EK or not EK this is the problem... and you are not helping!!

[furbpilot]

I did the interview, I got the call, I signed the contract and I should join soon.
Still I have a couple of weeks to resign from my present employer and some doubts. I have friends working there telling me that they are doing ok but I'm been reading this forum for quite a while now and I see lots of complaints. So where is the truth?
I did realize that the nicknames posting are more or less always the same 10 or 15.
So are you trying to descourage person like me ( not a DEC... just a "old" F/O) from joining or this is just a strategy to obtain something ? Since you complain you are working to much the first would be really stupid .So what?
Somebody told me that may be is not the perfect place but still I have to make the cubic root of what I reed on this forum to get a real picture. Still sometime I don't know who to thrust.
Is there anybody willing to help me honestly to take this decision?
I don't want to find my self bonded and complaining. I have a lot of complaints with my present employer ( this company really sucks!!!) but at least I'm home a not 2500 miles away in desert.
So please can somebody answer honestly the following questions:

1) roster on 777 is acceptable and you are getting enough rest and days off?
2) since I 'm not so far away I would be able sometime to commute home?

This is are my real concerns.I'm not afraid of working but my first priority is my health both phisical and mental, career and money comes second because this would be worthless without the first.I know my self.
Honestly speaking I was very well impressed during the interview It has been a very nice experience.Dubai it self may be is not the best place I have ever seen but I like multiracial environment and beaches.
Anybody willing to help?

[Dirigible]

Furb,
I don't often post and actually think the package is reasonable (hardhat on and ducking) but to help out with your decision I will add my two cents worth:
Enough rest / days off: Definitely not, the Boeing guys have recently had it better than the 'bus but are gearing up for a busy summer. Much back of the night trips, longest trip 8 days away. The fatigue model is a joke, and the doctors themselves know it. Your health will be affected, as acknowledged recently by a crew circular put out by management. (They blamed it on us pilots getting older!)
Commuting: Not feasible esp in view of the fatigue as explained above. Have tried to do it for a year, and cannot continue. A very few do commute, but most I know are out of here when they can as not sustainable long term.
Do some searches on both these issues as they have been discussed thoroughly.
Oh, and the multiculturalism and beach life being great? You may be interested in a letter to a local (7Days) newspaper that was published today which I have pasted below. I wouldn't have my wife and kids alone unescorted on a beach.
7Days
How to stop perverts on the beach at Jumeirah
Monday, 06 March 2006
I’ve had an interesting few last visits to the beach, near the Hilton. Last visit there was a man who seemed to have a severe case of Parkinsons (please I mean this in nicest way as I can’t really say in this column what he was doing) going on in his right trouser pocket.
This problem seemed to get worse whenever a woman in a bikini walked past. When I looked at him to let him I knew what he was doing, he just didn’t care, he kept on going. What is the right thing to do about this?
Then he had two mates turn up with a camera, they then pretended to take photos of each other and surprise surprise, it was when a woman in a bikini was walking straight behind them.
And to top that off, one of them tried to grab my 18 month old daughter. He then asked if he could take a photo of her. Now as a parent, you can understand how this made us feel.
The visit before that horrific one, I spun around to find a man taking a photo of a female sunbather. I ran up the beach and told him in no uncertain terms to get off the beach and don’t come back, the man ran away.
To make the day even more spoilt, his mate then tried to get a shot of me putting my clothes back on (I was a mess after witnessing what I just witnessed).
I caught him as he was setting his phone up and taking aim – I ran over to him and stood close to his face and told him that if I caught him using his mobile for anything except to make a call, I’d be calling the police and having him arrested.
Can someone please tell me where my family and I can go so as not to have this kind of thing go on. I love the beach, but have told my husband I will never visit it again under those circumstances.
In Australia all our beaches are patrolled not only by lifeguards, but by policeman as well, and anyone caught doing any of the above would be arrested, tried in court and fined accordingly.
Something needs to be done about this – tourists will eventually cotton on and this issue will be awful for tourism.
Disgruntled, Dubai

[145qrh]

Everyone has their own reasons for joining Emirates, all I would say is that anyone joining now will only have themselves to blame.

Enough has been said on PPrune,and yes you are correct, mostly by the usual suspects.....does'nt stop it being ,for all intents and purposes ...100% correct.....

Management lies, low moral, working your arse off for less money....what more can I add that hasn't already been put much more eloquently than I could say..

Run, and don't look back...Bit like marriage,the doubts don't get better, just worse...

[Dale Hardale]

Hi,

I am also not one of the usual 10 or 15.

Dubai has a very shiny outside, but the inside is a sharp contrast. The letter quoted previously is very symptomatic of the reality here.

The questions you are asking seem to indicate that reasonable doubt still exists.

If you value your health and want to retain some semblance of a decent lifestyle, then I would certainly NOT be coming here to Dubai.

The combination of very difficult work circumstances and a society where no social or commercial conscience exists should trigger alarm bells in anyone thinking of moving here.

I would think that commuting is practically impossible. The 777 rosters are about to follow the lead of the airbus into never before seen flying hours per month.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that with ever increasing crew shortages, this will mean over the top work patterns for those that are here and those that make the mistake of joining in the future.

I have never seen so many guys actively pursuing work elsewhere. In the 10 years I have been here, this attitude is something completely new.

Ask yourself why.

[Shake]

I guess I am one of the usual suspects and leave this month.

1. 777 roster was busy and getting worse. Days off, perhaps 8/month 2 at a time, are more for recovery than for quality time with the family. So NO, not enough rest or days off to cope and your health WILL suffer.

2. Commute? Doesn't matter where you come from you may as well live on the moon.

And for what? Quality of life? Financial reward? All relative at the end of the day, for me I found neither in Dubai or working for EK.

EK treat you like you owe them something, that you needed the job and have nowhere else to go. Of course this change in attitude only takes place once you're here and have burnt the bridge back home.

There is more than enough info available to make a much more informed decision than I did, that at least is true.

[critical winge]

Ask me your most dreaded questions about why you should or should not come and you will get some honest answers. See the latest EK Poll on PPRuNe. It is a stepping stone, but coming now is as good as joining as a second officer in terms of promotion and DUBAI, you won't believe it until you see it. And then you wont believe it could really be that bad! Remember, travel shows, travel agents and property brokers (Abroad) are all paid BIG money to direct the public towards Dubai (thats the way commercialism works). The point is there is a lot of money here to paint a very rosey picture of the place "over there"(Dubai). There probably isn't 1 person who works here, or their spouse who hasn't got issues with the place, what message do you want your kids to see? It's your choice Amigo, you have been warned, if racism isn't your thing then dont come, YOU WILL BE ON THE END OF IT!!

[mupepe]

Hi,
It doesn't take a genius to work out that with ever increasing crew shortages, this will mean over the top work patterns for those that are here and those that make the mistake of joining in the future.
Ask yourself why.
interresting post, I'm also still in doubt as got a call to go for an interview very soon..
I've two fellow collegues who passed the test last february and got "months" lapse time to think before signing the contract (extended on their request for private purpose) ,like obviously no rush/no lack of crew with EK.
I've to decide within 10 days for an interview in end of april and most probably going to the ground course by August this year if getting the ticket.:ugh:
Is there real shortage of crew there ?:confused:

[Outta Heresoon]

interresting post, I'm also still in doubt as got a call to go for an interview very soon..
I've two fellow collegues who passed the test last february and got "months" lapse time to think before signing the contract (extended on their request for private purpose) ,like obviously no rush/no lack of crew with EK.

