but it would also be reasonable for him to show you where in your company's manuals this advice comes from. I presume that he also ignored your brief because he didn't pick up on you not briefing a "non-standard" pitch on departure.