Mupepe... they can't afford to let any potential yes candidate to slip away and are far more flexible than the past.Many man hours involved in the selection process with limited men.

I've to decide within 10 days for an interview in end of april and most probably going to the ground course by August this year if getting the ticket.:ugh:
Is there real shortage of crew there ?:confused:

YES!!

[Zomp]

I am here for 7 years now and if you are not with the worst ever company than I recommend you to stay where you are.
The good days of EK are over, until 3 years ago it was great nobody ever left unless he retired, now the company even tries to hide from us how many resign per WEEK.
Some F/O's are stuck here because they are too old to start again at the bottom of the seniority with another company, but forget a quick command in EK, I guess if you join now its at least 8 years.
good luck with your decision

[mckaj]

I have been here for two years and have a lot of mixed feeling about the place and the job.

Dubai:
- It’s a city build on disrespect, double standards and rude racist people. I have never met so many stupid, unintelligent, rude, disrespectful, smelly, lying and cheating people in my long life.
- If you have a nice place to live and good people next door then your spare time can be good as long as you stay away from the roads and any place where you have to stay in line with smelly people and rude Arabs jumping the line.
- Weather is good 8 months out of the year.

The Job:
- it’s a job in an environment with absolutely no moral, joy or team spirit.
- Not enough rest
- The company will do everything they can to push and push and push you to do anything whether its legal or not.
- You feel overworked and unsafe most of the time
- It will make you physically sick in the long run (at least on the Bus). Just call the clinic and ask about health problems for the 340 pilots.

BUT it could be the best place to work if only few things would change to the better i.e. more rest, better bidding system, more support from the management, increase in pay and a pension plan actually benefit you.

cheers

[Not from here]

Have to agree with a lot being said I am one of the 330/3340 guys and in the last 18 months have been sitting just under 900 hrs. In Feb took 8 days leave and still flew 77.5hrs stick, which included trip to JFK and Auckland I have now hit 100 hrs in 24 days and have finally been given some days off.Fatigue yes.
Are rostering system is awful very little satisfaction, unless its you top bid month so 2 months out of 10, some satisfaction, days off are in blocks of 1 and 2 days, they are even using your leave as the preflight rest for ULR trips, so they can squeeze more flying out of you.
I personally don’t mind Dubai apart from the Traffic.
But in the 8 years I have been here the last 2 have been pretty tough, and are management really doesn’t care. Lots of Talk no action.
Good luck with your decision. I would think very carefully if you have a half way decent job!!!!

[Mack Tuck]

If EK were to establish bases out of Dubai I would probably stay until retirement however this has been an ongoing issue and at least one senior Captain who was pushing for bases for years finally gave up commuting and has moved his family back to Dubai as the commute was impractical.
Management continue to say NO to basings although many other airlines are adopting this practice as it is an effective use of manpower and also popular with employees. EK dont appear to be interested in improving our lifestyle.
This brings me to the concept of satisficing, i.e. what is satisfactory or enough? The ongoing cost-cutting measures here are indicative of a carrier bordering on insolvency however EK is one of the more profitable airlines in the world (a large reason for this is their labour cost base). This is typical of not only EK but Dubai in general; there is never 'enough'; there must be more. Business owners here could generate healthy (largely tax free) returns whilst providing employee satisfaction through salaries and conditions which are in turn beneficial to society as a whole. Many businesses though, continue to seek maximum returns at the expense of their employees. The situation is similar with landlords and rental charges.
As far as safety is concerned if your wife or daughter is abducted off the street and gang raped expect the perpetrators to get 2 years in the can and probably get out early if they can recite parts of the Koran.
In our countries immigrants are generally treated in much the same way as anyone else. The locals here appear to consider themselves superior to us; they certainly have more money (given the underlying reason for the wealth) although I would argue that that in itself does not form the basis for superiority over other people. It does get irritating.
Try www.7days.ae and check out some of the letters for a broader perspective.
I am happiest when a) out of here on holiday and b) at home and off the roads as it is so stressful.
Good luck with your decision.

[ratpoison]

Dubai:
- It’s a city build on disrespect, double standards and rude racist people. I have never met so many stupid, unintelligent, rude, disrespectful, smelly, lying and cheating people in my long life.
- If you have a nice place to live and good people next door then your spare time can be good as long as you stay away from the roads and any place where you have to stay in line with smelly people and rude Arabs jumping the line.
Oh, I get so emotional when I read such POETRY. Bloody well said I must say.:p

[Backwater]

Furbpilot,
Don't be concerned that you might be reading the opinions of a disaffected few. I can say with certainty that the opinions expressed on this thread and others on this forum are reflected in cockpit conversations on 95% (est) of my flights for the past 18 months. The company has lost the respect of the pilot workforce.

[furbpilot]

Hi again guys
I'm reading your answer with deep interest ans I thank you all.
But yesterday I managed to get an original roster (february ) from a friend of mine on the 330 ( that seems to be as far as I understood the "worst") and I counted 14 days off, nice 48 hrs layovers, some short haul flights in the region strings of 5 and 6 days off togheter. I would say nothing scary and much much better of what I got now.
Would you like to see my European Domestic airline roster? Would you like to know the fascist ,mafious attitude of the guys I'm dealing with now? You want me to tell you I'm in the penalty box because I switch off my phone in days off ? Do you want a picture of the incredibly poor level of training, maintenance, organization, and overall professionality I see around me now
About traffic and criminality, have you ever been to Naples?
So you have the right to complain but why discourage people. Most probably when I 'll join the company I'll join also the chorus of complaint because I know it works like that but still you are not giving the real picture.
May be... more pilots, less credit hours? I don't know... just an idea but I still think you are not helping guys

[max AB]

Furbie, I wont comment whether you should join EK or not but has your friend been at EK more than a few minutes? If so ask him what he thinks. If he is 330 only then he has joined less than 14mths. The 330 is the "best" roster after the 310. After at least 12mths you go onto the 340 and that combination is another story altogether. As is the 777 from now on.

[Mack Tuck]

Furbie you arent listening. There are issues with EK as with all carriers. The main thrust of my points and many others contained on this thread and others in the same forum is Dubai. I would stay with EK if I could be based elsewhere and so would many others (many of the ones who have already left).

[furbpilot]

Well may be you are right.
So why don't some body of you send me your roster via e-mail ( may be a 777 one) so that I can see it with my eyes.That would be simple don't you think? Everybody here is anonimous so there will be no disclosure of reserved information right? I'll be waiting

here is the adress [email protected]

[Outta Heresoon]

Just take the job. you are obviously trying to convince yourself that it's ok, perhaps better than what you have now. A copy of one man's roster will not give you the "big picture" of what life is like here, so just come with the perception it's utopia. Most here did just that until the bittersweet of reality sets in.

[Zomp]

just come and join, you will see during the training when one of the famous oz trainers takes care of you. you don't listen like many new joiners within the last 2 years guess you gonna get what you asked for.

[puff m'call]

FURBPILOT, you really are NOT listening to what these well informed people are telling you, are you?

Have you heard of the expression " Out of the frying pan, into the fire"

If you have one ounce of bloody sence then stay right where you are!!! ::*

[furbpilot]

Sorry folks but I don't know what you mean with "oz"? Told you I'm just a south european pilot that somebody I read would classifie as C categorY
By the way,what really I don't understand is why don' t you leave and for example to.. Ryanair or Easyjet they are strongly looking for pilots. You will be based in some nice european city with all western civilization comfort. Highly experienced pilots like you wouldn't find any problem with that.
May be the idea of waking up everyday at 4.15 for 5 days in row and flyng four stratches a day every for five day in a row to same destination for five day in a row may be with four deicing and four cat III approaches in winter for five days in a row , with 30 min turnaround between each of the 20 leg is not appealing ?
Still people is going to fly there. I'm flying for a company like that.I'm not trying to convince my self i'm trying to understand. Our category is always complaining every where in any company in the wolrld. Why don't start acting. I don't like the place i work for and actually I don't like the country I live in even if I was born here . So i'm trying to leave. Why if you are so tired you don't get sick. It a safety issue. You say they lost respect for pilot in Emirates.As far as I can say from my very scarce experience i believe that respect for pilots has been lost every where. And I think that is our own fault.
If i'll come and I will not like it I will leave again point. Still waiting for that roster. By the way is there anybody even only partially positive on Emirates among the surfer of this forum?

[145qrh]

Seems like furb has made up his mind.

" There ain't them so blind as them that won't listen."

D Trotter

[mckaj]

Furbpilot

330/340 roster:

81 hrs in November
115 hrs in December
49 hrs in with 17 days leave in january
88 hrs in february
96 hrs in March

Not complaining but but see for yourself wether this will be somethng for you.

Hence: almost all is night flying and time zones from NYC to Aukland

[puff m'call]

"FURBPILOT" What a prat, don't know why you asked in the first place. Just say "yes" and come along and see for yourself, it seems quiet clear you don't intend to listen.

It all looks very grand at interview, it's supposed to! but in reality mate it's alot different as you WILL find out, so don't say no one told you.

[gtaflyer]

Furb

ask yourself one question "what if the new outfit turns out to be worse then my present employer"

if it turns out that you do not like Dubai or the airline, then what is plan B get-out plan? do you have one? can you go back to your old employer or are you burning your bridges.

I dont know what your circumstances are but you must have these critical questions answered before you go. Do not expect people to help you. you have to be flexible and adaptable to cope with new surroundings yourself.

I thought i would reply to your thred because i have been through this process twice, once in aviation and once non aviation and realise your dilemma.

gta

[windshear..not again]

Burnt bridges are the most costly, if not impossible to repair.

If one has a good rapport with ones company, and can "convince" them to agree to a leave of absense to take up employment with another airline..try that route.. All but impossible in my belief.

Catch is, EK EXPECTS one to resign from your current employers and they will be calling to confim, along with the resignation statement with your company endorsement on it. Not into giving someone a trial basis, not liking it and them allowing them to leave with a handshake.

One has to look through all of the threads on this forum, and weigh it all out logically before commiting to the change. There are the regular culprits who post their dis-satisfaction with one of the most profitable airlines in the world.....But are they wrong? Maybe not.... Too many saying the same thing. It seems discoursging to read this, but maybe it is a warning to those who may have it bad at their current airline, but things can become worse with the desert change.

If you are single, have nothing to loose, young, consider it a transient stop and join.. 3 years can go by quickly enough. After the bond period expires, experience gained, look for something better.

I did my interview, and realized that Dubai is all smoke and mirrors. Though it is the City of Gold, not all that glitters is gold. The lure of the Heavy Metal is tempting, but ask the question of yourself, "are things really that bad where I am?". If you find your self coming up with reasons why you should stay..Then you are probably right.

One of these day I will post my roster here.. But for now, average 65 flight hours, 8-10 days off, sometimes 4 days in a stretch, home almost every night, good tax free salary, quality of life. Not ULR but some decent 4 hour sectors. I would probably have gone nuts sitting in a pressurized aluminum tube for 10 hours. So I'll stay put for now.

Read carefully the posts from the Gentleman who are there living arm in arm with the Arabs... Maybe they are not wrong..Maybe they are..Its up to you to make that final decision.

I'm glad I made the right decision.:)

[fatigueflyer]

"BUT it could be the best place to work if only few things would change to the better i.e. more rest, better bidding system, more support from the management, increase in pay and a pension plan actually benefit you."

Must be the classic wish list of the year. With an rapidly expanding (totally chaotic) airline rest is only achievable in the bunk of the aircraft. As long as there are clerks fu&king about with the rosters better bidding is a dream. Support from management (say no more!!!). Increase in pay seems about as likely as bacon being a staple diet in this part of the world and pension plan......only if your surname starts with Al.

[vagabond 47]

[quote=furbpilot]Sorry folks but I don't know what you mean with "oz"?

FURBPILOT..........An "OZ" is an American with the **** kicked out of him.


I recall years ago they used to say that about "Kiwis" relative to OZs.

Cheers.

[maddog62]

Furb check your PMs,

mad

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

There is a lot to be learned from BYMONEK and others like him.

If anyone had the time and energy to research years of prooning, you would be able to track to gradual change of position of these guys.

When BYMONEK first started at EK, he was a passionate and loyal employee. We had many discussions about the difference between the perception and the realilty of EK. When BYMONEK was new to EK, to his credit and understandably, he was totally supportive of EK and its right to manage the company as they saw fit, and rather patronising to those of us who had been here a few years and were trying to paint a balanced picture.

Over time though, possibly having been on the wrong end of the shafting stick, BYMONEK has adjusted his view such that he is far less supportive of management than he was several years ago.

I believe this is indicative of the majority of (not all) EK employees. Most come here because they want to. Some come because they have to. Of those that want to come here, they obviously came with a view to a great job and a good future.

There is a constant theme posted by the pro management lobby, who say that the voices on prune are a minority group of trouble makers. I reject this and would suggest that what you see on prune represents a fairly accurate view of morale. Most guys are less than impressed with the EK facade, some are very happy and are looking to a long term stay. My experience and interaction with others would support the poll that has been running as a fair indication of company morale. Last time i looked the split was around 75/25 with the majority being dissatisfied with the company. That rings true to me.

Sure it could be the same guys voting over and over again, but if that is the case you would have to say that is true of the pro EK lobby as well.

My point?

If you are considering EK, it would be worth your effort to look back a few years and compare the opinions of BYMONEK and others from then as to now. I think this genuinely and accurately reflects how most employees opinions evolve over time and may give you an insight into your future.

Appologies to BYMONEK. This is not intended to be an attack on him. It is just that he been a long term and consistent pruner and has continued to use the same name over this period, which implies that he has some integrity and therefore makes his views worth comparing. I believe that the above applies to many EK pruners, myself included. Its just that i think that most have changed their identity several times over the years. This could also be something worth thinking about when considering EK.


Cop U Later

[4HolerPoler]

Great post Rev Doc - thanks for taking the time to compile your post (wish I had that time) - clearly no offense intended - very, very good advice to all the hopefuls - you have your dreams, you bust your butt getting to knock on the door; you have to shove & haul your way through that door and at first you like what you see but then the rose-tint starts to wane. Soon you're cussing what you see & beating on that door to get out. Hey, conditions have changed for most of us; sands are shifting, things are more expensive but take a deeeeep breath & (for the great majority of us) & realize how many aspirant door-knockers would willingly take your seat. Now, you can always give up that seat - that is your choice but remember how bad you wanted that seat a few years back.

The grass is not.................

4HP

[BYMONEK]

Reverend

Firstly, no apology is required. Your post is not far from the truth and indeed sums up the feelings of a great many Pilots in Emirates right now. If anything, perhaps it should be me apologizing for my early 'patronising' posts. It certainly wasn't my intention to appear that way but merely offer my view of how I saw things at the time. I too received patronising and aggressive replies for my views but also many personal PM's from guys looking for a balanced view against the prevalence of negativity. In hindsight, as a newcomer to EK and Dubai, I was probably not the best qualified to offer it.


I suppose the question to ask is, do I have any regrets coming ? Well, the truth is no. Not yet at least. Although I gave up a command,good money and secure(ish) Company, I couldn't have continued there until retirement. Hugely unstable rosters meant quality of life was compromised, days were wasted positioning around UK and staff travel was a joke. There were other issues as well. However, the flying was good fun, relaxed yet professional and you could have a joke and banter with the Cabin Crew. You looked forward to nightstops which were fun and social and above all, we trusted and looked after each other. There was a good team spirit in the Company and we didn't go around dobbing people in it behind their backs! We also, more importantly, had a fairly high trust of our managers and problems were dealt with in a sensible and fair way. The same cannot always be said here i'm afraid.


Although there are still many positives here in both Dubai and Emirates, there are many issues which need addressing. Like Dubai, there is a high element of racism and nepatism which doesn't sit well with many expats. Also, the calibre of some of our middle managers is truly shocking. I stress some because there are some stars amongst the dross. This is sadly true of some trainers. I've met the best here and without doubt the worst. If ever we needed a standards dep't in flight training its now. We lose good guys because they're simply taken advantage of and do not receive the recognition or rewards for their effort, much of which is in their own time. There is a culture in EK, much like Dubai, that not only should we be grateful for being here but it's expected of you to put in plenty of 'free' time. And if you don't like it, leave! The same old chestnut that we hear on a daily basis that sums up a mentality of ignoring the true problem and sacking the 'problem makers'. As we cut back on our original 4 day reccurrent to 3 and then to 2 days, we save money. Notice how in the latest edition of SAFAR the Company actually receives a grant from the Australian Gov'nt for training courses. As pilots, this saving is converted into home study on days off and your log on time will be monitored. I have no objection to home study but I do strongly object to being tied to my computer at home to do it. Give me the books to study while i'm away or provide all pilots with laptops. If we are reqiured to learn from CD's then the Company has a moral obligation to provide us with the tools to carry out that task.


This is just one example of how, on a daily basis, we have to live and deal with the decisions our managers take. Our commercial and advertising dep't are to be commended. Our recruitment planning and training less so. Aircraft ordered 2 years ago and now not enough pilots to fly them. What kind of a joke is that.We suffer from others mistakes but they still get their full years leave with their families. How as pilots would we be treated if we made decisions like that?


Like everything here, it comes down to money. Every single dep't here, especially those associated with flight ops, service delivery, crew control and engineering are undermanned. The managers reach their target and bonuses are achieved. Yes, we have secure jobs but will this continue every year? Only those at the very top benefit form this. It's called greed and whilst some managers may have moved on in 3-4 years with a nice CV, those of us who planned a career and offered our loyalty, are left picking up the pieces from dishonest and incompetant policies. This Company has massive potential but the last 2 years has seen morale plummit and guys starting to leave in numbers like never before. Not huge exaggerated numbers but an amount that should make the owners sit up and take note.


Until we see policies such as internal upgrades ( no DEC's), Flight Deck travel, provision of laptops, full compliment of Cabin Crew on every flight, more days off at base to recover, and a true team spirit, then people will continue to leave at an increasing rate.


Would I still advise coming? Difficult to say, as everyone's circumstances are very different. I intend staying for the long run on the proviso that there are some changes here, some of which are mentioned above. My views may well have become somewhat more realistic in my time here but i'm sure you'll agree, there's been much change too in these last couple of years, most of which has not been for the better. I'd like to think that as we stuggle to crew more and more Aircraft and as the passengers increasingly complain, then someone, somewhere will have the balls to say enough is enough and time to forgo huge profits opting instead for quality people and a quality product.


They are the very things that made Emirates and without them, they'll be the very things that destroy us. Let's hope that never happens:sad:

Safe flying

BYMONEK

[Quod Boy]

BYMONEK,good honest post mate and Rev Dr D spot on,
Furbie,youve been given some good honest cross sections of opinions come along and join EK but dont say you werent warned when in 12 months time when the honeymoon is over and the baseball bat is no longer greased up prior to entry.
The best days here are over IMHO,they had a great chance here to make it really excellent in every way,but read the threads and you will see one of the greatest acts of self destruction ever on a pilot group by its "management" astonishing lack of grasp on the impact of some awful policies and the lives/careers affected.The damage is done and the effects starting to bite.
Truly a wasted opportunity.EK will survive,but its a stepping stone airline now and it might offer what you want so if thats big shiny jets and sun come along get what you want,but dont expect fair play or support You are a hired gun in a trainset run by money and power focused managers with no interest in your welfare..EYES OPEN before you come,good luck with your choice either way.
Off to the pub.QB

[Outta Heresoon]

BymonEK
I have followed your posts for quite some time now, and while I don't always agree with everything you say or some points you make, the post above is exactly the way I and I'm sure many other EK pilots feel. Good on you for taking your time composing a well written, well thought out response to Dr. Doug whom also makes some very good points. We can only wish that management reads these and takes with it the good intentions without insult. Better still, I'm sure we all hope they actually do something to again steer this company in the proud direction it once did.

4HP...sometimes it's hard to recognise green grass when the field you are in is on fire...

[harry the cod]

BYMONEK
I too have followed many of your posts within these last few years noting a gradual change in attitude but you're not alone. The vast majority of crew, including Cabin Crew ( hate the term service delivery!) who've been here a while feel the same. That's not from the dissenters here on prune but flying on the line day in day out. Your post is honest and hits the nail squarely on the head. It's the feeling on the street and management should take note!
Reputation takes a long time to earn. A far shorter time to lose.

Many of us realise that for the sake of some relative small changes and a genuine and fair sharing of the profits, morale would increase dramatically. It's getting to the point now that instead of feeling proud every time I see the Emirates logo at some sporting event, I hide a sneaking suspicion that the deal was done to inject exess profit into 'free' advertising rather than distribute via bonus pay.

I guess i'm getting more distrustful in my old age!

Harry

[Backwater]

I think we're all dreaming if we expect a change for the better. We nearly lost a 340 in J'Berg due to incredible systemic faults in the company. Did we learn anything? Nope - just punish the pilots and move on. Like Gulf Air before us (who incidentally are still in denial over their A320 loss) Emirates will follow the path started 2 years ago. To the big players here what matters is they are in charge.
If we keep expecting the management will somehow come to their senses we are living a dream. In short, we're ****ed. Have a nice weekend.

[beaumarias]

I'm a fairly new (18 months) DEC and as with every company there's plenty to complain about, but generally it's pretty good here.
I'm Airbus so not quite as many A**L Aussie trainers as "The Boeing".
I nearly busted 90 days in the UK last year so commuting is quite possible as long as you don't mind compromising your roster.
Membership of most/all Golf course is full, so if (like me) you're a golfer thats a minus.
Best of Luck

[harry the cod]

Even Nad Al Sheba? Oh well, sorry to hear that mate. Perhaps you should have joined earlier, as an F/O, LIKE THE REST OF US and you would have got a place.You could always take up fishing!

Harry

[furbpilot]

I want to thank you all for the answer and advices you gave me. Specially the last post by Bymonek and Reverend..mmmhhh... well.. i don´t remenber, are intellectually honest and finally helping. I know paradise is not of this life..( and actually i dont believe I will have another one so....no paradise at all..) .This kind of post are finally helping
One more crew to reduce your workload..you should be happy.
Thanks again and see you in Dubai.

[furbpilot]

I forgot ..I don´t golf I´m a rustic guy so no minus ..but I like fishing....

[EGGW]

..but I like fishing....

Well your stuffed here in DXB, the off shore Palms/World have pretty much killed off the once plentiful sealife.

[harry the cod]

What, you must be kidding. Plenty of sharks in this part of the World !

[Zomp]

furbie,
even gallarate is better than dubai, you will see.

[EGGW]

Not in DXB there ain't. The odd Whale shark mate, but thats about it. The Gulf waters are generally too warm for sharks, especially in summer. You can see them over in Fujeirah, Indian Ocean side of the UAE.

EGGW

[harry the cod]

Luton boy

I wasn't referring to the fishy sort, more the ones on dry land, selling houses, investment packages for expats, car sales...............those sort of sharks! Get my drift?:cool:

[Quod Boy]

Furby,

I see youve decided to join us and swell the ranks,based on Rev Dr D and BYMONEK ,Im so disappointed you didnt give the rest of us any credit for your monumental decision.

So much so,Im going to sulk in the pub its 0500 and Ive just done yet another night sim duty,but like so many I love it,were very lucky to be here as highly valued pilots,like many others I enjoy starting my duty at 10pm at night.

By the way,unlike my colleagues Im not lazy,and I got 10 days off this month.Did I mention we are really well paid?

Welcome to the dream.

Ah,the pub awaits even at this time of the day.

QB:ok:

[dubaislave]

Hello Furb,

I do not know what a rustic guy is but I will take your word for it.... On the issue of joining Ek good luck to you.....

I have been here some time now, and I can tell you that things are not what they seem to be from the out side. Think back to when you joined your present employer and how happy you were. I am sure people then told you the bad points, but you would not listen because you were new and naive.... Now you leave them because you have had enough....

Think about the guy who is going to replace you, does he believe that the place your are leaving is bad? If he did he would not be joing your outfit....

We tend to see what we want to see. We tend to ignore the issues and views that do not fall in to our pre-conceived reality.

People in EK do not leave for various reasons, although that does not mean that they like staying here either.

Would your employer take you back once you have left? Would you be able to go back in to seniority or to your old position with the salary you had? Would you be able to find another job in your contry and in the region you want to live easily, or would you have to commute? Would you be able to easily justify the cost of moving your family out of DXB? pay all the loans on cars etc, and then afford the loans on new cars houses etc. Would you be able to afford the houses if you have left the property lader and they have sky rocketed since?

It is easier to complain than leaving because it does not cost as much, and it does not require as much effort, but that does not mean that people do not leave or that they complain just to complain....

We have had around 70 resignations in the last two years, so many actualy that our managers have taken away the feature from the crew portal and we can no longer see who is leaving. This is a typical example of fixing things in DXB and in EK. Hide the truth-problem solved....

EK is not an achievement, although you may feel it is because recruitment makes you believe that. It is part of the catch to get you to join, you feel special, you feel you have achieved something, therefore you must join....

It is just a job like any other, and once you have done it just like you have in your present employer you realise that it should be a two way relationship. Give expertise, and get money and quality of life.

At present we tend to be giving and not receiving. You might say that it is the same where you are, but I would say that it is not... you are home and have the comfort of your friends and family. This is not our country, we are here until we move on either back home, or to greener pastures...

Take a vacation if you need a brake, but do not come here believing that things will be better. It is a different outfit, with similar problems to yours. It used to be great, it has been much more fun than recently, and the money used to go a long way. Now it is not worth coming here in my view.... I would never join EK again if I knew then what I know now, but then it was a different company.....

"Come and Discover until you also find the best...."
:D :D :D :D

[chinawladi]

Been here for more than two years now.
It's simply not worth it - over.

[Cerberus]

'The Honeymooners' - Starring Capt Optimistic and First Officer Quick Command. An everyday story of life in Dubai.

I was delighted when I got my job at EK. I recommended it to all my mates - some came and some even still speak to me. At about 2 years I started to see the sand in between the buildings when I got stuck in a traffic jam on the SZR. I am still here because I can't be asked to move yet. But Rev D has it spot on, my mate was the most positive guy in the airline until he got to 2 years and then the gold started to flake off his idol as all the DECs continued and the new transition upgrade policy was announced. Then he watched as his fellow joiners on the 777 started their upgrades and the company thought he might be in line 18 months or so later on the Bus.

[Desert Diner]

I want to thank you all for the answer and advices you gave me. Specially the last post by Bymonek and Reverend..mmmhhh... well.. i don´t remenber, are intellectually honest and finally helping. I know paradise is not of this life..( and actually i dont believe I will have another one so....no paradise at all..) .This kind of post are finally helping
One more crew to reduce your workload..you should be happy.
Thanks again and see you in Dubai.


Although I don't live in Dubai or work at EK, I have seen many an expat, from all over the world, come and go from the sand pit around the gulf. In some ways they are all the same.

Unfortunately too many with an attitude like yourself. And they are the ones destined for the biggest fall/shock once they actually see what its really like.

What everyone here is telling you is true. It's up to you whether you want to believe in the advice you asked for or not.

Good luck and don't say you haven't been warned.

[1pilot12345]

HI, YOU'RE THINKING IN A VERY CONVENTIONAL WAY AND A LOT OF THE GUYS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO REPLY IN AS HONEST (FROM WHAT I HAVE READ) A WAY AS POSSIBLE.

YOU MAY BE WISHING FOR A ROSTER THAT GETS YOU OUT OF DUBAI - HAVE YOU GIVEN THAT ANY THOUGHT. YOU MIGHT DISLIKE THIS ISLAND OF HYPOCRISY SO MUCH. IF YOU'RE MARRIED AND YOUR WIFE IS MISERABLE, HOW WILL YOU COPE WITH THAT WHEN YOU GET TO GO TO EUROPE OR AUSTRALIA AND SHE DOESN'T. IF LIFE FOR YOU BEGINS AND ENDS IN THE COCKPIT OF A BIG AEROPLANE THEN COME HERE, YOU DESERVE IT.

HOW SECURE WILL YOU FEEL WHEN AS AN F/O YOU WILL BE AT MANAGEMENT'S BEHEST FOR AS MANY YEARS AS IT TAKES TO GET A COMMAND INTERVIEW (A330'S RETIREMENT BEGINS THIS YEAR-DO YOUR SUM). HOW WILL YOU COPE IF YOU DON'T GET PAST THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION, WHICH YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD PASSED WHEN YOU GOT HIRED, FOR THAT COMMAND - SO YOU DON'T EVEN MAKE IT TO THE INTERVIEW. HAVE THEY TOLD YOU THAT EVERY PROMOTION REQUIRES YOU PASSING A PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION? HAVE THEY TOLD YOU HOW MANY COMMAND CANDIDATES HAVE FAILED. IF YOU MEET SOME OF THEM YOU WILL WONDER WHY BECAUSE WHEN I DID THEY SEEMED QUITE SANE TO ME.

HAVE YOU EVER FLOWN BACK TO BACK TRIPS THAT HAD YOU FLYING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS FROM YOUR HOME BASE AND WHICH COVERED QUITE A NUMBER OF TIME ZONES? WHEN YOU ARE SO TIRED THAT YOU FEEL YOU SHOULDN'T BE AT WORK BUT GO ANYWAY - AND IF SOMETHING HAPPENS, THE COMPANY WILL HIDE BEHIND THE FOM, WHICH STATES CLEARLY THAT YOU SHOULDN'T SHOW UP FOR WORK TIRED.

YOU ARE ENTRUSTED WITH QUITE A LUMP OF RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS JOB BUT AT EK YOU WILL RECEIVE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF AUTHORITY AND NO LOYALTY. YOU ARE DISPATCHED YET YOUR DISPATCHER ISN'T WORTH THE SEAT HE SITS ON. IF YOU TRY TO HELP YOU CAN EXPECT SHORT SHRIFT ESPECIALLY IF DEALING WITH SOME OF THE EGOES WHO OCCUPY THE SMNC POSITIONS (SENIOUR MANAGER NETWORK CONTROL).

THESE MAY NOT EQUATE TO MUCH FOR YOU IF YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH YOUR BIG SHINEY JET BUT WHEN YOU MESS UP DUE TO ALL OF THE ABOVE, YOU WILL STAND VERY ALONE. BROADEN YOUR FOCUS AND DON'T GET SUCKED INTO THE WANABEE FRAME OF MIND.

[EK Shadow]

From (streamline.vortex@From) CR-Psychopaths to Responsible
Corporations: Waking up the Inner
Sleeping Beauty of Companies

Tarja Ketola*
Department of Management, TurkuSchool of Economics, Finland
ABSTRACT

Many large companies seem to fulfil the psychiatric criteria for psychopaths in their corporate responsibility (CR) practices. Are they really incurable psychopaths, or is it possible that they could be counselled into accepting their responsibilities?

CR studies have so far paid little attention to the variations in the CR emphases between different companies. This article, based on a conference paper (Ketola, 2005b), presents a CR emphasis model, pinpointing eight different approaches to corporate responsibility. Some companies do not voluntarily take any responsibilities.

Companies acting like psychopaths need a Prince of Virtues to kiss awake their
inner Sleeping Beauty from its 100-year irresponsibility sleep. All companies could take advantage of virtue ethics, which present the values shared by all humans, and hence exemplify the natural law (lex naturae). Counselling top managers and key individuals on their personal and professional values enables all personnel to integrate virtues into the company’s CR practices. Copyright © 2006 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd and ERP Environment.

Introduction

IN AN AMERICAN TV DOCUMENTARY, TARGETING THE MAJORS (FINNISH TV2, 2 JANUARY 2005),
major companies were subjected to a personality test by measuring their actions in the areas of economic, social and ecological responsibilities. The actions taken by those companies indicated that they were psychopaths as they fulfilled all the criteria of psychopathy. I have adopted this idea, and compare in Table 1 the personal characteristics of psychopaths with typical contemporary organizational behaviour.

Naturally, the documentary presented the worst deeds done by companies; therefore, the psychopathic characteristics do not represent their whole personality, which also incorporates good deeds. However, a responsible company does not do good deeds with one hand and evil deeds with the other hand, but tries to do good with both hands. Psychopathic characteristics should be eliminated from a company in order that it can really be a responsible company and say so.

The psychopathic characteristics of companies are often established practices developed over the years or decades. They have started from an individual’s or individual company’s evil deed that has remained unpunished, and have consequently spread and become a common practice within a company and among companies, a line of business and the whole business community. New psychopathic corporate characteristics are developing all the time – every time a company gets off scot-free. It is the responsibility of companies themselves, business communities, business environments and society at large to see to that no-one’s irresponsible deeds remain unpunished. Apart from discipline, positive incentives are needed to motivate companies away from psychopathic behaviour. First they need to become aware of their current position in the CR emphasis map, in order that appropriate action can be taken.

A Hypothetical Corporate Responsibility Emphasis Model
Corporate responsibility research has made major advances in mapping the area both in theory and practice
However, CR studies have so far paid little attention to the variations in the CR emphases between different companies. Companies have remarkably varied approaches to responsibility. Even within a single line of business many different attitudes can be found. For example, of the oil companies the Finnish Neste Oil believes that their ‘profit cake’ can be cut between economic, social and ecological responsibilities, while the American ExxonMobil sees responsibility as a zero sum game in which the economic responsibilities
must win (Ketola, 2005a). The British BP and the British–Dutch Shell tend to lobby compromises
between different stakeholders so that the claimants of social and ecological responsibilities would also be satisfied with what they benefit from the oil companies’ profits (Ketola, 2005a; O’Rourke, 2004;

CR-Psychopaths
The corporate responsibility emphases of different companies can be analysed with the assistance of
a hypothetical corporate responsibility model illustrated in Figure 1. The model takes account of all the combinations of corporate economic, social and ecological responsibilities. Thus an individual responsibility profile can be drawn for each company.
Some of these concepts have already been used by other researchers. O’Riordan (1981) made a division between technocentric and ecocentric sustainable development and Pearce (1991), Purser et al.
(1995), Shrivastava (1995) and Iyer (1999) between anthropocentric and ecocentric sustainable development.
However, their anthropocentrism is in fact a rather inhuman, calculative technocentric
approach for the rich and mighty who can afford to solve problems with technological innovations.
Chambers (1987), on the other hand, introduced a genuinely anthropocentric approach, sustainable
livelihoods, in which poor people are paid special attention to. Our Common Future (WCED, 1987) is a
compromise between technocentric, anthropocentric and ecocentric approaches.
Colby (1990) distinguished five categories along the line of anthropo-, eco- and biocentric sustainable
development. As with Pearce, Colby’s anthropocentric alternative is actually technocentric, which makes
his five categories very strong technocentrism, strong technocentrism, modified technocentrism,
ecocentrism and biocentrism – illustrating the society’s firm, even desperate, belief in technological.......

[Snake man]

Furbpilot: I think you're probably a little overwhelmed with all the advice coming at you over this forum. You've made up your mind and really want someone to back it up. Its not going to happen, so choose the middle road.
If it's not too late, sit down with your present employer and explain your position before you resign. Tell him that you're just not sure, but that you feel compelled to try a move to EK. If he's a little older and been in the game for a while, he'll understand. Ask him if you can come back if it all turns to custard. It will help him too, because you'll send a clear message to anyone else at the company entertaining the same notion.
When you get here and you get the keys to temporary accommodation which is an apartment in the middle of the business district with no clear idea when you and your family can move, you have a back door.
When you draw the short straw and get paired up with one of the many instructors who treats you like a child, you have a back door.
When you draw the shortest straw of all, and do your final check with our favourite instructor who quizzes you for 4 hours on.......your politics, your President/Prime Minister and your sexual persuasion and then finally fails you anyway for not starting your stopwatch on push-back, you have a back door.
When you lodge a complaint about this treatment and the company grounds YOU for 3 months and subjects you to non-stop psychometric evaluation and the culprit walks free, you have a back door.
It's OK to make a well intentioned mistake, and its the mark of an intelligent man to admit it and turn back down the road you've just travelled. Do everything you can to keep the door open, Furbpilot, and an honest "Good luck".

SM.

[CatII]

http://www.nostradamusonline.com/sample_chapter.php

Quotes

In May 2004, members of the Italian National Library in Rome made an amazing discovery. Buried in their archives was an unknown manuscript by the famed prophet Michel Notredame, or Nostradamus (1503-1566). This manuscript was handed down to the prophet's son and later donated by him to Pope Urban VIII. It did not surface again until now, almost four hundred years later.



Third world country leader creates strife
(Century III, Quatrain 60)
A "young dark man" will arise as a leader in a Third World country; his main goal is to unite the other Third World countries to do battle with the superpowers. The area of conflict will be in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, particularly around he Adriatic and the Caspian seas and the eastern Mediterranean. No definite winner will emerge but the strife will help set the stage for the Antichrist. Some prophecies in the Bible refer to events in this region

(Century II, Quatrains 3 and 4)
During continuing unrest in the Middle East, one of the leaders will be able to get a hold of an nuclear bomb. He will go to the greatest lengths over the smallest things and will not hesitate to use the weapon because his obsessions with deadly warfare. The people he is warring against retaliate with a nuclear weapon. The country has a coast on the Mediterranean.

[Fart Master]

Use of the words 'Nuclear Bomb' in a 600 year old document..I don't think so

[chinawladi]

In some translations it says "weopon of mass destruction".
This definition may contain a wide range of weapons. For some it is a nuclear bomb in the hands of middle eastern leaders, for others it's a simple rifle in the hands of western vice presidents.
china

[uplock]

My bets on the 4 Wheel Drives with the Blacked Out Windows which Tail gate you on along the main drag in Dubai

[beaumarias]

Thanks Harry the Cod. I did join Nad Al Sheba 2 years ago.
Keep eating the sour grapes.

[harry the cod]

Beamarias

So you've been here 18 months and a member of Nads 2 years. Seems you make it a habit getting in early before others. Why were you complaining then if you had a place? Anyway, thanks for the dietry advice but as a relatively senior trainer on the 330/340 I can at least afford the sweeter variety!:ok:

Harry

[furbpilot]

Hi dears

No.. my happyness doesn't start in the cockpit of a shiny big jet. Actually I don't give a **** about how shiny or big it' s my work place...may be more on its airworthyness. I' m single so no wife waiting for me.. I see most of you think that I'm childish guy that wants to play with the big toy.Actually a I know a lot of people like this and probably this is the problem with this job. But is not my case. Mine is the case of a 40 years old F/O that five years ago joined a company ruled by a bunch of south american style military pilots yes men , in which everithing is done my country style. Pathetic training,bad rostering continuos call in days off to cover systemic lack of crew, bad salary, total lack of organization at all levels, and most of all a very bad attitude.If you don't join this mafia, forget your career. I fought my personal war knowing that I couldn't win but still I don't regret it cause at least I like what I see in the mirror in the morning.
Most of you guys probably come from aviation civilized country I don't. The only place you can do this job in this country is the flag carrier the rest is real **** . Shall I go to Rayanar? No thanks F**K Rayanair !!!
Shall I join some charter operator ?
No thanks I don't want to go to Cuba and come back immediately in must go!!!
Shall I stay where I'm? No thanks I don't want to be a bus driver flying six legs a day in the same four same destination for the rest of my working life.
If I'll come Dubai I know I will not be flying in my country anymore and actually I don't give much more then a s**t about broken bridges. I will have to wait for my upgrade? Still I will make more money there as an F/O then where I'm now as CPT .
And if I will not be happy I will quit and as I did before and do something else but in the mean time I will do something I never did see people I never saw and visit places I'm never been ,not even 24 hours.
So now somebody as to tell me something more ? And by the way I'm still waiting for that roster....

[shawarma]

welcome on board furbpilot, full steam ahead, no "ice burgs " here.........

[Dale Hardale]

""..........bad rostering continuos call in days off to cover systemic lack of crew, bad salary, total lack of organization.....""

Hmmm - does this ring a bell anyone ?

Sounds just like the company you are about to join Furb.

Keep recovering :}

[harry the cod]

furb

You'll fit in fine hear. Your current level of English and grammar is on a par with our latest joiners.:uhoh:

Harry

[plovdiv]

furb
You'll fit in fine hear. Your current level of English and grammar is on a par with our latest joiners.:uhoh:
Harry

Oxford Dictionary: Hear..... to perceive sound with the ear.

Good to know that EK's senior 330/340 trainers have a sense of humour.

[harry the cod]

Plovdiv

Thanks. Glad to sea subtlety not lost on some !;)

Harry

[furbpilot]

It' not up to me to judge my professionality nor I want to speak about my level of experience but for sure I speak more the one language ..amigo.
Salam

[ruserious]

and your point is?

[harry the cod]

His point seems to be that it's okay to have basic English because he can speak several others.
Well, my friend, I can assure you that we've had several guys in the last year, mainly from South America, who's command of English has been poor and as a result have been given 'extra' English lessons. This isn't for show, it's to prevent accidents occuring through errors in communications. It doesn't matter how good a poler you are. The sooner you realise that the better!

Harry

[furbpilot]

I tink you are goig out of teme. Tis post startid with simpl question.. Ow is realli laife in Dubai woking for Emirates eirlines?
Nau sims like I'm havin an english test. I 'm been instructing in da states for some iears ( I old FAA CPL CFI CFII MEI ) in the Ouston aria and I flu with collig from all over in may career. Never any problema wit communicazion... heaven if I come from Kazakhistan....Grade?
Dasvidanja.

[davidletterman]

furb....

I believe you need an ATP to get into this circus...... english not really a problem, nobody here speaks good english anyway...

[cvfly]

furb..
don't worry..in Dubai you don't need to know many words of English..Just remember to say "AS WELL" every time you open your mouth and you'll be fine..;)

[furbpilot]

Thanks for your suggestion guys.
I was just joking..I'm not from Kazhakistan....near.
I do hold an ATPL ( how the hell would I have passed the interview otherwise ...? )

As well.....

So long

[airbus757]

Hi furb, this is what I think of you and your future.

I think you are a guy who has passed the interview and is now in a fantasy about how good your job will be when you reach EK. I don't believe there was ever any question on whether or not you will come here. Now here you sit waiting for that glorious day when you start training at EK, so you kill some time on this forum asking "questions" which only serve to enhance the fantasy.

I'm all for dreaming, we all do it, but make no mistake it is a dream. Just picture your self dreaming some more for that left seat for at least 3 years more likely 5 and six months before your slot comes up the company decides it needs 90 or so DECS right away. They will get them and you will realise that you are going to have to wait another 2 years for your command. Now I'm not saying that particular thing will happen but it is stuff like that which occurs here on a regular basis. Something like it WILL happen to you unless you are very lucky.

So if you want to come for a good shafting by all means do, but as so many others have said to you don't say we didn't warn you.

Also, it not such a bad thing talking with someone who is looking forward to coming, but when you and I are paired together on a night trip to exotic Hyderabad try to keep your b!tching and moaning to a minimum cause I'll be the one trying to get some Controlled rest.

7

[uncle buzz]

So what would you say are the 3 biggest problems at EK. Try to be honest, there seems to be a lot of unhappy people there. Is the pay below par? Pissed off because of DEC's, can see your point on that one (but it happens). Is Dubai a bad place to live and bring a family up? Are they really that unprofessional at EK? Working to much a problem and bad lay overs. It seem's like a really good deal if your given the chance to be accepted at EK. Tax free, houseing, interst free loan... what am I missing? Can some one enlighten me a little more about EK?

[Dale Hardale]

I'll I can say to you now Furb, is bring plenty of high quality vaseline for the certain shafting you'll enjoy after you arrive.

Regarding the English language, don't worry, over the last 2 years, management has shown a decided lack of effective communication anyway, so it won't be an issue for you.

Your "contract" is not worth the paper it's printed on and will be altered at the whim of management. They don't seem to understand the most basic western tenet that a contract is not a one sided document, but an agreement that requires both parties accord for any changes.

This was a GREAT company up to about the early 2000's - but from the arrival of CKN, it's been a slippery ride downhill at an ever increasing velocity, now at the very nadir of it's existence. :mad: :mad:

Look at the lack of any worthwhile awards EK has received recently. We used to be the absolute best and took great pride in our job. It is also a valid question to ask whether this company is now one of the so called "3rd world" carriers. This is the company you will be joining Furb.

As Airbus757 has said, please don't start bitching and moaning on an all night epic when you realise the mistake you have made.

Keep discovering and enjoy your "career" at Emirates.

[captainjohndo]

Uncle Buzz,

I will try to be as honest as I can, although I do not like the place so I see things half empty.
There is no such thing as tax free as there is no Santa Clause. Things in Dubai cost as much, if not more in some cases, as they cost in Europe. There is no Value Added Tax, but the price tag is the same. The exception to that will be petrol and groceries, although with the recent increase in prices in Super Markets we are not far behind them.... Going out for meals is on par with Europe and for sure more than North America...
Quality of life has dropped both because of extra cost, and because of constant construction and traffic jams. There are too many cars and not enough roads in Dubai and shall be the case for the forseable future. The beaches have been eroded, it becomes more and more difficult to find open space to enjoy the outdoors by the sea. You can of course go to beach clubs and hotels and swimming pools, but it is way too artificial for a constant day in and day out.....
Emirates has changed and is changing all the time, but unfortunately towards the worst. The UAE in general does not have laws that if broken results in any form of meaningful punishment to the offenders. It is the same in EK as we brake every rule, and every law and every regulation we have internaly and in the country, because even when we do get caught, the regulator being the owner does not punish us, or reprimand us (Verbal only). We fly more than the 900 hours per year regulation, and it does not matter, we fly more than the 18 hours maximum duty period (4 pilots) and it does not matter, we roster 2 pilots knowlingly that they will exceed they allowed duty period and it does not matter. If you refuse to brake, the law, or to bend it you are called in to the office and are reprimanded.
We fly mostly night flights, and since we fly a lot it is very strenuous and fatiguing for you. The only good thing about EK on this subject is that you are allowed to sleep on the flight deck (Controled Rest)
You are not treated nicely within the company by any one except Flight Operations. Staff travel is a huge problem. (You are not guaranteed a seat home even on your once a year confirmed annual leave ticket-I was offloaded not too long ago). You are considered slave labour once you join.
The airplanes are nice though, the marketing is great, and the PR department is second to none. EK is great when seen from the outside. It is not bad if you are unemployed, or if you want to come and get some experience and move on. It is not bad if you are coming from a small locost outfit, and it is not bad if you come from a country with security issues. It is a huge mistake to leave a company and a country with laws rules and regulations and join EK thinking that it is going to be similar. It is like going to Disney World seeing the Carabian, Latin America, and Europe and thinking that you have seen those countries..... At least in DW the employees are nice to you...

[EK Shadow]

Perception is reality, individual reality that is.

And then it goes somehow like this


Fantasy
Idealisation
Disappointment
AngerEK won a lot of awards at a time they were qualified as not meeting the minimum safety standards.

Power creates reality, you have only one life.....do not waist it

[Sempre Volando]

Why is it that the requirements for an FO with EK are so high? 4000hrs TT seems a lot compared with other airlines operating widebodies. Are EK getting enough suitably qualified applicants or will the requirements be lowered in the near future?
Cheers

[aceairman]

Hey guys, I'm really keen on EK but wonder about the reality vas a vis life in Dubai, and also the seemingly high resignation rate lately-presumably amongst the married crews (of which a lot has been said here). I believe their interviews are a tough call, so anyone know whether there's any chance of a second shot if the first interview is kinda dunked?? Also, how fast is a command upgrade really possible from joining? There seem to be quite a few disgruntled souls with broken promises on this issue! Appreciate some info on this. Cheers!

[FlyingCroc]

ruled by a bunch of south american style military pilots yes men :cool:

Great line (and so true furbpilot) :}

[faheel]

Acerairman, you obviously have not bothered even reading this thread let alone the countless others re life with Erats.

Do us all a favour and read them rather then ask the same old questions yet again.

Furbpilot, I see where you are coming from, in your case its just jumping from one frying pan into another, albeit one that pays more so best of luck to you, at least you know what you are about to do.

If you had 3000 glass command hours I would suggest you move further east, life is much better here than the sandpit, I spent 5 years in it :bored:

[zhu_tou]

Always wandered...
They are always pointing out that there are more than 100 nationalities working in EK.I'd like to know exact number (or %) of pilots of each nationality among the cockpit crew,and why most pilots are British and Australian?
thnks

[typhoonpilot]

Always wandered...
They are always pointing out that there are more than 100 nationalities working in EK.I'd like to know exact number (or %) of pilots of each nationality among the cockpit crew,and why most pilots are British and Australian?
thnks

Wind up alert :suspect:


TP

[zhu_tou]

:confused:

[puff m'call]

Hey Zhu tou, ****e for brains, the answer is easy.

The Brits are the best so there are more of us, and the Ausies think they are the best so there are fewer!!! Dooooooh! :mad: whit

And the rest.......well they just follow. Easy really.

[zhu_tou]

don't agree,but honest answer ;)

[harry the cod]

Quote

" little island"

Mmmm...............must be an American or Aussie who made that 'original' observation. :bored:

Harry

p.s I just hope you're not the latter because when it comes to quality of women from Australia......well, enough said, MATE !

[aceairman]

Hey Faheel, sorry I didn't mean to waste anyone's very valuable time here! I've read, fairly extensively, these threads and various others re life at "MRats" (as you put it) and DXB in general. I was just wondering whether EK gives a failed interviewee a second shot-or if indeed has done so in the past. The rest I'm fairly conversant with, at least from what I gather at this wonderful "expression of the free spirit" site. Cheers! :)

[Payscale]

Why do you want to know the breakdown of nationalities?

EK doesnt know. They sent out information about it the other day, but it was not correct.

Consider us the Foreign Legion of aviation.

[kingoftheslipstream]

Furbpilot,

Check out www.secretdubai.********.com for some non-pprune related stuff on Dubai.

Commuting from this place to anywhere is nigh impossible. Very tough. You will be exhausted.

I'm on the airbus fleet and have never felt so ****ty in my life. There is no "voluntary" overtime here - you just have to do it. You are paid for scheduled block time, not actual block time. So when you work over block, you are not getting paid for it. The company employs sharp pencils on its own block time calculations -so guess who wins? They clame they accurate, with only 20 % error, but that is crap. I am always working for free here. The suingle runway thing here is causing sugnificant delays and there are holds...
When you set the park brake at the end of the trip, the clock stops - now you working for free again. You still have to do paperwork and you are still responsible for the aircraft, pax etc but are doing it on your own time, you can't go anywhere because you have to wait for transport... this company has chiseled us down to the bone... I suppose the only consolation is that realistically it can't get much worse...

If you have family and kids it is very expensive to live here these days and getting worse.

Safety is not a high priority here for civil life. The roads are nasty and getting worse.

Be very careful, look beneath the surface - don't let the introductory stuff you saw on your assesment trip dazzle you too much.

Good luck with your decision.

kingoftheslipstream